OldTools Archive

Recent Search Bios FAQ

262815 Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> 2017‑08‑12 Concern for the list
GG's
An issue that has bothered me for a while is the lack of traffic on
the list.  Is it just me and my service, or is there a lack of posts?
I've been on the list for a number of years and can remember when we
would have 40 or 50 posts a day.  Questions,comments, projects, etc.
Lately, I am only getting a few posts now and then.  So the  question
is, have we lost interest?  Do we not have enough time?  Are we jaded
and don't want to discuss new/old topics.  I honestly miss the banter
between Paddy, Tom Bruce, Ralph,Scott and all the others that used to
post and the stories of Brimfield told by Sandy.  Recognizing, of
course, that we have lost some of the old timers, it just seems there
is less interest.  Do we not need new/old tools? And what happened to
Flea Market Monday when there were several folks that had tools to
sell or needed to buy?

Perhaps we have talked out the issues?  Perhaps we have no new Galoots
that need knowledge?  Perhaps I'm just  reading something in here that
isn't present?

Hope I haven't caused any alarm in the ranks.

Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA
262816 Michael Parrish <michaelparrish@o...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
I am a noob galoot, so feel free to dismiss my opinion.  But I suspect it is
related to the mailing list format.  It is nostalgic, sure - I remember being on
many mailing lists in the late 1990s.  But today, I think the modern discussion
forum is a much better way to carry on these kinds of conversations, to share
photos, as well as to archive everything for later searches.

Garagejournal's forums are a vibrant example.  I honestly wish the Old Tools
list could transition over to garagejournal as a subforum, sometimes.  Maybe
that would kill the charm of the Porch, I dunno.

My 2c.



---
Michael Parrish
michael-parrish.com


-------- Original message --------
From: Bruce Zenge 
Date: 8/12/17 08:59 (GMT-06:00)
To: Galoots 
Subject: [OldTools] Concern for the list

GG's
An issue that has bothered me for a while is the lack of traffic on
the list.  Is it just me and my service, or is there a lack of posts?
I've been on the list for a number of years and can remember when we
would have 40 or 50 posts a day.  Questions,comments, projects, etc.
Lately, I am only getting a few posts now and then.  So the  question
is, have we lost interest?  Do we not have enough time?  Are we jaded
and don't want to discuss new/old topics.  I honestly miss the banter
between Paddy, Tom Bruce, Ralph,Scott and all the others that used to
post and the stories of Brimfield told by Sandy.  Recognizing, of
course, that we have lost some of the old timers, it just seems there
is less interest.  Do we not need new/old tools? And what happened to
Flea Market Monday when there were several folks that had tools to
sell or needed to buy?

Perhaps we have talked out the issues?  Perhaps we have no new Galoots
that need knowledge?  Perhaps I'm just  reading something in here that
isn't present?

Hope I haven't caused any alarm in the ranks.

Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
262817 Bob Page 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
There are so many more venues for discussion and sharing these days than when
the Old Tools list was started. There are the big social media sites like
Facebook and Instagram. Some of the Facebook tool groups have over 30,000
members. It is very easy to post discussion items and photos. There are numerous
other private web sites and forums too.

I first joined the Old Tools list about two years ago because I heard about the
wealth of information freely shared by the members. Let's just say that many of
the folks on Facebook and the like are highly knowledgeable, but the Porch is
the place to go if one really wants to learn something.
Bob PageIn da U.P. of Michigan
On Saturday, August 12, 2017, 10:20:14 AM EDT, Michael Parrish
 wrote:

I am a noob galoot, so feel free to dismiss my opinion.  But I suspect it is
related to the mailing list format.  It is nostalgic, sure - I remember being on
many mailing lists in the late 1990s.  But today, I think the modern discussion
forum is a much better way to carry on these kinds of conversations, to share
photos, as well as to archive everything for later searches.

Garagejournal's forums are a vibrant example.  I honestly wish the Old Tools
list could transition over to garagejournal as a subforum, sometimes.  Maybe
that would kill the charm of the Porch, I dunno.

My 2c.



---
Michael Parrish
michael-parrish.com


-------- Original message --------
From: Bruce Zenge 
Date: 8/12/17 08:59 (GMT-06:00)
To: Galoots 
Subject: [OldTools] Concern for the list

GG's
An issue that has bothered me for a while is the lack of traffic on
the list.  Is it just me and my service, or is there a lack of posts?
I've been on the list for a number of years and can remember when we
would have 40 or 50 posts a day.  Questions,comments, projects, etc.
Lately, I am only getting a few posts now and then.  So the  question
is, have we lost interest?  Do we not have enough time?  Are we jaded
and don't want to discuss new/old topics.  I honestly miss the banter
between Paddy, Tom Bruce, Ralph,Scott and all the others that used to
post and the stories of Brimfield told by Sandy.  Recognizing, of
course, that we have lost some of the old timers, it just seems there
is less interest.  Do we not need new/old tools? And what happened to
Flea Market Monday when there were several folks that had tools to
sell or needed to buy?

Perhaps we have talked out the issues?  Perhaps we have no new Galoots
that need knowledge?  Perhaps I'm just  reading something in here that
isn't present?

Hope I haven't caused any alarm in the ranks.

Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA
262818 Brent Parkin <brent@e...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
GG's,

I have been on the list since the late 90's. Not the part of the first wave of
Galoots, but the second wave I would think.

I too remember when the banter was fast and heavy. I used to get the posts at
work and it kept me sane during the work day. Lol.  But I have noticed now that
sometimes days go by without a post.

But I have noticed many of us also belong to groups like Lumberjocks or Facebook
groups like the Unplugged woodworkers. I think that despite the charm of our old
mailing list format, sometimes the list is just awkward to work with. I know
when I finished my tool chest last year I would have liked to show it off, but
dealing with pictures or videos is annoying at best. The other pseudo porches
make it easy and laziness can get the better of you. So I posted about the chest
and other stuff I have been making on those sights. (Guess I better start
polishing the spittoon).

But even though the times have changed on the WEB, this group is by far the
kindest friendliest group overall (Although Lumberjocks is a nice spot too).
Spots like the FB groups often have arguments and nasty posts popping up. They
get sorted by their Admins, but it just doesn't happen like that here.

The list may be a little slower.... so am I these days. But it is the spot that
feels like home.  It will always be my home spot for Woodworking.

I sure do wish photo posts could happen but hey you can't have it all. 

Regards,

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!
262820 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Like Brent, I am from the late 90’s.  And yes it is sad that there aren’t a ton
of discussion going on at once.  But like my flip phone, I like this format - it
is the only woodworkig forum that I am on.

Ed Minch
262821 Charles Driggs <cdinde@v...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Bruce wrote
> Perhaps we have talked out the issues?  Perhaps we have no new Galoots
> that need knowledge?  Perhaps I'm just  reading something in here that
> isn't present?
> 

Bruce, you are hardly the only person to have noticed the change.  I’ve been on
the Porch for almost as long as it has existed, and the change you speak of does
exist.  We have indeed lost a lot of the ‘old timers’, and traffic is down.   To
some extent I think it is because we have covered so many issues and come up
with new websites full of information that are now being maintained, along with
the Archives.  I do think that another of the contributing issues is that we
lost several people who were prolific sources of postings, either to the great
flea market in the sky or because they moved on to new interests.  Those folks
generated a lot of traffic, a lot of information flowed as a result, and some
generated a lot of laughter.  Unfortunately flea markets / boot sales are a
diminished source of finds & stories now that e*ay is a go-to place for many
tool sellers, but at least there still are some great individual sources for the
tools we can use or collect online, and participating here.

You may have noticed too that many of the regulars posting over the last year
are newbies in the context of the age of the Porch, and I see that as a good
thing.  I’m not surprised that many of our new participants are posting
questions we old hands have hashed out in the past, sometimes in long exchanges
of ideas.  But let’s face it, there has been a lot of opportunity to do that
over the last two decades, and much of it is found the Archives.  Unfortunately,
the Archives doesn’t go back all the way, so some very good discussions are not
in it.  The obvious question I was wondering a year ago was ”Is the Porch dying
off?”, and I came to the conclusion the answer was ‘No', many of us old hands
are just watching the questions being posted and responding only when we feel we
have something to add.  The Porch has hit a Mature stage of development.

