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267097 RH <rhhutchins@h...> 2018‑11‑15 Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
The rountuit showed up about an hour ago; so I got out some beeswax 
cakes, the single burner butane stove, some BLO and some paint thinner 
(never placed anywhere near the stove).  First I set the flame as low as 
it would go and put the cakes of beeswax in a 14 oz tomato can that had 
been through the dishwasher.  It melted in just a few minutes to a nice, 
clear golden brown.

I used a stick to measure the depth of the liquid wax then marked out 
that distance 2 more times and drew rings with a marker on the stick.  I 
poured in the BLO to reach the first ring followed immediately by the 
paint thinner to the second ring giving me roughly equal amounts of the 
three magic ingredients.  I stirred and stirred and stirred some more.  
The liquid cooled quickly. Some of the beeswax clumped into smallish 
balls and ring of beeswax formed above the surface where stirring had 
caused the liquid to ride up the cold sides of the can.

I think I got the magic potion - maybe Scott or whomever told us about 
this brew - can tell me if I'm wrong.

What I'd like to know is whether or not the clumping of the wax is 
normal and what I might do to move the emulsion level higher. Our range 
top has a warming center that has 3 or 4 levels of heating.  I made sure 
the can was not leaking and placed it on the warming area.  Will further 
heating and stirring improve consistency.  I will continue to stir it in 
hopes of getting a consistent emulsion without clumps of wax.  Am I 
overly ambitious here?

Please advise this aged neophyte.  I have a couple dozen yard and garden 
tools with metal ends and wooden handles that I want to use this elixir 
upon.  Do I need to try to remove most or all of the rust before 
applying to the steel bits?  After applying with rags or paper towels, 
should I be concerned about them spontaneously combusting?  I plan to 
put them jars or cans of water then spreading them out to dry on the 
next warm sunny day.

Thanks for any help . . .

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX
267099 Anthony Seo 2018‑11‑15 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
On 11/15/2018 4:44 PM, RH wrote:
> The rountuit showed up about an hour ago; so I got out some beeswax 
> cakes, the single burner butane stove, some BLO and some paint thinner 
> (never placed anywhere near the stove).  First I set the flame as low 
> as it would go and put the cakes of beeswax in a 14 oz tomato can that 
> had been through the dishwasher.  It melted in just a few minutes to a 
> nice, clear golden brown.
>
> I used a stick to measure the depth of the liquid wax then marked out 
> that distance 2 more times and drew rings with a marker on the stick.  
> I poured in the BLO to reach the first ring followed immediately by 
> the paint thinner to the second ring giving me roughly equal amounts 
> of the three magic ingredients.

That is where you made your mistake.  You melt the beeswax, remove from 
the heat, add the linseed oil, reheat carefully until clear, remove from 
the heat and then add the thinner.  Otherwise the linseed oil will cause 
the wax to clump like you experienced.

I would just add a little more thinner, mix it good, cover it up and let 
it set over night.

I just made a batch here and it came out just dandy.

http://oldetoolshop.com/jointer/formula.html

Tony (where the snow is a falling and the roads are full of flakes, 
mainly behind the wheel!!)

-- 

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
Old River Hard Goods
http://oldetoolshop.com/
267100 RH <rhhutchins@h...> 2018‑11‑15 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Hi Tony.  Thanks for the info.  My search fu is so bad I couldn't find 
the post with the instructions.  I only remembered the 3 ingredients in 
equal amounts.

My apologies if I mistakenly gave credit for this elixir.  At my age I 
don't remember to remember any more.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX
267101 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2018‑11‑16 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Bob, I have often found that you can just add the turpentine (I use it
rather than thinner), mix in, then be sure to stir every time you use it.
If there's enough turps relative to the beeswax it'll stay unclumped.

That said, I've never done it on the stove.  I usually shave a measured
amount of wax into a quart jar, add the turps to make the wax purley
dissolved (letting it sit overnight is required), then add half that total
amount of blo, stir like hell for a while, and suddenly an English
facsimile of you is my mother's brother.

If it ever gets too thick, or clumps, I add a bit more turps.  The stuff
works a treat cleaning just about any tool wood.  I let it soak in for a
while on the (say) plane handle, then use 0000 steel wool to clean it up.
Wipe that gunge off with a clean rag, buff, and again, you're golden.

