OldTools Archive
Recent | Bios | FAQ |
267319 | Bill Ghio | 2018‑12‑10 | Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
I have several Buck Bros. crank-necked paring chisels. Just today noticed that one of them is marked "**CK BROS - ENGLAND”. It is difficult to read as it is double struck and there is a user name etched there as well. The handle is the typical Buck Bros. shape and is well marked like the others. However, it has always stood out as the bend of the crank-neck is a different angle than the others. Looking closely today I noticed the crank-neck is round in cross section whereas the others are rectangular. It is clearly of more recent manufacture based on overall fine condition, no image of a Buck, and a copper ferrule at the tang. Was there a period when Buck Bros. made chisels in England? In looking at various websites and some past list discussions I don’t find references to England. Bill |
|||
267329 | Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> | 2018‑12‑11 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 4:43 PM Bill Ghio wrote: > Was there a period when Buck Bros. made chisels in England? > There are enough examples out there to show that they definitely did have some of their chisels made in England. As you said, it seems like a much later period, based on the look of the handles and the cheap ferrules. And it seems that only carving tools and the crank-neck chisels and gouges were made in England (although I could be wrong about this). The company was owned by Buck descendants until 1948, and then changed hands again in 1951 (and I'm not sure who owns it now). John Kebabian wrote a nice short history of the Buck Brothers in the EAIA Chronicle in 1972. He mentions that the manager who took over in 1948 was still running the company in 1972. He has no mention of any chisels being made in England and I haven't seen any information on this in my research (although I am realizing I did this research 10-15 years ago[!] so my memory is hazy). But my guess is that the corporate bean counters decided it was cheaper to farm out the production of the more specialized tools that sold in smaller quantities. The Buck carving tools are from the English tradition (rather than continental styles) and so this makes sense as there were still tool manufacturers in Sheffield making carving tools. Brian Welch still in central Massachusetts, hoping it doesn't take another 10-15 years to get back to finishing research on central Mass toolmakers, but not holding my breath either |
|||
267331 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑12‑11 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
I recently saw a set of BB chisels with the Buck symbol at either Blowe’s or Home Cheapo - they are next to each other here (as in most places) and it depends on which way I am driving on the road as to which I patronize, although Blowe’s se3ms much more friendly. Maybe it’s that bright orange color. The chisels seemed plenty cheap, but then the cheap Hungarian chisels (Novex??) are very very popular on some of the forums, available at the German grocery store Aldi. Ed Minch |
|||
267332 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2018‑12‑11 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
Veering slightly off-topic maybe. Does anyone know if the Buck in ‘Buck & Hickman’ is related? Surely not coincidence. A sone sent to the colonies to earn his fortune? B&H used to publish a most wondrous catalogue with illustrations. Still on the 2nd hand market - leaf through if you have chance to see one. The company has been bought and sold, but I see the name almost still exists. The website has lost It’s ‘history of the Co. page though. Richard Wilson The galoot from Yorkshire - home of Sheffield, once noteworthy for puddling iron into steel… |
|||
267337 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑12‑13 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 8:35 AM yorkshireman@y... < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: > Veering slightly off-topic maybe. Does anyone know if the Buck in ‘Buck & > Hickman’ is related? Surely not coincidence. A son sent to the colonies > to earn his fortune? > Poking about in other works that Google suggested elsewhere, it seems possible. According to this https://www.handplane.com/65/buck-hickman-1935-catalog/ There were three Buck sons and a daughter (early 19th Century) George Joseph Matthew Ann (Married to John Roe Hickman) Then some work Brian mentioned listed the three Buck Bros as being descended as follows. http://brianwelch.galootcentral.com/buck/index.htm B 1746 - Joseph Buck (i) (Grampa) B 1801 Joseph Buck (ii) (Dad) He had three sons, the "Buck Bros" B 1826 John B 1829 Charles B 1831 Richard Taylor So its possible that the Joseph above with Charles and Matthew and Ann was one of the 2 Josephs that sired the Buck Bros. I have not found anything that confirmed it, and Joseph was a pretty common name back then I fear. I can find no documentation supporting this, so its a wild guess. The first link lists names, but not birth dates or locations, so I am running into hurdles for the time being. M goodman is at home (only v2) Enough screwing off, gotta get back to work. -- Kirk Eppler in HMB, trying to get the act together for the final sprint to Christmas. Galootaclaus is sent, and received, so the rest is gravy. |
|||
267339 | Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> | 2018‑12‑14 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 10:35 AM Charles Driggs wrote: > > I have a couple dozen Buck carving gouges, including perhaps three marked > “C Buck England” and another two or three marked “Buck England”. The > rest are marked “Buck Brothers”. I had noticed that the English -made > tools are much more in the style of Herring and Addis gouges than those > marked with the “Brothers” stamp. The latter are less relieved in the > shank, thus less able to operate in tight spaces. > > I suspected all along that the England stamped tools were all Charles Buck > output if only because of the fundamentally similar shape and style common > to the best carving tools produced there. Charles Buck probably didn’t > move his business very often, but his toolmakers may have apprenticed with > and worked for several different toolmaking operations in their lifetimes. All of the brothers Buck (John, Charles and Richard T, aka R.T.) were born in England and did their apprenticeships there and came to the US when the were around 20. They definitely had close family connections to England and returned there fairly often as far as I can tell. An 1874 article on Buck Bros. in Manufacturer and Builder mentions that "Quite a number of Englishmen are employed, expressly imported for special kinds of work." Also, up until at least 1900 both Charles Buck and Buck Bros. claim to use the best English steel for their tools. Charles Buck broke off from his brother RT in 1872 to form the Charles Buck Edge Tool Company. R.T. died in 1893 and his