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261256 Thomas Conroy 2017‑01‑13 Angle of skew chisels
O Galoots:
This one rambles a bit before it gets to the poin, but with patience we can get
aroound all four bases.

When we went fleaBAGging in December, Bill Kasper gave me a couple of little
handleless chisels he had picked up to me. One is a 1/4" Dunlap, not a stellar
brand, with about 3" of blade, but in good condition----back reasonably flat,
discoloratin but no corrosion. I put it to the back of my mind and cooed over
the other one, a bevel-edged socket Ward's Master Quality 3/4" wide whose only
drawback is that I already have quite a number of 3/4" chisels. Then Bill Ghio
sent me, unsolicited, a dead pretty little Buck Cast Steel 5/8" of about the
same length (3-1/2" blade) with a short, comfy handle and a note that "I was
given this chisel several years ago by another Galoot. I liked its small size so
much that I decided to make up a set of butt chisels for the bench. Over time
that grew into a complete set of short PEXTO chisels and this one became
redundant. However, I have felt that since it was gifted to me I could not sell
it. Today while wrapping my Galootaclaus gift I noticed it and it occurred to me
that you would appreciate this little guy<" I do indeed; I love small chisels.
Thanks, Bill, I am looking forward to this doing its business again, and forming
the nucleus of s set of 3-1/2" bevel-edged butt socket chisels. If it turns out
to be a set of uniform Ward Master Quality, then I will pass your Buck along to
yet another galoot. And in the meantime I have it sharp and ready to use on my
desk, sitting next to the Ward from Bill Kasper. I keep wondering if I will end
up with a whole set of chisels obtained from guys named Bill.
I'm joking, but what I mostly feel is joy at having good friends.
So, back to the other chisel Bill Kasper gave me, a non-stellar Dunlap BE
socket. After a month or so it occurred to me that it is just about a match for
another I have, a Fulton (another non-stellar brand), one of my first chisels
and long since relegated to the "second or third set" box. I bought this one
before I grew snobbish about chisel brands and it gave good service for years,
but was replaced in my bench rack by a longer, more elegant Swedish chisel. With
two fairly close in shape and quality, I have a potential pair of 1/4" skew
dovetailing chisels.
Twenty-five or thirty years ago I ground a couple of nice 3/4" chisels into a
skew set, and have never found a use for them. I don't think I have used them
even once. Then, maybe ten years ago, a big box of cast-offs burped up a couple
of cast steel tang chisels worn down to 2-1/2" of blade, and I ground them skew
and put them in matching ebony London Octagonal handles. Around the same time I
read that skew could be used for cleaning out dovetails, and experiment showed
me that this waas indeed a good use for them.  However, for the size dovetails I
was doing (in boards under 1/2" thick) even a 3/8" chisel seemed too large and
heavy; so I've been looking for a couple of quarter-inchers to regrind. I was
imagining another pair of thin tang chisels worn short, but with the Fulton and
Dunlap falling into my lap....
So I'm regrinding my non-stellar pair. They are, as 1/4' chisels often are,
grossly thick, as thick as they are wide near the socket, so to get them thin
enough for a dovetailing pair I will have to grind off at least half the
thickness in the inch or two nearest the edge. I've taken the Fulton down to
1/8" at an inch from the edge, and 1/16" a quarter inch from the edge. This
completely removes the bevel-edging in the ground areas; I haven't yet decided
whether to re-bevel the edges. I would hesitate a long time before doing this
much surgery on a name chisel, or even one marked "cast steel" and nothing else,
but hey, it's a Dunlap and a Fulton--- no great worry if the regrinding proves a
frost.

