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266776 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑10‑14 no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
well, this week, plumbing and electrical rough in is starting. That means
drilling big holes through floors - big like in 3-4" diameter. At a 'normal'
construction site, you'd just toss a hole saw into your power drill, and its
easy. At THIS jobsite, a brace and bit has been filling in for the power drill,
so I figured I'd give it a try.

Bottom line: it works, but its slow, and a bit of a PITA. Hole saws are not
meant to be accurate. The twist bit in the center acts as a basic "keep it from
drifting all over the place" anchor, but with a  power drill, the saw part
establishes a kerf pretty quick, and the blade them follows the kerf. This
doesn't happen with the brace. The twist drill is fine as "put it where you want
the center of the hole to be" guide, but once the saw blade hits, the inherent
wobbling of a brace comes into play, and the center hole tends to ream out a
bit. This means that the saw isn't making a nice clean kerf, but is making more
of a round trench. With care, this does eventually settle down into a cleaner
cut. In all honesty, as I recall, this is more r less how hole saws always work,
but when using a power drill, a couple ten revolutions while the blade gets
settled doesn't really matter.

Once the kerf is established, things stay touch. A 3" hole is actually cutting
about 7" of material. a 4" hole is cutting 12 1/2+ inches. That means that you
need to generate a lot of push to keep the blade moving. And the teeth tend to
clog fairly quickly. I'm guessing that with a power drill, the teeth tend to
clear by throwing the swarf out the side with centrifugal force. This doesn't
happen with a brace. Of course, there is no lead screw to pull the saw through
the stock, so you have top apply some pressure, but only a little - if you push
to hard, the teeth clog instantly.
I found that the best method was to use very light pressure, and not rely on the
center bit as more than a very rough placement guide. By starting at a very
slight angle, it was easier to get a kerf established because the swarf could be
dropped in the "high" part of the circle. constant blowing away of the swarf and
a slow rotation of the high spot let the bit get started. Once there was a kerf
established, I tried squaring the cut, but the bit clogged pretty quickly, so I
kept the rotating angle all the way through. I still had to remove the bit and
clear the teeth every 8-10 rotations. Slow going, but possible.

HAND SAWING PT
Pressure treated limber is great for ground or concrete contact, but it is WET.
That means it is soft and spongy. There is something about cutting it by hand
that just isn't easy. No matter what I did, the saw would bind up. 2x4s crosscut
OK, but anything bigger - 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, or 2x12, would bind. I didn't have
this problem with 'normal' 2x stock so it must have been something with the PT.
My guess is the high moisture content just caused extra drag. I'm using a 10
point crosscut saw, but its got a fairly narrow kerf in relation to blade
thickness, so the friction idea makes sense. Fortunately, other than cutting
stringers, I didn't have to deal with much PT. Cutting 4 steps worth of stringer
(10.75 tread, 7.375 rise) took about an hour (I had to cut 3 of them). this is
the first time that cutting the stringers took longer than laying them out....

The next big task is going to be ripping about 180 lineal feet of 2x4 into
1.5x2" stock for nailers. I may take this back to the home shop and just run
them through the table saw.

Hopefully, I'll be ready for rough in inspection on the 22nd. Then all I need is
insulation, wall cover, and occupancy permit....

-J
266778 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
> A 3" hole is actually cutting about 7" of material. a 4" hole is cutting
12 1/2+ inches.
It may be a bit late to implement this, but would it not be easier, less
irritating if a series of 1/2 or 3/4 inch holes were drilled within the
perimeter of the hole, and then a chisel used to knock off the resulting
spurs as needed?
266779 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
Back in the day, wasn't the keyhole saw the creature for round holes larger
than normal brace bit sizes?
266780 Brent A Kinsey <brentpmed@c...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
James, 
An option for your hole cutting endevours would be to drill a 1" starter hole
and use a hand hole saw...long, narrow pointed blade lets you saw curves might
be quite a bit less work than making those round power hole saws work in a
brace.  I must admit to admiring your effort tho!