I hope this group will keep going as long as Chris can keep hosting it, and if
he can’t do that anymore, someone else hopefully will step up.  After all, he
wasn’t the first host by any means.  The Porch is just too good a resource for
many people, including those who are yet to discover their interest in either
‘old tools’ or the Porch.

Charlie Driggs
Newark DE
262825 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
The Porch is our family.
Its not a temporary, wander past for a moment, kind of a place.
It may have something to do with the format and tradition. Because 
unlike the hurry up and post venue of other webgroups, the listserv 
format give a guy time to think a little more and work out his thoughts.
  But in the end, its really the inmates here.
Its where we share what we can of tools and woodworking with each other, 
but its also where we bring our greatest triumph and tragedy in life.
   Like family we don't have to see each other every single day to still 
love and be loved.
    yours Scott



-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
262828 Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Valid points, all.  Guess I'll quit wondering and just enjoy what we
still have.  I do believe we are family and many have done some nice
things for others over the years.  I suppose a lot of things have
changed over the last 20 years or so.  Me included.

Best to y'all and keep up the good work.
Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA
262829 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
On 2017-08-12 9:58 AM, Ed Minch wrote:
> Like Brent, I am from the late 90’s.  And yes it is sad that there aren’t a
ton of discussion going on at once.  But like my flip phone, I like this format
- it is the only woodworkig forum that I am on.
>
> Ed Minch

Me too. I like that it's in my face, I don't have to go looking to see 
what's new.

I archive the stuff I want to keep - pdfs sometimes, or just in an email 
folder. I may push those up to gmail sometime, a round to-it.

FWIW

Don

-- 
On Jan. 26, 2016, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) ruled that the
Government of Canada racially discriminates against 165,000 First Nations
children.

“Until all of us have made it, none of us have made it.” - Rosemary Brown, the
first Black woman elected to a Canadian legislature
262830 Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Examine the growth of YouTube, Pinterest, fakebook......there is even galootery
on twitter.

This feels like a call to recruit younger Galoots to the list.....

Sent from my iPhone
262833 Brent A Kinsey <brentpmed@c...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
I have only been following or on the list for the last 10 or 15 years, new by
galoot standards. But I can tell you that there is only one other group that I
would stop and drop a tool in the mail to one of them without thinking twice.
The women and men of this group are the most thoughtful, kindest and most
generous group I have had the pleasure to associate with.  There is a sense of--
well, security-- for lack of a better term. This format helps maintain the
extended family feel and certainly culls the trolls and flamers. I too wish
pictures were easier, but that is a small inconvenience for me.

Many times I read posts and just absorb knowledge, feeling I don't have enough
experience to offer meaningful comment. The few areas where I have experience I
share with the usual YMMV.  I suspect that is part of the reason why there is
less banter at times, many are absorbing from those of you with vastly more
experience. I also suspect that many times things that are thought to be common
knowledge are left unsaid, and newer Galoots may miss out on pearls of wisdom.

Ok, off to sharpen something...

Brent

Sent from my iPad
262834 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Bruce and all,

I love the list and it’s history and it’s content. 

The knowledge here would no doubt be beneficial to many people not yet on it.

In my opinion, It’s harder to find people willing to endure the text-only aspect
of the list.

If that aspect ever changes (to a Facebook group or forum software for instance)
then the potential audience is vastly greater.

At the beginning the text-only character favored good writing and was a low bar
for all. It was limiting in that you had to have internet access and an email
address, but that was the only limits. Slow internet? No prob. Computer didn’t
handle pics or video? Not an issue.

As time has gone on, it seems reasonable that an even higher bar would still not
exclude anyone.

Speaking only for myself, I would love us to not fade away simply because we
have fond memories of our text only roots.

Mine are very very fond.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
262835 Phil Koontz <phil.koontz@g...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
HI all--

Long ago, there was a quip that still means a lot to me about the OT list.
 "If you want content, write content."  The point, in case that's not
obvious, is that we're all responsible for what's on the list.  It's a
small point, but it prompts me to write.  Hope I still have something to
say.

I've been on the OT list since (IIRC) 1996, and still read a few selected
notes every day.  My life and interests have changed a lot over the years,
so as a kind of apology for posting less often, here's a brief outline of
those 20-some years with the list.

As a rank newbie, with my first IBM PC and Hotmail, I started my first wood
working shop in the closed back porch of our old farmhouse in Kansas.  With
almost no wood working tools, my first interest was acquisition.  In an
admission of shame, I recall actually breaking my first Stanley #5 (cheap
metallic Jack plane, Jeff) out of sheer frustration when I smashed the hell
out of a finger when the plane hooked on a knot in a piece of crappy white
pine.  I was glad to find the list, where people interested in wood and
hand tools were eager to help us helpless novices, and even to sell tools.
It was my first epiphany.  It was also when I learned the word "epiphany,"
by the way.  One of my first goals was to fill out a set of Stanley bench
planes, numbers 3 through 8.  I've never been one to spend a lot of money
on handtools, so the exotic number 1 and 2 were well out of the scope, but
I gradually settled on a preference for Type 11 Stanleys, mostly with
corrugated soles.  Why not--they were cheap and plentiful, and the
technology was pretty much perfected a century ago.  I remember a lot of
humor on the list from that era.  Paddy O'Deen, Gunterman, and others who
don't come to my mind immediately just now.  Remember the Satanley uproar
about shutting down the Blood and Gore site?  Esther Heller helped me out a
few times with acquiring the conventional courtesy of the list--I honestly
didn't know how to effectively and politely communicate by email in those
days.

Soon after that, I fell into a years long daily conversation with Larry
Holland.  At first it was about treadle lathes (he still uses one or more,
I believe--I never quite got over the hump to learning the craft).  That
gradually evolved into a folksy thing that I looked forward to every day.
We eventually met in person, during my move from Kansas to Alaska in 2000.

**Hi Larry--I miss those times.  Glad to see your occasional notes.**

During my last few years in Kansas, I started a small blacksmith and metal
working shop, mainly so-as to start making my own tools.  It was a fun
time.  I bought my first forge from an Amish antique shop in Yoder Kansas,
acquired a post drill, joined a blacksmithing association, and learned to
make Damascus (actually, pattern-welded) steel. One of my first knives was
made from an old Harley Davidson primary chain.  When we moved, I packed
the smithy up into a cargo box that weighed 5600 pounds.  That was more
than the rest of our freight combined. My first treadle lathe, made at and
with Larry's constant encouragement, was mortised by hand from 4 x 4" green
oak salvaged from some extra nice pallets.  It sorta worked, and I made a
few things with it, including some Osage orange mallets that I gave away to
the winner of the Bottom Feeder Challenge.  Does anyone else remember
that?  It's in the archive somewhere.

When we arrived in Alaska, our home was a tiny shack, and the WW tools
mostly stayed in crates, or way back there in Kansas.  Our son Ben
eventually moved to Alaska, and brought most of the remaining tools with
him.  We landed in a great place, and have prospered here in many ways.
Galena, Alaska is way off the road system, deep in the interior of Alaska.
It's about halfway between Fairbanks and Nome on the north bank of the
Yukon River.  There's a lot more to say about where we live, but I've
already said most of it, in a blog <http
://pdknz.livejournal.com/> that I
kept for ten years or more..  One of my regrets about getting older is that
I've let the blog lapse for a long time.

Alaska has been good to us, but my interests and work have changed over the
years.  There was a while that I tried to make a livelihood as a
blacksmith, and ended up doing production work on a single
product--holdfasts.  That lasted for, I dunno, five years or so, and I made
hundreds of them.  I never got very good as a blacksmith, but holdfasts are
dead easy, and they were a fad among wood workers for a while.  I
eventually used up my right arm on the job, and suddenly quit; literally
between one hammer swing and the next one. Some of the older list members
will recall my long time accomplice Jake the Russian, who was a working
partner in our enterprise, which we variously called Galena Village
Blacksmith or the Galena Blacksmith Guild.  The guild sort of evolved into
a steam boat project. That's all in the blog.  You could look it up--  Jake
is still around, living in Galena now; still more or less a squatter,
 although he has a house with a roof now, and no longer lives in a shack
dug into the permafrost.  His arm has started to go out too, so his
blacksmithing has begun to taper off.  He makes his own fuel--cooks
charcoal from our local white spruce.  His most recent projects have been
mostly forge welded reproductions of interesting old axes.  My metalwork
has evolved to fabrications and lathe work.  It's kinda fun, sometimes
useful, and much easier on my right shoulder.