Bill
Felton, CA
just say it's probably time I mixed more of that stuff, I'm down to the
dregs of a quart jar.
267102 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑16 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I usually skip the heat (I keep my shop at about 60degrees F). Shred the beeswax
(cheese graters are good for this), add the solvent of choice (I like turp).
shake. come back later, and shake again. repeat until beeswax is dissolved. Add
oil of choice (I've used BLO and Tung). shake again. If your shop is cool (not
warm), it will separate out into a thick syrup at the bottom, and a thinner top
layer. A simple shake before use mixes it all back up. If your shop is cold, the
bottom syrup layer will solidify, and you'll have to warm it up before using it.

-J
267103 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2018‑11‑16 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
james, i tried a cheese grater and found that using a bar lemon zester
(stainless steel, four cutting holes for shred, larger single hole for a
twist) works better.  less clogging, finer shreds.

https://www.barproducts.com/zester-rosle# is the one i use.

bill
felton, ca
267104 RH <rhhutchins@h...> 2018‑11‑16 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
After an hour on the glass range top warming center on a setting of 3, 
the emulsion liquefied and turned clear . . .  nary a lump. I poured it 
into an old pickle jar and left it on the counter where this morning 
found it the color and consistency of honey butter.

There is no open flame or even a hot element not covered by glass on our 
range top.  The warming area doesn't get sufficiently hot to ignite even 
volatile liquids like alcohol; so I feel like my procedure was safe.

If there is another occasion to mix a batch, I'll try the cold approach.

Thanks for all the input.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX
267105 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2018‑11‑17 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
What is this magic concoction you all speak of?
267106 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑11‑17 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Galoot aftershave.

A wonderful thing to use for any wooden tool handle, or totally wood tool.
Use Tony's recipe.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 6:56 PM Dan Beck  wrote:

> What is this magic concoction you all speak of?
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 2018, at 4:00 PM, oldtools-request@s... wrote:
> >
> > Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler
Principal Engineer
PP&TD
eppler.kirk@g...
650 225-3911
267108 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2018‑11‑17 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Anyone in this parish tried Alfie Shine?

Cheers,
John

“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

On Nov 16, 2018, at 9:56 PM, Dan Beck mailto:drumsandbacon@g...">mailto:drumsandbacon@g...>> wrote:

What is this magic concoction you all speak of?


On Nov 16, 2018, at 4:00 PM, oldtools-request@s...<mailto:oldtools-
request@s...">mailto:oldtools-request@s...> wrote:

Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
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OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
267109 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑17 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
looks cool. I think pretty much anything that breaks it up into small bits with
lots of surface area would work.
-j
267110 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑17 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
simple wood finish/wax. equal parts beeswax (or throw in some carnuba for a
harder wax), oil, and a solvent.

liquid (more or less) at room temp, but you can make a paste by increasing wax
or decreasing oil/solvent.

to use (my methods):
on raw wood - soak surface. let it stand wet for 10-15 minutes, wipe to "almost
dry". let sit overnight, repeat.

on finished wood (as a wax) - wipe on with a rag. leave a very thin layer. let
it sit for a bit, then wipe dry with a clean cloth.

-j
267111 RH <rhhutchins@h...> 2018‑11‑17 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Some unanswered questions about the emulsion.

On 11/15/2018 3:44 PM, RH wrote:
> Do I need to try to remove most or all of the rust before applying to 
> the steel bits? 

After applying with rags or paper towels, should I be concerned about 
them spontaneously combusting?

I plan to put them jars or cans of water then spreading them out to dry 
on the next warm sunny day.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX
267113 "Adam R. Maxwell via OldTools" <oldtools@s...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
> On Nov 16, 2018, at 19:54 , Kirk Eppler  wrote:
> 
> Galoot aftershave.

I thought Galoot aftershave was WD-40? My favorite oilstone elixir.

Adam, finally catching up on  years of deferred sharpening
of planes, chisels, and saws in Benton City, WA.
267114 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I apply w a scotchbrite pad, and then leave it outside on the driveway to
dry before disposal.

As others have said, spontaneous combustion is real, and to be feared.

Kirk in HMB, where the smoke is still to be feared.
267115 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I've never has a problem. Over the years I've used rags, paper towels, steel
wool, scotch brites, and pretty much anything that will carry the finish to
where I want it.

I usually try to be sure that whatever I used has decent air circulation after
use - until it has polymerized anyway. But sometimes it just ends up wadded up
in the trash.

maybe I've just been lucky, and I certainly wouldn't advise being careless, but
in my experience, the risk of spontaneous combustion is pretty low, so I guess
its a matter of your personal risk aversion....