son-in-law, William Proctor, who had long worked for Buck Bros. took over. Proctor was himself born in Sheffield. So there was definitely a strong connection to Sheffield. BUT, I don't think that any Buck Bros. or Charles Buck tools were manufactured in England during their lifetime. That same 1874 article on Buck Bros. in Manufacturer and Builder contains the following section: "The works have from the beginning been under the personal supervision of Mr. R.T. Buck, who sees that the material and workmanship are of the best, and the important feature of the temper is carefully attended to, what all mechanics know how to appreciate. Also that the goods are properly shipped, by which precaution none have ever been lost, or complaints made; while the late panic has exceptionally not affected the operation of this concern. One of the firm was in England last summer, more on a vacation than for any business purpose, yet with his eyes open to see and learn what kind of tools were in the market. He took a few socket firmers as samples with him, and showed them to some of the most noted London hardware houses. They admired the tools very much, but said they were too good for their customers, their socket chisels and gouges being very coarse, clumsy tools, such as their fathers' used 50 years ago. Mr. John Wilson, who was sent by the Board of Trade of Sheffield to report on the cutlery and tools at Vienna, saw the samples, and in his official report says, "I have seen American [Buck Bros.] edge tools equal to any in the world." Mr. Buck visited several of the most famous edge tool factories in Sheffield, and found little, except to congratulate himself that he was not behind the best concerns in Sheffield, either for the materials used or for the workmanship." Doesn't seem like R.T. would be having someone in England making his tools when he had a huge beautiful factory built in 1878 with the capacity to make some of the best tools in the world. A 1900 Iron Age ad for Charles Buck Edge Tools ( http://brianwelch.galootcentral.com/buck/cb1900ad4.jpg) makes the claim, "I MAKE A SPECIALTY OF CARVING TOOLS." I don't think Charles Buck when he was still running the company would pay someone in England to manufacture his tools or would need to do so. Charles Buck died in 1905, so up until 1905, I don't think they sold any tools manufactured anywhere other than Millbury, MA. The Charles Buck Edge Tool Company continued for another ten years until 1905 when William Proctor/Buck Bros. bought them out and folded them back into Buck Bros. So if there were Charles Buck tools manufactured in England, I'm guessing that would have happened between 1905 and 1915. At some point there was a fire that destroyed the main part of the Buck Bros. factory (I haven't found that date yet). If I had to bet, I'm guessing that would be the cause of outsourcing the production of more specialized tools. That's all I've got for now. Brian |
|||
267340 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2018‑12‑14 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
Brian comes up yet more tantalising suggestion of a transa atlantic family relationship... I’d not expect Buck Brothers tools to have been made in England, but it still seems that an uncle, cousin, or wjhatever, could have retained an interest over here, whilst the young ‘uns went adventuring to the New World to make their fortunes. Lots of opportunity in a new country for tool makers. Perhaps the census returns would help? Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot. |
|||
267341 | Anthony Seo | 2018‑12‑14 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
On 12/11/2018 9:10 AM, Brian Welch wrote: > On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 4:43 PM Bill Ghio wrote: > >> Was there a period when Buck Bros. made chisels in England? >> > There are enough examples out there to show that they definitely did have > some of their chisels made in England. For what it's worth, most of what I have seen of Buck Bros chisels that were made in England look to be late 1950's to 1960's as to vintage. That's based on the styles and finish of the blades and the handles as well. I've had carving tools, a couple of smaller bench chisels, and just put a patternmaker's chisel into play, all of English vintage. My guess would be is that there came a time when it was better financially for the company to import chisels from there rather than to keep producing them here. Tony (where we are looking at a full weekend of rain but this time of year it's better to be wet than to be white..) -- Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic Old River Hard Goods http://oldetoolshop.com/ |
|||
267342 | "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> | 2018‑12‑14 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
Galoots, I wonder if there could have been a connection through Buck & Ryan, London based tool merchants established in 1824? Buck & Ryan are probably best known to us for selling Norris planes. Marv Paisner Kootenay Lake, BC -----Original Message----- From: yorkshireman@y... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Buck Bros. Made in England?? Brian comes up yet more tantalising suggestion of a transa atlantic family relationship... I’d not expect Buck Brothers tools to have been made in England, but it still seems that an uncle, cousin, or wjhatever, could have retained an interest over here, whilst the young ‘uns went adventuring to the New World to make their fortunes. Lots of opportunity in a new country for tool makers. Perhaps the census returns would help? Richard Wilson Yorkshireman galoot. > On 14 Dec 2018, at 15:47, Brian Welch |
|||
267344 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2018‑12‑14 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 10:33 AM Marvin Paisner |
|||
267346 | Thomas Conroy | 2018‑12‑15 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
Tony Seo wrote: "For what it's worth, most of what I have seen of Buck Bros chisels that were made in England look to be late 1950's to 1960's as to vintage.? That's based on the styles and finish of the blades and the handles as well....My guess would be is that there came a time when it was better financially for the company to import chisels from there rather than to keep producing them here." I too would lean towaard a slightly later date, for a different reason. "Country-of-origin" marking was clearly not a legal requirement in the nineteenth century. The earliest trace I can find (in Wikipedia) for American law is in the Smoot-Hawley Tarriff Act of 1930. That is close enough to my impression, which was that country-of-origin marks first appear around the 1920s. In the 1930s, I doubt Buck was importing chisels; struggling not to lay off skilled staff is more likely. After WWII seems a reasonable guess to me. Tom Conroy |
|||
267348 | Bill Ghio | 2018‑12‑15 | Re: Buck Bros. Made in England?? |
Sent from my iPad > On Dec 14, 2018, at 7:29 PM, Thomas Conroy |
|||
Recent | Bios | FAQ |