If you have access to a coarser  crosscut saw like  a 5 point or 8 point with
more set to the teeth will help in wet wood.  A narrow kerf is not your friend
in wet wood.

Keep up the good work and reports!

Brent A Kinsey
266781 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
You need a crosscut with big teeth and lots of set to cut wet spongy 
stock of any kind.
   I filed one from a 6 point rip saw just for this purpose.

Crosscut teeth that big in regular dry wood?    It'll kill ya!! Godzilla 
couldn't push that saw through dry wood.

But wet or green wood needs -big- teeth to clear the swarf, and it just 
wolfs.

Keyhole saws usually cut on the push stroke. Really effective, but man 
you have to be super good with your stroke to keep from folding the poor 
blade up like an accordion.
   I refile mine to cut on the pull instead. Takes a little longer but 
it works.

The answer is always more tools........ lol
   yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
266782 "bilcol" <bilcol@b...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
Way back, when I did framing/carpentry as summer jobs I remember the boss
going through the framed houses with a smallish gas chainsaw to cut plumbing
and HVAC holes through the flooring.  

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Brent
A Kinsey
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:04 PM
To: James DUPRIE 
Cc: Listserv Oldtools 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole
saws", and sawing PT

James,
An option for your hole cutting endevours would be to drill a 1" starter
hole and use a hand hole saw...long, narrow pointed blade lets you saw
curves might be quite a bit less work than making those round power hole
saws work in a brace.  I must admit to admiring your effort tho! 

If you have access to a coarser  crosscut saw like  a 5 point or 8 point
with more set to the teeth will help in wet wood.  A narrow kerf is not your
friend in wet wood.

Keep up the good work and reports!

Brent A Kinsey


> On Oct 14, 2018, at 8:24 AM, James DUPRIE  wrote:
> 
> well, this week, plumbing and electrical rough in is starting. That means
drilling big holes through floors - big like in 3-4" diameter. At a 'normal'
construction site, you'd just toss a hole saw into your power drill, and its
easy. At THIS jobsite, a brace and bit has been filling in for the power
drill, so I figured I'd give it a try.
> 
> Bottom line: it works, but its slow, and a bit of a PITA. Hole saws are
not meant to be accurate. The twist bit in the center acts as a basic "keep
it from drifting all over the place" anchor, but with a  power drill, the
saw part establishes a kerf pretty quick, and the blade them follows the
kerf. This doesn't happen with the brace. The twist drill is fine as "put it
where you want the center of the hole to be" guide, but once the saw blade
hits, the inherent wobbling of a brace comes into play, and the center hole
tends to ream out a bit. This means that the saw isn't making a nice clean
kerf, but is making more of a round trench. With care, this does eventually
settle down into a cleaner cut. In all honesty, as I recall, this is more r
less how hole saws always work, but when using a power drill, a couple ten
revolutions while the blade gets settled doesn't really matter.
> 
> Once the kerf is established, things stay touch. A 3" hole is actually
cutting about 7" of material. a 4" hole is cutting 12 1/2+ inches. That
means that you need to generate a lot of push to keep the blade moving. And
the teeth tend to clog fairly quickly. I'm guessing that with a power drill,
the teeth tend to clear by throwing the swarf out the side with centrifugal
force. This doesn't happen with a brace. Of course, there is no lead screw
to pull the saw through the stock, so you have top apply some pressure, but
only a little - if you push to hard, the teeth clog instantly.
> I found that the best method was to use very light pressure, and not rely
on the center bit as more than a very rough placement guide. By starting at
a very slight angle, it was easier to get a kerf established because the
swarf could be dropped in the "high" part of the circle. constant blowing
away of the swarf and a slow rotation of the high spot let the bit get
started. Once there was a kerf established, I tried squaring the cut, but
the bit clogged pretty quickly, so I kept the rotating angle all the way
through. I still had to remove the bit and clear the teeth every 8-10
rotations. Slow going, but possible.
> 
> HAND SAWING PT
> Pressure treated limber is great for ground or concrete contact, but it is
WET. That means it is soft and spongy. There is something about cutting it
by hand that just isn't easy. No matter what I did, the saw would bind up.
2x4s crosscut OK, but anything bigger - 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, or 2x12, would bind.
I didn't have this problem with 'normal' 2x stock so it must have been
something with the PT. My guess is the high moisture content just caused
extra drag. I'm using a 10 point crosscut saw, but its got a fairly narrow
kerf in relation to blade thickness, so the friction idea makes sense.
Fortunately, other than cutting stringers, I didn't have to deal with much
PT. Cutting 4 steps worth of stringer (10.75 tread, 7.375 rise) took about
an hour (I had to cut 3 of them). this is the first time that cutting the
stringers took longer than laying them out....
> 
> The next big task is going to be ripping about 180 lineal feet of 2x4 into
1.5x2" stock for nailers. I may take this back to the home shop and just run
them through the table saw.
> 
> Hopefully, I'll be ready for rough in inspection on the 22nd. Then all I
need is insulation, wall cover, and occupancy permit....
> 
> -J
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OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
266783 Erik Levin 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
For the holes, I would tend to a) drill a couple holes at the perimeter to allow
chips to clear if using a hole saw. I do this even when using powered drive,
especially for thicker material (12mm or more wood, 4mm or more metal); b) not
use a hole saw if I can avoid it. I trepannig type cutter-- two cutter style
preferred, with one ground to cut a little deeper to the inside, the other to
the outside, similarly to sharpening a crosscut saw, both with copious side and
back relief-- is a lot easier and will clear chips better. When I use them, I
predrill the center and use a solid guide pin. Then again, I do the same with
hole saws. c) If I must use a hole saw, I might remove every third tooth or so,
both to provide a little more chip clearance, but mostly to increase the tooth-
point pressure so as to prevent the teeth tending to slide. Maybe add a bit more
set to a few of the teeth to widen the kerf and reduce bind tendency, as well.


