OldTools Archive

Recent Search Bios FAQ

262378 Christopher Dunn <christopherdunn123@g...> 2017‑06‑01 Am I on the road to stupidville?
Galoots

I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered
iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond
stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat
(the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade
before, but there's got to a better way.

So what's the better way?

The smart thing to do is to put a back bevel on the iron and call it a
day (like the last guy who owned the plane), but I now consider this a
challenge and want it the back flat.

Would a belt sander work? Or would it round over the back of the iron?
Or would it destroy the temper of my iron in 4.7 nano-seconds? I'll
keep dipping it in water.

Thank you for your responses in advance,
Chris
262380 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2017‑06‑01 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Christopher Dunn wrote:
> Galoots
>
> I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered
> iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond
> stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat
> (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade
> before, but there's got to a better way.

Given that the progress pattern when flattening is one
of slowing down (the small high spots are dealt with quite quickly),
you're not even close to halfway through.

You need faster, coarser abrasive; I suggest cloth backed ALZI
at around 40-60 grit, backed by something flattish and stiff.
Use moderate pressure to avoid stripping the grains
from the backing.

With such a wide blade, you also have an issue with
potential convexity introduced by the flattening process,
so watch out for that.

    BugBear
262382 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑06‑01 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christopher Dunn <
christopherdunn123@g...> wrote:

> I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered
> iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond
> stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat
> (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade
> before, but there's got to a better way.
>
> So what's the better way?
>

I am with Bugbear on this one, AlZi paper is a wonderful thing.  I bought a
50' remnant once, and have it glued down to my Scary Sharp setup for really
gross things.  It works better than my power sharpener with 100 grit, as
that wears too quickly.  I have 18+ inches glued down, and go sideways with
the usable part of the blade.  (It should be closer to the edge of the
glass for better performance.)  Super magnets on a stick work great for
holding the blade flat without sanding your fingers when its away from the
edge like this.

https://k
irkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop-Stuff/i-JHGpCkk

I am doing a ~2" spokeshave blade right now that had the reverse of yours,
low in the center.  By taking an angle, I minimized the blade material
loss.  Unfortunately, someone I am pushing down the slope is using my SS
system, so the power grinder is taking a beating.

Left most Spokeshave here
ht
tps://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-drD5KTp


-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA
262384 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
I wonder when the thing about flattening the backs of plane blades and 
chisels arose?  Is it really necessary? does it make a bog difference? 
I've never flattened mine.  I'm pretty sure the old masters didn't do 
it, but I've never met one so I wouldn't have been able to  ask.  Thing 
is if they did it, then it'd already have been done.

Belt sanders can't produce a very flat surface.

I gotta say,  pushing  4.25" of steel  plane blade across anything  
sounds like  work.
262386 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
On 2017-06-01 6:31 PM, Cliff wrote:
>
> I gotta say,  pushing  4.25" of steel  plane blade across anything  
> sounds like  work. 
Too much work. Been there etc.

With chisels, it makes sense to get a flat back because the back of the 
chisel helps guide the edge. it's the only help you get with a chisel, 
unless you use a jig of some sort. Think workmanship of risk. But with a 
plane blade, the edge is guided by the bottom of the plane; it just 
needs to be sharp and stay that way. The back bevel is your friend here, 
because it saves you work AND steel, and the blade stays sharp longer, 
so you get more done between sharpening sessions. As well, every micron 
you take off the back reduces the mass of the blade, reduces its 
stiffness, and thins the precious steel: that can't be good.

FWIW
Don

-- 
The harder they come, the bigger they fall - Ry Cooder
262387 bridger <bridger@b...> 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
With chipbreakers, it matters. Single irons, not so much.