As we have lived in Alaska, my wood work evolved from furniture to
carpentry, and then to log work and tool making.  Son Ben and I have been
logging most summers over the years, and we built his house, a recreational
log cabin, and our house, plus one for a local friend.  The log work is
round logs, full scribed, dovetailed, and worked green.  The first cabin
was in 2003 and 2004.  Ben's house was finished in 2006, and SWMBO/my house
in 2008.  The more recent friend's house is framed with lumber that was
milled from green trees.  Tim set a local record by starting and finishing
his house in a single summer.  We cut the first tree on June 3, and they
had a fire in the stove during September.  I milled the lumber, and Tim
learned carpentry on the job.  There have been a lot of sequels to that
house project, to the point that now, Tim is in charge of a local logging
company, and recently got his contractor's license to bid on a new office
project.  Life is interesting--I remember clearly when Tim bought his first
tool--a 28 ounce Stanley Fat Max claw hammer.

So, in conclusion (I always am glad to hear that phrase in a long
speech)--The OT list has been part of my personal history for about 20
years.  From newbie, to the acquisition phase, then the toolmaking thing,
home building and log work, and recently into mostly-retirement, I feel
like you guys have been friends and co-conspirators.  The list is changing,
of course.  We all are.

PK
Home on the Yukon.
262836 Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
This discussion comes up every few years, but for me, the "List" is like a warm
blanket on a cold night.  It is a return to a kinder, gentler time.  Modern
discussion list?  Bleh, not for me!  This format is the charm.

Lower traffic?  Life happens, and some move on to other interests and some have
simply passed on!  I may not post regularly but I check in everyday, and have
learned to speak only when I know something!

T.Z.

Anthony M. Zaffuto, President
Metaltech, Inc.
3547 Watson, Hwy.
DuBois, PA
(814) 375-9399
262837 "Brent Parkin" <brent@e...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
This whole conversation had me making the trip through the archives.  There
have been some fun times on the list.  Happily there will still be more.
Just different.

Anybody remember how when Pete and Patrick announced the IT Saws, we all
lost our minds getting on the list to order them?  Remember how everyone
would post their IT serial number on the bottom of their posts.  Then Eddie
Sirotech started making Adria saws and we jumped to get those as well.  I
have one of Petes and one of Eddies saws still.  They will only leave my
shop when the auction happens once I'm gone.

Remember Michael Lewis' stories about the old guy he worked with named Max?
I met Michael and the famous Steve Lamantia once in Seattle when I was out
that way on business.

Remember needing to aquire YB planes?

Great folks!!  All the Galoots are.  I tip my original Stealth hat to you
all.  And each time I walk in the shop and see my Galoot bumper sticker it
brings a smile.

Keep on keeping on you knuckle draggin Neanderthals.  

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!
262838 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Oh Man I had forgotten when Stanley shut down Blood and Gore
   We were all so outraged.

But the lawyers were saying just lay low and we will work it 
out.............
  Until that failed.

  I got a private 4 word email from Patrick....

  Smithers, release the hounds.........

  hahahah

  And we all pelted Stanley with every indignity and threat of lifetime 
retaliation we could think up. Galoots up in arms!! Torches and pitchforks!!
  And it worked

  ahhh we've seen some times alright
yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
262839 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑08‑12 Re: Concern for the list
Thanks for that Phil - you have led an interesting life and have contributed a
great deal to the list.  I feel the same way you do

Ed Minch
262840 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
Gracious Galoots,

I would simply like to say, as a relative newcomer from 2006, that this was
the place that helped me become a hand-tool only woodworker.  I simply
don't think that I could have enjoyed what I've done and developed the
understanding I have about woodworking tools without the generous,
knowledgeable people of this group.  Yes, posting photos is clunky and
sometimes traffic is not of direct interest to me, but when I want to share
something with people who get it, here's where I come.  When I have a
banal, oft-asked question that I need an answer for, I know I can ask it
here (or search the Archives) and get a genuinely good answer.  I, too,
miss the wonderful stories that more regularly populated the list and know
that there are too many folks who just aren't here to participate anymore.
I'm a member of a Facebook spoon-carving group that has considerable
traffic and I can ask questions there, but here I can peruse the answers to
my questions without searching through endless threads.

So, in closing, thanks everyone.  Let's just keep rolling along.  This is a
great place to be.

Regards,

Dwight
262843 Nuno Souto <wizofoz@i...> 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
I still receive the emails from the list and won't stop my membership.
But my life has changed dramatically and the health is not what it used 
to be.
My short vision in particular has almost gone, so my woodworking 
nowadays (mostly wood carving) is much reduced.

I also subscribe to the Facebook Hand Tools group which I find 
interesting for casual looks.

But I still tremendously enjoy reading what others are doing here and 
what the latest trends and ideas are.

So please keep it up folks.
For the sake of old farts like me and also for the young ones who may 
join in future, like I did so many years ago!

-- 
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wizofoz@i...
262844 James DUPRIE <j.duprie@c...> 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
I've been here since the days of rec.woodworking. I pretty much lurk now because
my main interest is making things - techniques, methodology, etc. The majority
of the content now is collector oriented, so I tend to skip those posts (so of
course, I never reply to them).
I still scan the list every day looking for the occasional bits that match my
interests, but the vast majority of the traffic I simply glance at the title,
and move on...
-James
262845 Archie England 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
I'm in  a somewhat similar mode as James, adapting a few of his statements (bold
print is mine):
                              I pretty much lurk now because my skills are still
not nearly as well developed as so many of you guys. The majority of the content
now is collector oriented, so I tend to skip those posts (so of course, I never
reply to them). I still scan the list every day looking for the occasional bits
that match my interests, but the vast majority of the traffic I simply glance at
the title, and move on...
-James

Archie
262846 Archie England 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
Well, the bold did not show up, where I stated that "my skills are not nearly as
well developed..."


And, one more comment (sorry to reply to my own post--bad form): I follow
SawMill Creek, Woodnet, Wood Central, and Woodtalk online, as well as checking
out this list daily. Every "list" appears much less engaged than in the past few
years. Woodtalk handtools is virtually dead. SMC and WoodCentral have the most
traffic, but it's nowhere near previous years activity. So, I suspect that we're
experiencing what everyone else is, too.

      From: Archie England via OldTools 
 To: James DUPRIE ; Galoots ; Bruce Zenge

 Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 8:19 AM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Concern for the list
   

  
I'm in  a somewhat similar mode as James, adapting a few of his statements (bold
print is mine):
                              I pretty much lurk now because my skills are still
not nearly as well developed as so many of you guys. The majority of the content
now is collector oriented, so I tend to skip those posts (so of course, I never
reply to them). I still scan the list every day looking for the occasional bits
that match my interests, but the vast majority of the traffic I simply glance at
the title, and move on...
-James

Archie  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
262848 Patrick Olguin 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
GGs,
As one of the durned idjits who started this list, I would say that things
change, but some traditions don't.. maybe?  I can certainly see the value in a
multi-media capable, thread-friendly forum. I still like this. I actually have
read more posts in the last couple of years than, say, from the late 2000's to
mebbe 2014. Life, drastic changes in how my various email platforms work (for
instance, Yahoo doesn't care that hundreds of thousands of subscribers can't
access their paid accounts via POP3/gmail), and possibly the feeling that I've
told all my fun stories (a total cop-out, of course) have greatly diminished my
participation.
This doesn't mean I don't love old tools, nor oldtools. I'm facebook friends
with a few Galoots, but I'm very circumspect about blending the two worlds of my
love/respect for woodDorking - and the gentle, supportive nature of discussions,
and what I've really become, which is a cranky old hippie, who uses a LOT of
salty language in describing the vagaries of non-woodworking topics. It's not
very pretty.
Necessity, and the harsh reality of too few hours in the day has just about
eliminated any furniture-making for me. Most of my hand-tooling skills have been
directed towards keeping the lights on. I had a vary adventurous 2016, where I
was disable from the day-typing job (bi-lateral carpal tunnel syndrome), and
then subsequently laid-off (try finding a day job when you're 55+... how the
hell did that happen?). Turns out I'm reasonably efficient (spell that
profitable) at doing house wiring, plumbing, flooring, and just your basic
remodeling skills.  The famous Gerstner chest, and IT saws accompany me to my
various gigs, but most work is accomplished with an array of air/electrical
powered tools that'd founder a medium cruiser.
I did recently bag a serviceable old jack plane from Tony Seo, just because it
was affordable and I felt like having it :-). It's still in the shipping carton.
And now I have to run off and finish installing a tankless water heater.
Grateful for all of you.
Best,Paddy
p.s. I still use shellac, and make sure my alcohol is fresh!

