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150390 GHS <GHS@e...> 2005‑09‑28 Problems with the mailman program.
1.Digests have been set to individual mail
2 The url for options does not work yet, so we can not fix #1 ourselves. 
Has anyone had luck with the "command emails"?
3. Admin  setting for where to return reply to is set to sender I 
believe. Is that intentional? Normally those get set to "list" I believe.

Mike Graf

-- 
Please visit us at http://www.gaudeteforge.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To read the FAQ:
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247903 "David Erickson" <dave@r...> 2014‑05‑16 RE: The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer
Also, not to belabor the point, but the examples I have seen so far in this
thread of patches, were patches to the sole.  My “less traditional” alternative
was a steel wedge attached inside the throat.  i.e. a vertical wedge screwed in
the throat mortise that closes it to the desired gap.

 

From: David Erickson [mailto:dave@r...] 
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:21 AM
To: 'Zachary Dillinger'; 'Adam R. Maxwell'
Cc: 'John Holladay'; 'oldtools@r...'
Subject: RE: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer

 

I’ve seen many resoled planes, often with lignum vitae or ebony.  As to whether
they were old or new resole jobs, couldn’t comment, didn’t look.

 

From: Zachary Dillinger [mailto:zacharydillinger@g...]
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:09 AM
To: Adam R. Maxwell
Cc: John Holladay; oldtools@r...; David Erickson
Subject: Re: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer

 

Exactly. I've seen many old patches on wooden planes but I've never seen an old
resole job.




--
Zachary Dillinger

http://eatoncountywoodworke
r.blogspot.com/

The Eaton County Joinery
www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com <http://www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com>
517-231-3374

 

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Adam R. Maxwell mailto:amaxwell@m...> > wrote:

I'm with you on patching the mouth! I'm also curious why the OP thinks a resole
is more traditional? I mean, it's a plane, not a boot… :)

Adam


> On May 16, 2014, at 10:02, Zachary Dillinger mailto:zacharydillinger@g...> > wrote:
>
> Well, I appear to be in the minority, preferring to patch the mouth. Either
> way will work beautifully if you are careful
247906 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2014‑05‑16 Re: The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer
You're right, I read that as a wedge-shaped piece attached to the sole in the
mouth.

Throat closing wedges (of wood) are more common for low angle planes, I think,
because they have more room for chip clearing. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't
work, of course, but what would keep it from acting as a scraper as the sole
wears?

> On May 16, 2014, at 10:28, David Erickson  wrote:
> 
> Also, not to belabor the point, but the examples I have seen so far in this
thread of patches, were patches to the sole.  My “less traditional” alternative
was a steel wedge attached inside the throat.  i.e. a vertical wedge screwed in
the throat mortise that closes it to the desired gap.
>  
> From: David Erickson [mailto:dave@r...] 
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:21 AM
> To: 'Zachary Dillinger'; 'Adam R. Maxwell'
> Cc: 'John Holladay'; 'oldtools@r...'
> Subject: RE: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer
>  
> I’ve seen many resoled planes, often with lignum vitae or ebony.  As to
whether they were old or new resole jobs, couldn’t comment, didn’t look.
>  
> From: Zachary Dillinger [mailto:zacharydillinger@g...]
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:09 AM
> To: Adam R. Maxwell
> Cc: John Holladay; oldtools@r...; David Erickson
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer
>  
> Exactly. I've seen many old patches on wooden planes but I've never seen an
old resole job.
> 
> --
> Zachary Dillinger
> http://eatoncountywoodwor
ker.blogspot.com/
> The Eaton County Joinery
> www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com
> 517-231-3374
>  
> 
> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Adam R. Maxwell  wrote:
> I'm with you on patching the mouth! I'm also curious why the OP thinks a
resole is more traditional? I mean, it's a plane, not a boot… :)
> 
> Adam
> 
> > On May 16, 2014, at 10:02, Zachary Dillinger  wrote:
> >
> > Well, I appear to be in the minority, preferring to patch the mouth. Either
> > way will work beautifully if you are careful
>
247908 "David Erickson" <dave@r...> 2014‑05‑16 RE: The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer
Good question, the steel wedge would be removed and filed if adjustment was
needed.  Also the wedge would be relieved at the front edge so contact would be
at the rear.

 

From: Adam R. Maxwell [mailto:amaxwell@m...]
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:34 AM
To: David Erickson
Cc: Zachary Dillinger; John Holladay; oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer

 

You're right, I read that as a wedge-shaped piece attached to the sole in the
mouth.

 

Throat closing wedges (of wood) are more common for low angle planes, I think,
because they have more room for chip clearing. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't
work, of course, but what would keep it from acting as a scraper as the sole
wears?


On May 16, 2014, at 10:28, David Erickson mailto:dave@r...> > wrote:

Also, not to belabor the point, but the examples I have seen so far in this
thread of patches, were patches to the sole.  My “less traditional” alternative
was a steel wedge attached inside the throat.  i.e. a vertical wedge screwed in
the throat mortise that closes it to the desired gap.

 

From: David Erickson [mailto:dave@r...] 
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:21 AM
To: 'Zachary Dillinger'; 'Adam R. Maxwell'
Cc: 'John Holladay'; 'oldtools@r... <mailto:oldtools@r...> '
Subject: RE: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer

 

I’ve seen many resoled planes, often with lignum vitae or ebony.  As to whether
they were old or new resole jobs, couldn’t comment, didn’t look.

 

From: Zachary Dillinger [mailto:zacharydillinger@g...]
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 10:09 AM
To: Adam R. Maxwell
Cc: John Holladay; oldtools@r... <mailto:oldtools@r...> ; David Erickson
Subject: Re: [OldTools] The Sole of an Old Beech Jointer

 

Exactly. I've seen many old patches on wooden planes but I've never seen an old
resole job.




--
Zachary Dillinger

http://eatoncountywoodworke
r.blogspot.com/

The Eaton County Joinery
www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com <http://www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com>
517-231-3374

 

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Adam R. Maxwell mailto:amaxwell@m...> > wrote:

I'm with you on patching the mouth! I'm also curious why the OP thinks a resole
is more traditional? I mean, it's a plane, not a boot… :)

Adam


> On May 16, 2014, at 10:02, Zachary Dillinger mailto:zacharydillinger@g...> > wrote:
>
> Well, I appear to be in the minority, preferring to patch the mouth. Either
> way will work beautifully if you are careful
248338 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2014‑06‑04 RE: incannel
John Ruth wrote: "Scott's comment about mounted stones brings up the question as
to whether a
CONICAL mounted stone of the correct diameter and taper might not sharpen an
incannel gouge perfectly in a single contact with the stone."


I've eaten up a number of conical mounted stones for cleaning up the insides of
mushroomed chisel sockets, though I have to confess I've usually bought them
new. In my experience, if a power grinder is the same diameter as the curve I am
trying to make, it grabs and tries to throw the tool off somewhere. So far I've
been lucky and it hasn't thrown it at me. So now, I always grind with a tool of
smaller diameter than the surface I am trying to make; with a conical stone,
with a part of the cone that is smaller.

Tom
248340 Phil Schempf <philschempf@g...> 2014‑06‑04 Re: RE: incannel
I imagine Jim will be along shortly to set us straight, but in the mean
time you can look at his article on sharpening incannels on Wictor's site-

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/jThompson/incannelGouge/incanGauge1.asp<
/a>

Phil


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Thomas Conroy 
wrote:

> John Ruth wrote: "Scott's comment about mounted stones brings up the
> question as to whether a
> CONICAL mounted stone of the correct diameter and taper might not sharpen
> an
> incannel gouge perfectly in a single contact with the stone."
>
>
> I've eaten up a number of conical mounted stones for cleaning up the
> insides of mushroomed chisel sockets, though I have to confess I've usually
> bought them new. In my experience, if a power grinder is the same diameter
> as the curve I am trying to make, it grabs and tries to throw the tool off
> somewhere. So far I've been lucky and it hasn't thrown it at me. So now, I
> always grind with a tool of smaller diameter than the surface I am trying
> to make; with a conical stone, with a part of the cone that is smaller.
>
> Tom
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
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ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
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>
248342 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2014‑06‑05 Re: incannel
>From: Adrian Jones




>As for sharpening, could you make some lengths of wood the exact profile and
>glue on various grits of sandpaper?

Your question triggered a memory. 
In ancient times early Galoots used a very convoluted process to create such a
tool.
The long drawn out explanation is here: 
http://books.google.com/books?id=v98DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA330&dq=m
ake+emery+wheels&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V86PU8zfHIGYyASqzIKoBw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&
q=make%20emery%20wheels&f=false
248343 "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" <rohrabacher@e...> 2014‑06‑05 Re: Was incanel now Thermite and RR tracks
Somewhere in that pop mechanics edition is a segment on Thermite welding 
of RR tracks
Reference back to a conversation on this a while back.

On 6/4/2014 10:03 PM, David Nighswander wrote:
>> From: Adrian Jones
>
>
>
>> As for sharpening, could you make some lengths of wood the exact profile and
>> glue on various grits of sandpaper?
> Your question triggered a memory.
> In ancient times early Galoots used a very convoluted process to create such a
tool.
> The long drawn out explanation is here:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=v98DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA330&dq
=make+emery+wheels&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V86PU8zfHIGYyASqzIKoBw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepag
e&q=make%20emery%20wheels&f=false
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
248345 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2014‑06‑05 Re: incannel
fascinating - I suppose you can re-apply the emory to the base over and over
again once you have that base,

I was most impressed by the “Woven metal costume for electricians”.

