Galoots Assembled,

My youngest darling daughter has commissioned (commanded) me to make a front
entrance gate for their newly fenced front yard.  To communicate her desires for
design, she indicated I should study the gates offered at http://www.pr
owellwoodworks.com/gate/index.htm">http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/index.ht
m  I've rootled around this website--excellent sharing of information, I
might add--to gather information about types of wood to use/not use for a gate,
and types of joinery, hardware, etc.

Here is where I am right now.  The gate opening is 51 inches wide, and the gate
should be no more than 48 inches at the tallest point.    Here is the
"inspiration" for the gate my daughter (picky client) has picked:  www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/garden_gates_96b.jpg">http://www.prowellwoodwor
ks.com/gate/garden_gates_96b.jpg   The gate will be western cedar, as
pictured.

Here are my questions:
1.  I'm planning on using 1 1/2 inch thick lumber, though I could also go as
thick as 2 or 2 1/4 inch thick stuff.  Is 1 1/2 inch stout enough if the bottom
rail is 7 inches wide, the middle and top rails 4 inches, and the sides 5 inches
wide?  Do these dimensions seem sufficient to keep the gate stiff and prevent
sagging over time?
2.  I was planning on using basic hand cut blind mortise and tenon joinery for
the gate frame.  Should I also plan to use a drawbore pin at each joint?  Is
this the best joinery option for a relative wide exterior gate?
3.  What else am I not considering that I should be? 

Your help will be appreciated greatly.

Cheers,
John

John M. Johnston
jmjhnstn@m...
"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

The last gate I made had a diagonal to stop sag, but all the joints where pegged
with seasoned oak pegs, try getting them out once they expand!
I would wedge and/or drawbore all the frame and use PU glue just to be sure.
I can't see any pegs in the picture but they could be on the other side.
I would go thicker than 1 1/2 its not thickness for a wide gate and you can
haver thicker tenons.
Looks a nice project.

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)
Sent: 18 May 2017 14:42
To: oldtools 
Subject: [OldTools] Garden Gate - help needed please!

Galoots Assembled,

My youngest darling daughter has commissioned (commanded) me to make a front
entrance gate for their newly fenced front yard.  To communicate her desires for
design, she indicated I should study the gates offered at https://emea0
1.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodworks.com%2F
gate%2Findex.htm&data=01%7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb00
8d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8ed42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=Y7Q%2BcEjSqMU8tES%2FxOl
j6ZXx%2Fa9D1ySLaGhl2AJ3v1E%3D&reserved=0">https://emea01.safelinks.protection.ou
tlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodworks.com%2Fgate%2Findex.htm&data=01%
7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb008d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8e
d42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=Y7Q%2BcEjSqMU8tES%2FxOlj6ZXx%2Fa9D1ySLaGhl2AJ3v1
E%3D&reserved=0  I've rootled around this website--excellent sharing of
information, I might add--to gather information about types of wood to use/not
use for a gate, and types of joinery, hardware, etc.

Here is where I am right now.  The gate opening is 51 inches wide, and the gate
should be no more than 48 inches at the tallest point.    Here is the
"inspiration" for the gate my daughter (picky client) has picked:  emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodwor
ks.com%2Fgate%2Fgarden_gates_96b.jpg&data=01%7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce
2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb008d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8ed42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=zUf
icd6GpXWaTx2E9r9dWMRM9d4KTSNY4fFLEt0XOts%3D&reserved=0">https://emea01.safelinks
.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodworks.com%2Fgate%2Fgard
en_gates_96b.jpg&data=01%7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb00
8d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8ed42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=zUficd6GpXWaTx2E9r9dWMR
M9d4KTSNY4fFLEt0XOts%3D&reserved=0   The gate will be western cedar, as
pictured.

Here are my questions:
1.  I'm planning on using 1 1/2 inch thick lumber, though I could also go as
thick as 2 or 2 1/4 inch thick stuff.  Is 1 1/2 inch stout enough if the bottom
rail is 7 inches wide, the middle and top rails 4 inches, and the sides 5 inches
wide?  Do these dimensions seem sufficient to keep the gate stiff and prevent
sagging over time?
2.  I was planning on using basic hand cut blind mortise and tenon joinery for
the gate frame.  Should I also plan to use a drawbore pin at each joint?  Is
this the best joinery option for a relative wide exterior gate?
3.  What else am I not considering that I should be?