And we get to the point of this email. I'm almost ready to grind the skew on the
front. And I need to decide what angle is best for small dovetails. Opinions
seem to differ on this. Anyone care to give an opinion about what angle is right
for a dovetailing skew? Lie-Nielsen does a very mild 20 degree skew. Most makers
seem to favor a more pronounced skew; some seem to go all the way to a 45 degree
skew. I'd probably go for a pretty pronounced skew, maybe 30-35 degrees (my
first set was around 40 degrees, and y second around 25). But I'd like to hear
what other galoots think is most useful.
Also, I have to decide on ha dle size. I might retain the conventional handle on
the Fulton, and make one similar for the Dunlop. The fulton is 8" overall, with
a handle 3-3/8" long and a blade 2-3/4" long to where the shoulders would be on
a wider chisel. However, I am strongly tempted to give both chisels burin-style
mushroom or palm handles,moving the right hand closer to the edge. Again: Anyone
have opinions or experience on handle length for a dovetailing skew?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Tom Conroy
261257 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2017‑01‑13 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Tom,

My .02 for free here.  I learned to cut half-blind dovetails when taking a class
from Lonnie Bird.  He does not use a skew chisel when cutting these dovetails,
instead he uses a 1/8 inch chisel to accomplish the same purpose of getting into
the corners of the sockets.  His 1/8 inch chisel is a bit different though.  He
had a 1/4 inch chisel that he had ground to 1/8 inch wide for an inch or so up
from the tip.  He said he did this because a 1/8 inch chisel is so narrow that
it tends to roll in the fingers (he holds, and taught us to hold the chisel by
the blade close to the tip using the thumb and first two fingers), whereas a 1/4
inch chisel does not tend to roll but easily stays flat in the hand.  I had an
1/4 inch Two Cherries chisel that I ground in the same fashion and that's what I
use when cutting half-blind dovetails and it works a treat.  I don't own narrow
skew chisels for cutting dovetails as there is no need with this modified tool.

Cheers,
John

John M. Johnston
jmjhnstn@m...
“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.
261258 William Ghio <bghio@m...> 2017‑01‑13 Re: Angle of skew chisels
> On Jan 13, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> O Galoots:
> This one rambles a bit before it gets to the point, but with patience we can
get aroound all four bases.
> {SNIP}
> They are, as 1/4' chisels often are, grossly thick, as thick as they are wide
near the socket, so to get them thin enough for a dovetailing pair I will have
to grind off at least half the thickness in the inch or two nearest the edge.
I've taken the Fulton down to 1/8" at an inch from the edge, and 1/16" a quarter
inch from the edge. This completely removes the bevel-edging in the ground
areas; I haven't yet decided whether to re-bevel the edges. I would hesitate a
long time before doing this much surgery on a name chisel, or even one marked
"cast steel" and nothing else, but hey, it's a Dunlap and a Fulton--- no great
worry if the regrinding proves a frost.
> 
> And we get to the point of this email. I'm almost ready to grind the skew on
the front. And I need to decide what angle is best for small dovetails. Opinions
seem to differ on this. Anyone care to give an opinion about what angle is right
for a dovetailing skew? Lie-Nielsen does a very mild 20 degree skew. Most makers
seem to favor a more pronounced skew; some seem to go all the way to a 45 degree
skew. I'd probably go for a pretty pronounced skew, maybe 30-35 degrees (my
first set was around 40 degrees, and y second around 25). But I'd like to hear
what other galoots think is most useful.
> Also, I have to decide on ha dle size.

I have a pair of no-name skews that are 7/16th wide and ground at 30*. I don’t
use them often but occasionally find them helpful. My fine dovetailing chisel is
a nominally 1/4” Fulton (7/32 actual) that I ground into a triangular cross
section. This one gets a good workout when doing half blind DT’s as it is the
best for reaching into the corners.

Bill
261260 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑01‑13 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Hi Galoots
Well, apparently I needed to write today. I hope its not unpleasant.

  I am really liking where this subject is heading!
  I would appreciate seeing the triangular ground chisels??
And I would like to know if anyone thinks another geometry might work 
even better?

   I am thinking a whole triangular shaped chisel, say 1/2" where it 
meets the socket, and then the whole Maryanne tapered in practically 
every dimension to make, like an angular jointsticker?
Stiletto corner jabber? .... Or something?

What I am saying is that is has been too long since a took a piece of 
innocent steel to the grinder and had at it.
  Breathing grinding dust, can be addictive.
(as long as you watcha you ass, you'll be ok. Just don't get tooooooooo 
greedy lol)

Taking a piece of hardened tool steel, and making it bow to your will, 
is not nothing.
  When its radically changed and you saw it happen? That is something.
Keep yer dunk cups handy Boys! heeheheh

Oh, and if there is a woman in your life, remember to wipe your teeth!

