OldTools Archive

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266111 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑07‑16 story sticks
Our daughter and son-in-law GIT visited recently to surprise me for my 
birthday. One of the things he showed interest in was getting an image 
of a story stick. I couldn't find one, so he had to make do with taking 
a photo of one of mine. But I offered to look through some of my books 
to see what I could find on the topic, and the only reference to story 
sticks was in Jere Cary's book on kitchen cabinets, where he gives a 
detailed explanation of their use. His description, and the sticks 
themselves, have been immensely useful to me both in refitting a 
kitchen, and in building furniture. Basically, they serve as a tool of 
relative measure, as a method for transferring dimensions - from a 
kitchen to the workshop, or from a full-size drawing to stock on the 
workbench.  It seemed to me I should be able to find some reference to 
them elsewhere, but I can't. Does anyone know of earlier references to 
these devices? Does anyone else use them? Has anyone found them at sales?

Don

-- 
“Error flies from mouth to mouth, from pen to pen, and to destroy it takes
ages.” Voltaire

“A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely re-arranging
their prejudices.” William James
266112 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2018‑07‑16 Re: story sticks
Don asks us to tell him a story.. 

> ... the only reference to story sticks was in Jere Cary's book on kitchen
cabinets, where he gives a detailed explanation of their use. His description,
and the sticks themselves, have been immensely useful to me both in refitting a
kitchen, and in building furniture. Basically, they serve as a tool of relative
measure,

I use story sticks frequently, starting yers back when I made a short run of
meditation stools for my GIT,  Marking out lots of pieces, some angled, would
have been a pain with a rule and drawings.  Still have it, though I see marks I
no longer understand, whihc is a shame, as I have been asked to make some more.

That one was just a length of offcut, thinned down at one edge with the edge
marked and annotated.  More intelligible codes would be good.  Later ones I make
using lengths of ply, again planed on the edges and thinned with a bevel if
appropriate, then given a coat of white paint.  This is hugely better.  Mostly
because it avoids the embarrassment of them going for scrap at the end of a
project, but also because the marks show up, as do any notes.  You can recycle
with a fresh coat of paint too.  Us Yorkshiremen are carefu’ wi’ t’ brass.

I seem to recall something in one of my books which showed the dimensions for a
door or similar laid out on the drawing in story stick style - alongside the
projection, with all dimensions for all components, and sections for the
mouldings.  The designer recognising the method of production.  I’ll go and take
a look and see if I can report in a reference.

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot 
 in unnaturally warm Northumbria at 29 centimetric degrees
266115 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑07‑16 Re: story sticks
I worked for a short time with a Norwegian cabinetmaker (Knute Hakas) in the
70’s who worked in metric and used story sticks extensively.  He could put a
whole kitchen on a story stick.  Easy to put built in bookcases and shelving on
a story stick with no measuring at all.  I think the point is that any stick can
be a story stick, and it might just have a single use, or be hung from the shop
rafters with the other patterns for future use.

Here is something I believe they actually made for a while after the April Fools
- reusable

http://www.leevalle
y.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=65359 <http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/p
age.aspx?p=65359">http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=65359>

Boatbuilders have easy ways to make a panel that fits inside the boat against a
curved hull with curved deck overhead.  I learn best when I can see something,
and I had great teachers.


Ed Minch
266116 Glenn Knowles 2018‑07‑16 Re: story sticks
"Story poles" were/are also used for laying out clapboard and shingle exposure,
or spacing on house exteriors.  The story pole facilitates alignment of window
sills, heads, and siding exposures while avoiding those ugly small pieces of
siding at the top or bottom off the wall. Glenn Knowles


GLENN KNOWLES & ASSOCIATES
Office: 584 Columbia Rd.Mail: 551 Columbia Rd. #255732
Boston, MA 02125
617-319-5671www.glennknowles.com


      From: "yorkshireman@y..." 
 To: Don Schwartz  
Cc: old tools 
 Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 4:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] story sticks
   
Don asks us to tell him a story.. 

> ... the only reference to story sticks was in Jere Cary's book on kitchen
cabinets, where he gives a detailed explanation of their use. His description,
and the sticks themselves, have been immensely useful to me both in refitting a
kitchen, and in building furniture. Basically, they serve as a tool of relative
measure,

I use story sticks frequently, starting yers back when I made a short run of
meditation stools for my GIT,  Marking out lots of pieces, some angled, would
have been a pain with a rule and drawings.  Still have it, though I see marks I
no longer understand, whihc is a shame, as I have been asked to make some more.

