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266111 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑07‑16 | story sticks |
Our daughter and son-in-law GIT visited recently to surprise me for my birthday. One of the things he showed interest in was getting an image of a story stick. I couldn't find one, so he had to make do with taking a photo of one of mine. But I offered to look through some of my books to see what I could find on the topic, and the only reference to story sticks was in Jere Cary's book on kitchen cabinets, where he gives a detailed explanation of their use. His description, and the sticks themselves, have been immensely useful to me both in refitting a kitchen, and in building furniture. Basically, they serve as a tool of relative measure, as a method for transferring dimensions - from a kitchen to the workshop, or from a full-size drawing to stock on the workbench. It seemed to me I should be able to find some reference to them elsewhere, but I can't. Does anyone know of earlier references to these devices? Does anyone else use them? Has anyone found them at sales? Don -- “Error flies from mouth to mouth, from pen to pen, and to destroy it takes ages.” Voltaire “A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely re-arranging their prejudices.” William James |
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266112 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2018‑07‑16 | Re: story sticks |
Don asks us to tell him a story.. > ... the only reference to story sticks was in Jere Cary's book on kitchen cabinets, where he gives a detailed explanation of their use. His description, and the sticks themselves, have been immensely useful to me both in refitting a kitchen, and in building furniture. Basically, they serve as a tool of relative measure, I use story sticks frequently, starting yers back when I made a short run of meditation stools for my GIT, Marking out lots of pieces, some angled, would have been a pain with a rule and drawings. Still have it, though I see marks I no longer understand, whihc is a shame, as I have been asked to make some more. That one was just a length of offcut, thinned down at one edge with the edge marked and annotated. More intelligible codes would be good. Later ones I make using lengths of ply, again planed on the edges and thinned with a bevel if appropriate, then given a coat of white paint. This is hugely better. Mostly because it avoids the embarrassment of them going for scrap at the end of a project, but also because the marks show up, as do any notes. You can recycle with a fresh coat of paint too. Us Yorkshiremen are carefu’ wi’ t’ brass. I seem to recall something in one of my books which showed the dimensions for a door or similar laid out on the drawing in story stick style - alongside the projection, with all dimensions for all components, and sections for the mouldings. The designer recognising the method of production. I’ll go and take a look and see if I can report in a reference. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot in unnaturally warm Northumbria at 29 centimetric degrees |
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266115 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑07‑16 | Re: story sticks |
I worked for a short time with a Norwegian cabinetmaker (Knute Hakas) in the 70’s who worked in metric and used story sticks extensively. He could put a whole kitchen on a story stick. Easy to put built in bookcases and shelving on a story stick with no measuring at all. I think the point is that any stick can be a story stick, and it might just have a single use, or be hung from the shop rafters with the other patterns for future use. Here is something I believe they actually made for a while after the April Fools - reusable http://www.leevalle y.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=65359 <http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/p age.aspx?p=65359">http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=65359> Boatbuilders have easy ways to make a panel that fits inside the boat against a curved hull with curved deck overhead. I learn best when I can see something, and I had great teachers. Ed Minch |
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266116 | Glenn Knowles | 2018‑07‑16 | Re: story sticks |
"Story poles" were/are also used for laying out clapboard and shingle exposure, or spacing on house exteriors. The story pole facilitates alignment of window sills, heads, and siding exposures while avoiding those ugly small pieces of siding at the top or bottom off the wall. Glenn Knowles GLENN KNOWLES & ASSOCIATES Office: 584 Columbia Rd.Mail: 551 Columbia Rd. #255732 Boston, MA 02125 617-319-5671www.glennknowles.com From: "yorkshireman@y..." |
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266117 | <gtgrouch@r...> | 2018‑07‑16 | Re: story sticks |
Sorry about spamming people in my eagerness for saw files. I'll try not to do it again! Electronically challenged, Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA |
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266118 | William Ghio | 2018‑07‑16 | Re: story sticks |
> On Jul 16, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Don Schwartz |
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266119 | Pete | 2018‑07‑17 | Re: Story Sticks |
Story sticks, called "tick sticks" by boat builders, are used in lofting to transfer actual physical dimensions from one view on the lofting to another. Lofting is the process of transferring the table of offsets to the lofting floor and using them to draw out the lines, usually in three views (and traditionally drawn one on top of one another) needed to build a boat. TITANIC was lofted in this manner. (Believe it or not, aircraft were lofted too - I think the 747 was the first big aircraft to be computer modeled). I'll check my library and see what I can find on the topic of "tick sticks". Pete Leenhouts MV RIPTIDE, a 1927 bridge deck cruiser Flickr photo album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/7215 7678815239754">https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/72157678815239754< /a> =================================================================== In a message dated 7/17/2018 1:02:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, oldtools- request@s... writes: Message: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 17:04:29 -0400 From: William Ghio |