   The worst telltale giveaway sign you have been dabbling in steel? 
Yeah it accumulates on your front teeth. You smile at your sweetie and 
she points and hollers............Little Rascals! @  !
Cause you look like Alfalfa.

  So Conroy, did you really mount ebony handles on 2 1/2" chisels, and 
can I see?  I never had ebony chisel handles.  I love the idea, just not 
enough spare ebony, ever in my life, to make any.
Chisel blades I can get easy, it seems. They must just want to live at 
my house. I have a drawer now.

And yet I still desperately need a 1/4" bevel edged chisel!
  My heart was horribly broken recently.
  So I still need a full length, straight, 1/4" socket chisel. I would 
like the full 6" of blade, or near enough. Most any brand will do.
  If its a 6" blade, plus the socket, chisel............. and its still 
straight? It had to have been something in the first place. Nobody ever 
made a bad 6" blade chisel is my point. Not that I ever saw anyway.

  My heart is broken, because I found an actual Baker and Hamilton, San 
Francisco chisel last year.
A full length 1/4" socket chisel.  I bought a small lot of homeless 
chisels just to get it.
   But it was bent. And badly.  And all my best tricks failed. I get to 
save 3 out of 4, but there is still a 25% failure rate at straightening 
old chisels. And the poor little B&H just exploded before my eyes. Along 
with my nervous system and then my heart, one split second later. 
Booooooooooooooo

   Baker was an early wheeler dealer of near Gold Rush California. He 
was partners on the first glassmaking enterprise (Baker and Cutting) and 
then got involved in the first try at building a big hardware firm. 
Baker and Hamilton.

   The glass was a miserable failure, btw. B&C glass is poorly annealed 
and it explodes at a touch.
Its killer beautiful, if you ever find a piece of it.  Early, crude, 
brilliantly colored, loaded with bubbles. Rare........ Everything a 
bottle collector could ever want.
Just don't handle it much.  lol

But Baker and Hamilton was a different story and the hardware business 
was solid for many years.
Stiletto tools was Baker and Hamilton's house brand. They seemed to have 
ordered quality goods, as every Stiletto marked tool I ever had was good 
stuff.

  Oh btw, some of the early Fulton's were pretty damn good. Sears went 
from one maker to another over the years, always looking for a cheaper 
price.
(and we have the nerve to complain about quality?)
          But occasionally, they were forced to buy quality merchandise.
  Some of the Fulton were good...... Most were not, but some of them.

  By the time they got to Dunlap though, it was pretty much construction 
tools from there on out. Sears went to mostly the construction market. 
Can't blame them.
  100 carpenters for every joiner/cabinetmaker. Follow the money.
    yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
261261 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑01‑13 Re: Angle of skew chisels
I made a pair from random 1/2" bevel edge socket chisels and I made the angle
45°.  It is very easy to use the entire edge of the chisel to cut into the side
of a tail or pin by pushing on the side of the blade. One has an original handle
that was short, and one I made out of Osage Orange a little longer and they are
about right

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/32169097121/in/dateposted-public/


Ed Minch
261263 William Ghio <bghio@m...> 2017‑01‑13 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Scott asked for pictures.

Here is the business end of my 1/4 inch re-ground chisel —

https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../31914060980/in/dateposted-public/

In that shot it is next to my full length Witherby. Here you can see them in
their glorious length —

https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../32251758556/in/dateposted-public/

Bill
261268 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
I hear some say that they use a 1/8” chisel to clear the corners of dovetail
sockets. What this tells me is that they do not make drawers with fine (“London”
style) dovetails.