      From: Archie England via OldTools 
 To: Archie England ; James DUPRIE ;
Galoots ; Bruce Zenge 
 Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 6:25 AM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Concern for the list
   
Well, the bold did not show up, where I stated that "my skills are not nearly as
well developed..."


And, one more comment (sorry to reply to my own post--bad form): I follow
SawMill Creek, Woodnet, Wood Central, and Woodtalk online, as well as checking
out this list daily. Every "list" appears much less engaged than in the past few
years. Woodtalk handtools is virtually dead. SMC and WoodCentral have the most
traffic, but it's nowhere near previous years activity. So, I suspect that we're
experiencing what everyone else is, too.

      From: Archie England via OldTools 
 To: James DUPRIE ; Galoots ; Bruce Zenge

 Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 8:19 AM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] Concern for the list
  

  
I'm in  a somewhat similar mode as James, adapting a few of his statements (bold
print is mine):
                              I pretty much lurk now because my skills are still
not nearly as well developed as so many of you guys. The majority of the content
now is collector oriented, so I tend to skip those posts (so of course, I never
reply to them). I still scan the list every day looking for the occasional bits
that match my interests, but the vast majority of the traffic I simply glance at
the title, and move on...
-James

Archie  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...

  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
262851 Glen Canaday <gcanaday@g...> 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
I am not so salt as ...really most of the list, but there are some of us
youngers (I'm 43) who, watching by the wayside, have firsthand witnessed
the death of handwritten language and thus its spoken form (attn
millennials: if you never use an apostrophe again in your life you will be
correct somewhere between 80-90% of the time). My grandfather didn't care
much for craftsmanship save that it was affordable and didn't look like
total crap, and my dad thus had no compass with which to direct me. But I
still found a way and my daughter will have a rough direction to gaze when
she is of an age to appreciate the doings of things. I'll see to it. She's
two now.

I have a suggestion. At many a M-WTCA meeting, I have overheard the greys
(my parents) complaining about the millennials (my children) in ways I
don't recall hearing when I was younger. Usually this is over the free
donut at certain tables only and not when a sale is at stake. They even had
the gall to do so in the physical presence of my younger wife who is a
member of that generation (she no longer frequents auxiliary events).
Instead of complaining, I would like to suggest to them to throw off their
stodgy demeanor and embrace the passage of the torch. The Millennials are
what we have to work with to keep the flame burning brightly and
withholding the details because of possible hipster mentality and dress
only serves to hasten the demise of crafts and the implements of creation.
Check ebay (and etsy!) for lamps made of Millers Falls planes for a
facepalm-worthy adventure. Heart in right place, brain in left field. I
think it can be corrected, though there is no saving that plane.

Thankfully this attitude toward younger would-be craftspeople is nearly
entirely absent from the Porch and that I only see it when in smacking
distance from mean ol' grandmas. I absolutely believe that the Porch is
worth mentioning, profusely, in those places that the younger and less
literate persons may frequent. We can teach them to read!

I haven't any clue how to go about posting YouTube videos but the idea has
crossed my mind many times.

 G in the north
262853 Brandon <brandoch52@g...> 2017‑08‑13 Re: Concern for the list
Many years ago I wrote an opinion piece to Gristmill regarding the graying
of the association and the dangers of irrelevance as younger members did
not attend meetings due to work and family responsibilities.

The response was zip. In the EAIA I was asked to create a new website. I
brought on bill Rainford to do the technical work. At various meetings I
was met with considerable pushback about why we needed something new. I
instituted Shavings being moved to a digital delivery and got flack for
going to a mailing list format for delivery. And so on until I resigned as
chair of the web committee and turned it over to Bill. I did manage to
produce the Chronicle DVD and the Jacobs Stanley book thanks to Toby Hall
running interference.

You can see where this is leading. There is stiff refusal to accept change.
That's a large reason why I moved my focus to Facebook. On fb I've run into
a generational conflict from both ages.

So what's to do? Mailing lists are viewed as archaic technology by many.
Bulletin boards are unkown to many. The immediacy of fb, instagram,
Pinterest, tumblr etc is what many want. Then there is the problem of the
cultish followings of net personalities in the Woodworking and history
communities. Either you are for or you against.

On fb I've created a number of groups, some public, some closed, some
secret. The public groups are the most difficult to manage, not
surprisingly.

My take is that it would be good to have a closed Oldtools group open only
to list membership at first. We did this when leaving rec.woodworking. As
bugs were worked out the  list was opened to new members under strict
supervision.

I run a group The Doctrine Of Handy Works that is hyper focused much as the
oldtools list is. So far so good as we are careful who is accepted. perhaps
a fb group adjunct to the list as a means to segue formats is now the most
sensible way to preserve and maintain the list?
262852 Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
This topic comes up every few years as us Galoots worry about the
decline in traffic and content on The List. I have noticed that  the
volume has dropped off even faster the past year or two. I assumed it
was because we lost Jim Thompson who was probably single-handedly
responsible for half the content on the list these past ten years.

I haven't been actively posting to The List at all lately, mostly due
to a lack of free time. I'm still involved with old tools, more than
ever actually. I just don't have any time to get in the shop and make
stuff. My woodworking consists mainly of restoring, tuning, and
testing tools. It's fun but not noteworthy enough to post to the list.

There are new technologies that the younger generations gravitate to
instead of email. I feel like web forums came and went.A couple of
years ago I finally I quit following the few forums I was a member of
for a number of reasons. There area lot of Facebook groups (maybe too
many) that offer a variety of content of all sorts and quality.
Occasionally you'll see a Porch Alumnus pop up on one of the Facebook
groups. I saw Bill Taggert over in the Hand Tool Woodworking group the
other day! Twitter is fine, but it's mostly tweets linking to FB or IG
posts, blog articles, etc. The medium doesn't exactly lend itself to
conversation..

On the other hand, Instagram has some truly amazing hand tool related
content. I'm kicking myself for being late to that party as I feel
like I'm still catching up finding new people to follow. I'm
fascinated and inspired by the work that people like Richard Arnold,
Freddy Roman, Abel Rios, Chris Vesper, Anneofalltrades, Peter
Follansbee, and others put on IG. If you don't know who these people
are you should really check out their work. And those are just the
folks that I've found so far.. there's so much out there.

Anyhow, long story, short.. it shouldn't be a surprise that OldTools
traffic is declining. We haven't seen many new members at all in the
past 5-10 years and many of the members we have are getting older or
finding other hobbies. If you want to fix the lack of content then
post something! Just don't ask what the nib is for unless you want to
polish that spittoon over there in the corner, and it's pretty nasty
right now.

Josh in CT
262854 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
James wrote:


            
262855 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
> On Aug 13, 2017, at 19:29 , Derek Cohen  wrote:
> 
> I am of the mind that it is time for the List to make a change to a format
that includes visual material (photos and video).

Nope. I doubt Chris has the bandwidth or server space for
that, but I'll unsubscribe if the list starts accepting
attachments. If everyone on here was tech savvy enough to
create low-res images, maybe it would work, but I KNOW
some galoots would think nothing of dropping 4 MB of
images into a post! Those of us on slow DSL connections
would be overwhelmed in short order.

Speaking for myself, I haven't had time to build furniture
lately, since I picked up another expensive hobby or two
(shooting/reloading/instructing). However, I still have
my user stash of old tools, and employed various handsaws,
hammers, and planes in building chicken nest boxes last
week. Nobody wants to hear about planing plywood, though :).