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266121 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2018‑07‑18 | Re: story sticks |
On 2018-07-16 3:04 PM, William Ghio wrote: > In “Doormaking & Windowmaking” published by Lost Arts Press, Anonymous (c. 1910) simply assumes you know what a “Setting Out Rod” is and describes it in one sentence. > > George Ellis, “Modern Practical Joinery” goes into a bit of detail w/ illustration about a “story rod” use in stairbuilding c. 1902. > > Bernard Jones in “The Practical Woodworker” c.19?? discusses the “setting out rod” in reference to window making. > > Those are the only references I could find in my library. > > Bill There is also a description of using a 'story rod' for laying out stairs and railings in Nicholson's Mechanics Companion ( 1845? ). Don -- “Error flies from mouth to mouth, from pen to pen, and to destroy it takes ages.” Voltaire “A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely re-arranging their prejudices.” William James |
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266125 | Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
ok, i’ll bite. what’s “lofting”, then? bill felton, ca |
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266126 | Phil Schempf <philschempf@g...> | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
Pete gives a concise definition, but more here at Wiki - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lofting I have minimal experience laying down lines for a couple of cold molded skiffs, but the same method is (was) used for much bigger vessels such as the Titanic. You have a table of measurements (offsets) that in my simple case show the distance marked from a baseline. The baseline is divided into stations. The offsets measure from the baseline perpendicularly to a point. For any particular line, says the top edge of a hull, you end up with a line of points, through which you draw a fair line, using a flexible batten. You end up with the side view of the hull and cross section views of the hull at each station. Hopefully I didn’t embarrass myself too much with a description that’s clear as mud and may be questionable on any number of points. Phil Sent from my iPhone |
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266127 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
Boy I just took a stab at explaining boat lofting in simple terms and I failed. The Wiki entry is not very satisfying, and I like Phil’s start on it. In short, it is a way to draw a 3 dimensional curved object in two dimensions using 3 drawings that share points between them. It is usually applied to boats, and the full sized drawing were done on the loft floor - hence the name. We still have a sail loft, where pieces of a sail are laid out for assembly on the big, open floor. http://www.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/lines.html Look at the second drawing down - a simple small boat. All three drawings are on grids that are shared among them. The top drawing from the end shows the center to the back on the left, and the center to the front on the right. Just look at it for a minute and you can see how the drawings all share among them. To actually exist in real life, a point on one drawing has to also be a point on the shared dimensions of the other drawings. It can get complicated - the Kalmar Nyckel is a tall ship that I worked on during construction. It is 98 feet on deck and we couldn’t make a full sized drawing, so we made one 49 feet long and folded on itself so the very front and the very back were on top of each other. Here is the bad attempt: Anybody can conceive of a pretty looking boat, but how do you draw it so that it can be built. How do you make 2 dimensional drawings that can be translated into a shape that actually exists? Lofting is most frequently associated with boats, and it is the accurate (usually full-size) drawing that combines side view, end view and top view to reconcile the shape into something that can be built. Imagine this - I have 3 grids to draw on, all using a common starting point or baseline. If I draw the side of a boat, a point on its surface will have 2 reference points, length and height. If I then draw it from the top, this drawing will share the length, but add width. If I then draw it from the front, it will have width and height taken from the other 2 drawings. If the point does not share the 3 dimension on all 3 drawings, then you change some dimensions and re-draw until it does. A point on the surface of the boat will have to share its reference dimensions on each of the three drawings. Curved lines are drawn through a series of these points, In practice, the naval architect draws these 3 perspectives, and reconciles dimension and shapes unitl it all works out. But his drawing might be only 2 feet long, so his dimensions, even if taken to 1/64 of an inch, will be within almost 3/8” on a real 40 foot boat - no where near close enough to ensure that shape will be buildable. So once you have made the small 3 drawings full sized you have to start erasing lines, changing dimensions on 2 or 3 of them, and re- drawing curved lines to meet the new dimensions. Once the lines are within about 1/16 to 1/8” of being reconciled on a 40 foot or so boat, you are ready to build. Once you have the drawings all reconciled, you can then make patterns for pieces right off the floor- and they “should” fit right in. Sorry if I muddied the waters so to speak. Ed Minch |
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266128 | Pete | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
