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267319 Bill Ghio 2018‑12‑10 Buck Bros. Made in England??
I have several Buck Bros. crank-necked paring chisels. Just today noticed that
one of them is marked "**CK BROS - ENGLAND”. It is difficult to read as it is
double struck and there is a user name etched there as well. The handle is the
typical Buck Bros. shape and is well marked like the others. However, it has
always stood out as the bend of the crank-neck is a different angle than the
others. Looking closely today I noticed the crank-neck is round in cross section
whereas the others are rectangular. It is clearly of more recent manufacture
based on overall fine condition, no image of a Buck, and a copper ferrule at the
tang.

Was there a period when Buck Bros. made chisels in England? In looking at
various websites and some past list discussions I don’t find references to
England.

Bill
267329 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2018‑12‑11 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 4:43 PM Bill Ghio wrote:

> Was there a period when Buck Bros. made chisels in England?
>

There are enough examples out there to show that they definitely did have
some of their chisels made in England.  As you said, it seems like a much
later period, based on the look of the handles and the cheap ferrules.  And
it seems that only carving tools and the crank-neck chisels and gouges were
made in England (although I could be wrong about this).

The company was owned by Buck descendants until 1948, and then changed
hands again in 1951 (and I'm not sure who owns it now). John Kebabian wrote
a nice short history of the Buck Brothers in the EAIA Chronicle in 1972.
He mentions that the manager who took over in 1948 was still running the
company in 1972. He has no mention of any chisels being made in England and
I haven't seen any information on this in my research (although I am
realizing I did this research 10-15 years ago[!] so my memory is hazy). But
my guess is that the corporate bean counters decided it was cheaper to farm
out the production of the more specialized tools that sold in smaller
quantities. The Buck carving tools are from the English tradition (rather
than continental styles) and so this makes sense as there were still tool
manufacturers in Sheffield making carving tools.

Brian Welch
still in central Massachusetts, hoping it doesn't take another 10-15 years
to get back to finishing research on central Mass toolmakers, but not
holding my breath either
267331 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑12‑11 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
I recently saw a set of BB chisels with the Buck symbol at either Blowe’s or
Home Cheapo - they are next to each other here (as in most places) and it
depends on which way I am driving on the road as to which I patronize, although
Blowe’s se3ms much more friendly.  Maybe it’s that bright orange color.  The
chisels seemed plenty cheap, but then the cheap  Hungarian chisels (Novex??) are
very very popular on some of the forums, available at the German grocery store
Aldi.


Ed Minch
267332 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2018‑12‑11 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
Veering slightly off-topic maybe. Does anyone know if the Buck in ‘Buck &
Hickman’  is related?  Surely not coincidence.  A sone sent to the colonies to
earn his fortune?

B&H used to publish a most wondrous catalogue with illustrations.  Still on the
2nd hand market - leaf through if you have chance to see one.

The company has been bought and sold, but I see the name almost still exists.
The website has lost It’s ‘history of the Co.  page though.


Richard Wilson
The galoot from Yorkshire - home of Sheffield, once noteworthy for puddling iron
into steel…
267337 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑12‑13 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 8:35 AM yorkshireman@y... <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:

> Veering slightly off-topic maybe. Does anyone know if the Buck in ‘Buck &
> Hickman’  is related?  Surely not coincidence.  A son sent to the colonies
> to earn his fortune?
>

Poking about in other works that Google suggested elsewhere, it seems
possible.

According to this
https://www.handplane.com/65/buck-hickman-1935-catalog/

There were three Buck sons and a daughter (early 19th Century)
George
Joseph
Matthew
Ann (Married to John Roe Hickman)

Then some work Brian mentioned listed the three Buck Bros as being
descended as follows.

http://brianwelch.galootcentral.com/buck/index.htm

B 1746 - Joseph Buck (i) (Grampa)
B 1801 Joseph Buck (ii) (Dad)
He had three sons, the "Buck Bros"
B 1826 John
B 1829 Charles
B 1831 Richard Taylor

So its possible that the Joseph above with Charles and Matthew and Ann was
one of the 2 Josephs that sired the Buck Bros.  I have not found anything
that confirmed it, and Joseph was a pretty common name back then I fear.

I can find no documentation supporting this, so its a wild guess.  The
first link lists names, but not birth dates or locations, so I am running
into hurdles for the time being.  M goodman is at home (only v2)

Enough screwing off, gotta get back to work.