-------- Original message --------
From: Cliff
Date:06/01/2017 5:31 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Am I on the road to stupidville?
I wonder when the thing about flattening the backs of plane blades and chisels arose? Is it really necessary? does it make a bog difference? I've never flattened mine. I'm pretty sure the old masters didn't do it, but I've never met one so I wouldn't have been able to ask. Thing is if they did it, then it'd already have been done. Belt sanders can't produce a very flat surface. I gotta say, pushing 4.25" of steel plane blade across anything sounds like work. On 5/31/2017 10:31 PM, Christopher Dunn wrote: > Galoots > > I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered > iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond > stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat > (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade > before, but there's got to a better way. > > So what's the better way? > > The smart thing to do is to put a back bevel on the iron and call it a > day (like the last guy who owned the plane), but I now consider this a > challenge and want it the back flat. > > Would a belt sander work? Or would it round over the back of the iron? > Or would it destroy the temper of my iron in 4.7 nano-seconds? I'll > keep dipping it in water. > > Thank you for your responses in advance, > Chris > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > > https:/ /oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > > https://swingleydev.com/a rchive/faq.html > > > OldTools archive: https://swingleydev. com/ot/ > > OldTools@s... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. To change your subscription options: https://old tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools To read the FAQ: https://swingleydev.com/archi ve/faq.html OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ ot/ OldTools@s...
262388 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively
giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse.

On May 31, 2017 7:33 PM, "Christopher Dunn" 
wrote:



The smart thing to do is to put a back bevel on the iron and call it a
day (like the last guy who owned the plane), but I now consider this a
challenge and want it the back flat.

-
262389 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Kirk Eppler wrote:
> BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively
> giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse.

While we're on:

I understand that a back bevel, either large, "ruler tricked"
or even smaller can avoid the need to flatten ALONG the whole length
of a plane blade.

But how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a
freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS
the blade?

   BugBear
262390 bridger <bridger@b...> 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
A slightly *convex* stone

-------- Original message --------
From: paul womack
Date:06/02/2017 9:09 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: Kirk Eppler ,Christopher Dunn
Cc: Tools Old
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Am I on the road to stupidville?
Kirk Eppler wrote: > BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively > giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse. While we're on: I understand that a back bevel, either large, "ruler tricked" or even smaller can avoid the need to flatten ALONG the whole length of a plane blade. But how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS the blade? BugBear ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. To change your subscription options: https://old tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools To read the FAQ: https://swingleydev.com/archi ve/faq.html OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ ot/ OldTools@s...
262391 yorkshireman@y... 2017‑06‑02 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Chris is worrying about being stupid… 

stupid would be not asking the question though. 


Some interesting answers
However, my first thought was ‘why would I do that?  a four inch blade would be
amazingly hard to use.  It’s a panel raiser - so the idea is to leave a
‘perfect’ finish on the panel - evidently for the highest class of work.  So,
like our highly tuned final smoothers (we all Do have a 4 or 4 1/2 or YBI tuned
to a half a gnats a*ss don’t we?) it would only have to make a couple of passes
to follow the smoothers.  Maybe that wide blade is usable after all.
Back to the question then.  
We’ve modified is slightly, in that we now want it to take a full width,
gossamer shaving.  The requirement for this is that the edge is a straight line,
no camber, and the the two edges are polished, to make the meeting edge as fine
as a molecule (ha!)  Having a flat back isn’t so much a need as having a
polished back.  If we were to polish the back, in order to get that sharp edge
to maybe a single atom, whilst it isn’t perfectly flat, we can still achieve the
miracle edge of gnatarsness.
You undoubtedly need a jig, and scary sharp is probably the best bet, because
you can easily change grit, and continue down to, say, 2500 before moving on to
a lapping plate and sub micron diamond dust.

For myself, I’ve already declared myself in the ‘sharp as needed’ corner, so I’d
just just run over the scary sharp or equivalent regime, and give the back a
good rub down on something each time I resharpened.  You get there in the end.

Alternatively of course, a jig and a surface grinder, maybe even just the side
of a wheel, taken carefully, if it really matters.
Or, of course, follow the regime of the previous owner, and add in a bit of back
flattening each time you sharpen.  It’s really all down to your personal
preference.