Ed Minch





On Jun 4, 2014, at 10:03 PM, David Nighswander  wrote:

> 
> Your question triggered a memory. 
> In ancient times early Galoots used a very convoluted process to create such a
tool.
> The long drawn out explanation is here: 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=v98DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA330&dq=make+em
ery+wheels&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V86PU8zfHIGYyASqzIKoBw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=make
%20emery%20wheels&f=false-------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
248354 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2014‑06‑06 Re: incannel
From: Ed Minch





fascinating - I suppose you can re-apply the emory to the base over and over
again once you have that base,​



I was most impressed by the “Woven metal costume for electricians”.




http://books.google.com/books?id=v98DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA330&dq=m
ake+emery+wheels&hl=en&sa=X&ei=V86PU8zfHIGYyASqzIKoBw&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&
q=make%20emery%20wheels&f=false



The suit is a cool idea. A Faraday cage costume is one way to prevent being
electrocuted. As long as the suit is grounded any charge will travel through the
metal mesh to ground without putting the wearer in the circuit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
/Faraday_cage

Not that I want to put myself at risk by pulling a stunt like that.
249402 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2014‑07‑22 Re: Making Railroad Ties
Jim Crammond wrote: "Chopping a Railroad Tie out of an 8 foot log �paid �10
cents per tie.A good �Tie Hacker could �earn 80 cents a day ...for 8 ties."

They cost more than that now.


http://woodknot.com/public/index.cfm?fuseaction=Home&TheMenuItem=Home


Tom Conroy
ducking and running
263311 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑09‑16 Re: re spar varnish sound off....
On 2017-09-15 6:56 PM, ecoyle@t... wrote:
> the local boat repairer recommended “epifanes”
>
> anyway site is
> > https://www.epifanes.
com/page/clear-finishes
>
> a tad on the pricy side, but I’ve done wooden  vanity countertops that did not
take kindly to the water
>
> for sink cut-outs, you want to make sure that the cuts are sealed too, and
that silicone sealant is meticulously applied., or you will be responding to
your own “call-backs”
>
> Used it a while back to  refinish exterior church doors....If I recall
correctly thinners/sovents are equally pricey

I used epifanes to varnish east &  south-facing window frames a few 
years ago - MLW says 8-9 years! Six coats, starting thin & getting 
thicker each time. Probably should have sanded some and revarnished 
sooner, but round to-its have been scarce around here the past while. 
Anyway, those areas which get the most sun - the sills especially, and 
lower half of the frames - have deteriorated. Those areas need scraping 
and refinishing. But the upper portions, which get much less sun, still 
look good. I'll sand those areas lightly and recoat, if the weather 
breaks sometime soon. Good stuff. Pricey though. Thinners pricey too.

FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263313 gary may 2017‑09‑16 Re: re spar varnish sound off....
Don and Gentle Galoots---

    Varnish for windows---there's an epiphany for me. GOT to be beautiful...
    I use that Epifanes spar varnish too, and I love it on furniture. I used to
use the local spar from Miller Paint, but they quit making 'real' varnish long
ago (and not so long ago, all 'oil' paints)...sad days for me.  I love that
stuff.
   .A commercial boat-builder friend of told me that ALL varnish is expensive,
in terms of time spent putting it on and restoring it, so Epifanes is the best
bargain, being the toughest natural finish in his experience.  It's pretty
tough, all right.
    I haven't used it outdoors for anything, but it is designed to be out there,
in the salt and direct sun, and made to endure tremendous beating and abrasion
too. I'm getting ready to make a bay window to overlook our frog pond in the
backyard, and I'll varnish that---it'll be under the eaves, and won't see much
direct sun so it'll surely outlast my ass.
    btw, I use regular paint thinner or turpentine---also at the recommendation
of my boat-builder buddy--works fine for me.  I have benches and table tops that
look as good as they did when the varnish cured. And in some cases, that's 30+
years, though that'd be Miller's brew.....
thanks Don, and best to all galoots everywhere---gam in OlyWa/USA

How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen

      From: Don Schwartz 
 To: oldtools@s... 
 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 7:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] re spar varnish sound off....
   
On 2017-09-15 6:56 PM, ecoyle@t... wrote:
> the local boat repairer recommended “epifanes”
>
> anyway site is
> > https://www.epifanes.
com/page/clear-finishes
>
> a tad on the pricy side, but I’ve done wooden  vanity countertops that did not
take kindly to the water
>
> for sink cut-outs, you want to make sure that the cuts are sealed too, and
that silicone sealant is meticulously applied., or you will be responding to
your own “call-backs”
>
> Used it a while back to  refinish exterior church doors....If I recall
correctly thinners/sovents are equally pricey

I used epifanes to varnish east &  south-facing window frames a few 
years ago - MLW says 8-9 years! Six coats, starting thin & getting 
thicker each time. Probably should have sanded some and revarnished 
sooner, but round to-its have been scarce around here the past while. 
Anyway, those areas which get the most sun - the sills especially, and 
lower half of the frames - have deteriorated. Those areas need scraping 
and refinishing. But the upper portions, which get much less sun, still 
look good. I'll sand those areas lightly and recoat, if the weather 
breaks sometime soon. Good stuff. Pricey though. Thinners pricey too.

FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
263314 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑09‑16 Re: re spar varnish sound off....
I have a friend who is a professional finisher, and she will take on a boat once
in a while.  Her finishes are like mirrors.  IIRC her first coat is 50/50 of
Intelux Schooner varnish and mineral spirits, then 2 coats full strength, then a
light sand to get rid of goobers, then 2 coats with a splash of Penetrol in it.
Not a brush stroke in site.  Always high gloss- ‘cause it’s a boat!

Another friend had a 72 foot William Hand designed motor sailor that he restored
in the late 70’s and cruised the Carribean and East Coast and sold in after
about 2000. He renamed it the William Hand because it was so typical of the
designer’s work.  Here it is for sale after another restoration:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1933/William-Hand-
motorsailer-2685698/South-Freeport/ME/United-States#.Wb1_5hTtFEc

Our boat takes 1 quart of varnish per session for one coat on the mast and two
on the deck trim.  His boat took 70 quarts for 3 coats (that’s 18 gallons) and
he put it on with a roller.

Ed Minch
263317 Chuck Taylor 2017‑09‑17 Re: re spar varnish sound off....
Gentle Galoots,

One point about spar varnishes that may get overlooked:  Spar varnishes intended
for marine applications contain UV inhibitors to protect the finish against
ultraviolet light. The UV inhibitors "wear out" with exposure to sunlight.
That's why new varnish needs to be applied on a regular basis (to replace the UV
inhibitors). In the Puget Sound region, I get away with 2 coats every 2 years (I
keep my boat under cover when not in use). In Florida I'm told they need to
refresh varnish on boats every 6 months. Once a year is enough in most places.
YMMV.

For non-marine use it depends on how much sun exposure there is.

Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle
where we are getting some much-needed rain after a long, dry summer
263371 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑09‑23 Re: Difficult project fluting
On 2017-09-22 7:40 PM, Joseph Sullivan wrote:
> how does one turn an elliptical shape?


This is not a trivial problem, and may be well-documented somewhere. I 
believe you need to use multiple centers (for off-centre turning), but 
how you calculate the spacing of the centers to produce the desired 
ellipse is beyond my comprehension. Suggest you search printed sources 
and youtube for 'woodturning ellipse' for ideas. There are eccentric 
chucks and apparently also an ellipse chuck, but there may be other 
ideas that will inspire you. It's been done before - you just have to 
research til you find a solution or reinvent the wheel. Have fun!

As for the fluting, a pair of dividers, a flexible rule and a few 
carving gouges should be all you need - assuming you already have the 
patience and steady hands!

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263393 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑09‑30 Re: Miller's Falls 120b handle?
On 2017-09-29 7:12 PM, Bill Traynor wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Anyone know where I might obtain a side handle for a Miller's Falls 
> 120B breast drill? 

Somewhere on this planet there is a mountain of egg beater and breast 
drill side handles - like the floating plastic island out in the Pacific.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263395 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2017‑09‑30 Re: Miller's Falls 120b handle?
Don and The Porch

Right next to the mountain of breast drill handles is a smaller mountain of lost
breast plates.

There's a foothill of missing chuck jaws.

To paraphrase Michael Dunbar, any inexpensive useful looking antique took parts
should be bought on sight. If you don't use them, they can be eBay'ed or taken
to a swap meet.

John Ruth
Off to a flea market!


Se
263396 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑09‑30 Re: Miller's Falls 120b handle?
They live on the planet of lost socks

Ed Minch
263533 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑10‑13 Re: best way to bind a stump
On 2017-10-13 8:49 AM, Joseph Sullivan wrote:
> Friends:
>
> The Bois d'Arc stump on which I rest my anvil has split.  It is about 18
inches in diameter.  What is the best way to solidly and permanently bind it
together?
>
> Joe
>
> Joseph Sullivan
>
Along with all the other great suggestions, you might have a dispensing 
tin or two of flexible metal strapping which come with their own 
hollow-rectangular clips and a little ratcheting strap wrench for 
tightening. Can't recall what the stuff is called (and I'm 2 days 
driving from home), but they are quite strong and useful for containing 
irregular shapes. A kind of old-school zip tie!

Don

-- 
Friday the 13th is just a dumb superstition. At least that’s what my horoscope
said.
– Matt Nedostup

"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263715 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑10‑28 Re: Patina?
On 2017-10-27 4:33 PM, Mike Lynd via OldTools wrote:
> And the correct pronunciation is.........
>
> p'TEENǝ
>
> or
>
> PATinnǝ?


The Wiktionary suggests the two illustrate yet another difference 
between English as spoken in Britain and as it's spoken in USA. In 
Britain, the emphasis is apparently on the first syllable, whereas in 
America it's on the second. The latter is arguably closer to the French 
'patine' , from which it is derived (or so they say), though the 'hard' 
EE sound would not be. In my experience here in Canada, English speakers 
favour the American emphasis. As an aside, it appears the default 
spell-checker in Thunderbird is American-based: it highlights my 
spelling of 'favour'. I'll have to fix that!


FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263722 Thomas Conroy 2017‑10‑30 Re: Patina?
Mike Lynd wrote: "I always thought that the second one was the correct one with
the emphasis
on the first syllable, but I hear the first one more and more these days. I
await the decision of the Porch."