As to cutting pressure treated: Ya. I feel you on that. Wipe and wax the saw
every cut and, as said, use larger teeth with a lot of set.


If it is bad enough, you might try a Tuttle or Lance pattern crosscut (two or
four slicer teeth, respectively, interspersed with rakers to clear chips,
usually about 36 inches for the one-man, intended for bucking logs). Be sure the
work is firmly held or braced. Not usually considered fine-work tools, but I
keep a 3-footer around and sharp for more than just the occasional storm
cleanup. Porch and sill repairs, for example. Cut from the face of the board,
not the edge, to the extent possible to keep proper tooth engagement using this
type of saw. Cuts can be finished with a standard crosscut hand saw (panel saw)
with course teeth.


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266784 Brent A Kinsey <brentpmed@c...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
I meant Keyhole saw...  

Brent A Kinsey
266785 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑10‑14 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
On 2018-10-14 11:02 AM, scott grandstaff wrote:
>
> Keyhole saws usually cut on the push stroke. Really effective, but man 
> you have to be super good with your stroke to keep from folding the 
> poor blade up like an accordion.
>   I refile mine to cut on the pull instead. 

I have an old padsaw with a slot for the blade to pass through, like a 
single-end hacksaw handle. It came with no blade. I formed a general 
purpose line of crosscut teeth on an old hacksaw blade for cutting wood. 
Works great for this sort of thing because you can reverse the blade to 
cut on pull or push as needed, and extend the blade a little or a lot 
depending on the situation. It can be very useful. I would cut more 
blades, rip or crosscut, larger teeth or smaller, wide set or narrow as 
dictated by the job, but so far haven't felt the need.

Don

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266804 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑10‑15 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
thought about that, but I was drilling through Advantec (plastic infused wood
chip flooring product), and need a fairly clean hole.... The "perforate and
punch" method leaves a mess...

-J
266805 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑10‑15 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
yes, on both counts - a wider kerf saw and a keyhole saw would both be better
choices, but I have neither...
-J
266806 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2018‑10‑15 Re: no power shop build - Brace aned bit and 'hole saws", and sawing PT
that's terrifying. I can;t imagine his plumbers liked him much. Either that or
he was REALLY good with a chainsaw...
-J

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