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259908 Christopher Dunn <christopherdunn123@g...> 2016‑08‑24 The speed of rust?
Galoots

I have a wooden spar plane. The mouth is a bit big, but otherwise It's
in great shape. It has a tapered iron that's pretty pitted near the
cutting edge. I started flattening the iron on a diamond stone using
water as the lubricant. It was flattening OK, but felt it was going to
take forever and a day to get out the pits, especially in the corners.
So I wiped off the blade a couple of times on my shirt (that's what
shirts are for) and went and got my sandpaper, two minutes tops. I
came back and about a third of my iron which I had just flattened had
surface rust on it.

What's the speed of rust?

I know on a molecular level as soon as water hits steel you've got
rust. But should I be able to see it in that short of a time?

Another thought, does iron (the material) rust much faster compared to steel?

This iron (the blade) seems really short, and I wonder if all the steel is gone.

Thanks,
Chris
259909 Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
I can’t speak on a molecular level . . . but I’ll be interested in the answer.

Haven’t changed much at all in my shop in the last 3 years. Never had a rust
problem. This year, not much more humid than any other NC summer, it seems
things rust as I look at them . . . . and not just 100 year old steel either.

My wife bought me a band saw for father’s day. (Yes it uses the newfangled
electrical fluid, but it’s 20 years old.) I polished deck to an absolute shine
Sunday afternoon, rubbed it down with carnauba wax, and Monday it had surface
rust on it.

I’m so desperate I’ve resorted to a non silicone synthetic in a spray can
instead of sheep tallow . . .

MPf.
259910 Michael Dawson <misterschmoo@g...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
On 24/08/2016 2:39 p.m., Christopher Dunn wrote:
> What's the speed of rust?

I am sure you will get some very exacting answers pretty soon, but I 
will proffer my experience with metal and salt air/water contact, it 
speeds it up dramatically, I saw a new hatch cover arrive from the 
engineering firm for one of my ships, it was relatively silver and not 
rusty and it went on board, got strapped to the deck and they went to 
sea, 5 weeks later, it literally looked like it had been strapped to the 
deck for years.

But Pitting, sounds to me like some kind of chemical is accelerating the 
rust, I mean even leaving a sharpened edge sitting half in half out of 
water it's going to take a while to pit.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will :-)

Michael
NZ
259911 Michael Dawson <misterschmoo@g...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
On 24/08/2016 3:07 p.m., Mark Pfeifer wrote:
> I’m so desperate I’ve resorted to a non silicone synthetic in a spray can
instead of sheep tallow . . .

Hey Mark

Ever used Camelia oil, I see it advertised at carbatec and if ever I am 
rich I shall buy some things from them

http://www.carbatec.co.nz/product/1178-camelia-oil-240ml-d06e04

This is supposed to be some kind of magic rust protecting oil.

I rubbed my axe in the failed (read very smelly) paste wax experiment (I 
used turps) last time I sharpened it and it was pristine the next time I 
went to use it, after some scraping to remove the wax, seems like a good 
solution for seldom used tool baldes or exposed steel.


Michael
NZ
259912 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
On 2016-08-23 9:19 PM, Michael Dawson wrote:
>
> Ever used Camelia oil, I see it advertised at carbatec and if ever I 
> am rich I shall buy some things from them
>
> http://www.carbatec.co.nz/product/1178-camelia-oil-240ml-d06e04
>
> This is supposed to be some kind of magic rust protecting oil. 
Google it and discover it has miraculous propeties of all sorts. For my 
part, I don't believe in miracles. But it smells OK!

Just sayin'
Don

-- 
Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm. ~ Winston
Churchill
259913 Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
I’d try just about anything…... I’m so tired of rubbing rust off. I’ll look into
Camelia oil.

Since you mentioned it’s costly . . . most of my bench planes are $5 dogmeat
that I restored . . . . I fear Camelia may prove to be for me a Rich People
Thing. Like golf clubs made from Unobtanium, by unicorns, only on a Wednesday in
a leap year. But will definitely look into it, thanks for the tip. If it’s from
the flowering tree of the same name, I have some of those . . . . and I have a
tap and screw box to make a press . . . . hmmm . . . .