That one was just a length of offcut, thinned down at one edge with the edge
marked and annotated.  More intelligible codes would be good.  Later ones I make
using lengths of ply, again planed on the edges and thinned with a bevel if
appropriate, then given a coat of white paint.  This is hugely better.  Mostly
because it avoids the embarrassment of them going for scrap at the end of a
project, but also because the marks show up, as do any notes.  You can recycle
with a fresh coat of paint too.  Us Yorkshiremen are carefu’ wi’ t’ brass.

I seem to recall something in one of my books which showed the dimensions for a
door or similar laid out on the drawing in story stick style - alongside the
projection, with all dimensions for all components, and sections for the
mouldings.  The designer recognising the method of production.  I’ll go and take
a look and see if I can report in a reference.

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot 
 in unnaturally warm Northumbria at 29 centimetric degrees


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OldTools@s...
266117 <gtgrouch@r...> 2018‑07‑16 Re: story sticks
Sorry about spamming people in my eagerness for saw files.

I'll try not to do it again!

Electronically challenged, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
266118 William Ghio 2018‑07‑16 Re: story sticks
> On Jul 16, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> 
> Our daughter and son-in-law GIT visited recently to surprise me for my
birthday. One of the things he showed interest in was getting an image of a
story stick. I couldn't find one, so he had to make do with taking a photo of
one of mine. But I offered to look through some of my books to see what I could
find on the topic, and the only reference to story sticks was in Jere Cary's
book on kitchen cabinets, where he gives a detailed explanation of their use.
His description, and the sticks themselves, have been immensely useful to me
both in refitting a kitchen, and in building furniture. Basically, they serve as
a tool of relative measure, as a method for transferring dimensions - from a
kitchen to the workshop, or from a full-size drawing to stock on the workbench.
It seemed to me I should be able to find some reference to them elsewhere, but I
can't. Does anyone know of earlier references to these devices? Does anyone else
use them? Has anyone found them at sales?

In “Doormaking & Windowmaking” published by Lost Arts Press, Anonymous (c. 1910)
simply assumes you know what a “Setting Out Rod” is and describes it in one
sentence.

George Ellis, “Modern Practical Joinery” goes into a bit of detail w/
illustration about a “story rod” use in stairbuilding c. 1902.

Bernard Jones in “The Practical Woodworker” c.19?? discusses the “setting out
rod” in reference to window making.

Those are the only references I could find in my library.

Bill
266119 Pete 2018‑07‑17 Re: Story Sticks
Story sticks, called "tick sticks" by boat builders, are used in lofting to
transfer actual physical dimensions from one view on the lofting to another.
Lofting is the process of transferring the table of offsets to the lofting floor
and using them to draw out the lines, usually in three views (and traditionally
drawn one on top of one another) needed to build a boat. TITANIC was lofted in
this manner. (Believe it or not, aircraft were lofted too - I think the 747 was
the first big aircraft to be computer modeled). I'll check my library and see
what I can find on the topic of "tick sticks".
 
Pete Leenhouts
MV RIPTIDE, a 1927 bridge deck cruiser
Flickr photo album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/7215
7678815239754">https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/72157678815239754<
/a>
===================================================================
 
In a message dated 7/17/2018 1:02:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, oldtools-
request@s... writes:

 
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 17:04:29 -0400
From: William Ghio 
To: Don Schwartz 
Cc: OldTools List 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] story sticks
Message-ID: <9B226F60-4297-426B-A2B0-A2B4B466C959@m...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8



> On Jul 16, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> 
> Our daughter and son-in-law GIT visited recently to surprise me for my
birthday. One of the things he showed interest in was getting an image of a
story stick. I couldn't find one..

In ?Doormaking & Windowmaking? published by Lost Arts Press, Anonymous (c. 1910)
simply assumes you know what a ?Setting Out Rod? is and describes it in one
sentence.

George Ellis, ?Modern Practical Joinery? goes into a bit of detail w/
illustration about a ?story rod? use in stairbuilding c. 1902.

Bernard Jones in ?The Practical Woodworker? c.19?? discusses the ?setting out
rod? in reference to window making.

Those are the only references I could find in my library.

Bill
266121 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑07‑18 Re: story sticks
On 2018-07-16 3:04 PM, William Ghio wrote:
> In “Doormaking & Windowmaking” published by Lost Arts Press, Anonymous (c.
1910) simply assumes you know what a “Setting Out Rod” is and describes it in
one sentence.
>
> George Ellis, “Modern Practical Joinery” goes into a bit of detail w/
illustration about a “story rod” use in stairbuilding c. 1902.
>
> Bernard Jones in “The Practical Woodworker” c.19?? discusses the “setting out
rod” in reference to window making.
>
> Those are the only references I could find in my library.
>
> Bill

There is also a description of using a 'story rod' for laying out stairs 
and railings in Nicholson's Mechanics Companion ( 1845? ).