Adam (who spent the afternoon scraping and sanding his
grandpa's .22 rifle stock, and discovered it had figure)
262856 Steve Jones <stjones@k...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
GGs;

Been hanging around the Porch long enough to buy Paddylac and make a
Guntershave. How about a private oldtools Facebook group with an
oldtools list bio as a requirement for admission? Just de-lurking long
enough to think out loud. Feel free to pass the spittoon.

Steve in Kokomo

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Derek Cohen 
wrote:
262857 Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
I'll preface this by saying I belong to both the MWTCA and EAIA and
probably will be a member for life.

Having said that, the "greying problem" can't be a surprise to either
of them. Both organizations are virtually irrelevant to the younger
generations interested in hand tools today. There is a _tremendous_
amount of interest in hand tools among younger people (say 40 and
younger). The thing is, these guys and girls want tools to use in
their shops. The demand and market for user hand tools is higher than
ever. These people couldn't care less about collecting. In fact,
collectors are often vilified as hoarders.. greedy batards who are
keeping all those good tools for themselves. They don't want to be
collectors. Have you read the EAIA or MWTCA periodicals from the
perspective of a hand tool woodworker not interested in collecting?
There's nothing there of interest to them. You might as well send them
the AARP magazine. Have you looked at the schedule of events at a
MWTCA meet from the perspective of a woodworker? There's not much draw
there other than the tailgate sale.

The thing is, the younger generations are going to be the next
generation of tool collectors once they gain some age, maybe some
extra income, and time. Both the EAIA and MWTCA would do well to draw
them in with some content that actually interests them while
continuing to discuss the history and development these of tools so
the collecting seed is sewn and maybe they start buying rare tools and
attending the MWTCA meets later in life.

I think about this a lot, as you can tell. I had more to say but I'm
running out of steam and the Sox just tied it up so my attention is
elsewhere ;)

Josh in CT
262858 Brandon <brandoch52@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
Here here! Well put. When, on the past, attempts have been made to expand
the scope of both groups the response has been that status quo is the
choice.

The decades long research into the histories of tools and tool makers
reached a zenith and is now in decline. I can see this in the scope and
quality of articles in both Association journals as compared to the content
over their respective lives.

It is a sad truth that any community can outlive its relevance if internal
growth is stagnant.

Given that, what's next? So I'll put the question: if a Facebook group was
created expressly for the oldtools list, following the precepts and
restrictions of the list, would this be of interest?

On Sun, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:21 PM Joshua Clark 
wrote:
262859 Guy in Florida <mill15716athollow@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
I own a group on FB called Antique Woodworking Hand Tools – Post and Boast
that as of my writing this has 4,122 members. Most every time I go on the
site, there are a dozen or so people that want to join.
However, most members DO NOT post, do they read the postings or look at the
photos? I don't know.
It is group is for posting photographs of before and after tools, those
woodworking hand tools that are gritty and restored to spiffy. The valuable
tool you find at an estate sale for a give away price and the unusual or
“what is it” tools.
Perhaps somewhat corny but some of us like it.

I myself am not a millennial but rather a generation Xer or the very very
tail end of the baby boomers. I remember my father (WW2 generation) thought
our generation was sh!t and made no bones about saying it! This didn't help
matters and made things worse.

When I was in 5th grade, I had a teacher that unlike the other teachers in
previous lower grades made history interesting. It is mostly because of him
that I have an interest in history and I dedicated my first book to him. He
once brought us to a lecture by an older gentleman that was a local
historian and he stated, he was visiting local elementary schools because
one of us children would take his place in the future. One of those
children was me!

Perhaps if Old Tools made themselves more relevant to the millennials and
the largest generation group on this list (whom ever they are), it might
attract new members and more posts, No, I have no idea these changes could
be.

Getting back to the group in question, I think it can be summed up that:
1. There is a lot of competition from other groups (I'm probably quilty of
taking posts away from Old Tools).
2. Some members have talked themselves out.
3. Members have drifted away from Old Tools, because of, illness, death,
other interests and SENSORY OVERLOAD.

Just my $0.02
Brother Lou
262860 Brandon <brandoch52@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
And I was the owner of antique tools buy sell and trade , a fb group now
nearing 12,000 most of whom don't post but lurk. I abdicated recently.

Browser based forums, fb groups and oldtools list. Following oldtools on an
iPhone is difficult whereas following on a computer is easy in comparison.
Just now I'm on the iPhone.

The recent multiplication of antique tools and traditional crafts fb groups
seems populated by the same active people which is why I've pulled back
from most and focused on The Doctrine Of Handy Works group.

Giving oldtools selective promotion may be a way to change the tenor of the
list with new membership so I agree with that idea. But overall it's a
conundrum I'm puzzling over

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:29 AM Guy in Florida 
wrote:
262862 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
My presence on FB is an alternate name and a 1990's passport photo.  I 
trust Suckerbers and his minions about like I trust Sand Fleas, 
Australian  brown snakes,  and mosquitoes  The internet has too damn 
much information on  me is as and a  Bio on FB for the Phishing scammers 
would not be something I'd participate in
262864 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
On 2017-08-14 7:17 AM, Cliff wrote:
> My presence on FB is an alternate name and a 1990's passport photo. I 
> trust Suckerbers and his minions about like I trust Sand Fleas, 
> Australian  brown snakes,  and mosquitoes  The internet has too damn 
> much information on  me is as and a  Bio on FB for the Phishing 
> scammers would not be something I'd participate in 

I second that! IMO, FB sucks.

Don
262865 Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
Wow I don't post a lot, heck I don't even particularly read a lot. I pick
and choose topics that presently interest me. I collect sites from other
posts (many now sadly defunct) for reference. And I hate to admit but
sometimes i enjoy the torts and retorts - esp if the moms have to shut
things down. Unfortunately without gladiators or public executions
sometimes the conflicts here are all we get in way of drama (or at least
tool related drama)

What I do like is the old names and some of the old faces that I have met.
I'm not personal friends with a lot but I have met my share, have exchanged
galootaclaus gifts with many over the years and probably forgotten a few
people too, only to be reminded of them when I am thinking a thought or
telling a story of something I did long ago. Its then, with the
recollection of that thought that my memory is triggered of a long ago
galoot - one who moved on in life or in death.

I really hate the old technology that we use, but understand that there's a
lot who won't or can't come into the new. These old rusty and dusty faces
are the guys I trust. I trust their opinions, I trust their morals with
respect to gifts, to exchanges of tools, and with money.

This group has been a big part of who I am – even if that’s mostly to you
all as a lurker. I have lived in New Hampshire and in my early early days
learned of Cranes from this list, I moved almost 20 years ago to GA and
learned of places to go and things to see from this list. I have had and
raised kids and been divorced and remarried all while on this list. I think
the collective “WE" was at least in part what has kept St Roy on TV and
helped get all those DVDs out to the world.

I would hate to lose the old guys, would love to have more pics but if not
I am willing to put up with the glitches, and know anyone interested in
tools will hear of us. And out of that population those who really are
interested and consider it worth it - they will join. I would love new
links and new pictures but with that comes a lot of new faces, some would
be welcome, some would be great but a lot would be noise. There likely will
be a day when one of us has to turn the lights out, but its these names and
these guys…including the newbies that stay that we need to keep together.

Sorry didn’t really contribute much in the way of suggestions, but I do get
both sides.



Scott in Duluth
262866 Charlie Driggs <cdinde@v...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
Brandon,

My thoughts on this are mixed, but I recognize that we might need to change
platforms if this group, and its relatively unique collective behavior, is to
thrive for years to come.   It seems to me that we have two ways to explore the
points you've made:

A) if you could lay out options and maybe list the key positives and negatives
so most of us would understand them;

B) you suggest a specific approach and explain why you think it might be the
best path to preserve this group yet leave the opportunity open for new
participation.

I may or may not be representative of the group in that I have intentionally
avoided Facebook, Twitter, etc because of known personal security / identity
theft instances.  I'm reasonably comfortable with the current structure of
OldTools, but if our type of platform will effectively become obsolete then
perhaps it is time for migration to another platform that hopefully preserves
access to the Archives.

 IT is not my area of expertise, but I know others in our group have strong
skills in this area.

We ought to be consciously be thinking about whether it is time for another
migration, and Chris should be engaged in the conversation because of his
volunteer role as Listmom and host for many years.