-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, trying to get the act together for the final sprint to
Christmas.  Galootaclaus is sent, and received, so the rest is gravy.
267339 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2018‑12‑14 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 10:35 AM Charles Driggs wrote:

>
> I have a couple dozen Buck carving gouges, including perhaps three marked
> “C Buck  England”  and another two or three marked “Buck England”.  The
> rest are marked “Buck Brothers”.  I had noticed that the English -made
> tools are much more in the style of Herring and Addis gouges than those
> marked with the “Brothers” stamp.  The latter are less relieved in the
> shank, thus less able to operate in tight spaces.
>
> I suspected all along that the England stamped tools were all Charles Buck
> output if only because of the fundamentally similar shape and style common
> to the best carving tools produced there.  Charles Buck probably didn’t
> move his business very often, but his toolmakers may have apprenticed with
> and worked for several different toolmaking operations in their lifetimes.


All of the brothers Buck (John, Charles and Richard T, aka R.T.) were born
in England and did their apprenticeships there and came to the US when the
were around 20. They definitely had close family connections to England and
returned there fairly often as far as I can tell.

An 1874 article on Buck Bros. in Manufacturer and Builder mentions that
"Quite a number of Englishmen are employed, expressly imported for special
kinds of work." Also, up until at least 1900 both Charles Buck and Buck
Bros. claim to use the best English steel for their tools.

Charles Buck broke off from his brother RT in 1872 to form the Charles Buck
Edge Tool Company. R.T. died in 1893 and his son-in-law, William Proctor,
who had long worked for Buck Bros. took over. Proctor was himself born in
Sheffield. So there was definitely a strong connection to Sheffield.

BUT, I don't think that any Buck Bros. or Charles Buck tools were
manufactured in England during their lifetime. That same 1874 article on
Buck Bros. in Manufacturer and Builder contains the following section:

     "The works have from the beginning been under the personal supervision
of Mr. R.T. Buck, who sees that the material and workmanship are of the
best, and the important feature of the temper is carefully attended to,
what all mechanics know how to appreciate. Also that the goods are properly
shipped, by which precaution none have ever been lost, or complaints made;
while the late panic has exceptionally not affected the operation of this
concern.
     One of the firm was in England last summer, more on a vacation than
for any business purpose, yet with his eyes open to see and learn what kind
of tools were in the market. He took a few socket firmers as samples with
him, and showed them to some of the most noted London hardware houses. They
admired the tools very much, but said they were too good for their
customers, their socket chisels and gouges being very coarse, clumsy tools,
such as their fathers' used 50 years ago. Mr. John Wilson, who was sent by
the Board of Trade of Sheffield to report on the cutlery and tools at
Vienna, saw the samples, and in his official report says, "I have seen
American  [Buck Bros.] edge tools equal to any in the world." Mr. Buck
visited several of the most famous edge tool factories in Sheffield, and
found little, except to congratulate himself that he was not behind the
best concerns in Sheffield, either for the materials used or for the
workmanship."

Doesn't seem like R.T. would be having someone in England making his tools
when he had a huge beautiful factory built in 1878 with the capacity to
make some of the best tools in the world.

A 1900 Iron Age ad for Charles Buck Edge Tools (
http://brianwelch.galootcentral.com/buck/cb1900ad4.jpg) makes the claim, "I
MAKE A SPECIALTY OF CARVING TOOLS." I don't think Charles Buck when he was
still running the company would pay someone in England to manufacture his
tools or would need to do so. Charles Buck died in 1905, so up until 1905,
I don't think they sold any tools manufactured anywhere other than
Millbury, MA.

The Charles Buck Edge Tool Company continued for another ten years until
1905 when William Proctor/Buck Bros. bought them out and folded them back
into Buck Bros.

So if there were Charles Buck tools manufactured in England, I'm guessing
that would have happened between 1905 and 1915.

At some point there was a fire that destroyed the main part of the Buck
Bros. factory (I haven't found that date yet). If I had to bet, I'm
guessing that would be the cause of outsourcing the production of more
specialized tools.

That's all I've got for now.

Brian
267340 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2018‑12‑14 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
Brian comes up yet more tantalising suggestion of a transa atlantic family
relationship...

I’d not expect Buck Brothers tools to have been made in England, but it still
seems that an uncle, cousin, or wjhatever, could have retained an interest over
here, whilst the young ‘uns went adventuring to the New World to make their
fortunes.  Lots of opportunity in a new country for tool makers.   Perhaps the
census returns would help?


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman galoot.
267341 Anthony Seo 2018‑12‑14 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
On 12/11/2018 9:10 AM, Brian Welch wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 4:43 PM Bill Ghio wrote:
>
>> Was there a period when Buck Bros. made chisels in England?
>>
> There are enough examples out there to show that they definitely did have
> some of their chisels made in England.