For now here’s my keep-rust-at-bay routine:

— each bench has a hunk of fiberboard with bath mat stapled to it, soaked in a
mix of baby oil, Slick Stuff, 3-in-1 Penetrant, and coconut oil
— I lube planes every 10-12 strokes anyway, now I’m swiping the sides and ends
as well
— small spray bottle of 50% mineral spirits / mineral oil mix . . . two pumps
mists a fore plane end to end
— when ambient temp is >93F I have the doors and windows open (not just for
comfort: that kind of heat, I sweat on the tools too much!) but otherwise have a
dehumidifier running to 55% humidity (same % as in my AC’d house)
— box fan to keep air circulating
— drawers and doors open on all tills 
— I’m down to my last stick of it but believe it or not for $8 you can get 2
chap stick tubes of organic sheep tallow and it goes a long way . . . . all of
the wooden planes get that around the mouth



My son just walked through. He’s 17. I’m OCD about making with wood. He makes
electrical things. Not just mix-n-match. He makes some stuff from household
scraps. He’s made a few light bulbs and is working on a motor.

I mentioned my perplexity about flash rust.

 He told me he had a “handful” of D cell batteries “kinda explode” in his mad
science a few weeks back. He’s a good kid so he cleaned up the mess (I didn’t
even know) but now methinks it might have put enough acid into the atmosphere
that it might be accelerating the rust . . . . doors windows open tomorrow, may
sprinkle his work area in the shop with baking soda as if it was holy water . .
. .

Mark.
259914 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
This happens some times, and this is why you're supposed to remove
batteries from devises when they aren't being used for a while (my
camera came with a guide that was emphatic on the point).  I wouldn't
worry about acid in the air, honestly.  The levels were much, much worse
in industrialized areas 40 years ago. 

Mike in Woodland
259915 Michael Dawson <misterschmoo@g...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
On 24/08/2016 5:37 p.m., Mark Pfeifer wrote:
>My son just walked through. He’s 17. I’m OCD about making with wood. He makes
electrical things. Not just mix-n-match. He makes some stuff from household
scraps. He’s made a few light bulbs and is working on a motor.
>I mentioned my perplexity about flash rust.
>He told me he had a “handful” of D cell batteries “kinda explode” in his mad
science a few weeks back. He’s a good kid so he cleaned up the mess (I didn’t
even know) but now methinks it might have put enough acid into the atmosphere
that it might be accelerating the rust . . . . doors windows open tomorrow, may
sprinkle his work area in the shop with baking soda as if it was holy water . .
. .

Of the things I was expecting, this was not even on the list.

Have you considered, some kind of woodshed where you might keep him, 
because according to Cold Comfort Farm, something nasty was seen there.

But I have to say exploding batteries would not have been my first guess 
to that mystery.

I mean I have never thought of building a "stuff that might go terribly 
wrong" space in my workshop, but now I'm reconsidering, kind of like a 
fume cupboard, but you know, bigger.

Michael
NZ
259916 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
There are a lot of things one can use before plunking down $35 for
camelia oil.  My choice is $5 a pint mineral oil. Wipe it on, then wipe
with a dry cloth.  The way tubes on my old ShopSmith got this treatment
and sat outside for two years under a box, and two winters didn't put a
speck of rust on it.  It doesn't gum up and get all over your wood used
this way.  It's how I protect the cooper's tools at Sutter's Fort --
they sit out in an open to the elements room 365 days of the year.  They
get the treatment after the first rain, and that takes care of them
until the next year. 

Check out the substitutes for sperm oil.  Nye made one, and there are
others.  Sperm oil was actually a liquid wax rather than an oil --
worked wonderfully.  Jojoba oil is a similar, though vegetable oil/wax. 
It's not cheap, but it is a whole bunch cheaper than camelia oil.  