If there are good reasons to consider this question now, then perhaps we need a
SurveyMonkey kind of vote on options & preferences once we understand them?

That's my reaction, let's see what others think.

Charlie

Sent from my iPhone
262867 William Ghio <bghio@m...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
> On Aug 14, 2017, at 1:39 PM, Charlie Driggs  wrote:
> 
> 
> I may or may not be representative of the group in that I have intentionally
avoided Facebook, Twitter, etc because of known personal security / identity
theft instances.  I'm reasonably comfortable with the current structure of
OldTools, but if our type of platform will effectively become obsolete then
perhaps it is time for migration to another platform that hopefully preserves
access to the Archives.

Me too… Remember when we had to discourage “me too’s” to keep list traffic down?

I have been around since about week two of the list and am quite happy w/ the
structure. I have tried the other groups several times w/o satisfaction. It
lasts for a while but then I forget to go look and the thread is lost. What I
like about the list is it just shows up, I don’t I have to go to the web to look
for it. As Charlie has said, I too work avoid too much web exposure and am in
the never Facebook camp. That said, I would love to be able to post pictures. I
just went over to Lumberjocks and there are 18 different forums, about ten of
which looked like they could be interesting to me. I know there  are good and
knowledgable people over there (probably a lot of youse guys) and plenty of good
answers, but seems to me that format just takes too much work to keep up with.

Bill
262869 Kenneth Stagg <kenneth.stagg@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:03 PM, William Ghio  wrote:
>
> Me too… Remember when we had to discourage “me too’s” to keep list traffic
down?

Yep, I remember that.  I've been around almost as long as Bill, though
my participation has been spotty for years now (hopefully if my shop
area is ever finished I'll be more active) and I had to admonish some
people about it during a stint as list mom.

I'm not one who works hard to limit my online exposure and I'm OK with
Facebook, but I prefer email lists for hobby/interest based community.
This format makes it easy to pick out a portion of one or more
preceding messages to highlight and/or respond to them.  It also, at
least with continuing encouragement from the list moms (great job,
folks!) to prune quoted text, seems to help us reply thoughtfully
rather than just dashing off a quick note. It's nice that I can come
back to the list from an absence and go back through my email to find
where I left off and pick it up again.  And having the messages in my
Oldtools email folder makes it simple to search through it for
previously posted information.

In the end I'm here not just for information but for the community
we've built - a community centered around tools and methods that many
consider archaic, slow and cumbersome but that we consider more
interesting, restful and simple.  Sort of like the email list that we
use to keep in touch with our friends all over the globe.

-Ken
262870 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
Maybe we can keep what we have and improve it. Two ideas:

1. Does the technology exist today that would allow folks to send attachments,
but the server side would strip the attachments resize to reasonable dimensions
and place a link instead?

Surely it does. 

2. Perhaps a tier system where one could choose to receive the emails WITH the
media or rich formatting, OR they could choose to receive the emails with links
instead.

It’s like an upgrade to the individual/digest toggle. 

I’d much rather pay Chris for hosting.




We get to keep text only folks. 
We get to keep slow internet folks.
We get to keep limited data cap folks. 

All of them would only download what they click same as now. 

Folks who already know how to host a pic and send a link could still do so.
Folks who already know how to encode and host a video and send a link could
still do so.

We would add the glorious and easy ability for  folks to be able to share pics. 

Some would rather see a pic than a thousand words of my blather anyway.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
262871 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Kenneth Stagg 
wrote:

>
> I'm not one who works hard to limit my online exposure and I'm OK with
> Facebook, but I prefer email lists for hobby/interest based community.
> This format makes it easy to pick out a portion of one or more
> preceding messages to highlight and/or respond to them.  It also, at
> least with continuing encouragement from the list moms (great job,
> folks!) to prune quoted text, seems to help us reply thoughtfully
> rather than just dashing off a quick note. It's nice that I can come
> back to the list from an absence and go back through my email to find
> where I left off and pick it up again.  And having the messages in my
> Oldtools email folder makes it simple to search through it for
> previously posted information.
>
> In the end I'm here not just for information but for the community
> we've built


I am with Ken on this one.  I am a member of exactly one FB group (with
some of you all), and it drives me batty.  Trying to find stuff one day
later is a bear, much less a week or two.  Thank goodness for Chris and the
archives.

I avoid Saw Mill Creek and Lumberjocks for daily reading, too dang
fragmented.  Occasionally a search will take me to a thread there, and a
lot of you good and knowledgeable people are there too, which helps answer
questions.  But not something I want to participate in daily.

And there are those FB people who delete a post after you've answered their
question so no one else gets the benefit.

And those who think sand blasting and disk grinders are great ways to clean
up tools.

The only good sides to the FB group are that there are a lot of
un-knowledgeable people out there buying tools that I already know about,
and can answer their questions.  And since its a bit more diverse that WW,
I see a lot of different tools, and get to have fun looking up what they
are.  (Since traffic is down here, I use my free time there.)

Which is why I am still here after almost 18 years (guessing).  You guys
and gals are great, both as Wood workers and as people.

-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA, no IT saw or Maroon galoot hat to reference, though
I do have a YBIP to restore one day soon.
262874 "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
As someone who has been around since nearly the beginning (June of '96),
guess I'll toss in my two cents...

I was very active for the first five or six years, then not so much,
primarily because jobs I had were very demanding for both time and travel -
something that continues to this day. It's not that I wasn't interested, it
was more that by the time I saw a question, it had been answered multiple
times. I also didn't get much shop time either. But I still try to read the
emails at least once every couple days and often wish I could offer more
than the occasional "very nice."  I for one, hope that Oldtools continues in
something resembling its current format despite my lack of participation,
which could well change after I retire early next year. For anyone who
cares, here is this geezer's  "why I love the Porch" list followed by a
couple nitpicks.

1. It's not commercial. Facebook, et al are money making machines and you
must "pay" in some way, shape or form for using it.

2. It's genteel. In spite of the fact this list is primarily composed of
men, the language and tenor used is mostly appropriate for a child, so long
as they can't find Natalie's postings in the archives. And on the rare
occasions that someone has let their personal opinions about subjects other
than tools and woodworking get in the way, they are quickly stifled by the
ListMom(s).

3. The Archives. While the search capabilities are not as good as before,
there is a wealth of knowledge there that is fairly easily found. Try that
with Facebook.

4. OT Terms: What else needs to be said?

5. Camaraderie: I can't tell you how many friends I've made as a result of
this list. On the other hand, I wouldn't dare friend anyone on FB who I
didn't already know.

6. Almost zero spamming, phishing, scamming, trolling, etc. Bet I can count
on one hand the number of times I've seen malicious postings get onto the
list.

7. Galootaclaus: I participate only occasionally because things interfere,
but try that on Facebook or any other forum.

Nitpicks

1. I miss FMM. Remember the anticipation? Spending most of that Monday
morning doing little at work other than read FS posts?  Yes, people like Pat
Leach and Josh Clark are out there, but there was lot of people selling
stuff they found at garage and estate sales for very reasonable prices. It
was amazing what a newbie with limited funds could find for very little
money. And there were OT terms (try that with *Bay).

2. Wish we could add attachments. Yes, I understand why we can't and accept
it. Yes, you can put links in your post. Unfortunately, those links don't
always exist in perpetuity. I'd love to be able to look at photos people
posted years ago from the archives.

One last thought...

Somehow over the years OldTools became so focused on old tools, often
venturing for into collector territory, that those who were more interested
in making stuff and learning technique were left out. To that, let me quote
from Tom Bruce's original announcement regarding this list, "... We
endeavour to give SATISFACTION, EDIFICATION, and ENLIGHTENMENT to those who
have a BURNING INTEREST in OLD TOOLS, RESTORATION, TRADITIONAL WOODCRAFT and
the elusive problems of HOW THEM OLD DUDES DID IT..." So, feel free (and
please do) post about techniques, historical references, furniture examples
whether you made them or in a museum, and ask questions about how people
approach challenges you have. This isn't just about mystery tools and how
much is my burfl is worth. 

Okay, one more last thought...

THANKS TO ALL THE LISTMOMS, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!