Your help will be appreciated greatly.

Cheers,
John

John M. Johnston
jmjhnstn@m...
"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

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On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 6:42 AM, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) <
jmjhnstn@m...> wrote:

>
>
> Here are my questions:
> 1.  I'm planning on using 1 1/2 inch thick lumber, though I could also go
> as thick as 2 or 2 1/4 inch thick stuff.  Is 1 1/2 inch stout enough if the
> bottom rail is 7 inches wide, the middle and top rails 4 inches, and the
> sides 5 inches wide?  Do these dimensions seem sufficient to keep the gate
> stiff and prevent sagging over time?
> 2.  I was planning on using basic hand cut blind mortise and tenon joinery
> for the gate frame.  Should I also plan to use a drawbore pin at each
> joint?  Is this the best joinery option for a relative wide exterior gate?
> 3.  What else am I not considering that I should be?
>
>
1 - I would worry more about the posts moving under the weight of the gate
if you go too thick.  That will be a beastly heavy (though very pretty)
gate at those dimensions

2 - I would think big M&T, plus pairs of pins at each joint would help with
the sagging. With no diagonal bracing, there will be stresses there.



-- 
Kirk Eppler, back in Half Moon Bay, CA, who has built an ugly gate or two,
and fixed many more.

Can’t help with the style, but my experience—do all finishing and assembling
before installing.  Many gates rot out
Where the wood meets the dirt.

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

John-

I built this dutch door from 2X6 western red cedar with drawbored M&T
joints.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtfrl8e4cw0avn6/Door.jpg?dl=0

Some of the drawbore pins can be seen.  It's held up well with no sag.  Not
readily apparent from the picture is that the joint is a double M&T like
this-

https://www.woodworkingarchive.biz/machine-cut-joint/images/1369_55_264
-double-mortise-and-tenon.jpg">https://www.woodworkingarchive.biz/machine-cut-
joint/images/1369_55_264-double-mortise-and-tenon.jpg

to avoid wide and more unstable mortise cheeks.

Phil

I would go with thicker material. If is not so much that the stile opposite the
hinge will sag vertically as it is that an unfastened opposite top corner may
sag away from the post with a thin gate. By the way, positioning the catch near
the top will mitigate this.

YMMV, void where prohibited by law (a silly American legal statement, Jeff),

Gary K
Albion NY, USA

---- "Maddex wrote: 

=============
The last gate I made had a diagonal to stop sag, but all the joints where pegged
with seasoned oak pegs, try getting them out once they expand!
I would wedge and/or drawbore all the frame and use PU glue just to be sure.
I can't see any pegs in the picture but they could be on the other side.
I would go thicker than 1 1/2 its not thickness for a wide gate and you can
haver thicker tenons.
Looks a nice project.

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)
Sent: 18 May 2017 14:42
To: oldtools 
Subject: [OldTools] Garden Gate - help needed please!

Galoots Assembled,

My youngest darling daughter has commissioned (commanded) me to make a front
entrance gate for their newly fenced front yard.  To communicate her desires for
design, she indicated I should study the gates offered at https://emea0
1.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodworks.com%2F
gate%2Findex.htm&data=01%7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb00
8d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8ed42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=Y7Q%2BcEjSqMU8tES%2FxOl
j6ZXx%2Fa9D1ySLaGhl2AJ3v1E%3D&reserved=0">https://emea01.safelinks.protection.ou
tlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodworks.com%2Fgate%2Findex.htm&data=01%
7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb008d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8e
d42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=Y7Q%2BcEjSqMU8tES%2FxOlj6ZXx%2Fa9D1ySLaGhl2AJ3v1
E%3D&reserved=0  I've rootled around this website--excellent sharing of
information, I might add--to gather information about types of wood to use/not
use for a gate, and types of joinery, hardware, etc.