This is the magic of the word "patina." There are at least three pronunciations
(paTEENa, paTYNEa, PATinna), and by appropriate choice you can generally make
yourself sound snooty and your customer (excuse me, "client") feel like an
undereducated boor. This is in preparation for charging at least five times
going rate for an object (excuse me, "objet.") On the other hand, by matching
the pronunciation of a more sophisticated client you can encourage feelings of
collegiality and lure him into thinking you are on the same side, making it
easier to slip him a piece that is, well, "sophisticated" in the rare book
meaning (a polite euphemism for "faked up a bit", Jeff). And since the word
means, objectively, just "old surface" it can be used to describe anything form
the smooth, beautiful surface left by wear and the rubbing of the hand on
natural stable oxidation, through deliberate new oxidation for the sake of
brilliant colors, to a disgusting grotty old coating of soil, corrosion, and
filth. The word "patina" is in fact a pretty good hype alert, not a diagnostic
all by itself but a warning to be on your toes.
Tom Conroy
harrumphing and schwaless, a day or two late.
263723 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑10‑30 Re: Stratton Brothers Level
On 2017-10-29 4:45 PM, Brent A Kinsey wrote:
> I suppose it is possible that the vial became broken at some point and the
prior owner meticulously cleaned out the vee notch and pared away any trace of
plaster, although I think this unlikely.


Brent:

Perhaps a prior owner cleaned out the plaster etc , intending to insert 
a new vial, as you intend, but for some reason failed to do so. Death, 
incapacity etc sometimes intervene. I have wondered what MLW would do 
should she have to deal with the bits & bobs of my projects in progress. 
I rather doubt she would seek out missing parts.. .


FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263754 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑02 Re: Free old box knife w/out retractable blade
On 2017-11-02 5:56 AM, Gye Greene wrote:
> I have enough tools from him (including both of my saw sets), and the
> non-retractable blade scares me.;)

I fit mine into a length of suitably-sized heavy cardboard tubing. I 
find that stuff very useful, especially when working outside of the 
shop. Great for knives, pad saw, drywall saw, ice pick, etc. - and cheap!

FWIW
Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263771 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑02 Re: New galoot
On 2017-11-02 3:07 PM, Mick Dowling wrote:
> Welcome aboard. There are quite a few British, and Australians on the list,
> some New Zealanders also, best you only take advice from us to help you out
> with English.
>
> Mick Dowling
> Melbourne


Ahem. Canadians first! You'll have a chance understanding us.

Don, in Calgary, where winter is setting in...

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263773 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑02 Re: New galoot
On 2017-11-02 4:25 PM, bridger@b... wrote:
> you can run, but you can't hide.

In the outback, he could hide forever...

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263778 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2017‑11‑03 Re: New galoot
Excuse me, but,

The first order of business is to say ‘Welcome' to Rick, evidently someone of
refinement and good taste,  for whom a rocking chair is ready over here on the
quality end of the porch, overlooking the river.  Cool refreshing throat
lubrication is ever available from our perpetually renewed stocks of anything at
all, and the conversation covers everything but religion and politics in flowing
and erudite terms.

Secondly.. 
You may have noted some of our colonial friends chattering 
> Sorry about the long presentation and i'm very glad that I found you guys
> !!
> 
> P.S. Sorry about my english, My native language is french, don't hesitate
> to correct me if you see mistakes, I want to write english better :)
> 
> Rick.

There - you said it.  You want to write english better.  The clue is in the
name,  English.  From England. From whence so much civilisation spread across
the world - after we had slaughtered any inhabitants, of course.  The only place
for good advice oin the matter is from this side of the Atlantic.
You can tell we’re more sophisticated than what our colonial cousins are,
because no one had the good grace to mention that, unlike French, the verb comes
first - so “I want to write English better”   would be “I want to write better
English”
Now, given that our English court had French as the official language after we
were invaded, I have no idea why we did that, perhaps the many traps we have in
English is just so we can tell when someone ‘isn’t from round here’
Not that I care, I’m fro’ Yorkshire, so most of my language is a hangover from
the Viking invaders, with a bit of Scots here and there, and some Anglo-Saxon.

But, whatever the language, the sentiment is the same -  You’re welcome here.  
Incidentally, I once sent a galootaclaus victim some beer and elephant dung.
Its not the value that matters.
oh, for the avoidance of doubt, the dung came with seed for a hardwood -
(perfect growing medium)  and the bottle of fine english beer was to while away
the time whilst waiting for your timber to grow. The beer would have been “Old
Peculiar” probably, as the name suits us - and it’s a fine beer on draught,
especially at the ‘Red Lion’ on Blakey Ridge.

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
in Northumbria

- and of course, we all have a common code of speech here anyway, made of
numbers, tooth counts, grit sizes, and friendly banter.
263782 Gye Greene <gyegreene@g...> 2017‑11‑03 Re: Free old box knife w/out retractable blade
Kirk, Don, and others:  good points about tool organization.

Partly this is just my tiny way of sending tools I ain't never gonna use
back into the wild.  ;)


I also have about eight near-identical backsaws -- and about eight very
similar TPI crosscut saws -- that I probably need to sort through and give
away about half, if not more.

The hammers, however, totally stay.

This --
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Y0YtyQRaE-s/UePtEG50OeI/AAAAAAAA
BeY/tnBZcXJSDS4/s1600/hamrs.JPG
--  is about half of my stash of hammers:  I found another stash of them
after I took the photo, and couldn't be bothered to re-shoot.  And that
tally excludes about six mallets, which I claim to be distinct from
"hammers".   (More hammers than some Galoots; fewer than others.)


--Travis
263859 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑12 Re: website tool descriptions
On 2017-11-11 7:54 PM, Derek Cohen wrote:
> Don asked
>
> 
> Yes it is you:)
>
> The blade is skewed. Not a lot, tho’. Look at the sides of the blade
(different pics) - one side is wider than the other. Look at the sole/mouth
carefully. The angle from which the picture was taken reduces the skew, but it
is there. Zoom in. You will see it.
>
> Regards from Perth
>
> Derek
>
> https://www.jimbodetools.com/collections/whats-new/products/rare-skewed-
norris-no-18-shoulder-plane-77016u  <https://www.jimbodetools.com/collections
/whats-new/products/rare-skewed-norris-no-18-shoulder-plane-77016u>
>
Way too subtle for me. Looking at the pic of the sole with the image 
zoomed, it seems to me that the edges of the mouth are parallel to the 
trailing edge of the sole. That says to me there's no skewing.

FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263860 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑11‑12 Re: website tool descriptions
What he said.  Skewing is usually in the 20-25° range and if this is skewed it
is only a couple of degrees.

Ed Minch
263861 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2017‑11‑12 Re: website tool descriptions
Yeah, what would be the purpose of a 3 degree skew?  I don’t think this
plane satisfies the usual definition of what I would consider a skew
plane.  I think this was simply an error.
Cheers from Frigid Montréal (on the last morning of the conference)
Claudio
263877 Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> 2017‑11‑12 Re: website tool descriptions
Did anyone try to ask Jim? I'm sure he would tell you if it's skewed
or if they description is in error.

Josh
263884 Peter McBride <peter_mcbride@b...> 2017‑11‑12 Re: website tool descriptions
I've about half a dozen skew mouth rebate shoulder type planes, and one of the
hardest things to do is get a picture that shows the skew, other than taking the
pic directly Square to the base. One lovely little skew Mathieson came to me
because "even I" thought it was straight from all the pics on evilbay. I wanted
it for the tiny size...On opening it up I saw the blade packed separate and
thought what dummy sharpened that!!
Cheers,
Peter
263889 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑12 Re: Ozone and musty antique furniture
On 2017-11-12 12:40 PM, Michael Parrish wrote:
> I have a few antique wooden furniture items, including a 80-100 year old
thread cabinet that I inherited from my dear grandmother.  They've unfortunately
been living in my garage for the last year because I have a musty odor that I
can't seem to get rid of. Strictly

Not sure this will work, but it would be cheap and easy to try. Remove 
the cabinet from the garage. Fill the cabinet drawers with dry, loosely 
crumpled clean newspaper. Give it some time, then replace the newspaper. 
If this brings little joy, build a plastic tent around the cabinet, and 
put saucers of baking soda in the drawers and under the cabinet. 
Maximize the surface area of the baking soda exposed to the air. Replace 
baking soda after a week or so. If that doesn't do it, try to get your 
hands on some activated carbon, and use it the same way as the baking soda.

IF that fails too, you might consider resorting to the expensive option

http
://conservationresources.com/Main/section_15/section15_09.htm

FWIW

Don, who once had success with newspaper & baking soda

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
263890 William Ghio <bghio@m...> 2017‑11‑13 Re: Ozone and musty antique furniture
> On Nov 12, 2017, at 5:50 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> 
> On 2017-11-12 12:40 PM, Michael Parrish wrote:
>> I have a few antique wooden furniture items, including a 80-100 year old
thread cabinet that I inherited from my dear grandmother.  They've unfortunately
been living in my garage for the last year because I have a musty odor that I
can't seem to get rid of. Strictly
> 
> Not sure this will work, but it would be cheap and easy to try. Remove the
cabinet from the garage. Fill the cabinet drawers with dry, loosely crumpled
clean newspaper. Give it some time, then replace the newspaper. If this brings
little joy, build a plastic tent around the cabinet, and put saucers of baking
soda in the drawers and under the cabinet. Maximize the surface area of the
baking soda exposed to the air. Replace baking soda after a week or so. If that
doesn't do it, try to get your hands on some activated carbon, and use it the
same way as the baking soda.
> 
> IF that fails too, you might consider resorting to the expensive option
> 
> > 
http://conservationresources.com/Main/section_15/section15_09.htm
> 

I had such an issue and was recommended to flush w/ vinegar and then trays of
ground coffee. Took a while and another pound of coffee, but it worked.

Bill
263922 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑11‑13 Re: Interesting video on wooden mitre plane
On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:

> I was quite interested in this, but I think I'll build a smoother first.
>
> > https://www.youtube.co
m/watch?v=4mfd_YmOI2M



 Steve Knight built those mouth closers into his planes. [ I just picked up
a used Jointer last week (Thanks Joe) to add to the fleet]

Here's the mouth of my smoother.  His you just slide up, rather than plane
the back side.
https://kirkh
mb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Planes/i-gnWJqwP

And the underside of the same plane
https://kirkh
mb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Planes/i-RQDG8DZ

-- 
Kirk Eppler, just finishing lunch and a presentation with minutes to spare.
263923 <gtgrouch@r...> 2017‑11‑13 Re: Interesting video on wooden mitre plane
That has to leave a fabulous surface. Can you read a newspaper through the
shavings?