-J
267116 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Its about volume.
  Spontaneous combustion in a fairly dry rag is pretty dim.
If you go crazy and soppy soak a bedsheet (big rag) with gushing amounts 
of oil?
Then leave it wadded up on the edge of the porch?

My good friend of almost 50 years just lost his home and barn/shop.

do not screw around
Personally I do not use a rag at all.
A few drops applied with my bare hands saves on oil and danger both.
yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
267117 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
On 2018-11-18 9:48 AM, James DUPRIE wrote:
> I guess its a matter of your personal risk aversion....
>
> -J

Perhaps. But really, so little effort is needed to avoid the risk of 
catastrophe. To my mind, it's a no-brainer, like buying a $2 lottery 
ticket on a multi-million dollar prize. Sure the odds against may be 
tremendous, but  where's the harm? In summer, I hang oily rags on some 
chain link fence, then bin them in the alley once dry. In winter I dunk 
them in a sealer of water which I keep handy to the bench, then spread 
them on snow til frozen, and eventually bin.

FWIW

Don

-- 
Let's make Norheim great again. ( Norsemen )

I am not bald. I have a tall face. ( Upstart Crow )

I am not going bald. I have very low eyebrows. ( Upstart Crow )

I am not going bloody bald. I have a very big brain. ( Upstart Crow )
267118 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I have been keeping a 4 square inch piece of sock in the Ragu jar that the 50/50
BLO and mineral spirits is in. A pair of kitchen tongs makes a convenient
retriever and handle.
I keep the cap closed for storage.
Am I running a risk?
267119 <gtgrouch@r...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I toss my used rags in the wood stove.  Wet/dry, summer/winter, in use/not in
use doesn't matter.

Never had a fire light itself yet, but there's always a first time!

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
. . . where we have a light persistent snow cover before Thanksgiving, which is
unusual.

---- Don Schwartz  wrote: 

=============
On 2018-11-18 9:48 AM, James DUPRIE wrote:
> I guess its a matter of your personal risk aversion....
>
> -J

Perhaps. But really, so little effort is needed to avoid the risk of 
catastrophe. To my mind, it's a no-brainer, like buying a $2 lottery 
ticket on a multi-million dollar prize. Sure the odds against may be 
tremendous, but  where's the harm? In summer, I hang oily rags on some 
chain link fence, then bin them in the alley once dry. In winter I dunk 
them in a sealer of water which I keep handy to the bench, then spread 
them on snow til frozen, and eventually bin.

FWIW

Don

-- 
Let's make Norheim great again. ( Norsemen )

I am not bald. I have a tall face. ( Upstart Crow )

I am not going bald. I have very low eyebrows. ( Upstart Crow )

I am not going bloody bald. I have a very big brain. ( Upstart Crow )

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
267120 Charles Driggs 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
> 
> I apply w a scotchbrite pad, and then leave it outside on the driveway to
> dry before disposal.
> 
> As others have said, spontaneous combustion is real, and to be feared.
> 
> Kirk in HMB, where the smoke is still to be feared.


Yes, spontaneous combustion risk is real, but it can be avoided easily enough —

I keep a piece of cut off T-shirt submerged in the mix as an applicator, and the
mix & applicator are closed up and stored at all times inside a glass flip-top
storage jar that incorporates a rubber gasket seal and wire cam-lock closure.
Similar to the old Ball canning jars, but with a simpler wire closure mechanism.

My jars are made by either ‘Fido’ or ‘Luminarc’, and they have worked very
nicely for a good 15 years, maybe more.  I also substitute terps for the paint
thinner, but the terps does tend to slowly escape through the seal over time.
That has to be topped up periodically  — maybe twice a year — to re-liquefy the
mix before use.  I suppose oxygen might also manage to diffuse through the seal
into the jar if the partial pressures are unequal, but I can’t visualize what
would cause that as the mix isn’t going to oxidize while sealed.  Whatever
migration happens, it sure isn’t going to be very quickly or any substantial
quantity until the jar is opened for use, and where you choose to open it and
use it is up to you.

The results with Tony’s mix are always the soft feel and cleaner look of an old
tool, accomplished without destroying the patina.

Charlie
267123 Darrell & Kathy <larchmont@s...> 2018‑11‑18 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
On 11/17/2018 7:24 AM, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) wrote:

> Anyone in this parish tried Alfie Shine?