Don

-- 
“Error flies from mouth to mouth, from pen to pen, and to destroy it takes
ages.” Voltaire

“A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely re-arranging
their prejudices.” William James
266125 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
ok, i’ll bite.  what’s “lofting”, then?

bill
felton, ca
266126 Phil Schempf <philschempf@g...> 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
Pete gives a concise definition, but more here at Wiki -
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lofting

I have minimal experience laying down lines for a couple of cold molded skiffs,
but the same method is (was) used for much bigger vessels such as the Titanic.

You have a table of measurements (offsets) that in my simple case show the
distance marked from a baseline. The baseline is divided into stations. The
offsets measure from the baseline perpendicularly to a point. For any particular
line, says the top edge of a hull, you end up with a line of points, through
which you draw a fair line, using a flexible batten. You end up with the side
view of the hull and cross section views of the hull at each station. Hopefully
I didn’t embarrass myself too much with a description that’s clear as mud and
may be questionable on any number of points.

Phil

Sent from my iPhone
266127 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
Boy

I just took a stab at explaining boat lofting in simple terms and I failed.  The
Wiki entry is not very satisfying, and I like Phil’s start on it.

In short, it is a way to draw a 3 dimensional curved object in two dimensions
using 3 drawings that share points between them.  It is usually applied to
boats, and the full sized drawing were done on the loft floor - hence the name.
We still have a sail loft, where pieces of a sail are laid out for assembly on
the big, open floor.

http://www.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/lines.html

Look at the second drawing down - a simple small boat.  All three drawings are
on grids that are shared among them.  The top drawing from the end shows the
center to the back on the left, and the center to the front on the right.  Just
look at it for a minute and you can see how the drawings all share among them.
To actually exist in real life, a  point on one drawing has to also be a point
on the shared dimensions of the other drawings.

It can get complicated - the Kalmar Nyckel is a tall ship that I worked on
during construction.  It is 98 feet on deck and we couldn’t make a full sized
drawing, so we made one 49 feet long and folded on itself so the very front and
the very back were on top of each other.


Here is the bad attempt:

Anybody can conceive of a pretty looking boat, but how do you draw it so that it
can be built.  How do you make 2 dimensional drawings  that can be translated
into a shape that actually exists?

Lofting is most frequently associated with boats, and it is the accurate
(usually full-size) drawing that combines side view, end view and top view to
reconcile the shape into something that can be built.

Imagine this - I have 3 grids to draw on, all using a common starting point or
baseline.  If I draw the side of a boat, a point on its surface will have 2
reference points, length and height.  If I then draw it from the top, this
drawing will share the length, but add width.  If I then draw it from the front,
it will have width and height taken from the other 2 drawings.  If the point
does not share the 3 dimension on all 3 drawings, then you change some
dimensions and re-draw until it does.

A point on the surface of the boat will have to share its reference dimensions
on each of the three drawings.  Curved lines are drawn through a series of these
points,

In practice, the naval architect draws these 3 perspectives, and reconciles
dimension and shapes unitl it all works out. But his drawing might be only 2
feet long, so his dimensions, even if taken to 1/64 of an inch, will be within
almost 3/8” on a real 40 foot boat - no where near close enough to ensure that
shape will be buildable.  So once you have made the small 3 drawings full sized
you have to start erasing lines, changing dimensions on 2 or 3 of them, and re-
drawing curved lines to meet the new dimensions.  Once the lines are within
about 1/16 to 1/8” of being reconciled on a 40 foot or so boat, you are ready to
build.

Once you have the drawings all reconciled, you can then make patterns for pieces
right off the floor- and they “should” fit right in.

Sorry if I muddied the waters so to speak.

Ed Minch
266128 Pete 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
Ed, that's the clearest and most succinct explanation I've seen yet - well done.
 
Designer's drawing  (or half model) ==> table of offfsets* ==> full-sized
lofting ==> wooden patterns of major parts ==> major parts built (for example:
keel, stem, transom, knees, breasthook) ==> boat
 
*the table of offsets is just a table with the boat's lines expressed as points
in space referenced to a base line.  Many times, the builder picked off the
points he wanted from the designer's drawing (or more likely, the half model)
and just skipped the table of offsets, going directly to the full-sized lofting.
 
Sails were lofted, too - since they're three-dimensional, not flat, objects. 
 
Story sticks were used to transfer the actual physical dimension found by
lofting the boat/ship between the three views on the lofting.
 
wr/Pete Leenhouts
 
   
 
In a message dated 7/19/2018 6:15:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, ruby1638@a...
writes:
 
Boy
 
I just took a stab at explaining boat lofting in simple terms and I failed.  The
Wiki entry is not very satisfying, and I like Phil’s start on it.
 