Thanks for sharing, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

(who now has yet another tool on the 'to find' list)
---- Kirk Eppler  wrote: 

=============
On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:40 PM,  wrote:

> I was quite interested in this, but I think I'll build a smoother first.
>
> > https://www.youtube.co
m/watch?v=4mfd_YmOI2M



 Steve Knight built those mouth closers into his planes. [ I just picked up
a used Jointer last week (Thanks Joe) to add to the fleet]

Here's the mouth of my smoother.  His you just slide up, rather than plane
the back side.
https://kirkh
mb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Planes/i-gnWJqwP

And the underside of the same plane
https://kirkh
mb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Planes/i-RQDG8DZ

-- 
Kirk Eppler, just finishing lunch and a presentation with minutes to spare.
263953 Darrell & Kathy <larchmont@s...> 2017‑11‑15 Re: website tool descriptions
Galoots
nothing to add except a digression, down memory lane...

A fair number of years ago a few of us local Galoots were at a
tool auction, and there were DOZENS of shoulder planes.
One of them was skewed, and yeah, it was like 20-25 degrees.
Really obvious.
As the auctioneer worked his way through the shoulder planes
he was going on choice in order.  So if you won lot X you had to
say how many you wanted at that price, and then they would
move on to the next unsold lot number.  A bit confusing for some
but not for Craig.  He noted the lot# of the skewed plane, and
bid on the one just before it.  The auctioneer says "How many?"
and Craig says quite deliberately "Two please".  The handler
picked up the pair of planes and everyone saw the very obvious
skewed mouth.  A chorus of groans erupted from the bidders
who had all been waiting on this lot.  We bin had.

Nicely played, Craig.  Nicely played.


On 12/11/2017 4:49 AM, Ed Minch wrote:
> What he said.  Skewing is usually in the 20-25° range and if this is  > skewed
it is only a couple of degrees. > > Ed Minch > > > > >> On Nov 12,
2017, at 1:50 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote: >> >> Way too subtle for 
me. Looking at the pic of the sole with the >> image zoomed, it seems to me that
the edges of the mouth are >> parallel to the trailing edge of the sole. That 
says to me there's >> no skewing. >> >> FWIW >> >> Don >
-- 
Darrell LaRue
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User
263958 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2017‑11‑15 Re: website tool descriptions
Darrell & Kathy wrote:
> Galoots
> nothing to add except a digression, down memory lane...
>
> A fair number of years ago a few of us local Galoots were at a
> tool auction, and there were DOZENS of shoulder planes.
> One of them was skewed, and yeah, it was like 20-25 degrees.
> Really obvious.
> As the auctioneer worked his way through the shoulder planes
> he was going on choice in order.  So if you won lot X you had to
> say how many you wanted at that price, and then they would
> move on to the next unsold lot number.  A bit confusing for some
> but not for Craig.  He noted the lot# of the skewed plane, and
> bid on the one just before it.  The auctioneer says "How many?"
> and Craig says quite deliberately "Two please".  The handler
> picked up the pair of planes and everyone saw the very obvious
> skewed mouth.  A chorus of groans erupted from the bidders
> who had all been waiting on this lot.  We bin had.
>
> Nicely played, Craig.  Nicely played.

In fairness the auctioneer made a HUGE mistake. Craig merely
exploited it. The process the auctioneer invoked is called (in the UK)
selling "with the option".

It's often used when selling (say) 30 pieces of timber.

(It can be important to know this phrase, and what it means, when attending an
auction)

   BugBear
263959 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑11‑15 Re: website tool descriptions
Her in the mid-Atlantic they offer “choice” based on the whole group.  If there
is one item that is exceptional, it drives the price for the first round, and
the winning bid can take as many out of the group as she wants.  I recently
bought a Swan drawknife out of a group of about 75 laid out on a table - the
first bid was $60 IIRC, by the time it got to $10 fI was in, and later they were
going in lots of 5 for $20.

Ed Minch
264045 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑25 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
On 2017-11-25 2:15 PM, bridger@b... wrote:
> charge, even the residual one that inevitably results from being hung
> from a magnetic tool bar. Stray metal particles and all that,
> dontchaknow.


Those sharp bits of steel can do a lot of harm to your fingers if they 
get attached to a chisel, for instance.

And as I learned the other day, those rare earth magnets can do 
considerable damage on their own, not just by pinching, but by breaking 
pinching and cutting all at once. Ouch!

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264067 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑27 Re: re metal files storage.
Eric

As a student, I worked at Dominion Bridge in Winnipeg over several 
summers , and one 17 month stint between 1st & 2nd years - a heavy steel 
plant with some 500 or more employees, working 3 shifts most times - now 
sadly an occasional movie set, I'm told. My father was Lead Machinist 
for many years and then Foreman of the Machine Shop. Each Machinist, 
Lathe Operator or Mechanic had his own set of tools in a chest or 
chests. But the supply of tools of all kinds for the factory was in the 
Stores Dept, where all manner of tools and supplies were stored in ranks 
of open wooden bin shelving as high as a man could reach, several aisles 
of them. Basically just ranks of tall, painted wooden units with shelves 
of varied length, back to back and side by each Everything was to be had 
there - including but not limited to boots, gloves, hardhats, tape 
measures and ends, wrenches and hammers, brooms, shovels, brushes & 
dustpans, welding and painting equipment & supplies, drilling fluids, 
paints and compressor equipment, acids for the pickling tank, zinc bars 
for galvanizing, hoist chains, pry bars, all sorts of cleaning supplies, 
rivets, nuts & bolts, stamp sets, Machine Shop supplies, exotic steels 
and other metals for machining, electrical & hydraulic equipment and 
parts, belts for some of the big old punches and presses, punches, 
drills, teeth inserts for big cold saws, clamps of various sorts, steel 
strapping and machines, tips for the burning machines, office supplies 
for the Foremen, and likely a supply of girlie calendars! Naturally, 
heavy stuff was stored on pallets. Everything out in the open for easy 
access. But the only folks who could get in there were the Stores staff, 
fork lift operators, Foremen and Managers.

Don
264068 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑11‑27 Re: re metal files storage.
Don

Will you inherit one of each?

Ed Minch
264072 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑11‑27 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
I hate magnetized tools.  I hate it so much that I got myself a few 
hundred yards of magnet wire and made a nice big demagnetizing 
platter.   It's so powerful that ya gotta leave yer wallet  about 2 feet 
away, but it does the job.
264077 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2017‑11‑27 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
I assume you need time for a proper write-up. Would love all the details.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
264078 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2017‑11‑27 Re: re metal files storage.
Yep, I also worked in an Ornamental Iron factory with hundreds of employees
in Toronto.  Only the Foremen and Managers could get into Central Tool
Supply, probably because everyone would probably just help themselves to
anything that wasn't welded down.  I was just a teenager who didn't know
shit, but sometimes even stuff that was welded down would disappear!
(Including some of the welding machines!)
 This was way before Craig's List and the like, and there were always guys
selling stuff cheap from their cars.  Nobody ever asked 'where did this
come from' when buying a quality tool or cutter for pennies on the dollar
though, eh?

   I've even had issues as the boss of my own place, having to institute
rules like double locks  for the narcotics safe (as in two nurses have to
sign for each drug removal from the safe), and I can't tell you how many
hundred dollar pairs of scissors and needle holders have been "lost in the
laundry".   I guess people don't think of it as stealing if the person who
is robbed has a nicer car or a nicer house?
  One good story:  The guys who broke into my clinic and cracked open the
safe got caught about two or three years later- the cops took fingerprints
at the scene and one of the guys got arrested years later for something
unrelated, and his fingerprint check turned on some kind of alarm.  This
guy had left his finger prints all over some backup CD's in my safe
(remember those?) while he was looking for cash.  He gave up the other guy
in exchange for something as I recall (the cop called me- I was
impressed!).  Sometimes cops come through- Hey- if there are any cops on
this list- thanks! This was maybe 20 years ago, but that feeling of
violation never really goes away until the persons responsible are caught.

Cheers
Claudio
264085 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2017‑11‑28 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
> On Nov 27, 2017, at 11:37 , Matthew Groves  wrote:
> 
> I assume you need time for a proper write-up. Would love all the details.

Same. Oldtool related insofar as the GITs have magnetized
some of my tools, since I was foolish enough to leave
magnets lying around the bench. Previous advice (here?)
to whack the tool with a hammer was ineffective.

-- 
Adam
264087 Chuck Taylor 2017‑11‑28 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
What is the downside to having a wood chisel magnetized? I store many of mine on
a magnetic rack and haven't noticed a downside yet.
Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle



> On Nov 27, 2017, at 11:37 , Matthew Groves  wrote:
> 
> I assume you need time for a proper write-up. Would love all the details.

Same. Oldtool related insofar as the GITs have magnetized
some of my tools, since I was foolish enough to leave
magnets lying around the bench....

-- 
Adam

   

|  | Virus-free. www.avast.com  |
264088 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2017‑11‑28 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
> On Nov 27, 2017, at 19:24 , Chuck Taylor  wrote:
> 
> What is the downside to having a wood chisel magnetized? I store many of mine
on a magnetic rack and haven't noticed a downside yet.

Picking up metal filings? That's what my screwdrivers
do, at least, and it drives me crazy when there's a
glob stuck to the blade. "Clean your bench, savage,"
might be an option, but let's not get carried away.

Adam
(currently unpacking the shop after a move, so this is
even more academic than usual)
264089 Erik Levin 2017‑11‑28 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
Chuck Taylor asked:> What is the downside to having a wood chisel magnetized? 
The downside to having any tool magnetized is that they will attract and hold
chips and grindings of any ferromagnetic material. With a chisel, the risk is
then grindings from dressing the edge staying on the surface to be deposited on
or into the surface being worked, and larger chips may hang in the surface and
then damage the edge. Similar risks hold for plane irons.