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot, in a fine sunny northumberland


and for Jeff.
4 - standard size smoother
4 1/2 - a bit wider standard smoother
YBI - Yuppie bastard infill - all manner of ridiculously expensive hand made /
cast / exotic versions of a standard smoother which can produce the same finish
as a well tuned 4
gnats ass - a very very very tiny linear measurement, slightly more than the
thickness of a shaving from a well tuned 4
262392 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2017‑06‑03 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Hi

A small back bevel, all that is needed, of a degree or two makes little 
difference to the cutting geometry.

However, to put a small back bevel on the iron you really need to jig 
the process.

On my sharpening pages I have a section on flattening the back and why 
it is a waste of time.

A couple of notes:

  1 diamond abrasives on steel - iron has an affinity for carbon with 
the result that a chemical reaction (not a physical breaking, a chemical 
removal) dissolves the diamonds. diamonds work well on most everything 
but ferrous metals.

  2 coarse abrasives shatter the crystal structure of the hardened iron 
well below the base of the scratches. using 40 grit on the back will 
mean you have less durable steel on the working edge until you sharpen 
past the flattened section of the blade.

  3 a small microbevel on the back, created with sub 6 micron abrasives 
will not shatter the crystal structure of the steel and will give you a 
durable edge that is flat on both sides.

  4 flattening once does nothing to remove the wear bevel created on the 
back face during use. Lee Valley giving you a very flat back lulls you 
into having half sharp plane irons forever. to have a plane iron with an 
edge that is flat on both faces you have to work both faces every time 
you hone. if done correctly this can add up to 1 minute to honing time

Sharpening well with the best abrasives is faster, lasts longer and 
simplifies tool mastery.

However, you needn't worry. People have been doing good work with 
dullish edges since tools were invented.

On 2017-06-02 08:55, Kirk Eppler wrote:
> BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively
> giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse.
> 
> On May 31, 2017 7:33 PM, "Christopher Dunn" 
> wrote:
> The smart thing to do is to put a back bevel on the iron and call it a
> day (like the last guy who owned the plane), but I now consider this a
> challenge and want it the back flat.

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
262393 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2017‑06‑03 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Hi

On 2017-06-02 09:09, paul womack wrote:
> But how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a
> freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS
> the blade?
Why is there a burr?

I'll answer that.

Because the grinding process with a coarse abrasive has shattered the 
crystal structure of the steel, allowing the burr to form.

Why do you use a coarse abrasive on the edge?

I'll answer that.

Because that is the only way you can grind past the wear bevel on the 
back face if you only work from the front face.

Why don't you hone off the wear bevel on the back face (and the front 
face, for that matter)?

I'll answer that.

Because you won't use a jig, or the jig you use won't let you hone the 
back face.

Why don't you make and use a jig that will let you hone off the front 
and back wear bevels?

I can't answer that.

Brent

My comic relief for those spending too much shop time flattening backs 
and grinding to produce burrs. Please don't be offended.
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
262394 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑06‑03 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
On 6/2/2017 1:14 PM, bridger wrote:
> ut how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a
> freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS
> the blade?
  Leather strop?
262395 bridger <bridger@b...> 2017‑06‑03 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Strop works great for the burr from finer stones. especially if it has a bit of
polishing compound on it. Coarse stone burrs need a fine stone to get them off.
I have a small (~1" x 2" x 1/4") translucent white arkansas stone that would
probably do the job. Sometimes I get a ceramic rod into play on contoured edges
for that sort of thing.

-------- Original message --------
From: Cliff
Date:06/03/2017 6:29 AM (GMT-07:00)
To: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Am I on the road to stupidville?
On 6/2/2017 1:14 PM, bridger wrote: > ut how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a > freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS > the blade? Leather strop? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. To change your subscription options: https://old tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools To read the FAQ: https://swingleydev.com/archi ve/faq.html OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ ot/ OldTools@s...
263282 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2017‑09‑10 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Friends and Galoots:

Following the lead of a few of you from back in June, I have been looking
for AlZi paper for sharpening.  Simply no luck.  Is it sold under a
different name?  How does one find some to buy?

