OldTools Archive
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262378 | Christopher Dunn <christopherdunn123@g...> | 2017‑06‑01 | Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Galoots I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade before, but there's got to a better way. So what's the better way? The smart thing to do is to put a back bevel on the iron and call it a day (like the last guy who owned the plane), but I now consider this a challenge and want it the back flat. Would a belt sander work? Or would it round over the back of the iron? Or would it destroy the temper of my iron in 4.7 nano-seconds? I'll keep dipping it in water. Thank you for your responses in advance, Chris |
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262380 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2017‑06‑01 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Christopher Dunn wrote: > Galoots > > I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered > iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond > stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat > (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade > before, but there's got to a better way. Given that the progress pattern when flattening is one of slowing down (the small high spots are dealt with quite quickly), you're not even close to halfway through. You need faster, coarser abrasive; I suggest cloth backed ALZI at around 40-60 grit, backed by something flattish and stiff. Use moderate pressure to avoid stripping the grains from the backing. With such a wide blade, you also have an issue with potential convexity introduced by the flattening process, so watch out for that. BugBear |
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262382 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2017‑06‑01 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Christopher Dunn < christopherdunn123@g...> wrote: > I bought a huge wooden panel raiser plane with a 4-1/4" wide tapered > iron, and started flattening the back of the iron on my coarse diamond > stone. Five hours later, and only about half the cutting edge is flat > (the two corners are low). I've never dealt with such a wide blade > before, but there's got to a better way. > > So what's the better way? > I am with Bugbear on this one, AlZi paper is a wonderful thing. I bought a 50' remnant once, and have it glued down to my Scary Sharp setup for really gross things. It works better than my power sharpener with 100 grit, as that wears too quickly. I have 18+ inches glued down, and go sideways with the usable part of the blade. (It should be closer to the edge of the glass for better performance.) Super magnets on a stick work great for holding the blade flat without sanding your fingers when its away from the edge like this. https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop-Stuff/i-JHGpCkk I am doing a ~2" spokeshave blade right now that had the reverse of yours, low in the center. By taking an angle, I minimized the blade material loss. Unfortunately, someone I am pushing down the slope is using my SS system, so the power grinder is taking a beating. Left most Spokeshave here https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-drD5KTp -- Kirk Eppler in HMB, CA |
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262384 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
I wonder when the thing about flattening the backs of plane blades and chisels arose? Is it really necessary? does it make a bog difference? I've never flattened mine. I'm pretty sure the old masters didn't do it, but I've never met one so I wouldn't have been able to ask. Thing is if they did it, then it'd already have been done. Belt sanders can't produce a very flat surface. I gotta say, pushing 4.25" of steel plane blade across anything sounds like work. |
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262386 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
On 2017-06-01 6:31 PM, Cliff wrote: > > I gotta say, pushing 4.25" of steel plane blade across anything > sounds like work. Too much work. Been there etc. With chisels, it makes sense to get a flat back because the back of the chisel helps guide the edge. it's the only help you get with a chisel, unless you use a jig of some sort. Think workmanship of risk. But with a plane blade, the edge is guided by the bottom of the plane; it just needs to be sharp and stay that way. The back bevel is your friend here, because it saves you work AND steel, and the blade stays sharp longer, so you get more done between sharpening sessions. As well, every micron you take off the back reduces the mass of the blade, reduces its stiffness, and thins the precious steel: that can't be good. FWIW Don -- The harder they come, the bigger they fall - Ry Cooder |
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262387 | bridger <bridger@b...> | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
With chipbreakers, it matters. Single irons, not so much. |
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262388 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse. On May 31, 2017 7:33 PM, "Christopher Dunn" |
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262389 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Kirk Eppler wrote: > BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively > giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse. While we're on: I understand that a back bevel, either large, "ruler tricked" or even smaller can avoid the need to flatten ALONG the whole length of a plane blade. But how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS the blade? BugBear |
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262390 | bridger <bridger@b...> | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
A slightly *convex* stone |