I have not, but I see a lot of hype and discussion about the stuff
on other parts of the interwebs.  Near as I can tell, it's just paste
wax, isn't it?  When I eventually run out of Johnson's paste wax
and run out of raw materials for the DIY version discussed in
this thread, I *might* consider Alfie Shine, if it's cheaper than
buying more of those raw materials...


-- 
Darrell LaRue
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
267127 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑11‑19 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I attended a finishing lecture put on by Don Williams (retired Smithsonian
finishes curator, Jeff).  He has long been known as the shellac guy, but what he
said was most furniture of the 18th century was treated with plain wax.  The
shellac and varnish finishes we see today on utilitarian antiques was probably
put on later.  So anybody use just wax?

Ed Minch
267129 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑11‑19 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
On 2018-11-18 5:19 PM, Ed Minch wrote:
> I attended a finishing lecture put on by Don Williams (retired Smithsonian
finishes curator, Jeff).  He has long been known as the shellac guy, but what he
said was most furniture of the 18th century was treated with plain wax.  The
shellac and varnish finishes we see today on utilitarian antiques was probably
put on later.  So anybody use just wax?
>
> Ed Minch

Krenov did.

As for shellac as finish, I suspect there will have been regional 
differences. The Wikipedia entry indicates shellac was in use as a 
furniture polish as early as the 1500s. It cites an article from the 
/Journal of the American Institute of Conservation/ which describes the 
use of infrared spectrometry to identify a shellac coating on a 
16th-century cassone ( Italian marriage chest, Jeff ).  I can imagine it 
was something the Venetians came upon in their travels. As to when it 
came into popular/common usage, I have nothing to add.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac

Don

-- 
Let's make Norheim great again. ( Norsemen )

I am not bald. I have a tall face. ( Upstart Crow )

I am not going bald. I have very low eyebrows. ( Upstart Crow )

I am not going bloody bald. I have a very big brain. ( Upstart Crow )
267131 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑11‑19 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
So anybody use just wax?
>
> Not straight wax
> But oil/wax about a million times
I have bitter experience with oil/wax going into a wet climate.
When dealing with my mothers estate I came across about 25 or 40 
projects I'd made, over a lifetime.
  Well one of my favorite woods is local birds eye pine. When well 
polished it looks like the emperors new hatband, under a brand new 
oil/wax finish.
  Many other woods too of course, but the birdseye was really special.

  Unfortunately, over time and with moisture it attracts water and mold, 
and turns live fungus
green-black. yuck
    (mother used to use a special lemon oil furniture polish to combat 
mold in the deep south, but as time passed she fell behind).

     I overcoat any linseed oil I use now. Often shellac first, then 
varnish.
I am all for tradition, but not to the point of tears.

     Honestly guys, just between you n me, I am not much of a finish 
snob anymore.
Spar varnish, floor finish, even water based finishes.
I used to hate modern finishes.
Many seem to be way better than they used to be though. Harder and more 
impervious to rough service.

   Learning to really handle a brush? That was the big deal for me.
  After that its not so bad.
             yours Scott


-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
267130 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑11‑19 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Don et Al (is Al here?)

I should have added a bit to that.  He said that very basic furniture was given
a wax finish because it could be applied quickly and easily, and that shellac or
varnish was extra money.  So all of the very pretty stuff made by cabinetmakers
has the higher quality finish.

Ed Minch
267132 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑19 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
rarely, and mostly on shop stuff. Wax requires refreshing on a regular basis,
and that just isn't part of modern housework. Weekly or monthly 'polishing' was
part of my grandparents regular routine when I was young, but that ended in the
late 60s when modern 'polishes' (think pledge) came out, and started having
problems of build-up and yellowing.

Even oil finishes are rarely maintained in the modern home - look around for
some of that "teak oil" Scandinavian furniture that was so trendy in the 70s and
80s, and chances are good (if you can find it) its either been refinished with
poly or its bone dry....

Of course, in the shop, when its easy to dip/wipe/slop or otherwise quickly
refresh a finish, its a different story..