In short, it is a way to draw a 3 dimensional curved object in two dimensions
using 3 drawings that share points between them.  It is usually applied to
boats, and the full sized drawing were done on the loft floor - hence the name.
We still have a sail loft, where pieces of a sail are laid out for assembly on
the big, open floor.
 
http://www.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/lines.html
 
Look at the second drawing down - a simple small boat.  All three drawings are
on grids that are shared among them.  The top drawing from the end shows the
center to the back on the left, and the center to the front on the right.  Just
look at it for a minute and you can see how the drawings all share among them.
To actually exist in real life, a  point on one drawing has to also be a point
on the shared dimensions of the other drawings.
 
It can get complicated - the Kalmar Nyckel is a tall ship that I worked on
during construction.  It is 98 feet on deck and we couldn’t make a full sized
drawing, so we made one 49 feet long and folded on itself so the very front and
the very back were on top of each other.
 
 
Here is the bad attempt:
 
Anybody can conceive of a pretty looking boat, but how do you draw it so that it
can be built.  How do you make 2 dimensional drawings  that can be translated
into a shape that actually exists?
 
Lofting is most frequently associated with boats, and it is the accurate
(usually full-size) drawing that combines side view, end view and top view to
reconcile the shape into something that can be built.
 
Imagine this - I have 3 grids to draw on, all using a common starting point or
baseline.  If I draw the side of a boat, a point on its surface will have 2
reference points, length and height.  If I then draw it from the top, this
drawing will share the length, but add width.  If I then draw it from the front,
it will have width and height taken from the other 2 drawings.  If the point
does not share the 3 dimension on all 3 drawings, then you change some
dimensions and re-draw until it does.
 
A point on the surface of the boat will have to share its reference dimensions
on each of the three drawings.  Curved lines are drawn through a series of these
points,
 
In practice, the naval architect draws these 3 perspectives, and reconciles
dimension and shapes unitl it all works out. But his drawing might be only 2
feet long, so his dimensions, even if taken to 1/64 of an inch, will be within
almost 3/8” on a real 40 foot boat - no where near close enough to ensure that
shape will be buildable.  So once you have made the small 3 drawings full sized
you have to start erasing lines, changing dimensions on 2 or 3 of them, and re-
drawing curved lines to meet the new dimensions.  Once the lines are within
about 1/16 to 1/8” of being reconciled on a 40 foot or so boat, you are ready to
build.
 
Once you have the drawings all reconciled, you can then make patterns for pieces
right off the floor- and they “should” fit right in.
 
Sorry if I muddied the waters so to speak.
 
Ed Minch
 
 

On Jul 19, 2018, at 8:23 PM, Dragon List  wrote:
ok, i’ll bite.  what’s “lofting”, then?

bill
266130 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
Thanks to all above.  I think I see now.  Reminds me of running plan and
elevation drawings on the same sheet when I studied architecture, each from
the other (front, side elevations, plan drawing).

Best,
Bill
Felton, CA
266132 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
Bill

Having worked with both, the boat stuff is logarithmically more complicated than
the building stuff.

Ed Minch
266133 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2018‑07‑20 Re: Story Sticks
I can believe that, Ed.  Not least due to the curves across 3-dimensions...

Best,
Bill
266143 Pete 2018‑07‑21 Re: Story Sticks, Tick Sticks and Story Poles
A good source for the use of tick sticks in boatbuilding is found in the 2011
book by Roger Kopanycia entitled "Lofting a Boat: A Step-by-step Manual", which
is part of the Adlard Coles Classic boat series (ISBN 978-1-4081-3112-1).
 
The author shows step by step how tick sticks are used, and states ""Note that
by using a tick stick, each position is only 'measured' once. If it needs to be
transferred,  then using a tick stick guarantees consistency, because it
eliminates the risk of any measuring errors that could occur if the same pieces
of information were 'measured' several times".
 
It's easy to see how story sticks are used much the same way - to transfer the
actual physical dimension of something without the need for a tape measure.
Author and cabinetmaker Jim Tolpin, who calls them "story poles", goes into
great detail about them and how they're used in his 1994 Taunton Press book book
"Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" (ISBN 1-56158-058-9).
 
Pete Leenhouts
MV RIPTIDE
Flickr photo album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/7215
7678815239754">https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/72157678815239754<
/a>
==================================================================== 
 
In a message dated 7/20/2018 11:54:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dragon01list@g... writes:

 
I can believe that, Ed.  Not least due to the curves across 3-dimensions...
 
Best,
Bill

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Ed Minch  wrote:
Bill

Having worked with both, the boat stuff is logarithmically more complicated than
the building stuff.

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