Ed, that's the clearest and most succinct explanation I've seen yet - well done. Designer's drawing (or half model) ==> table of offfsets* ==> full-sized lofting ==> wooden patterns of major parts ==> major parts built (for example: keel, stem, transom, knees, breasthook) ==> boat *the table of offsets is just a table with the boat's lines expressed as points in space referenced to a base line. Many times, the builder picked off the points he wanted from the designer's drawing (or more likely, the half model) and just skipped the table of offsets, going directly to the full-sized lofting. Sails were lofted, too - since they're three-dimensional, not flat, objects. Story sticks were used to transfer the actual physical dimension found by lofting the boat/ship between the three views on the lofting. wr/Pete Leenhouts In a message dated 7/19/2018 6:15:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, ruby1638@a... writes: Boy I just took a stab at explaining boat lofting in simple terms and I failed. The Wiki entry is not very satisfying, and I like Phil’s start on it. In short, it is a way to draw a 3 dimensional curved object in two dimensions using 3 drawings that share points between them. It is usually applied to boats, and the full sized drawing were done on the loft floor - hence the name. We still have a sail loft, where pieces of a sail are laid out for assembly on the big, open floor. http://www.douglasbrooksboatbuilding.com/lines.html Look at the second drawing down - a simple small boat. All three drawings are on grids that are shared among them. The top drawing from the end shows the center to the back on the left, and the center to the front on the right. Just look at it for a minute and you can see how the drawings all share among them. To actually exist in real life, a point on one drawing has to also be a point on the shared dimensions of the other drawings. It can get complicated - the Kalmar Nyckel is a tall ship that I worked on during construction. It is 98 feet on deck and we couldn’t make a full sized drawing, so we made one 49 feet long and folded on itself so the very front and the very back were on top of each other. Here is the bad attempt: Anybody can conceive of a pretty looking boat, but how do you draw it so that it can be built. How do you make 2 dimensional drawings that can be translated into a shape that actually exists? Lofting is most frequently associated with boats, and it is the accurate (usually full-size) drawing that combines side view, end view and top view to reconcile the shape into something that can be built. Imagine this - I have 3 grids to draw on, all using a common starting point or baseline. If I draw the side of a boat, a point on its surface will have 2 reference points, length and height. If I then draw it from the top, this drawing will share the length, but add width. If I then draw it from the front, it will have width and height taken from the other 2 drawings. If the point does not share the 3 dimension on all 3 drawings, then you change some dimensions and re-draw until it does. A point on the surface of the boat will have to share its reference dimensions on each of the three drawings. Curved lines are drawn through a series of these points, In practice, the naval architect draws these 3 perspectives, and reconciles dimension and shapes unitl it all works out. But his drawing might be only 2 feet long, so his dimensions, even if taken to 1/64 of an inch, will be within almost 3/8” on a real 40 foot boat - no where near close enough to ensure that shape will be buildable. So once you have made the small 3 drawings full sized you have to start erasing lines, changing dimensions on 2 or 3 of them, and re- drawing curved lines to meet the new dimensions. Once the lines are within about 1/16 to 1/8” of being reconciled on a 40 foot or so boat, you are ready to build. Once you have the drawings all reconciled, you can then make patterns for pieces right off the floor- and they “should” fit right in. Sorry if I muddied the waters so to speak. Ed Minch On Jul 19, 2018, at 8:23 PM, Dragon List |
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266130 | Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
Thanks to all above. I think I see now. Reminds me of running plan and elevation drawings on the same sheet when I studied architecture, each from the other (front, side elevations, plan drawing). Best, Bill Felton, CA |
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266132 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
Bill Having worked with both, the boat stuff is logarithmically more complicated than the building stuff. Ed Minch |
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266133 | Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> | 2018‑07‑20 | Re: Story Sticks |
I can believe that, Ed. Not least due to the curves across 3-dimensions... Best, Bill |
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266143 | Pete | 2018‑07‑21 | Re: Story Sticks, Tick Sticks and Story Poles |
A good source for the use of tick sticks in boatbuilding is found in the 2011 book by Roger Kopanycia entitled "Lofting a Boat: A Step-by-step Manual", which is part of the Adlard Coles Classic boat series (ISBN 978-1-4081-3112-1). The author shows step by step how tick sticks are used, and states ""Note that by using a tick stick, each position is only 'measured' once. If it needs to be transferred, then using a tick stick guarantees consistency, because it eliminates the risk of any measuring errors that could occur if the same pieces of information were 'measured' several times". It's easy to see how story sticks are used much the same way - to transfer the actual physical dimension of something without the need for a tape measure. Author and cabinetmaker Jim Tolpin, who calls them "story poles", goes into great detail about them and how they're used in his 1994 Taunton Press book book "Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets" (ISBN 1-56158-058-9). Pete Leenhouts MV RIPTIDE Flickr photo album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/7215 7678815239754">https://www.flickr.com/photos/old_salt7/albums/72157678815239754< /a> ==================================================================== In a message dated 7/20/2018 11:54:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, dragon01list@g... writes: I can believe that, Ed. Not least due to the curves across 3-dimensions... Best, Bill On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Ed Minch |
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