As for the carnuba wax, were you using a paste or one of the liquid
forms?  The liquid forms just don't do the job of the paste waxes. 
Tried them and found them wanting.  Otherwise, I don't see how moisture
could get under the wax and cause rust. unless it was rubbed down too
heavily and got rubbed off.  Moisture had to be getting to the surface
of the metal somehow. 

What you're describing sounds like flash rust -- the stuff that attacks
metal that has been de-rusted in mere seconds.  Wipe it completely dry,
apply a coat of mineral oil immediately and the problem ought not to
happen.  Mineral oil is a trick I learned from a furniture maker in the
Philippines who keeps his machines in an open shed 200 yards from the
ocean.  No rust.  

Mike in Woodland
259917 "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
Mike uses Mineral Oil…

You speak of ‘Mineral Oil’  - but that’s one of those names that doesn’t travel
the atlantic well.  It may well have the name Paraffin attached over here - can
you be more specific?  Brand names?  MSDS sheets?

I can speak slightly for camellia oil.  After many years of not buying it, I
finally gave in when a special offer came along.  I made up a wick and use it to
wipe over things, if I remember, but also to wipe soles as needed.  It does the
job, but then, I don’t have any serious rust problems day to day.  For long term
storage, I still have a half of a gallon drum of Shell ‘Ensis’ fluid which I
bought 40 or more years ago.  This is the stuff you get plastered onto machine
tools and cutters and so on that forms a thick coating and peels off when you
unpack the whatever.  Good stuff, available - then - in 2 grades.  A bit too
serious for our use unless placing items into storage for, say, an overseas move
involving a long period and salt water travel, but good to have around.


Richard Wilson
259918 Erik Levin 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
There are so many things that are involved in rust that the experts sometimes
have trouble predicting. If I (not an expert) was going to guess, you got some
salt/dried sweat from you shirt on the surface when you wiped it. The surface
had been disturbed, so any protective film of stable oxide or oils or whatever
was gone, and the moisture and whatever little bit of stuff from your shirt
promoted the rust flash. The particular alloy and condition (heat treatment
history, mechanical history, surface cracking, etc) also play a big part. It is
weird and not simple. I have done grinding of steels in the nastiest conditions,
wet, varying temperature, dust and grime, and the prepped surface stays pretty
good for days or weeks (think the aforementioned commercial ships or sewer
plants). On the other hand, the more common case is that when cleaning down
material under 'good' conditions, an hour later, there is a rust fingerprint,
suitable for enshrinement in a folder in Washington as a study in orange and
shiny, in the middle of the prepped surface where it got touched, followed a few
hours later by a full flash of orange, powdery rust. If the sum total of the
conditions favour a protective film forming, that's what you get.

That said, in my muggy workspace at home, I run the dehumidifier to keep
humidity 45% (this time of year it sits at 70% or higher without help)  or so
and everything gets paste wax or light machine oil. I tend to use sewing machine
oil for most things, as he price is right and it is a good quality acid
free/detergent free oil. I also use vapor corrosion inhibitor packs in the
chests, and tools that have their own cases get VCI chips. The the extent
possible, no water in the shop, either. If I bring in a cold drink, it sits on a
rag to soak up the sweat so I don't need to worry about setting something on a
wet ring later. Since I started getting really OCD about it a few years ago, my
problems with rust mostly went away.

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259919 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil

J~

"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

On Aug 24, 2016, at 7:41 AM, "yorkshireman@y...<mailto:yorkshireman@y...">mailto:yorkshireman@y...>"
mailto:yorkshireman@y...">mailto:yorkshireman@y...>> wrote:

Mike uses Mineral Oil...

You speak of 'Mineral Oil'  - but that's one of those names that doesn't travel
the atlantic well.  It may well have the name Paraffin attached over here - can
you be more specific?  Brand names?  MSDS sheets?
259921 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
> You speak of 'Mineral Oil'  - but that's one of those names that doesn't
travel the atlantic well.  It may well have the name Paraffin attached over here
- can you be more specific?  Brand names?  MSDS sheets?