Dennis Heyza - who is thrilled about the topic of next year's symposium at
CW and is checking daily for registration to open
Utica, MI
IT #191 (stuck that in for fun)
262876 Glen Canaday <gcanaday@g...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
I'm mostly a lurker with a posted bio. I read a lot and subscribe only to
the digest. Email on a phone is atrocious mostly because it is so difficult
to do any text editing. I have gone to great efforts to avoid quoting the
entire digest but to no avail - nowadays on the rare occasion that I post I
copy the subject of the appropriate thread and just compose a new message
to the whole list.

I personally think that the mailing list approach, while obsolete, is
wonderful.

I wonder if what we need isn't a move to another platform but something
else entirely...like maybe a way to integrate the list itself with some
sort of texting-like or long-format twitter technology? Something that
takes the list as it is and presents it in a messenger-like format for
those who have grown used to instant gratification? Think of it as an app
for a mobile device that sends an actual email, and accepts and displays
mail from the list as if it were a text message. No clue how to integrate
photo sharing without a dedicated server.

Essentially ..no new house, just a new hole cut for a shiny new front door?

Only thinking out loud.

Glen in the north
262877 galoot@l... 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
Quoting Brandon :

>
> Given that, what's next? So I'll put the question: if a Facebook
group was
> created expressly for the oldtools list, following the precepts and
> restrictions of the list, would this be of interest?

ABSOLUTELY not!  I do not care to join any outfit that is "free:, that 
means becoming a product sold to advertisers instead of a customer.  
Facebook in particular has a nasty reputation for screwing up privacy 
and having things supposedly deleted pop up again unexpectedly....

Esther
262879 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑08‑14 Re: Concern for the list
Have you all noticed the irony of discussing how little traffic there is on the
list generating the most traffic we have had in a while.

And if photos of any sort help, how about this - a look at harvesting guitar
wood

Guitar tops are traditionally made of spruce, and there are a lot of spruces
that will work - some are made of pine.  Trees are cut, then the tops are split
and sawn out immediately, They will dry in a couple of months with no splitting
because there is so much surface area for the thickness.  In fact the wood is so
thin that a guitar reacts to humidity in a few hours.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/12803247195/in/album-72157641582
124835/

There is text below each picture

Ed Minch
262882 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
Very interesting.  Since we're on the porch, and since I have a cold beer
in my hands, may as well add to the conversation, right? My poor ol' dad
(an upholsterer and furniture maker, among other things) hated spruce,
because it would literally explode in the fireplace and shoot coals all
over the damn place.  Legno del diavolo, he called it (devil's wood).  We
typically burned hard maple and white oak cut offs (from wooden frames for
couches- called "Chesterfields"- like the cigarettes- for some reason).

   Never made any musical instruments, but looks fascinating. BTW wet
spruce rootlets are very strong and pliable- great for emergency repairs in
the wilderness.  Found out later that the natives had used these for canoe
building for ages.
Cheers from a lake side in beautiful Ontario... with plenty of very loud
loons, and a beaver just swam by to examine a tree that fell into the lake
from a huge storm the other day.  He just took a look at it and kept going
further west- lots of trees down this year.
    I had to cut up a bunch of beaver felled trees at the camp this past
spring.  Trees that got caught up on the way down, and so the little
engineers couldn't drag them into the lake.  Beavers btw, are surprisingly
large, with heads the size of a small dog.  I'm guessing the guy that swam
by tonight was 30 to 40 pounds?  Not sure, but he was about twice the size
of my doggo ( who was going unpleasantly nuts that a rodent was boldly
trespassing on 'his' territory).  The beaver just looked over, nonchalant
like, said 'Fffffft' in Beaver, and swam calmly onwards. Back home, a
resurgence of the beaver population has devastated the city tree planting
efforts in the local quarry rehabilitation project.  A beaver also pulled a
friends large husky to the bottom of the quarry lake last fall. Thankfully
the shaken dog got away somehow, but it was a close call.  Lesson learned,
don't let your dog off leash near beavers while they are in the water.  If
they can pull trees in the water, they can pull your dog down too. That's
all for now, my beers done!
Cheers
Claudio
262883 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
On 2017-08-14 5:16 PM, galoot@l... wrote:
> Quoting Brandon :
>
>>
>> Given that, what's next? So I'll put the question: if a Facebook
> group was
>> created expressly for the oldtools list, following the precepts and
>> restrictions of the list, would this be of interest?
>
> ABSOLUTELY not!  I do not care to join any outfit that is "free:, that 
> means becoming a product sold to advertisers instead of a customer.  
> Facebook in particular has a nasty reputation for screwing up privacy 
> and having things supposedly deleted pop up again unexpectedly....
>
> Esther 
In reality, FB and other social media sites are merely a means of 
delivering eyeballs, ears, habits and personal preferences ( including 
buying habits, political leanings etc) to eager advertisers, and to 
anyone else who wants to stick a nose where it doesn't belong. The 
content is not the product, the users are! That's what FB sells to 
advertisers. Switch to social media, and I have better ways to waste my 
time - browsing the Oldtools archive f'rinstance!

My C$0.02
Don

-- 
On Jan. 26, 2016, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) ruled that the
Government of Canada racially discriminates against 165,000 First Nations
children.

“Until all of us have made it, none of us have made it.” - Rosemary Brown, the
first Black woman elected to a Canadian legislature
262884 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
On 2017-08-14 5:24 PM, Ed Minch wrote:
> Guitar tops are traditionally made of spruce, and there are a lot of spruces
that will work - some are made of pine.  Trees are cut, then the tops are split
and sawn out immediately, They will dry in a couple of months with no splitting
because there is so much surface area for the thickness.  In fact the wood is so
thin that a guitar reacts to humidity in a few hours.
>
> > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/12803247195/in/album-7215764
1582124835/
>
> There is text below each picture
>
> Ed Minch

I know some folks don't like Flicker since they introduced ads, but at 
least you can just click past them!

FWIW

Don

-- 
On Jan. 26, 2016, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (CHRT) ruled that the
Government of Canada racially discriminates against 165,000 First Nations
children.

“Until all of us have made it, none of us have made it.” - Rosemary Brown, the
first Black woman elected to a Canadian legislature
262885 Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
Woo! I can contribute. My only uncle is a luthier and sells tone
woods. He specializes in spruce tops and domestic hardwoods to replace
the traditional rosewoods that are now hard to come by.  I'm lucky
enough to get a lot of his second quality lumber which includes a lot
of eastern red spruce. It's by far my favorite wood to work with hand
tools. It's harder than most softwoods. It's not stringy at all.
Striking moldings on it with molding planes is sublime. It also takes
paint perfectly. I use it all the time and just love it.

That's all.. just thought I'd share ;)

Josh
262886 walt cheever <walt2che@g...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
I've mostly read and made few postings over the last 10 years.  Learned a lot,
and sort of moved my main interests to wood turning.  Don't do fb, and other new
variants,  I'm willing to learn if that's what I've gotta do to keep up.

If we change, it would be nice to  still have folks' personality come through,
as well as  longer how-to posts.

Suggest we keep the subject matter as wide as possible to encourage a wide group
of interests participating..

I'm coming up on 80 next bd, so need a young folk to replace me soon.
262887 <gtgrouch@r...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
I was about to chime in, then Dennis sent this gem.

I agree with him, only he said it a lot better than I could have.

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

---- Dennis Heyza  wrote: 

=============
As someone who has been around since nearly the beginning (June of '96),
guess I'll toss in my two cents...

I was very active for the first five or six years, then not so much,
primarily because jobs I had were very demanding for both time and travel -
something that continues to this day. It's not that I wasn't interested, it
was more that by the time I saw a question, it had been answered multiple
times. I also didn't get much shop time either. But I still try to read the
emails at least once every couple days and often wish I could offer more
than the occasional "very nice."  I for one, hope that Oldtools continues in
something resembling its current format despite my lack of participation,
which could well change after I retire early next year. For anyone who
cares, here is this geezer's  "why I love the Porch" list followed by a
couple nitpicks.

1. It's not commercial. Facebook, et al are money making machines and you
must "pay" in some way, shape or form for using it.

2. It's genteel. In spite of the fact this list is primarily composed of
men, the language and tenor used is mostly appropriate for a child, so long
as they can't find Natalie's postings in the archives. And on the rare
occasions that someone has let their personal opinions about subjects other
than tools and woodworking get in the way, they are quickly stifled by the
ListMom(s).