Here is where I am right now.  The gate opening is 51 inches wide, and the gate
should be no more than 48 inches at the tallest point.    Here is the
"inspiration" for the gate my daughter (picky client) has picked:  emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodwor
ks.com%2Fgate%2Fgarden_gates_96b.jpg&data=01%7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce
2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb008d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8ed42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=zUf
icd6GpXWaTx2E9r9dWMRM9d4KTSNY4fFLEt0XOts%3D&reserved=0">https://emea01.safelinks
.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prowellwoodworks.com%2Fgate%2Fgard
en_gates_96b.jpg&data=01%7C01%7Cpeter.maddex%40ntu.ac.uk%7Ce2a4c4ec6b2a457bafb00
8d49df3c7d1%7C8acbc2c5c8ed42c78169ba438a0dbe2f%7C1&sdata=zUficd6GpXWaTx2E9r9dWMR
M9d4KTSNY4fFLEt0XOts%3D&reserved=0   The gate will be western cedar, as
pictured.

Here are my questions:
1.  I'm planning on using 1 1/2 inch thick lumber, though I could also go as
thick as 2 or 2 1/4 inch thick stuff.  Is 1 1/2 inch stout enough if the bottom
rail is 7 inches wide, the middle and top rails 4 inches, and the sides 5 inches
wide?  Do these dimensions seem sufficient to keep the gate stiff and prevent
sagging over time?
2.  I was planning on using basic hand cut blind mortise and tenon joinery for
the gate frame.  Should I also plan to use a drawbore pin at each joint?  Is
this the best joinery option for a relative wide exterior gate?
3.  What else am I not considering that I should be?

Your help will be appreciated greatly.

Cheers,
John

John M. Johnston
jmjhnstn@m...
"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
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OldTools@s...

John wants to build an outdoor garden gate for his daughter.
http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/garden_gates_96b.jpg

I agree with the others, thicker and pegged.  Use the thinner material at the
muntins and mullions--the window portion at the top--and again at the slats in
the bottom to give the relief and shadow lines you want.

Note that the rails are morticed into the stiles, that way there is not a
horizontal opening for water to migrate into the main frame.  (I guess rails are
almost always morticed into the stiles now that I think about it...)

And teach them about yearly maintenance on wooden out door structures so it
lasts a good long while. I can't wait to see the pictures, it will be a
beautiful gate and they will remember you each time they use it.

Brent


Sent from my iPad

I have to disagree with toolerati.  I think the thinner material will be just
fine structurally, and be lighter and put less strain on the whole thing.  The
only reason to go thicker would be if the aesthetics demand it.  And they may.

Ed Minch

Interestingly, the Prowell site uses 1  1/2" for gates up to 60" wide, and 2
1/4" for wider gates.

J ~

“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

On May 18, 2017, at 3:25 PM, Ed Minch mailto:ruby1638@a...">mailto:ruby1638@a...>> wrote:

I have to disagree with toolerati.  I think the thinner material will be just
fine structurally, and be lighter and put less strain on the whole thing.  The
only reason to go thicker would be if the aesthetics demand it.  And they may.

Ed Minch




On May 18, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Brent A Kinsey mailto:brentpmed@c...">mailto:brentpmed@c...>> wrote:

John wants to build an outdoor garden gate for his daughter.
http://www.prowellwoodworks.com/gate/garden_gates_96b.jpg

I agree with the others, thicker and pegged.  Use the thinner material at the
muntins and mullions--the window portion at the top--and again at the slats in
the bottom to give the relief and shadow lines you want.

Note that the rails are morticed into the stiles, that way there is not a
horizontal opening for water to migrate into the main frame.  (I guess rails are
almost always morticed into the stiles now that I think about it...)

And teach them about yearly maintenance on wooden out door structures so it
lasts a good long while. I can't wait to see the pictures, it will be a
beautiful gate and they will remember you each time they use it.

Brent


Sent from my iPad


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OldTools@s...

You beat me to it. I just finished plowing thru the Prowell site and was about
to reinforce Ed’s comment. In addition, the comment to use a double tenon is a
sound one. Finally, looking thru the site I would say you are lucky your
daughter chose this one as there are a lot there that would be REALLY tough to
tackle!

Bill