Is it a major concern? Probably not in practice. Is it a concern? yup. Is it
annoying for those of us that work metal as well as cellulose/lignin composites,
meaning that there are often chips and fines of ferrous material around? Quite.

As for files, a magnetized file is essentially impossible to keep clean enough
to do fine work. The gullets will fill with near-unremovable ferromagnetic
detritus. A demag operation is needed to get the file clean.


*** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
264094 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2017‑11‑28 Re: file storage.....as in metal files
> > What is the downside to having a wood chisel magnetized?
> The downside to having any tool magnetized is that they will attract and
hold chips and grindings of any ferromagnetic material.

Theoretically perhaps, but I've noted that the good Mary May keeps her
gouges on magnetic strips on her shop wall.  Maybe it's not an issue that
close to the equator, where the velocity due to the earth's rotation is
larger, making the magnetic domains dizzy and disoriented.

Just a guess.

cur - enjoying the day, having spent some time packing and addressing a
package to be sent to that part of the world.
264095 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑11‑28 Re: (no subject)
On 2017-11-28 7:38 AM, gtgrouch@r... wrote:
> Found something interesting on youtube. It's a bit too ambitious for me!
>
> >     https://www.youtub
e.com/watch?v=ueFiy-uxI4Y
>
> Still, it's nice to see that some skills are still around.


Tremendous. I was especially impressed with the attention to aesthetics 
in their work - the shaping of the dugout and the skillful texturing of 
surfaces. That paddle was simply gorgeous!

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264096 <gtgrouch@r...> 2017‑11‑28 Re: Dugout Canoe
I'm an idiot. Here's a repost with subject. Sorry about that. -GK
264154 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑08 Re: Yew carving and weird email
On 2017-12-07 4:12 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:
> Here is what I was making. Has anyone ever seen this tool head? It has 
> a patent marking.
> No idea what the inventor was thinking, maybe a fire tool? I am 
> planning to use it for close quarter but heavy gardening tasks.

> http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/handl
ecarving2.jpg
>

Scott:

Maybe it's the original Hoe Dag 

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Garden/page.aspx?p=69499&cat=2,44823&ap=1


FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264162 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑10 Re: I've finally got one bowl. or is it ball?
On 2017-12-09 2:53 PM, yorkshireman@y... wrote:
> Yes, after years and years, We’ve just been up in the Borders  (Reiver
country, Paddy)   and came across an antique place which had some forlorn wooden
bowls - 3 of them. and I gave up the search.
>
> SWMBO was buying a bit of cut glass, and I managed to tack one bowl onto the
deal.
>
> So now I have a lignum vitae bowl  -  For our American members, bowls does not
have lanes, ten pins, any pins in fact.  It is played on a grassy square, one
with a camber, using wooden bowls which are weighted to not run true.  You are
given 2 or 4 bowls, and have to judge the camber of the green and the bias of
your bowl and the degree of friction of the grass be it wet or dry.
>   A game of skill, relaxation, sunshine, good ale, and fine talk.   Too
important to be interrupted for approaching Armadas bent on invasion and all
that sort of thing.
>
> Anyway, the point is that a redundant, wooden bowl, is almost a mallet head.
Not many of them about these days, as they are made of a composition material
these days.   Way back when I lived in Suffolk, and set up shop in the one room
of our cottage (Can’t think why she married me)  I worked at a place which had
been a pub.  It still had its bowling green, and a greenkeeprs shed, and the
locals kept and used the green.  In the shed were a number (lots) of ancient
redundant wooden bowls.  We used them at lunchtimes in summer.  I didn’t know
then that they were of value, a dying breed, and I could have been given them
for nothing.
>
> Fast forward a half century - no, less - my Mother in Law was a county bowls
player, and asked her, as she went around so many bowling greens to keep an eye
out for old wooden bowls “Yes, they often have some.” she said - but bowls never
came to visit with her.
>
> but now I have a one of my own.  And I have a question for the porch.
>
> Does anyone have any knowledge or advice about making a dead bowl into a fine
and living again mallet?
>
>
> Richard Wilson
> Northumbrian Galoot

Richard:

I too have some bowls - eight of them ! The first set, a ladies set I 
believe, of small diameter, came from an antique shop at a tolerable 
price after several rounds of bargaining.  I have used part of one to 
repair some old tools. The second set came about because I felt the 
first ones were too small for mallet-making, though in retrospect, a 
heavy, smaller mallet might be nice! This set came bus freight from a 
friend of a friend, a former bowler who had given up the game and was 
moving cross-country. I got them for the price of a small donation to 
his bowls club! I have yet to do anything with them. I like to think 
they're acclimating. Eventually one or two will become mallets.

The thing I have noticed is that these bowls of mine invariably have the 
pith running right through them. And although some show minor splits, 
they are all intact bowls. So when I find the round to-it over in the 
turnings department, I will honour grain orientation. Also, the one I 
cut for restoration was positively greasy stuff, so I would incline to a 
handle joint which gives some mechanical strength. I'd be interested to 
know what wood you choose for the handle, as well as how the lignum 
turns - i.e. gouge & skew or scraper?

You might find the Peter Maddex Ball-o-matic 2000 handy for holding the 
bowl at some point.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264255 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑15 Re: Venice Arsenal
On 2017-12-15 3:13 PM, Ed Minch wrote:
> The idea of building a ship in a day - even a small one - has been poking at
me for the last few days.  There are just too many tasks to be completed to fit
them into a day,  So I thought about the Liberty ships of WWII.  There were a
lot of yards building these things, and even though they got it down to about 40
days start to finish, they could say they were completing 3 a day.
>
> So maybe the one-day represented how often one was finished, not how long it
took to build one.

Yes. It's clear from the links I sent that they had a production line 
going ( on a canal ), as well as specialist departments making rope, 
oars, masts and other components.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness
264389 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑23 Re: auger forging
On 2017-12-22 9:53 PM, John Leyden wrote:
> There’s a video of a modern factory making augers at:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GdQJCuLjSg
<https://www.youtube.com/w
atch?v=7GdQJCuLjSg>
>
> Even so, it still seems to require a substantial amount of hand work.


Indeed. It seems to follow very closely the description I've read. BTW I 
realized last night that I was confused. Tthe double twist style may 
actually be easier to make than the solid center Irwin style. And, the 
single twist hollow style may be easiest of the three.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264409 gary may 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Yeah Don, and GGs--
   I may be dim, but I've been puzzled for years on how (and why) they do that
solid-center auger. I have several sets of vintage Irwins and some solid-center
bits in large diameters made recently with bitstocks *designed* to be sawn off
if desired (revealing a hex shank)  but I still don't get the concept.  The
drawn-out and twisted rod seems perfectly adequate and super-simple. What am I
missing?
                     EMWTK--gam in OlyWA/USA
 
     PS Happy New Year to all galoots, everywhere. 

How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen

      From: Don Schwartz 
 To: oldtools@s... 
 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 6:30 AM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] auger forging
   
On 2017-12-22 9:53 PM, John Leyden wrote:
> There’s a video of a modern factory making augers at:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GdQJCuLjSg
<https://www.youtube.com/w
atch?v=7GdQJCuLjSg>
>
> Even so, it still seems to require a substantial amount of hand work.


Indeed. It seems to follow very closely the description I've read. BTW I 
realized last night that I was confused. Tthe double twist style may 
actually be easier to make than the solid center Irwin style. And, the 
single twist hollow style may be easiest of the three.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder

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OldTools@s...
264410 Erik Levin 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Gary May inquired:

>I've been puzzled for years on how (and why) they do that
>solid-center auger. I have several sets of vintage Irwins and some solid-center
>bits in large diameters made recently with bitstocks *designed* to be sawn off
>if desired (revealing a hex shank)  but I still don't get the concept.  The
>drawn-out and twisted rod seems perfectly adequate and super-simple.

I know enough about how things are made to be aware of my ignorance and avoid
making wild guesses. As to the why, I am not similarly encumbered. SO, my
thoughts on the why:


1) chip clearance (single flute types)- The solid center I have are all single
flute (On those with a second cutting edge, the second ends after one turn or
so). I know there are other types, but these clear chips very well.

b) The core adds stiffness. It any point along a twisted bit, the thin way is
very thin, and the bits do flex a fair bit. I would guess that the solid core
are also more resistant to wind-up due to the additional axial strength. With a
brace, the flex in use can be annoying, and with a modern powered drive (I don't
have one at home, but at an old job we powered the larger machines with flat
belts), the wind-up can be significant. When they wind-up enough, twisted bits
tend to do the 'phone cord' thing and knot up.


Yup. 
 *** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply
address(es) may not match the originating address
264411 John Leyden <leydenjl@g...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Gary inquires about the rationale for solid center augers.

My (possibly incorrect/incomplete) understanding is that solid center augers are
supposed to be less likely to flex when drilling very long/deep holes.
Therefore, I infer that they may also be able to handle more torque than a twist
auger bit might (as when driven by a power drill). As far as how they are made I
have no knowledge, but they look like they could be either milled from solid bar
or forged/swaged.

On a related note, another galoot asked me off-list whether the company that had
the auger factory in the video I mentioned the other day was still in business.
Apparently it is not. The company was Clico, of Sheffield, and it looks like it
went out of business almost exactly three years ago.   :-(

John
264412 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Ten years ago they were the only manufacturer we could find of reasonably
priced, new spoon bits - so I have a set.  I’ll bet there are more makers now.

Ed Minch
264413 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
> On Dec 24, 2017, at 3:27 PM, John Leyden  wrote:
> 
> My (possibly incorrect/incomplete) understanding is that solid center augers
are supposed to be less likely to flex when drilling very long/deep holes.
Therefore, I infer that they may also be able to handle more torque than a twist
auger bit might (as when driven by a power drill).