Such as these …

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TopOfTheWorldToYou_html_m233f38e0.jpg

or these …

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails_html_47
d0c311.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails_html
_47d0c311.jpg

Sawing and chiseling fine pins does not leave any room for error ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Londonhalf-
blinddovetaileddrawer_html_m6296be34.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture
/Londonhalf-blinddovetaileddrawer_html_m6296be34.jpg

Some prefer skew chisels. I find that these need a shallow angle (20 degrees),
otherwise you are forced to skew the chisel to slice a cut. Much better - my
preference - is a fishtail chisel. These just need to be pushed into the corner.
So much cleaner and less damage than a 1/8” chisel! :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheLastDovetail_html_m3cc2ab80.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek
261269 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
derek

If there is no room for error, I tend to back off a little because I will make
that error.  These are not quite as tiny, but close, and I did them with an 1/8”
chisel.  They are 2,  3 foot hidden side drawers in a 7 foot long table:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/32304195315/in/dateposted-public/

Ed Minch
261270 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Ed, those are very nice dovetails.

What is your technique in using a 1/8” chisel? 

And, seriously, after using a fishtail chisel you will wonder why you did not do
so before! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek
261271 "Linda & Tom Hall" <l-thall@c...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of Skew Chisels
I bought a set of Japanese chisels about 30 years ago from Garrett Wade for
making dovetails
and have never used them, time fly's.
There two crank necks, 6mm and 28mm, matching right & left skew chisels at 6mm
and 28mm.
The angle of the skew looks to be a little under 35 degrees, quiet pointed.
They look to be ground for making dovetails also the crank necks look like what
you see in ad’s
today.  I haven’t seen ad’s for the Japanese skew chisels.
Recently I contacted Garrett Wade and Product Specialist Joe Wolfe got back to
me that he
believes they were made by Iyorol.
I would love to get them into users hands, I’m quite embarrass they have just
sat there all these
years.  Is there anyone out there that uses Japanese chisels that would be
interested in buying
or trading other tools.  Contact me of list l-thall@c... for pic’s.

But to Tom Conroy request the skew is about 33 degrees.

Tommy Hall
Amesbury, MA
261272 "Joseph Sullivan" <joe@j...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
SNIP

ED:  If there is no room for error, I tend to back off a little because I
will make that error.  These are not quite as tiny, but close, and I did
them with an 1/8" chisel.  They are 2,  3 foot hidden side drawers in a 7
foot long table:


DEREK:  Ed, those are very nice dovetails.

What is your technique in using a 1/8" chisel? 

And, seriously, after using a fishtail chisel you will wonder why you did
not do so before! :)


END SNIP

Beautiful work by both of you, and interested to learn of fishtail chisels.
I knew they existed but never thought why.

Agree with Ed, though.  If there is an error to be made, I make that error,
so there had better be room for it. Of course, at this point my skills are
not at a par with either of you.  Today I am putting the third coat of
shellac on a cradle designed and made by me of wood I cut on family
property.  I'll do four coats wet-sanded and then a top coat of Behlens Rock
Hard to make it diaper proof.

Here's the thing, though: I have spent more time correcting mistakes than I
have building and finishing.  Of course, except for the cradle floor, the
cradle and stand are ENTIRELY curvilinear so once cut reference to true is
largely lost unless the maker had the foresight to mark everything
necessarily carefully  and indelibly in the square.  This maker lacked that
foresight, so it has been an exercise for the eye.  Right now, in
mid-finishing stage, small issues are still coming to light -- visual, not
structural.  Some I can correct, others must simply stay.

My son and daughter in law for whom this is intended are both architects,
with, therefore, trained eyes.  I will have to ask them to be forgiving as
although it is imperfect, I have done my best.

Joe
261274 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Derek, mostly I've used a 1/8 inch reground from a 1/4 inch to deal with the
inevitable shmutz in the corners of dovetail sockets.  In addition to large case
pieces with large pins and sockets, here is a piece I did several years ago
using that modified 1/8 inch chisel.

http://galootcentral.com/component/option,com_copperminevis/Itemid,2/pl
ace,displayimage/album,lastup/cat,0/pos,0/">http://galootcentral.com/component/o
ption,com_copperminevis/Itemid,2/place,displayimage/album,lastup/cat,0/pos,0/

Apart from that, I'm looking at four drawers for a Pennsylvania slant-front desk
in the immediate future so I am very interested in knowing more about your
particular fishtail chisel, where you obtained it, and any particular further
observations based on your experiences using it.