-j
267151 james rich <jameslrich3@g...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
James ,I almost burnt my 71 Blazer to the ground by leaving some rags still
damp with Watco in a 2 gal. bucket in the back . At the time many years ago
I was working on a side job before work ( was working swing at the time )
An interior crown and re-paint job.  I wiped all the doors down with Watco
which is basically a wiping oil with linseed oil, cleaned up and put the
still damp rags into an empty deuce  in the back of the blaser. I was
running late for my real job and just parked the truck and went to work.  6
pm was lunch time , so I went out to the parking lot to get my lunch, I
opened the door and was totally suprised by a rancid smell and SMOKE! I
went around to the back of the truck opened the door , grabbed the 2 gallon
bucket and walked fast to an area where there were no cars, I set the 2
gal. bucket down and it immediately caught fire, I turned it upside down
and grabbed an extinguisher . After the fire was out I checked my shorts
and realised what just happend !  I was late for work and FORGOT to take
the rags out and soak them in water. I couldnt believe I was so stupid, Ive
been a painter my whole life and knew better . I had just recently finished
totally going thru the Blaser and almost burnt it down. On top of that I
was head of the safety comittee in the Maint. dept. at work !  Guess what
the Topic of the next Safety meeting was, My stupidity.   Always soak your
rags in water ! It is also OK to hang on a cyclone fence, just dont wad
them up and toss them. Dont be foolish, and dont be in such a hurry that
you forget to be safe.
267153 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Cautionary tale snipped...

> On 20 Nov 2018, at 01:42, james rich  wrote:
> 
> James ,I almost burnt my 71 Blazer to the ground by leaving some rags still
> damp with Watco in a 2 gal. bucket in the back . At the time many years ago
> I was working on a side job before work ( was working swing at the time )

I’m not a one to be overly scared on the ‘what if’ front, and I only ever use a
steel waste bin for used cloths, but I’m intrigued by this.  My understanding of
the chemistry is that oxidation of the oils is taking place to produce the
polymerisation, and this is an exothermic reaction.

At one end of a scale is a few drops of oil on a cloth in an ambient temperature
of notalot.  I don’t expect any issues to arise.

At the other end is a gang of finishers with a quantity of well soaked cloth,
folded into wads to incorporate air/oxygen anf placed in to a nice warm dry
place without draughts to help the heat build up.


Somewhere along the line is the critical mass and point of combustion.  Do we
have any chemists who can put some numbers to all of this?   What weight of oil
at what ambient temperature is needed before critical mass is reached?

Typically, I use a single square of cloth, no more than 4x4 inches, to apply
oil.  I may use an 8x8 to wipe off.  No more.   Whilst I’m conscious of the fire
risk, I’m not yet paranoid about oily rags.


For completeness of disclosure, there are 2 smoke alarms and both CO2 and water
extinguishers in the workshop.

Richard Wilson
In Northumberland, where winter can be seen sitting offshore.
267154 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Richard

My thoughts exactly.  My shop is in the basement and the small squares of cloth,
or usually paper towel, that I use get opened up flat and set on a swept area of
concrete over night -  the next morning they are hardened up.

Both of the tall ships I work on have certified containers for such rags.  One
tall ship has perhaps 5-8 volunteers at a time in the finishing shop and there
has never been a fire in the container that I know of.

But all this discussion is starting to freak me out - where is that critical
mass?


Ed Minch
267155 Bill Ghio 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Don’t have an answer either,but….I usually only use a small rag; left one folded
overnight; picked up a hot rag the next morning. They now either get soaked in
water and set out unfolded outside or go into the fireplace w/ a match.

Bill
267157 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
wow.. definitely scary, but I'd argue that rags in a truck aren't a fair
comparison to rags in a shop. Even on  a cloudy day, the inside of my truck is a
lot hotter than my shop - on a sunny summer day, the surfaces inside the truck
get hot enough to give contact burns.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't be careful with rags, but the level of risk
is highly dependent on the circumstances, and in my experience, the risk in a
hobby shop is very low - although not non-existent. Pretty much all I do is make
sure they are spread out so that they can polymerize overnight. the next day
they just go in the trash. Sometimes I hang them on a clothesline I've got hung
in the shop, other times I just spread them out on the workbench or drape them
over the edge of a trashcan. I'm pretty calm about the risk of a fire, and (for
me at least) these precautions are more than adequate. Of course, others may
have more (or less) concern, and should act accordingly...



-J
267158 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
that pretty much matches my understanding. I don't know that there is a set
formula - simply because there are so many variables - from level of saturation
to atmospheric humidity and pressure....

In any case, "what I'm comfortable with" is probably the best formula there
is.....