Yes, it's also known as paraffin.  As far as I know, brand name doesn't
matter.  I use whatever is cheap at the drug store (chemist).  As for
MSDS, since the stuff is sold for internal consumption, and has been
around for decades, I haven't bothered. 

Mike in Woodland
259920 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
Re Rust Prevention:
If something is going to be stored for a long time, I use a product called
Rust Shield, a thick spray available at a local farm supply store.  It
leaves a thick non hardening greasy coating and works for stuff exposed to
extreme humidity.
For fine tools that are going to be stored for a long time in boxes etc, I
use Boeshield T9. It's expensive, but great for precision (Eg Starrett
machinist stuff)
For everyday tools in the shed, I use 3 in 1 oil  light sewing machine oil
that doesn't gum up over long periods).  I have use an oily cloth to wipe
down planes, saws, hammers, and chisels, and re charge the cloth from time
to time. I have not had issues with finishes etc, and the tools don't
rust.  Also great for reducing friction on the soles of planes and on saws.
I like the 3 in 1 brand better than Mineral oil.  I do use mineral oil to
mix a beeswax polishes for wood, but not on tools.
Cheers from Waterloo
Claudio

On Wednesday, 24 August 2016, John M Johnston (jmjhnstn) <
jmjhnstn@m...> wrote:
259922 <gtgrouch@r...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
Won't work for a tailed apprentice or a shopwide rust attack if caused by acid
fumes, but I've found if I store my tools in something organic, the storage
media seems to prevent rust.

I've had good luck with wooden toolboxes, cut-off legs from denim pants, even
cardboard boxes. I use cotton pillow cases over my reloading tools, too.

YMMV, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
---- Michael Blair  wrote: 

=============
There are a lot of things one can use before plunking down $35 for
camelia oil.  My choice is $5 a pint mineral oil. Wipe it on, then wipe
with a dry cloth.  The way tubes on my old ShopSmith got this treatment
and sat outside for two years under a box, and two winters didn't put a
speck of rust on it.  It doesn't gum up and get all over your wood used
this way.  It's how I protect the cooper's tools at Sutter's Fort --
they sit out in an open to the elements room 365 days of the year.  They
get the treatment after the first rain, and that takes care of them
until the next year.
259924 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
Hi

On 2016-08-23 22:37, Mark Pfeifer wrote:
> He told me he had a “handful” of D cell batteries “kinda explode” in
> his mad science a few weeks back.

Now, why did that not occur to me as the probable cause?

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
259926 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2016‑08‑24 Re: The speed of rust?
GG's: 
Nearly all of today's disposable dry cell batteries are Alkaline cells.  They
WILL eventually leak. They are vented. They will leak after aging out on a shelf
without ever being used!
The exudate of an Alkaline cell is...wait for it...not acidic. It's basic, and
removes with vinegar.
The salt did it.
John Ruth

Sent from my iPhone
259927 Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> 2016‑08‑25 Re: The speed of rust?
Wow this is a great thread.

On the mineral oil (paraffin?) I can attest that it is a great too lubricant and
also an effective aid to digestive regularity. (Hey, I’m 47, and was on the road
for years eating mostly in restaurants. Hope nobody’s offended. It’s just
biology.)

In any good experiment you eliminate variables so you can be as certain as
possible about a causal relationship in changed outcome. Sadly this isn’t a
science experiment and I don’t have a control group, so can only continue to
speculate….

It might well have been a battery leak, acidic or base, because in addition to
Thomas’ D-cell experiments, I remembered (by finding them after several years)
that I had stored some tractor batteries behind the spring pole lathe.