Thank you.
John

John M. Johnston
jmjhnstn@m...
"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

-----Original Message-----
Some prefer skew chisels. I find that these need a shallow angle (20 degrees),
otherwise you are forced to skew the chisel to slice a cut. Much better - my
preference - is a fishtail chisel. These just need to be pushed into the corner.
So much cleaner and less damage than a 1/8" chisel! :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheLastDovetail_html_m3cc2ab80.jpg
261276 Thomas Conroy 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Scott wrote: " So Conroy, did you really mount ebony handles on 2 1/2" chisels,
and
can I see?  I never had ebony chisel handles.  I love the idea, just not 
enough spare ebony, ever in my life, to make any.
Chisel blades I can get easy, it seems. They must just want to live at 
my house. I have a drawer now."
I had a little piece, just long enough for the two handles with absolutely no
waste, out of the offcut bin at MacBeath Hardwoods. You can see them here, over
toward the right flanking a rosewood London Octagonal handle on a curved-edge
carver's skew:
https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/150912
-Bagathon-MS/i-FSTZSWF">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-FSTZSWF


Eleven of the seventeen handles you can see in the shot are NOS English boxwood,
brought along to serve as exemplars when I showed my method of making a London
Octagonal handle at BAGathon, but the rest (the ones that don't show clearly)
are mine. A couple more shots from the same event, not much clearer
unfortunately:

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/150912
-Bagathon-MS/i-QDs4LPT">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-QDs4LPT

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/150912
-Bagathon-MS/i-SnxRFv6">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-SnxRFv6


Maybe someone who was at the event has a clearer shot of them.

Thanks to all who replied to my query. Particular thanks to John and Bill, who
have provided me with excuse to regrind two more little chisels and increase my
1/4" dovetailing set to four (#3 narrowed to 1/8" near the tip, and #4 with a
triangular cross-section). Not that any excuse is needed to get more chisels.
Tom Conroy
261277 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Before they came out with those fish chisels I just got a couple of crap 
chisels and ground them at an angle.  Crap chisels are a dime a dozen 
and the rarity of use  ( cleaning corners) lets them shine because the 
demands are so low.
261278 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
I also used a thin knife to get in there and work the corners.  If I had to do a
bunch of them, I think the fishtail or a narrower skew would do it, but since
time was not of the essence, the knife worked well.  And if you opened up my
joints you would not find the precision and beauty that were able to achieve.

Ed Minch
261280 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Joe

It’s not a mistake unless you can’t fix it - and I have found that paint is
wonderful invention.  Last year I built a toy chest for third grandchild -
lovely Georgia.  I made a mini - blanket chest with dovetailed corners, a till,
and two drawers at the bottom, all done with hand tools except the surface
planing.  I finished the corners, then hand-cut the dados for the till, only to
find that I had dadoed the outside of the front rather than the inside of the
front.  The dovetails, of course, did not fit when I flipped the front over, so
they had to be patched up, but my choice between stain/varnish and paint was
made FOR me.

Ed Minch
261282 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
On 1/14/2017 10:36 AM, Thomas Conroy wrote:
>
> I had a little piece, just long enough for the two handles with 
> absolutely no waste, out of the offcut bin at MacBeath Hardwoods. You 
> can see them here, over toward the right flanking a rosewood London 
> Octagonal handle on a curved-edge carver's skew:
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-FSTZSWF">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking
/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-FSTZSWF
>

Are you kiddin? I can see them fine!       And they are just 
attrocious!! wowwie
  I could eat them with a spoon.

If I sent you an offcut, say, just a ......little.... smaller?? hmmmmmmm
  I think I need some ebony handles in the >4" long range..

yours Scott



-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
261288 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
SNIP:   "If there is no room for error, I tend to back off a little
because I will make that error."