The augers used for deep holes on ships are, oddly enough, called ship augers.
Usually use a gi-gundous drill motor on them, but they still have no solid
center:

https://www.toolnut.com/milwa
ukee-48-13-3000-3pc-18-ship-auger-bit-set.html?utm_source=google_shopping&gclid=
CjwKCAiAvf3RBRBBEiwAH5XYqKt4daLCnyWTTVv24-GyVZVyRTIAg4MuyO1aioQql6BHWbhsDE_UzRoC
za8QAvD_BwE <https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-7-8-in-Ship-Auger-Bit-53439/100662405?c
m_mmc=Shopping|THD|google|&mid=sUh3yTzF9|dc_mtid_89037lm25188_pcrid_118170493868
_pkw__pmt__product_100662405_slid_&gclid=CjwKCAiAvf3RBRBBEiwAH5XYqNhwFOFiBtmeIkN
zmoPu99DB1aZ1tdZnZu437HNVY0e_alGVxV8fpRoCHP8QAvD_BwE>

The description says they are rated for use with an impact driver - although
why?  The barefoot bits commonly used on ships are just as long and also have
this same single twist configuration.

Ed Minch
264414 gary may 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Hi John--
  I bought one of those Clico spoons for a song at a garage sale just before I
moved to Olympia, about three years ago.  I expect it'll be turning up soon.  :)
I think you guys who say "stronger" on the solid center augers are probably
right.  I have never twisted an auger to the point of damage, as well as I can
recall, but I can see it happening in the telephone pole boring trade, or in
railroad and shipbuilding, to be sure. So how are they made?  Turned out of
solid stock on a lathe?  Seems wasteful. And impossible, but machining throws on
a crankshaft seems impossible too.                hnyggs---gam
 

How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen

      From: John Leyden 
 To: OldTools List  
 Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 12:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] auger forging
   
Gary inquires about the rationale for solid center augers.

My (possibly incorrect/incomplete) understanding is that solid center augers are
supposed to be less likely to flex when drilling very long/deep holes.
Therefore, I infer that they may also be able to handle more torque than a twist
auger bit might (as when driven by a power drill). As far as how they are made I
have no knowledge, but they look like they could be either milled from solid bar
or forged/swaged.

On a related note, another galoot asked me off-list whether the company that had
the auger factory in the video I mentioned the other day was still in business.
Apparently it is not. The company was Clico, of Sheffield, and it looks like it
went out of business almost exactly three years ago.  :-(

John
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
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OldTools@s...
264415 "bilcol" <bilcol@b...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Here is at least one way of making solid center augers (machining).  You
tube is amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=oknH3a74ueo

Bill
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of John
Leyden
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:27 PM
To: OldTools List 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] auger forging

Gary inquires about the rationale for solid center augers.

My (possibly incorrect/incomplete) understanding is that solid center augers
are supposed to be less likely to flex when drilling very long/deep holes.
Therefore, I infer that they may also be able to handle more torque than a
twist auger bit might (as when driven by a power drill). As far as how they
are made I have no knowledge, but they look like they could be either milled
from solid bar or forged/swaged.

On a related note, another galoot asked me off-list whether the company that
had the auger factory in the video I mentioned the other day was still in
business. Apparently it is not. The company was Clico, of Sheffield, and it
looks like it went out of business almost exactly three years ago.   :-(

John
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
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OldTools@s...
264416 John Leyden <leydenjl@g...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
The bits we used at Ma Bell looked quite similar to your ship auger and came in
long lengths for drilling through the floors and walls of homes to run wires.
The single twist would carry a wire through the bored hole too, which was nice.
They could flex quite a lot and we often used that to our advantage in crawl
spaces and attics. I suppose you have even less room to move about aboard ship!
I recall seeing some broken single twist bits but I presume they can only have
failed after a period of severe abuse bordering on attempted suicide. I can’t
imagine needing an impact driver for one, either.

John
264417 John Leyden <leydenjl@g...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
Cool!

Reminds me of the multimillion dollar CNC machines they use nowadays for making
baseball bats.

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=ov3awRWfVJc <htt
ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov3awRWfVJc>

Not sure I’d care to stand too close to either machine given the speed with
which the shavings fly off them.

John

Merry Christmas, all.
264418 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
While it's sad that Clico went out of business, I think I can understand why.
The video illustrates lots of labor intensive hand work the make one unit.
Having spent lots of time watching How It's Made, I feel confident that there
are automated computer controlled machines that can do this same work more
quickly and with greater precision. Perhaps retooling and retraining were too
expensive.

Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year to you all!

John

“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

On Dec 24, 2017, at 3:27 PM, John Leyden mailto:leydenjl@g...>> wrote:

On a related note, another galoot asked me off-list whether the company that had
the auger factory in the video I mentioned the other day was still in business.
Apparently it is not. The company was Clico, of Sheffield, and it looks like it
went out of business almost exactly three years ago.   :-(
264419 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: auger forging
My guess is this is why Clico went out of business

John

“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

On Dec 24, 2017, at 4:21 PM, bilcol ma
ilto:bilcol@b...>> wrote:

Here is at least one way of making solid center augers (machining).  You
tube is amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=oknH3a74ueo

Bill
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to all

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of John
Leyden
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:27 PM
To: OldTools List mailto:oldtools@
s...>>
Subject: Re: [OldTools] auger forging

Gary inquires about the rationale for solid center augers.

My (possibly incorrect/incomplete) understanding is that solid center augers
are supposed to be less likely to flex when drilling very long/deep holes.
Therefore, I infer that they may also be able to handle more torque than a
twist auger bit might (as when driven by a power drill). As far as how they
are made I have no knowledge, but they look like they could be either milled
from solid bar or forged/swaged.

On a related note, another galoot asked me off-list whether the company that
had the auger factory in the video I mentioned the other day was still in
business. Apparently it is not. The company was Clico, of Sheffield, and it
looks like it went out of business almost exactly three years ago.   :-(

John
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

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ot/

OldTools@s...


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OldTools@s...
264421 Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: Clico Tools - was auger forging
On 25/12/2017 7:27 AM, John Leyden wrote in part:

> On a related note, another galoot asked me off-list whether the company that
had the auger factory in the video I mentioned the other day was still in
business. Apparently it is not. The company was Clico, of Sheffield, and it
looks like it went out of business almost exactly three years ago.   :-(
>
> John

Probably 25 so years ago, back in the days of airmailed letters rather 
than today's corporate websites and email I had reason to contact Clico 
(Sheffield) Tooling Ltd, chasing a heavy  replacement iron for a Preston 
bench plane. They were helpful and prompt, supplying the blade I was 
looking for with a catalogue of the company's products - mostly machine 
tools, and pleasant letter and invoice showing me what the price of the 
iron was and asking me to pay within 30 days!  Nice folk.  Along with 
the Sterling bank draft (remember those) I sent off a thank you letter 
containing a few questions, since the line of Clifton bench and rebate 
planes seemed rather removed from their main game which was the 
manufacture of precision rotary tools for the aerospace industry.  The 
response was that Clico was a family firm and one of the Directors was a 
passionate wood-worker, and had convinced the other directors that a 
line of premium quality tools would be saleable and profitable. Seeing 
the prices for the planes even then, I suspected that "marginally 
profitable at best" would have been  a more accurate summation of the 
prospects.

Clico (Sheffield) Tooling Limited was established as a private limited 
company with share capital on 1 June 1983, for the purpose of 
"Manufacture Of Tools"  with its registered office in Sheffield. The 
company  had one director at the time it was dissolved on 11 August 
2017, did not have any subsidiaries and had ceased to trade well before 
that date.  August 2017 was just the formal burying of the last 
vestiges. The Company's accounts were described as "Total Exemption 
Small", whatever that means, but the description doesn't make the 
company sound either large or prosperous.

The fate of Clico is a sad one, being broken up and sold to 2 other 
Sheffield companies: Lidster Paragon Tool Co. Ltd  and Thomas Flynn and Co.

 From the web at: http://lidsters.com/
about/clico

'In 2014 Lidsters purchased the aerospace and double glazing division of 
Clico. All the staff and manufacturing equipment were transferred to the 
Lidsters site in Killamarsh, Sheffield.'

'Clico can trace its origins back to the 19th Century as part of William 
Ridgway, a supplier of woodworking tools to furniture and cabinet 
makers. As the early aircraft were also made of wood its involvement in 
aircraft manufacture was a natural progression. It soon became a name on 
its own as the machine tool division of William Ridgeway in the 1950s. 
In 1983 there was a management buyout of the company when it became 
Clico (Sheffield) Tooling Ltd.  The Clico brand had 3 main product 
groups, of which it was particularly well known and trusted throughout 
the aerospace and double glazing industries. It was for this part of the 
business that Lidsters have taken on Clico.'

"Lidsters vision is to dominate the UK Aerospace industry, becoming the 
specialist drill manufacturer offering exceptional technical support and 
service.'

Lidster's core business is the manufacture of HSS, HSCO and Carbide 
round cutting tools such as drills and reamers, so not much future for a 
line of archaic hand tools with that firm.

Fortunately the Clifton plane and shave line was bought up by Thomas 
Flynn and Co, another Sheffield family firm.  I recall Richard Wilson 
pointing us in their direction not long ago.  This firm's history is at:

http://www.f
linn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/History.html

and their Clifton planes, shaves and spare irons are at:

https://www
.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/CLIFTON.html

This is a great site to rummage through, as the firm makes or factors a 
wonderful range of unusual  and hard to find tools including turning 
saws and blades, pad saw handles and spare blades, musical saws, 
stone-cutting saws and saw screws and caps.

No connection with either Clico or Thos. Flinn and Co. other than as a 
long past very satisfied customer of both.

For what its worth the UK firm "Woodsmith' of 7-9 Claremont Road, 
Whitley Bay, Tyne and Wear, NE26 3TN 
http://woodsmith
experience.co.uk/shop/category/clico/ still offers Clico 
brand barrel eyed augers, solid centre augers and Jennings pattern 
augers along with chairmakers parallel spoon bits (though spoon bits are 
listed as out of stock, so no need to rush.).

Compliments of the Season to you all,

Tony B
Hobart, Tasmania
264422 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑12‑24 Re: It's finally finally Christmas Eve day
On 2017-12-24 3:44 PM, curt seeliger wrote:
> the fourth file with a tight, ~15 degree
> angle -- a feather file? I've only seen one of these before, and it's well
> used, but for what I do not know. How are these intended to be used, and
> what other uses have folks found for these?