For what it's worth, most of what I have seen of Buck Bros chisels that 
were made in England look to be late 1950's to 1960's as to vintage.  
That's based on the styles and finish of the blades and the handles as 
well.  I've had carving tools, a couple of smaller bench chisels, and 
just put a patternmaker's chisel into play, all of English vintage.  My 
guess would be is that there came a time when it was better financially 
for the company to import chisels from there rather than to keep 
producing them here.

Tony (where we are looking at a full weekend of rain but this time of 
year it's better to be wet than to be white..)

-- 

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
Old River Hard Goods
http://oldetoolshop.com/
267342 "Marvin Paisner" <paisners@s...> 2018‑12‑14 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
Galoots,

I wonder if there could have been a connection through Buck & Ryan, London 
based tool merchants established in 1824?

Buck & Ryan are probably best known to us for selling Norris planes.


Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC



-----Original Message----- 
From: yorkshireman@y...

Subject: Re: [OldTools] Buck Bros. Made in England??

Brian comes up yet more tantalising suggestion of a transa atlantic family 
relationship...

I’d not expect Buck Brothers tools to have been made in England, but it 
still seems that an uncle, cousin, or wjhatever, could have retained an 
interest over here, whilst the young ‘uns went adventuring to the New World 
to make their fortunes.  Lots of opportunity in a new country for tool 
makers.   Perhaps the census returns would help?


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman galoot.


> On 14 Dec 2018, at 15:47, Brian Welch  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 10:35 AM Charles Driggs wrote:
>
>>
>> I have a couple dozen Buck carving gouges, including perhaps three marked
>> “C Buck  England”  and another two or three marked “Buck England”.  The
>> rest are marked “Buck Brothers”. 


---
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267344 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑12‑14 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 10:33 AM Marvin Paisner  wrote:

>
> I wonder if there could have been a connection through Buck & Ryan, London
> based tool merchants established in 1824?
>

Buck & Ryan was founded in 1824 by Mr R Nelson, as a planemaker.
Sold to George Henry Buck in 1852
1870 George Ryan bought in to the biz
1898 G Buck died, G Ryan kept control til 1983

1919 was first recording of using Buck & Ryan
1926 G Ryan died, and his sons George, Ernie, Dick, Harry and Will took over

The George could match my scenario names from earlier, but again, no birth
dates yet.

From
https://3994-uk.all.biz/
-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA, were a bit of rain has arrived.
Principal Engineer
PP&TD
eppler.kirk@g...
650 225-3911
267346 Thomas Conroy 2018‑12‑15 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
Tony Seo wrote:
"For what it's worth, most of what I have seen of Buck Bros chisels that 
were made in England look to be late 1950's to 1960's as to vintage.? 
That's based on the styles and finish of the blades and the handles as 
well....My guess would be is that there came a time when it was better
financially
for the company to import chisels from there rather than to keep 
producing them here."


I too would lean towaard a slightly later date, for a different reason.
"Country-of-origin" marking was clearly not a legal requirement in the
nineteenth century. The earliest trace I can find (in Wikipedia) for American
law is in the Smoot-Hawley Tarriff Act of 1930. That is close enough to my
impression, which was that country-of-origin marks first appear around the
1920s. In the 1930s, I doubt Buck was importing chisels; struggling not to lay
off skilled staff is more likely. After WWII seems a reasonable guess to me.

Tom Conroy
267348 Bill Ghio 2018‑12‑15 Re: Buck Bros. Made in England??
Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 14, 2018, at 7:29 PM, Thomas Conroy  wrote:
> 
> Tony Seo wrote:
> "For what it's worth, most of what I have seen of Buck Bros chisels that 
> were made in England look to be late 1950's to 1960's as to vintage.? 
> That's based on the styles and finish of the blades and the handles as 
> well....My guess would be is that there came a time when it was better
financially
> for the company to import chisels from there rather than to keep 
> producing them here."
> 
> 
> I too would lean towaard a slightly later date, for a different reason.
"Country-of-origin" marking was clearly not a legal requirement in the
nineteenth century. The earliest trace I can find (in Wikipedia) for American
law is in the Smoot-Hawley Tarriff Act of 1930. That is close enough to my
impression, which was that country-of-origin marks first appear around the
1920s. In the 1930s, I doubt Buck was importing chisels; struggling not to lay
off skilled staff is more likely. After WWII seems a reasonable guess to me.
> 

I have no doubt this is very late production since it is so lacking in patina
and full length.

Bill

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