About 30 years ago, I took a cooking course in "Naw Leens" and between
beers, the very large chef told me the  FIRST rule of Cookery, "Never name
what ya'll gonna serve, 'till it's plated"
That was part of the origin story of "blackened catfish" (not a 'mistake'-
its actually a 'feature'!)
Cheahs, y'all
Claudio (fondly recalling the Cajuns)
(this is true- apart from never giving an ETA for a project, don't tell
them what it's gonna be until you carry it out the door...)
261291 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
On 2017-01-14 1:36 PM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools wrote:
> Eleven of the seventeen handles you can see in the shot are NOS English
boxwood, brought along to serve as exemplars when I showed my method of making a
London Octagonal handle at BAGathon, but the rest (the ones that don't show
clearly) are mine. A couple more shots from the same event, not much clearer
unfortunately:
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-QDs4LPT">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking
/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-QDs4LPT
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-SnxRFv6">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking
/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/150912-Bagathon-MS/i-SnxRFv6
>
>
> Maybe someone who was at the event has a clearer shot of them.
Is there a video of your demonstration?

Don

-- 
Let's all get normal at the luau - 'Frizz' Fuller
261292 Chuck Taylor 2017‑01‑14 Re: Angle of skew chisels
Derek,

You wrote:

> Some prefer skew chisels. I find that these need a shallow angle (20 degrees),
> otherwise you are forced to skew the chisel to slice a cut. Much better - my 
> preference - is a fishtail chisel. These just need to be pushed into the
corner.
> So much cleaner and less damage than a 1/8” chisel! :)
> 
> http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheLastDovetail_html_m3cc2ab80.jpg


That fishtail chisel looks like just the thing for cleaning out between the
widely-separated pins. What do you use to clean out between the narrowly-
separated tails?

Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
261296 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2017‑01‑15 Re: Angle of skew chisels
'Lo Galoots Assembled,
To return to the matter of a 3/8 inch wide fishtail being too wide for small
work.  Probably the smallest dovetail work I'll ever do is in gallery of little
drawers in a spice box, or in the gallery of a Pennsylvania slant-front desk.
These are also similar in size to small boxes I've made using half-blind
dovetails.  I just measured all of the drawers in the spice box (13 drawers) and
none of them are too narrow to admit a 3/8 inch chisel, either at the base of
the socket or between the narrowest opening of the pins along the face.  Having
never used a fishtail chisel for trimming half-blind dovetails, I could see
using it to trim the inside corners from both directions, registering the chisel
flat on these surfaces and cutting with just the one tip in the corner.  Derek,
do you use your mallet with it, or just hand pressure?

I could see the fishtail chisel as a more precise and less damaging alternative
than a standard 1/8 inch chisel.  I'd like to hear more from Derek about his
fishtail chisel and how he uses in in cutting half-blind pin sockets, and other
woodworking applications.

Cheers,
John

John M. Johnston
jmjhnstn@m...
"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.
261305 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2017‑01‑15 Re: Angle of skew chisels
John asks about making a fishtail chisel, and grinding lands.

John, the reason the fishtail does not appear on my website it is that it was
made more than 10 years ago, which is when I migrated from Wiktor’s fine site
(where I had the honour of being the first contributor) to start my own. There
are some tools that are really so easy to make, and the fishtail is one. As many
here will attest, grinding steel just needs a light touch and a coarse wheel,
and it will not burn. I chose a ratio of 1:7 for the shape of the fishtail,
since that is what I use most often. Mark the shape you want on the steel, and
then slowly grind away, dipping in water to keep it all cool.

I must mention that I have a few other fishtails, both shop made and production.
One does not need more than one of these chisels (… do as I say, not as I do!),
and the only size I use is a 3/8”. Wider than this is unnecessary since the
chisel is only used in the corner of the socket. A bench- or paring chisel is
used for removing most of the waste.

Grinding lands on chisels is a little more complicated. One could do this
freehand and get decent results, but a jig/guide is a better way of achieving
uniform results if you plan to grind the entire length of the blade. This is
increasingly difficult as the blade width becomes narrower. Wide blades have
more registration and are easier to orientate. But one wants narrower chisels
for skinny tails. Of course, one only really needs to ensure that the first 1”
of the blade has minimal lands, since the depth of a board is unlikely to be
greater than this.