-J
267161 james rich <jameslrich3@g...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
PLEASE, BE AFRAID !  I have also taken  used rags and  opened them up flat
and layed them on the concrete or outside with a rock on them so they cant
blow away. I am not a chemist so I cant give the exact reason that these
rags "Spontaneously Combust " . I think that it happens when the used rags
are wadded up and put in an inclosed container ( bucket , box,ect. ) with
the presence of oxygen. If im doing a project where I know I will be
applying more coats of oil for a few days, I have put them in a Ziplock and
squeezed all the air out, This Still scares me,so I am careful to keep a
close watch on the bags.   I think it works something like a compost pile
that builds up heat in the center. EXOTHERMIC ??  Please Respect oil soaked
rags.   Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
267162 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
On Tue, Nov 20, 2018 at 3:44 AM yorkshireman@y... <
yorkshireman@y...> wrote:

>
>
> At one end of a scale is a few drops of oil on a cloth in an ambient
> temperature of notalot.  I don’t expect any issues to arise.
>
> At the other end is a gang of finishers with a quantity of well soaked
> cloth, folded into wads to incorporate air/oxygen anf placed in to a nice
> warm dry place without draughts to help the heat build up.
>
>
> Somewhere along the line is the critical mass and point of combustion.  Do
> we have any chemists who can put some numbers to all of this?   What weight
> of oil at what ambient temperature is needed before critical mass is
> reached?


All

A quick YouTube search of

Spontaneous combustion -human

Will bring this up, probably first. Unfortunately, no time scale on this
one.

https://youtu.be/Kij2C0fdOVY


As well as many others. Lots of people have done home brewed science
experiments to show how little effort it takes to get spontaneous
combustion.

Don’t worry about ambient temp, I swore I saw one done in the snow a decade
ago. It was on a driveway, cleared the snow w the exothermic, then warmed
up enough to ignite. Took a while.

Other videos do time lapse, to let you get to sleep before it ignites.

Kirk in HMB, who has seen enough videos, and knows of a house fire south of
town, to be worried.

>
> --
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk
267163 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Building boats in the late 70’s, my brother and I had just mixed a gallon of
polyester resin to pour onto a layer of glass cloth.  We got delayed a couple of
minutes and the entire gallon caught on fire.  This is different in that it was
a catalyzed mix, but impressive to watch none the less.

Ed Minch
267164 Erik Levin 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
This has prompted me to review everything I have in my files about the subject.
"Spontaneous combustion" of linseed oil requires a few things (this is not
exhaustive)

The fuel-- linseed oil

oxygen-- not for burning, but to feed the polymerization of the oil

conditions in which heat can build up-- if the heat from the reaction can get
out as fast as it is produced, the temperature will stop rising. This is
strongly influenced by the acceleration of the reaction at higher temperature
(thermal runaway is one term)


Soaked rags tend hold heat, due to the trapped air, and oxygen. Fresh oxygen may
or may not be able to get to the core of a pile or wad or bucket, but not a lot
is needed to support the reaction, so in many  cases it may not matter. Soaked
rags have the fuel and may provide conditions for heat to build up before the
fuel is exhausted. I could find no precise numbers in the pile of (electronic
and paper) safety documentation I have, but there is indication that there is a
pretty strong influence due to the particular formulation of the product and the
particular analysis of the oil itself.

It appears that risk is increased with catalysts ('driers') and the presence of
lignocellulose (like a cotton rag or wood shavings....). Treatment of the oil
(thermal or other that destroys peroxy radicals and ties up some of the O2
sensitizers) tends to reduce the risk.

I would *guess* that thinned oils, especially the fast thinned ones that are
already partially oxidized, are  lower risk (less reactive material, evaporation
of the solvent will take heat with it) that pure oils, but it is only a guess.
The literature I have does not differentiate (the focus is primarily on
catalyzed coatings-- urethanes, epoxies, polyesters, and so on... One hat I
periodically were at work is health/safety/compliance)


An accessible paper that gets deep into the subject is: https://firesci
encereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3">https://firescience
reviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3

*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
267166 RH <rhhutchins@h...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
On 11/20/2018 10:37 AM, Erik Levin via OldTools wrote:
> 
> An accessible paper that gets deep into the subject is: https://fires
ciencereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3">https://firescien
cereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-0414-1-3




Wowsers!  I didn't mean to cause a firestorm (bad pun intended)!

Seriously, the information and experiences shared here are great.  I 
tend to err on the side of caution just as I tend to over engineer 
everything if there is any doubt.