Joe


Joseph Sullivan

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@
s...] On Behalf Of Kirk
Eppler
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 5:15 PM
To: Christopher Dunn 
Cc: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Am I on the road to stupidville?

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christopher Dunn <
christopherdunn123@g...> wrote:

> I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered 
> iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond 
> stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat 
> (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade 
> before, but there's got to a better way.
>
> So what's the better way?
>

I am with Bugbear on this one, AlZi paper is a wonderful thing.  I bought a
50' remnant once, and have it glued down to my Scary Sharp setup for really
gross things.  It works better than my power sharpener with 100 grit, as
that wears too quickly.  I have 18+ inches glued down, and go sideways with
the usable part of the blade.  (It should be closer to the edge of the glass
for better performance.)  Super magnets on a stick work great for holding
the blade flat without sanding your fingers when its away from the edge like
this.

https://k
irkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop-Stuff/i-JHGpCkk

I am doing a ~2" spokeshave blade right now that had the reverse of yours,
low in the center.  By taking an angle, I minimized the blade material loss.
Unfortunately, someone I am pushing down the slope is using my SS system, so
the power grinder is taking a beating.

Left most Spokeshave here
ht
tps://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-drD5KTp


--
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
263287 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑09‑10 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Klingspor ( interalia)
263292 gary may 2017‑09‑11 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
Klingspor is where the hobby hounds shop---
    bottomfeeders see: http://www.supergrit.com/products
/products_rolldrumsleeve-psa   
my 2c---gam in OlyWA

How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen

      From: Cliff 
 To: oldtools@s... 
 Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 10:23 AM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Am I on the road to stupidville?
   
Klingspor ( interalia)



On 9/10/2017 11:05 AM, Joseph Sullivan wrote:
> Friends and Galoots:
>
> Following the lead of a few of you from back in June, I have been looking
> for AlZi paper for sharpening.  Simply no luck.  Is it sold under a
> different name?  How does one find some to buy?
>
> Joe
>
>
> Joseph Sullivan
>
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> > From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-boun
ces@s...] On Behalf Of Kirk
> Eppler
> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 5:15 PM
> To: Christopher Dunn 
> Cc: oldtools@s...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Am I on the road to stupidville?
>
> On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christopher Dunn <
> christopherdunn123@g...> wrote:
>
>> I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered
>> iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond
>> stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat
>> (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade
>> before, but there's got to a better way.
>>
>> So what's the better way?
>>
> I am with Bugbear on this one, AlZi paper is a wonderful thing.  I bought a
> 50' remnant once, and have it glued down to my Scary Sharp setup for really
> gross things.  It works better than my power sharpener with 100 grit, as
> that wears too quickly.  I have 18+ inches glued down, and go sideways with
> the usable part of the blade.  (It should be closer to the edge of the glass
> for better performance.)  Super magnets on a stick work great for holding
> the blade flat without sanding your fingers when its away from the edge like
> this.
>
> > https
://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop-Stuff/i-JHGpCkk
>
> I am doing a ~2" spokeshave blade right now that had the reverse of yours,
> low in the center.  By taking an angle, I minimized the blade material loss.
> Unfortunately, someone I am pushing down the slope is using my SS system, so
> the power grinder is taking a beating.
>
> Left most Spokeshave here
> > https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-drD5KTp
>
>
> --
> Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> > https:/
/oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> > https://swingleydev.com/a
rchive/faq.html
>
> > OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.
com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> > https:/
/oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> > https://swingleydev.com/a
rchive/faq.html
>
> > OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.
com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
263294 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑09‑11 Re: Am I on the road to stupidville?
On 9/10/2017 8:58 PM, gary may wrote:
> How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a 
> blessing one cares for none of them!
> Jane Austen
>

I was thinking of that quote just today.

Recent Search Bios FAQ