For sharpening the wickedly shaped teeth of Japanes saws. Also useful, I 
understand, for adjusting the screw points of augers. Maybe best done 
after making one side safe.

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264423 "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> 2017‑12‑25 Re: Clico Tools - was auger forging
> along with chairmakers parallel spoon bits (though spoon bits are listed as
out of stock, so no need to rush.).

While Clico is indeed no more, it should be noted that Lee Valley now supplies
spoon bits.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p
=57713&cat=1,180,42240,45534,42240,45531,42240,45534,42240,45534,42240,45533,422
40,45534,42240,45531,42240,45534,42240,45534,42240,53317&ap=1

I have no experience with them as I own the forementioned Clico bits, but LV
certainly has a fine reputation.

Merry Christmas to one and all! 

Dennis Heyza - peeking out from under the porch after long silence
264425 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2017‑12‑25 Re: [SPAM?] Re: Clico Tools - was auger forging
Tony has beaten me to a reply about Clico, so I’ll just add a couple of bits of
trivia.

Recently I was needing a turning saw, and blinked at the prices, so I pursued a
blade only, which led me to the Thomas Flynn site.  As Tony says, fascinating to
look around it, and if I get to Sheffield with spare time I’ll definitely look
in there.  Seems to bea pleasantly old fashioned company, with personal
responses from the boss lady.
The blade arrived, and it’s in the spares drawer, awaiting a frame.  I found
another way around my problem cut.  At least I know where to go get some saw
files in future.

Clico took over the tooling - some of it, that has history going back to
Preston.  They reproduced the shoulder planes, and some of the bench planes.  I
purchased a Clifton blade for a 042 shoulder plane (medium width shoulder plane,
Jeff)  and was disappointed  by the finish, which seemed to have come freehand
from a linisher.  Thicker than a Record blade though, so probably excellent in
service.. Trouble was that I intended it to go in a Record, and the adjuster
slot didn’t work.  I could have modified it, and when the 042 wears out I may
spend the time. (had it maybe 20 years, so maybe another 50 to go) Clico

I also have a ‘stay-set’ cap iron.  Now I like the stay set design.  It does
what it says, it makes a quick swipe over an oilstone easy and efficient, and
keeps you in the business of planing longer between sharpening interruptions.
Their cap iron is precisely machined, but again, I felt the linishing let it
down.  Also, it is thicker than the originals, so a new screw is needed, and it
isn’t a drop in replacement.  Not an issue if you buy one of their planes I’m
sure, but we are all so accustomed to being able to swap a blade in and out
without a blink that it’s an unwanted irritation.
and of course, like the ‘new’ planes of today, they were priced so far above the
run of either old tools, or cheap imports, that their market was going to be
limited.  I’m fascinated at how some of the ‘new’ manufacturers can keep going,
and how they have the new makers thinking that you have to buy one, when fleabay
and car boot sales are awash with good quality old bench tools.

I’ll recommend that Flynn-Garlick site for its info on saw variations and so on
- read it whilst it exists.  I hope they go on existing.  - No affiliation -
just a happy customer, blah blah.

Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot, wishing good shavings to all of galootdom, 
and in Northumbria, happy now the year’s turned and we are enjoying the Mithras
season.
264429 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑12‑25 Re: [SPAM?] Re: Clico Tools - was auger forging
> On Dec 25, 2017, at 3:55 AM, yorkshireman@y... wrote:
> 
> Clico took over the tooling - some of it, that has history going back to
Preston.


I saw the Clifton 311 shoulder plane on their site.  It is exactly like mu user
Record 311, which is a later version of the Preston 311.   Mine has no finish of
any kind on it - I take that back.  It is stamped “WAR FINISH”, so no finish is
apparently a finish,

And remember that Mythbusters proved you could polish a turd.

Ed Minch
264676 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑01‑08 Re: Finished something
On 2018-01-08 9:32 AM, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) wrote:
> Galoots assembled,
>
> I finished this jewelry cabinet just before Christmas as a gift for my wife.
Descriptions may be found with each photo.
>
> http://galootcentral.com/component/option,com_coppe
rminevis/Itemid,2/place,thumbnails/album,787/
>
> or
>
> https://tinyurl.com/y9kxj3h3


Lovely, but isn't there a rule discouraging the completion of projects?

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264680 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2018‑01‑08 Re: Finished something
Don,
The extreme need for a completed Christmas gift trumped that rule!!

“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.


Lovely, but isn't there a rule discouraging the completion of projects?
264698 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑01‑10 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
On 2018-01-10 3:23 PM, Mick Dowling wrote:
> Or, you could simply get some blue masking tape and write 'wrong' on the
> un-square ones.

I have actually done something like that, on a 4-shield fixed bevel I 
bought years ago - and with blue masking tape! I think about trying to 
adjust it from time to time, but instead just put some tape on one side 
and hung it on a board where it looks shiny and cool.

Don, in -22C Calgary ( -7 for the unconverted )

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264706 Thomas Conroy 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Micah Salb wrote:
"I am tired of squares that aren?t square.  I don?t understand how craftsmen of
yonder days did good work with squares that weren?t square!
"Are there reliable ways of squaring a square?"

You are probably demanding too much precision in your work. Thirty-five years
ago my binding teacher told me "The human eye is designed to forgive a great
deal around the general theme of squareness." If you look at 18th century books
the covers look just fine, but if you slap a protractor on them you will find
that plenty of those covers have corners that are five or ten degrees off.
Sometimes they are twenty degrees off, and you still don't notice it unless you
are looking for it. So chill out a bit. Take a stiff dose of whatever intoxicant
is still legal and suits your taste (My Great-Uncle Charley was a roofer. He
told me once that to do the work, you had to be drunk enough that the roof
looked flat to you; otherwise it wasn't safe. Fact.) If you can't see the
problem without precision measuring tools, then it doesn't matter.
Fit pieces to each other, not to a separate standard. Yeah, that was Maudsley's
great advance, the standard plane surface and so on. Fine, indeed necessary, for
machining metal. Not needed for wood, which is not a precision material. Get a
piece of wood planed to a crossection true to a hundredth of a degree and what
do you have? A piece of wood that is two degrees off after the next big
rainstorm.

Precision is nice, I suppose, but too much precision is a killer. Years ago I
saw a TV show where they were interviewing one of the ex-Nazi scientists who
ended up in Russia. A commissar came up to him at a reception and held up a
little vial. "Look at our Soviet plutonium," he said, "it is 99.9 per cent pure;
so you can see how much better it is than American plutonium. They can only make
90% pure." The ex-Nazi told the commissar----well, he said he told the
commissar, and I'm sure he wanted to: "The American plutonium is better. It
costs a tenth as much, and it blows up just as well." You're not a machinist,
are you? Why would you need a run-out of under .0002 inches in 6 inches?

Its a disease that attacks some people. Karl Holtey made beautiful infill planes
for a long time. I've seen one, handled it even if I remember correctly, didn't
have the chutzpah to ask its owner if I could try it. But Holtey wanted more and
more and more precision, and couldn't get it with the infill shimmying around
all over the place, so he got rid of the wood for his most mature designs. Ended
up with planes a lot uglier than the infills, and no better for working wood. I
like shimmying; I wouldn't want a Holtey-designed exotic dancer.

Back in the '80s someone wrote in a letter to Fine Woodworking: " 'Pretty close'
is not good enough for machines because they don't know how to be anything but
exact. With 'pretty close' machines become confused and their bearings heat up.
But man has always known what to do with 'pretty close.' He hits it with a
hammer, or puts in some shims, or changes the design, or adds some molding.
Man's ability to respond to 'pretty close' is precisely what makes him human and
vastly superior to machines. The ability to adapt to 'pretty close' makes human
work so much more pleasing and sought after than that of the machine...After
all, if God had wanted man to be perfect, he would not have invented wood
filler." [Thomas P. Sullivan to FWW #26, Jan/Feb. 1981, p. 4.]
Oh, you wanted practical advice? With a 10X magnifier and a hard, sharp pencil
the line-and-flip test will show you if a square is precise to .0008 over six
inches, and maybe .0004.----about half of Starrett's guarantee on their working
squares.  If a square won't pass this, get rid of it. Never buy a used square to
use it (c*ll*ct*ng them is another matter). Buy new, with a guarantee of
precision (BSC guaranteed machinists' squares are common and inexpensive) and
test a new square when you get it---send it back if it doesn't pass. Trying to
true up a used square is an extreme sport in itself. I've done it (once) and I
might do it again some day, just for the challenge, but if you want a square to
use, buy a new accurate one.

Or make your own of wood. It is actually surprisingly easy to make one, and easy
to true it before it is assembled, if you follow Chris Schwarz's method as shown
to St. Roy:
http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-try-square-christopher-schwarz/

I have two or three I made from rosewood offcuts, and I use them all the time,
for, of course, checking or for marking with a pencil. I keep steel squares for
use with a marking knife.
If precision really matters to you get a new Starrett or equivalent (the Swiss
company that bought Brown and Sharpe, or the Japanese one, or there is probably
someone in Germany) and keep it in a fitted case to check your working squares.
I believe the high-end firms will true a square that is out. Expensive,
probably, but if precision really matters to you....

I say I trued a steel square, by the way; well, this is maybe not quite right. I
worked away at one for six or eight years, getting it as good as I could and
having new problems crop up every time I corrected an old one. Finally I got fed
up and buried it in a drawer, still not satisfied with it. Five years later I
took it out to have another go, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with
it. Kept trying to figure out the last problem for a while, but finally I gave
in and started to use it. So that's my last bit of advice to you: put an
inaccurate square away in a drawer for a few years. Maybe it will correct
itself.
Tom Conroy
264714 Micah Salb <msalb@l...> 2018‑01‑11 Re: When Good Squares Go Bad
Dear Tom:

There is wisdom in your words.  While I’m not sure that I will accept your
Great-Uncle Charley’s advice, some of the rest of what you wrote seems worth
taking in.  In fairness, though, it is not particularly advice that I need.  I
am not as persnickety in my work as perhaps I should be (depending on whom you
ask).  But when making a bookcase, for example, and a shelf is at 89 degrees
where it tenons into one side but 91 degrees where it tenons into the other
side, you’re going to have some problems that will not be easily fixed.