The smallest chisel I have ground was made from a 1/8” wide HSS bar. I used a
bench grinder with a cambered wheel, and a Tormek track with Veritas small blade
holder …

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomakeadovetailchis
el_html_35d3f454.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomake
adovetailchisel_html_35d3f454.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomakeadovetailchis
el_html_50398606.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Soyouwanttomake
adovetailchisel_html_50398606.jpg

Hope this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek
261348 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑01‑17 Re: Angle of skew chisels
On Jan 13, 2017 2:51 AM, "Thomas Conroy via OldTools" <
oldtools@s...> wrote:


 But I'd like to hear what other galoots think is most useful.


I had three, now have only two pairs, don't know where the third pair ended
up, but I think I gave it as a galootaclaus gift to someone.

The first set was home made, using cheap garage sale plastic handled
Stanley and Millers Falls.  Don't recall the width or angle

Second set was a Lee valley set, ground to about 32 degrees, thicker and
clunkier than most.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=30025&cat=1,41504,41539&ap=1

Third set was a set of 12mm Nooitgedagt pair hand ground by Dutch
galootaclaus Marten Haugen (SP?) at about 20 degrees. This is the most used
set of the three, but not for Dovetails, but rather all other work.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-J2sbQ78

And while struggling with dovetails, Scott the Happy Camper hand ground a
triangular 1/4" one for me, seen here.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Chisels-Gouges/i-wb6JRVh

This gets hauled out every time I try dovetails.


Kirk in HMB, CA, where rain starts again tomorrow.
261350 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2017‑01‑17 Re: Angle of skew chisels
> And while struggling with dovetails, Scott the Happy Camper hand ground a
> triangular 1/4" one for me, seen here.
>
> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Chisels-Gouges/i-wb6JRVh
   Oh cool. I remember you had sent me a miserable plastic handled 
grocery store quality something to grind. (ewwwwwwwwww)
     When you said you might mention it, I was mortally afraid that is 
what I had sent back.

  But..........at least I scrounged up a little socket chisel for the 
occasion!   Whew!   haahahahaha
      yours Scott

*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
261362 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2017‑01‑20 Re: Angle of skew chisels
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 12:26 PM, scott grandstaff 
wrote:

>
> And while struggling with dovetails, Scott the Happy Camper hand ground a
>> triangular 1/4" one for me, seen here.
>>
>> https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Chisels-Gouges/i-wb6JRVh
>>
>   Oh cool. I remember you had sent me a miserable plastic handled grocery
> store quality something to grind. (ewwwwwwwwww)
>     When you said you might mention it, I was mortally afraid that is what
> I had sent back.
>
>  But..........at least I scrounged up a little socket chisel for the
> occasion!   Whew!   haahahahaha
>      yours Scott
>
>
>
Scott, funny you should mention this.

Back then, I only had crappy plastic handled tools to spare, to risk
grinding on and fouling up.  Now, after years of garage sale and flea
market scrounging, swaps with other galoots, etc, I have a nice odd array
of nicer chisel lined up for use.  The only thing that resembles "a set" is
a few  cheap Stanley's, with plastic handles.

At work, a buddy and I have been pushing a new guy toward the slope.  Did
some sawing and joining for him, in the parking lot here.  Loaned him a
couple of planes and clamps so he could finish the coffee table top (using
metal legs) glue up.  Now he's working on a bed frame (big steps for this
guy!!).

I brought in a couple of planes to give him from the excess pile (notched
rectangle Stanleys, but not blue), and was going to bring him in some
chisels as well.  Those plastic Stanley chisels were in the car, but I just
couldn't do it.  They were part of my "loan to the neighbor" chisels;
sharp, but I won't feel bad if they trash the blades before they return
them.  Then Scott posted this.  I really couldn't do it now.  Scott taught
me some class, and it was time to pay it forward.

That evening, someone posted 3 Buck Bros chisels for sale on a FB page for
a decent price.  I grabbed them, and will fill in some of the gaps from the
Bucks in my odd array of chisels.  He will get some nicer chisels, and can
thank Scott for them.


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, where we keep avoiding the worst of the rain
storms

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