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262391 | yorkshireman@y... | 2017‑06‑02 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Chris is worrying about being stupid… stupid would be not asking the question though. Some interesting answers However, my first thought was ‘why would I do that? a four inch blade would be amazingly hard to use. It’s a panel raiser - so the idea is to leave a ‘perfect’ finish on the panel - evidently for the highest class of work. So, like our highly tuned final smoothers (we all Do have a 4 or 4 1/2 or YBI tuned to a half a gnats a*ss don’t we?) it would only have to make a couple of passes to follow the smoothers. Maybe that wide blade is usable after all. Back to the question then. We’ve modified is slightly, in that we now want it to take a full width, gossamer shaving. The requirement for this is that the edge is a straight line, no camber, and the the two edges are polished, to make the meeting edge as fine as a molecule (ha!) Having a flat back isn’t so much a need as having a polished back. If we were to polish the back, in order to get that sharp edge to maybe a single atom, whilst it isn’t perfectly flat, we can still achieve the miracle edge of gnatarsness. You undoubtedly need a jig, and scary sharp is probably the best bet, because you can easily change grit, and continue down to, say, 2500 before moving on to a lapping plate and sub micron diamond dust. For myself, I’ve already declared myself in the ‘sharp as needed’ corner, so I’d just just run over the scary sharp or equivalent regime, and give the back a good rub down on something each time I resharpened. You get there in the end. Alternatively of course, a jig and a surface grinder, maybe even just the side of a wheel, taken carefully, if it really matters. Or, of course, follow the regime of the previous owner, and add in a bit of back flattening each time you sharpen. It’s really all down to your personal preference. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot, in a fine sunny northumberland and for Jeff. 4 - standard size smoother 4 1/2 - a bit wider standard smoother YBI - Yuppie bastard infill - all manner of ridiculously expensive hand made / cast / exotic versions of a standard smoother which can produce the same finish as a well tuned 4 gnats ass - a very very very tiny linear measurement, slightly more than the thickness of a shaving from a well tuned 4 |
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262392 | Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> | 2017‑06‑03 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Hi A small back bevel, all that is needed, of a degree or two makes little difference to the cutting geometry. However, to put a small back bevel on the iron you really need to jig the process. On my sharpening pages I have a section on flattening the back and why it is a waste of time. A couple of notes: 1 diamond abrasives on steel - iron has an affinity for carbon with the result that a chemical reaction (not a physical breaking, a chemical removal) dissolves the diamonds. diamonds work well on most everything but ferrous metals. 2 coarse abrasives shatter the crystal structure of the hardened iron well below the base of the scratches. using 40 grit on the back will mean you have less durable steel on the working edge until you sharpen past the flattened section of the blade. 3 a small microbevel on the back, created with sub 6 micron abrasives will not shatter the crystal structure of the steel and will give you a durable edge that is flat on both sides. 4 flattening once does nothing to remove the wear bevel created on the back face during use. Lee Valley giving you a very flat back lulls you into having half sharp plane irons forever. to have a plane iron with an edge that is flat on both faces you have to work both faces every time you hone. if done correctly this can add up to 1 minute to honing time Sharpening well with the best abrasives is faster, lasts longer and simplifies tool mastery. However, you needn't worry. People have been doing good work with dullish edges since tools were invented. On 2017-06-02 08:55, Kirk Eppler wrote: > BTW, putting a back bevel on changes the cutting geometry, effectively > giving you a high angle plane. Can be a benefit, can be a curse. > > On May 31, 2017 7:33 PM, "Christopher Dunn" |
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262393 | Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> | 2017‑06‑03 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Hi On 2017-06-02 09:09, paul womack wrote: > But how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a > freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS > the blade? Why is there a burr? I'll answer that. Because the grinding process with a coarse abrasive has shattered the crystal structure of the steel, allowing the burr to form. Why do you use a coarse abrasive on the edge? I'll answer that. Because that is the only way you can grind past the wear bevel on the back face if you only work from the front face. Why don't you hone off the wear bevel on the back face (and the front face, for that matter)? I'll answer that. Because you won't use a jig, or the jig you use won't let you hone the back face. Why don't you make and use a jig that will let you hone off the front and back wear bevels? I can't answer that. Brent My comic relief for those spending too much shop time flattening backs and grinding to produce burrs. Please don't be offended. -- Brent Beach Victoria, BC, Canada |
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262394 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑06‑03 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
On 6/2/2017 1:14 PM, bridger wrote: > ut how (the heck) can you remove the burr from a > freshly sharpened blade if the edge isn't flat/straight ACROSS > the blade? Leather strop? |
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262395 | bridger <bridger@b...> | 2017‑06‑03 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Strop works great for the burr from finer stones. especially if it has a bit of polishing compound on it. Coarse stone burrs need a fine stone to get them off. I have a small (~1" x 2" x 1/4") translucent white arkansas stone that would probably do the job. Sometimes I get a ceramic rod into play on contoured edges for that sort of thing. |
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263282 | "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Friends and Galoots: Following the lead of a few of you from back in June, I have been looking for AlZi paper for sharpening. Simply no luck. Is it sold under a different name? How does one find some to buy? Joe Joseph Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Kirk Eppler Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 5:15 PM To: Christopher Dunn |
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263287 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑09‑10 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Klingspor ( interalia) |
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263292 | gary may | 2017‑09‑11 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
Klingspor is where the hobby hounds shop--- bottomfeeders see: http://www.supergrit.com/products /products_rolldrumsleeve-psa ">http://www.supergrit.com/products /products_rolldrumsleeve-psa my 2c---gam in OlyWA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen From: Cliff |
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263294 | Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> | 2017‑09‑11 | Re: Am I on the road to stupidville? |
On 9/10/2017 8:58 PM, gary may wrote: > How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a > blessing one cares for none of them! > Jane Austen > I was thinking of that quote just today. |
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