3. The Archives. While the search capabilities are not as good as before,
there is a wealth of knowledge there that is fairly easily found. Try that
with Facebook.

4. OT Terms: What else needs to be said?

5. Camaraderie: I can't tell you how many friends I've made as a result of
this list. On the other hand, I wouldn't dare friend anyone on FB who I
didn't already know.

6. Almost zero spamming, phishing, scamming, trolling, etc. Bet I can count
on one hand the number of times I've seen malicious postings get onto the
list.

7. Galootaclaus: I participate only occasionally because things interfere,
but try that on Facebook or any other forum.

Nitpicks

1. I miss FMM. Remember the anticipation? Spending most of that Monday
morning doing little at work other than read FS posts?  Yes, people like Pat
Leach and Josh Clark are out there, but there was lot of people selling
stuff they found at garage and estate sales for very reasonable prices. It
was amazing what a newbie with limited funds could find for very little
money. And there were OT terms (try that with *Bay).

2. Wish we could add attachments. Yes, I understand why we can't and accept
it. Yes, you can put links in your post. Unfortunately, those links don't
always exist in perpetuity. I'd love to be able to look at photos people
posted years ago from the archives.

One last thought...

Somehow over the years OldTools became so focused on old tools, often
venturing for into collector territory, that those who were more interested
in making stuff and learning technique were left out. To that, let me quote
from Tom Bruce's original announcement regarding this list, "... We
endeavour to give SATISFACTION, EDIFICATION, and ENLIGHTENMENT to those who
have a BURNING INTEREST in OLD TOOLS, RESTORATION, TRADITIONAL WOODCRAFT and
the elusive problems of HOW THEM OLD DUDES DID IT..." So, feel free (and
please do) post about techniques, historical references, furniture examples
whether you made them or in a museum, and ask questions about how people
approach challenges you have. This isn't just about mystery tools and how
much is my burfl is worth. 

Okay, one more last thought...

THANKS TO ALL THE LISTMOMS, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE!

Dennis Heyza - who is thrilled about the topic of next year's symposium at
CW and is checking daily for registration to open
Utica, MI
IT #191 (stuck that in for fun)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

OldTools@s...
262896 Paul Honore <lawnguy44@g...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
Interesting conversation.  I've been hanging out here since the mid 
90's, but I haven't posted in probably 10 years and decided it was time 
to let everyone I'm still here - Its good to see many names from the 
past still here as well. My kids tell me email is so "passay", but I 
still like it. Seems like everyone texts these days instead. Many 
memories from the past - staying up late on a Sunday nite to get first 
shot at the FMM guys who posted after midnight; the "meet" at the Shaker 
Village in Hancock Mass where Roy Underhill was doing demos, the Gunter 
shave, the video of Galoot shops (still have it and can probably make 
copies if anyone is interested), the Bill Spicer auctions in Rhode 
Island (there's one this coming Saturday), might even stop in at the MJD 
auction in a few weeks in Nashua.(assume there is still tailgating in 
the parking lot)

In Connecticut it seems like tag sales are a thing of the unless you're 
looking for kids stuff.  "Tools" usually means a couple of screwdrivers 
and worn out battery powered tools. Same with Flea markets although 
there is an occasional good find.  I've got a lot of stuff to sell and 
I'll probably start doing an FS list in the next few months.  My son 
turned out be a pretty good cabinet maker (working in Greater Boston) 
although he uses mostly tailed apprentices. The other thing is YouTube - 
videos on just about any subject that you want to try (and some you don't).


Paul Honore
Hebron  CT
262898 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
What a heartwarming display.
    Oh Galoots, thank you

   I am not sure we aren't doing exactly what we are supposed to so.
We have become the old men of respect. In a world of slam bam hollow, 
they still watch us.
As long as we stick together, we influence the broader community like 
none else.

  The rise of U-tube videos and social mass marketing has all the 
younger guys enthralled.
Instant easy access.  Its not always easy to watch the masses following 
blindly, and not knowing anything about who we are.
But even the young guys know it all comes from somewhere. The support 
structure underneath.
  We're still here, and as long as we're still here, we'll be relevant.

  I have nothing against facebook. I doubt I would have anything against 
instagram, if I knew what it was. I would be all for any Galoot 
extension effort anyone wanted to help us into a public direction.

    I have always known its better to be outright public than to try to 
hide out (which never works very well anyway).  My number is in the 
book, and everyone knows my address.
I still use my address as my sigline on every piece of email I write.
  Better, safer, to walk up main street in broad daylight.

    But other places will never compare to our easy old porch. Wherever 
I ever go, I will always come back here while I still have breath.
      yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
262900 "Brent Parkin" <brent@e...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
Paul mentioned having the old video of Galoot shop tours...

Snip...

Many memories from the past - staying up late on a Sunday nite to get first 
shot at the FMM guys who posted after midnight; the "meet" at the Shaker 
Village in Hancock Mass where Roy Underhill was doing demos, the Gunter 
shave, the video of Galoot shops (still have it and can probably make 
copies if anyone is interested)

That was the old Galootavision video!!  I still have my VHS tape.  I used to
watch it a couple of times a year until I no longer had a functioning VHS
machine.  I think that would be cool to push up to YouTube if possible.  It
was a real interesting video.  Plus if anyone really wanted a copy, they
could extract it off Youtube.  Paul if you could do that, it would be
awesome!

Regards,

Brent Parkin
Regina, SK
Canada eh!
262901 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
My Oldtools friends,

I have already digitized a copy of said video, but I have yet to put it on
youtube.

Just keeping with the galoot tradition of delayed project completion.

Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
262905 Tom Ellis 2017‑08‑15 Re: Concern for the list
Hi Phil,

I probably speak for many in saying that reading about your exploits up north
has been part of my long history on the list, and made it richer.  And you
somehow make your writing about not writing fun to read as well.

Tom Ellis…a happy user of Koontz holdfasts  in much warmer Georgia

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Phil Koontz
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2017 2:58 PM
To: Old Tools List
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Concern for the list

HI all--

Long ago, there was a quip that still means a lot to me about the OT list.
 "If you want content, write content."  The point, in case that's not
obvious, is that we're all responsible for what's on the list.  It's a
small point, but it prompts me to write.  Hope I still have something to
say.


So, in conclusion (I always am glad to hear that phrase in a long
speech)--The OT list has been part of my personal history for about 20
years.  From newbie, to the acquisition phase, then the toolmaking thing,
home building and log work, and recently into mostly-retirement, I feel
like you guys have been friends and co-conspirators.  The list is changing,
of course.  We all are.

PK
Home on the Yukon.
262951 Jim Cook <jim-cook@c...> 2017‑08‑16 Re: Concern for the list
I managed to hook on to this list at close to the very beginning in 1995.  I
tend to lurk, because for all the opinions and knowledge I may have, I’ve always
found someone else has better knowledge and has described things more
eloquently.

Aside from the tool knowledge which has always been wonderful, the best reasons
for me to stick around have been Politics and Religion.  This group has been a
constant haven, free from that which can divide us.  Regardless of our religion
or politics, we have always remained focused on what brings us together.

For that I thank all of you and I hope we can continue for at least a few more
decades.

Jim Cook
262998 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2017‑08‑18 Re: Concern for the list
On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 2:14 PM Jim Cook wrote:

>
>  This group has been a constant haven, free from that which can divide
> us.  Regardless of our religion or politics, we have always remained
> focused on what brings us together.


I think that Jim makes a very important point here. I use Facebook a lot
and it is very political these days. The Porch is a haven from day to day
reality. Like many others, I have less time than I used to because of kids,
work, divorce, getting remarried, family tragedy, life, etc. But this group
has always been here for me and I have made some great lifelong friends
here.

And our quaint format is part of the charm for me. Moving to another
platform would be like a wrench brace or some other crazy patented tool.
Might seem like a good idea, but do we really need it?

And now that my life seems to be slightly less crazy than it has been for
the last decade, I just might be able to clean and organize my shop and
have something to contribute again, hopefully involving the stack of rived
white oak I have sitting in the shady corner of my yard.

Brian Welch
Holden, MA

Ps--hi Jim!  Haven't seen you at LFOD in a while.

Recent Search Bios FAQ