I used my blo/beeswax/thinner emulsion yesterday to clean up and treat 
my router plane.  (Turns out it's a Millers Falls No. 67 with black 
enamel dating it to the '40-50's?)  I used ATF to attack a tiny bit of 
rust, 3 grades of steel wool, and scotchbrite to get rid of it.  I also 
used paper towels to wipe up the ATF residue . . .  several as you might 
imagine, but no cloth. Although I've seen steel wool used to start 
fires, I wasn't too concerned about spontaneous combustion.  Scotchbrite 
is non-combustible which leaves paper towels where some had ATF residue 
an some had magic elixir residue.

A saved glass pickle jar (yes, I'm a galoot like that) that had been 
through the dishwasher became my receptacle for disposal. I'd guess its 
capacity at about a pint.  I stuffed the bits of used steel wool and 
paper towel and scotchbrite into the jar and screwed the lid down 
tight.  Kentucky windage told me that the total volume of air to 
materials was about 40-60%.  A short debate with myself told me that 
there was insufficient exothermic BLO n the mix and insufficient ATF 
(don't know if it is exothermic) and insufficient oxygen to support a 
blaze even if there might be enough to support spontaneous combustion; 
so I didn't fill the jar with water.  Perhaps I should have.  At any 
rate, the jar and waste is now in the garbage bin (dustbin, Jeff).  It 
won't be collected until Monday of next week.  If anything untoward 
happens in the meanwhile, I'll report.

FWIW, I have used BLO for decades, going back to the '50s.  I have 
ALWAYS treated any waste rags or paper or even wood shavings that were 
exposed to it by putting them into an airtight container - usually and 
empty gallon paint can - covering with water and sealing with the lid 
tamped firmly in place.  If I needed to reuse the can, I'd wait several 
days before emptying out the sludge then spread the combustible out to 
dry outside with plenty of air and space between multiple pieces.  I've 
not had a spontaneous combustion yet, but that might be down to good luck.

I'd like to thank everyone for reading my questions and to especially 
thank all of you who responded relating your experiences and offering 
sage advice.  Special thanks to Erik for the link.  I found the 
information a bit overwhelming but useful nonetheless.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX
267167 Christopher Dunn <christopherdunn123@g...> 2018‑11‑20 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Galoots

If you're concerned, you can buy a oily rag waste can, who's
description specifically mentions linseed oil:

https://www.justrite.com/09100-oily-waste-can-6-gallon-foot-operated-
self-closing-cover-red.html">https://www.justrite.com/09100-oily-waste-can-6
-gallon-foot-operated-self-closing-cover-red.html

"Rags and cloths soaked with solvents, thinners, linseed oil,
combustible adhesives and other flammable liquids present a serious
fire risk when improperly discarded. Lid opens to no more than 60
degrees and stays closed when not in use, isolating contents from fire
sources and limiting oxygen to virtually eliminate the risk of
spontaneous combustion. Round construction and elevated base allow
circulation of air around can to disperse heat and reduce moisture
build-up and rusting. Durable steel construction with a powder-coat
finish provides chemical resistance."

It is OSHA compliant (Occupational Safety and Health Administration is
an agency of the United States). Amazon sells them for cheaper than
the above link.

I own one, and don't work for the company. And as my wife will attest
to, I barely work at all.

Thanks,
Chris
267179 Charles Driggs 2018‑11‑21 Re: Apology Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
> On Nov 20, 2018, at 12:43 PM, Bruce Zenge  wrote:
> 
> Tony and All,
> I do believe you are right in your assessment that it all depends.  In the
> family business years ago, we used a lot of linseed oil.  On one occasion,
> we had a spill that was really messy.  Having lots of sawdust round, we
> proceeded to soak it up with the sawdust.  Dumped the whole mess in the
> trash barrels (55 gal drums cut in half), and looked away.  It was a warm,
> not hot, summer day and a couple hours later we smelled smoke.  Checked all
> over and finally found the drums smoldering.  We had a devil of a time
> putting that mess out, spending the rest of the day to get it done.  We
> had, on numerous occasions, cleaned up similar spills in the same manner.
> Obviously, there was something different this particular time.  Needless to
> say, we tried to be a bit more careful after that.  Never had another mess
> like that one.  And BTW, linseed oil and sawdust burns with a very
> unappealing odor.