As you might imagine, with enough to hide a pair of batteries, said batteries
are not the only thing stuffed back in that corner. Among other things, a
shocking amount of mouse detritus, and a fair amount of mold and mildew. (Which
explains my recent watery eyes and sneezing.) I cleared all of the clutter out
and used a certain amount of concrobium. Moral of story: having a 32x28 foot
shop is a blessing and I’m grateful for it. Part of my gratitude needs to
include keeping it as organized as I know it should be. My plane irons may
continue to rust but at least I’m no longer sneezing. Bonus!

But . . . . Mike (in Woodland, using mineral oil) asked a question about what
type of carnauba wax I’m using. And I think he nailed it.

Years ago when I had what is now the woodshop stuffed with MG, Triumph, SAAB and
Mercedeses, all of my coaches were drivers. I hate a show car or a garage queen.
But since there were several of them (quite a stable back then) no one car got
driven a ton. So I’d put ‘em  up and use an aerosol “clean and wax” product.
This was better than . . . . you guessed it . . . . washing them with water and
then leaving them sitting with the water inclusion that pre-CAD cars are famous
for. (Especially the Triumphs and MGs.)

I no longer keep a stable, so that spray and wax product is what I was burning
up on my planes and holdfasts.

Intrigued by Mike’s note I went and checked . . . carnauba wax is about 18 on
the ingredients . . . . anyone want to guess what the first one was?

It’s never really about the answer is it? It’s all about asking the right
questions. Mike, well done.

Mark.
259935 Michael Parrish <michaelparrish@o...> 2016‑08‑25 Re: The speed of rust?
My first thought was that your shirt transferred some sweat onto the 
tool leading to the rust.  The hypothesis I've heard from some galoots 
(not sure I believe it) is that some folks have more corrosive sweat 
than others.  Supposedly, these guys have known 'that one guy' around 
the shop that rusts anything metal he touches, when nobody else does.  I 
think the real problem is that we are all ugly bags of mostly water - 
leaky ones to boot.


Michael
259937 Henry Bibb <hqbibb@g...> 2016‑08‑25 Re: The speed of rust?
I'm one of those "corrosive sweaters" of which you speak.  I've eaten the
plating off every plated wristwatch I've ever had, and any tool I touch in wam
weather gets immediately wiped with oil or something, lest it rust before I can
pick it up again.  :(

Sent from my iPhone4
259938 Dan Indrigo <dindrigo@r...> 2016‑08‑25 Re: The speed of rust?
Well you had just finished creating some really fine iron dust, then 
spread it around on a pitted surface with a cloth that probably held 
some salty liquid, or the residue of such liquid.

Under the right conditions that's going to start rusting pretty fast.
259939 Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> 2016‑08‑25 Re: The speed of rust?
Most any packaged consumer good you buy now seems to have tiny silica desiccant
packets in it.

The inter webs tell me they really do suck up moisture. The FDA says they are
GRAS. Not that I place much credence in the FDA for my overall health . . . but
they are pretty reliable to the level of “eat this and die”. Well at least until
it comes to certain pharma products, but now I’m getting off list charter . . .
.

Wikipedia says the silica contents of these packets are non-reactive with metal
until temperatures go over 300 degrees . . . there’s more to it than that, and
it’s only some metals even at 300F, but when I saw 300 degrees I stopped
reading. I have no plans to cook a silica souffle in my Stanley 5.

So there appears to be no downside to these. One of my offspring works stocking
shelves and (at my request) collected me a whole box full of them instead of
tossing them out with the packaging. I’ve started putting one in the mouth of
every plane. I can’t say it’s having any impact at all but somehow it makes me
feel better. And the bottle of muriatic was double bagged and moved out of the
shop today.

Would it be in poor taste to quote The Exorcist in a rust context?

MPf.
259940 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2016‑08‑25 Re: The speed of rust?
There is a certain weight of water that each will absorb, then they are “full”
and you have to replace them or dry them out.  The small packs can’t absorb much
at all, but I suppose a whole load of small packs would do something.  IMHO they
also depend on their being enough moisture content in the air, and if there was
just a small amount of moisture but something for it to react to like sweat or
Muriatic acid, then they wouldn’t stop the rust.

Ed Minch

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