What I’ve been doing with my not-square squares is drawing a line once, flipping
the square, drawing another line, and splitting the difference.  It’s a pain.
And enough difference that not doing it would surely make a difference.

Micah


From: Thomas Conroy [mailto:booktoolcutter
@y...]
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 8:38 AM
To: Micah Salb ; oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: When Good Squares Go Bad

Micah Salb wrote:
"I am tired of squares that aren?t square.  I don?t understand how craftsmen of
yonder days did good work with squares that weren?t square!
"Are there reliable ways of squaring a square?"

You are probably demanding too much precision in your work. Thirty-five years
ago my binding teacher told me "The human eye is designed to forgive a great
deal around the general theme of squareness." If you look at 18th century books
the covers look just fine, but if you slap a protractor on them you will find
that plenty of those covers have corners that are five or ten degrees off.
Sometimes they are twenty degrees off, and you still don't notice it unless you
are looking for it. So chill out a bit. Take a stiff dose of whatever intoxicant
is still legal and suits your taste (My Great-Uncle Charley was a roofer. He
told me once that to do the work, you had to be drunk enough that the roof
looked flat to you; otherwise it wasn't safe. Fact.) If you can't see the
problem without precision measuring tools, then it doesn't matter.

Fit pieces to each other, not to a separate standard. Yeah, that was Maudsley's
great advance, the standard plane surface and so on. Fine, indeed necessary, for
machining metal. Not needed for wood, which is not a precision material. Get a
piece of wood planed to a crossection true to a hundredth of a degree and what
do you have? A piece of wood that is two degrees off after the next big
rainstorm.

Precision is nice, I suppose, but too much precision is a killer. Years ago I
saw a TV show where they were interviewing one of the ex-Nazi scientists who
ended up in Russia. A commissar came up to him at a reception and held up a
little vial. "Look at our Soviet plutonium," he said, "it is 99.9 per cent pure;
so you can see how much better it is than American plutonium. They can only make
90% pure." The ex-Nazi told the commissar----well, he said he told the
commissar, and I'm sure he wanted to: "The American plutonium is better. It
costs a tenth as much, and it blows up just as well." You're not a machinist,
are you? Why would you need a run-out of under .0002 inches in 6 inches?

Its a disease that attacks some people. Karl Holtey made beautiful infill planes
for a long time. I've seen one, handled it even if I remember correctly, didn't
have the chutzpah to ask its owner if I could try it. But Holtey wanted more and
more and more precision, and couldn't get it with the infill shimmying around
all over the place, so he got rid of the wood for his most mature designs. Ended
up with planes a lot uglier than the infills, and no better for working wood. I
like shimmying; I wouldn't want a Holtey-designed exotic dancer.

Back in the '80s someone wrote in a letter to Fine Woodworking: " 'Pretty close'
is not good enough for machines because they don't know how to be anything but
exact. With 'pretty close' machines become confused and their bearings heat up.
But man has always known what to do with 'pretty close.' He hits it with a
hammer, or puts in some shims, or changes the design, or adds some molding.
Man's ability to respond to 'pretty close' is precisely what makes him human and
vastly superior to machines. The ability to adapt to 'pretty close' makes human
work so much more pleasing and sought after than that of the machine...After
all, if God had wanted man to be perfect, he would not have invented wood
filler." [Thomas P. Sullivan to FWW #26, Jan/Feb. 1981, p. 4.]

Oh, you wanted practical advice? With a 10X magnifier and a hard, sharp pencil
the line-and-flip test will show you if a square is precise to .0008 over six
inches, and maybe .0004.----about half of Starrett's guarantee on their working
squares.  If a square won't pass this, get rid of it. Never buy a used square to
use it (c*ll*ct*ng them is another matter). Buy new, with a guarantee of
precision (BSC guaranteed machinists' squares are common and inexpensive) and
test a new square when you get it---send it back if it doesn't pass. Trying to
true up a used square is an extreme sport in itself. I've done it (once) and I
might do it again some day, just for the challenge, but if you want a square to
use, buy a new accurate one.

Or make your own of wood. It is actually surprisingly easy to make one, and easy
to true it before it is assembled, if you follow Chris Schwarz's method as shown
to St. Roy:

http://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-try-square-christopher-schwarz/

I have two or three I made from rosewood offcuts, and I use them all the time,
for, of course, checking or for marking with a pencil. I keep steel squares for
use with a marking knife.

If precision really matters to you get a new Starrett or equivalent (the Swiss
company that bought Brown and Sharpe, or the Japanese one, or there is probably
someone in Germany) and keep it in a fitted case to check your working squares.
I believe the high-end firms will true a square that is out. Expensive,
probably, but if precision really matters to you....

I say I trued a steel square, by the way; well, this is maybe not quite right. I
worked away at one for six or eight years, getting it as good as I could and
having new problems crop up every time I corrected an old one. Finally I got fed
up and buried it in a drawer, still not satisfied with it. Five years later I
took it out to have another go, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with
it. Kept trying to figure out the last problem for a while, but finally I gave
in and started to use it. So that's my last bit of advice to you: put an
inaccurate square away in a drawer for a few years. Maybe it will correct
itself.

Tom Conroy
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264749 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑01‑18 Re: dog holes
On 2018-01-17 8:38 PM, Derek Cohen wrote:
> The dog holes do have different tasks. The rectangular (square) dog holes only
run along the front edge of the bench. They align with the tail rise, and are
used for holding work along the edge, such as when planing faces of narrow
boards (sucg as drawer sides), or ploughing grooves. The round dog holes are for
hold downs. They are positioned in stops where time has shown me they are
needed.
>
> I am struggling to find a photo of the dog holes on my bench - the pics I have
tend to have a lot of clutter instead. Strange that!:)
>
> Here is one using the tail vise to hold a wide-ish drawer bottom (while a
curved front rebate is planed). There is a Veritas hold down at the end of the
board …
>
> > https:
//s19.postimg.org/byu4wwxib/Tailvisea_zpsvnal6yby.jpg
>
> Again using the front square dogs to hold a long board and plough grooves for
drawer slips …
>
> > https://s19.postimg.org/5pqxi5f4j/Sofa_Table_Secret_Drawer_html_m40f
1f6f7.jpg
>
> Moxon dovetail vise held by hold downs in round dogs.
>
> > https://s19.postimg.
org/6pboiyf8j/moxon13.jpg
>
> At the rear can be seen round dog holes, which are used when planing across
the bench (usually when traversing, but here smoothing) …
>
> https://s19.postimg.org/yg89w5roz/IDeclare_This_Bench_Finished_htm
l_m64ad6e87.jpg
>
> Hope this helps.


Derek

Hi & Thanks.

I am inferring from this that neither is inherently better for any task 
or position, but rather that perhaps you started out with the square 
holes, then added the round ones as needs arose.

I am in a different position. I've purchased the Veritas deluxe benchtop 
kit ( two 10-3/4in predrilled slabs plus hardware, and am trying to 
decide what to do with it. I don't want the well that Veritas has in 
their plans, and am considering alternatives for widening the top to 
about 26 or 28in. I'm leaning to a narrow gap a la Mike Siemsen that 
would accommodate planing stops, bench hooks and possibly clamps, but 
will want to add some material either at the gap or on the front and/or 
back. I could conceivably add a row of square holes along one or both 
long edges. My vises are a Record quick-action & the Veritas twin-screw, 
which will very likely go on the end. I am open to all ideas except for 
returning the slabs and building my own top. ;-)

I'm also interested in seeing or hearing about any experiences with the 
Veritas benchtop. My observations so far are that it is more heavily 
finished than I want, one slab is slightly thicker ( about 1/64" ) than 
spec, and they will want a bit of flattening. I may go over both sides 
with a toothing plane, and then joint them once the top is assembled, 
putting the thinner slab at the back ( shimmed with veneer).

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264750 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑01‑18 Re: Logs
On 2018-01-17 4:59 PM, Ed Minch wrote:
> http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/canadian-
man-builds-impressive-log-cabin-time-lapse/story?id=52342918
>
> Are these logs prepared to be round like that?

I guess you'd have to ask them!

Don, bobbing and weaving

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264751 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2018‑01‑18 Re: dog holes
Don wrote: 


            
264758 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2018‑01‑18 Re: Holdfast holes
On 2018-01-18 5:05 AM, Thomas Johnson wrote:
> Greetings one and all -
> I have a pair of 5/8" diameter holdfasts that I am wanting to put to work.
> I drilled a 5/8" diameter hold and tried to ream it out a bit with the 5/8"
> bit but the bench is 4" thick at that point (hard maple) and I clearly am
> going to have to open up the holes a bit.  So here's my question - what
> size hole is recommended?  I'm clearly going to have to go on-line and buy
> a 21/32 bit ... or 11/16"?  I'm cheap.  I don't want to but a 21/32 and
> find out it's too small - or a 11/16 and find out it's too big.

Suggest you try counterboring one hole from below with a 3/4 or 7/8" bit 
to see if that creates enough wiggle room. Try 1/2" or so at a time 
until you find the sweet spot.

FWIW

Don

-- 
"You can tell a man that boozes by the company he chooses"
The Famous Pig Song, Clarke Van Ness

The harder they come, the bigger they fall." Ry Cooder
264760 Phil Koontz <phil.koontz@g...> 2018‑01‑18 Re: Holdfast holes
HI guys--

In my experience, the exact size of the hole is not an issue.  I have used
holdfasts in holes that were too tight the first time I pounded them
through the bench, and at the other extreme, holes that were wallowed out
to 1" or more and even burned from using them to test holdfasts that were
still hot from the forge.  My thought here is to just get the HF installed
the first time, using a rasp or sandpaper on a stick.  After that it should
be fine.  FWIW, square holes work, but get some cosmetic damage from round
holdfasts.

A slight disclaimer.  My bench, and especially my holdfast testing bench,
has always been softwood, so I don't have any delicacy about appearance.
Thicker is better.  Hardwood lasts better but tends to be slippery.

Your mileage may vary.

PK
Kinda missing our usual winter weather in rural Alaska--

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