Interesting.  That might have involved some sawdust that was already decaying.
Not for certain, but a possible explanation.  I spent four years involved with
several wood-waste-fired powerplant & sawmill operations a long time ago, and
one of the constant fire risks was with the wood waste from the chippers.  We
had to have large dozers and bucket loaders turning over piles of waste (10- 20
ft deep) on a relatively constant basis, especially near the boiler feed
conveyors.  Concerns were focused on warm days or after rainstorms (even though
they were relatively rare in that area), but the natural moisture content of the
wood chips was enough to initiate decay.  The smell of douglas fir waste wood
gets decidedly unpleasant when it starts smoldering too, and putting those
smoldering fires out is difficult and may take days.

In this case, you might have had another chemical reaction going on, in addition
to oxidation of linseed oil.  I can see where the heat produced by an exothermic
linseed oil reaction combined with the heat of decay of sawdust could have been
the difference.

I have never had a problem with ignition of BLO rags, but I’ve met people who
said they had a shop fire or lost their shop from not knowing it could happen,
and they strongly advocated submerging BLO rags in water in a closed can.   As
my shop is in my home’s basement, being careless in just the right circumstances
might make me homeless too.

Charlie
267180 Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> 2018‑11‑21 Re: Apology Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
I understand where you're coming from, Charlie, but in this instance your
assessment isn't correct.  This sawdust was from production that was very
recent and from kiln dried lumber.  Specifically, sugar pine and red oak.
Our sawdust was collected by the local waste service on a weekly basis, so
decay was unlikely.  In addition, the sawdust was stored inside the
building until collection day, so not subject to outdoor conditions.  I can
understand the conditions you are referring to where a sawmill operation is
involved, but that just wasn't the case in this particular instance.  To
say we were surprised would be an understatement, as we had done this
before with nothing of this sort having occurred.  Our guess was that it
was simply a result of the amount of linseed oil involved.
Bruce Z.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 2:48 PM Charles Driggs 
wrote:
267184 Charles Driggs 2018‑11‑22 Re: Apology Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
> On Nov 21, 2018, at 4:46 PM, Bruce Zenge  wrote:
> 
> I understand where you're coming from, Charlie, but in this instance your
assessment isn't correct.  This sawdust was from production that was very recent
and from kiln dried lumber.  Specifically, sugar pine and red oak.  Our sawdust
was collected by the local waste service on a weekly basis, so decay was
unlikely.  In addition, the sawdust was stored inside the building until
collection day, so not subject to outdoor conditions.  I can understand the
conditions you are referring to where a sawmill operation is involved, but that
just wasn't the case in this particular instance.  To say we were surprised
would be an understatement, as we had done this before with nothing of this sort
having occurred.  Our guess was that it was simply a result of the amount of
linseed oil involved.
> Bruce Z. 
> 

Bruce, 

That’s certainly a reasonable guess.  Whatever the cause in your situation,
hopefully the discussion now has a few more of us Galoots tuned in to the issue
and what they might need to change to avoid really unpleasant surprises.

Charlie
267185 Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> 2018‑11‑22 Re: Apology Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
Definitely agree.  Nobody likes a fire that is unsuspected, and the results
of that can be disastrous.  Always good to be aware of any bad
possibilities.
Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 8:11 PM Charles Driggs 
wrote:
267695 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2019‑01‑23 Re: Beeswax, BLO, Paint Thinner and a Rountuit
ED Said:

Building boats in the late 70’s, my brother and I had just mixed a gallon of
polyester resin to pour onto a layer of glass cloth.  We got delayed a couple of
minutes and the entire gallon caught on fire.  This is different in that it was
a catalyzed mix, but impressive to watch none the less.

END SNIP


Oho, now you're talking.  I use West Systems epoxy for cracks and voids.  A
little too much in a plastic cup, so they explicitly warn, and the cup will
melt.  A little too much in a void in dry wood, and the wood will burn.  I have
not had this happen to me, HOWEVER, I guy I often work with especially in taming
large timbers had some real excitement once (I have 10' x 16 inch -wide walnut
and white oak, which I have 4-squared by hand more than once but decided to hell
with it on long boards, and he has use of a 28-inch stationery planer).  Anyway,
my friend Tom was doing some work that required epoxy in a downtown city-
sidewalk display window for a high-end department store that we in its home town
affectionately call "Needless Markup."  He was under pressure and lost patience
with setting time, so he decided to boost the hardener ratio.  Oh boy!  His
working pot of mixed epoxy started melting and spewing noxious smoke.  I don't
know how her got it out, but it must have extra fun with the street audience on
one side and NM store management on the other.

Cheers!

Joe

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