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234500 Chuck Taylor <cft98208@y...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Gentle Galoots,

Mark Fortune wrote:

> What would be the best bit of kit for flattening bench stones; I have
> amassed=A0 a good stock of bench stones now from car boot sales and
> flee markets,

I have a similar problem. :-)

> =A0... lots of different types, they are almost all badly dished with
> chips here and there,=A0 ...I love some of my old bench stones and
> want to get them propperly flat. I want a=A0 tidy solution -
> aggressive cut as there is a lot of material to move and was
> thinking=A0 of buying a diamond stone??? , any advice would be much
> appreciated.

A diamond plate will do the job. I recommend the "XXC" ("Extra-Extra
Course") model. That's what finally worked for me. You still need to
flush the swarf with water; I use a spray bottle of water with a little
detergent added.

Another method is the 3-stone method. Call your stones A, B, and C.
First rub A against B, then B against C, and C against A. Repeat enough
times and all 3 are guaranteed to=A0 end up flat. Two stones aren't
enough to guarantee flatness, but 3 are.

The diamond plate will be faster, but more expensive.

Good luck! Chuck Taylor north of soggy Seattle

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234498 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
 DMT XXC diamond plate, or Atoma 140 plate will do the job easiest. You
 could use drywall screen on a flat plate, butt that would be slower. Or
 the sidewalk.

On Nov 19, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Mark Fortune wrote:

> Dear Galoots, What would be the best bit of kit for flattening bench
> stones; I have amassed a good stock of bench stones now from car boot
> sales and flee markets, lots of different types, they are almost all
> badly dished with chips here and there, I have tried sand paper dry on
> float glass and end up with little dips, I think this is because I am
> not flushing the waste away and it clogs parts of the sand paper,
> maybe water would help? - I am currently using Japanese waterstones
> (which I keep perfectly flat) for lapping my chisels and plane irons
> but waterstones are such a pane cause they wear so quick and are so
> messy. I love some of my old bench stones and want to get them
> propperly flat. I want a tidy solution - aggressive cut as there is a
> lot of material to move and was thinking of buying a diamond stone???
> , any advice would be much appreciated. Mark
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/ OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234501 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On Nov 19, 2012, at 18:42 , Chuck Taylor  wrote:

> Mark Fortune wrote:
> 
>> >>  ... lots of different types, they are almost all badly dished with chips 
here and there, 
>> >> ...I love some of my old bench stones and want to get them propperly flat.
 I want a 
>> >> tidy solution - aggressive cut as there is a lot of material to move and w
as thinking 
>> of buying a diamond stone??? , any advice would be much appreciated.
> 
> > A diamond plate will do the job. I recommend the "XXC" ("Extra-Extra Course"
) model.
> > That's what finally worked for me. You still need to flush the swarf with wa
ter; I use
> a spray bottle of water with a little detergent added.

I use a DMT D11X Dia-Sharp plate, 220-grit to flatten and dress my oilstones,
with WD-40 as the fluid.  The sidewalk method worked for me too, but
I ended up with some grooves in a medium india stone from it.  YMMV.

Adam (unaffiliated with any company named herein, etc.)
Port Angeles, WA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234502 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
I can't believe it
  Nobody looked in the archives? How many times we have to tell this to 
each other?

Find a piece of semi smooth sidewalk where the wife does not frequent. 
Bring on the garden hose, at a dribble.
  Work in a large figure 8 most of the time.

  The stone will be flat in no time, but that concrete will glisten!
Quick, wipe some dirt on before the wife wants you to polish the whole walk!
  yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234509 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Right now I am wishing I had one of those diamond plates, but I am not going to 
buy one. I stupidly dropped my prized large translucent white Arkansas stone on 
the concrete floor. it broke into 2 pieces. After I got the tears stopped, I stu
ck it back together with CA glue. But of course, the 2 surfaces are not fair. I 
will work them back to flat on my concrete block. And I will cry the entire time
. I bought that stone in 1976, and I have always cherished it. 

On Nov 19, 2012, at 8:55 PM, Mark Lovett Wells wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Mark Fortune  wrote:
>> What would be the best bit of kit for flattening bench stones;
> ...
>> >> was thinking of buying a diamond stone??? , any advice would be much appre
ciated.
> 
> One thing I like about this group is that you won't get many people
> telling you to buy stuff, especially not expensive stuff.
> 
> Last year at our local Lie-Nielsen event, I stood at the sharpening
> station, trying out their expensive sandpaper for grinding the primary
> bevel.  While I was doing that, people started asking questions.
> Maybe they thought  I knew something since I was standing behind the
> sharpening stand.
> 
> A guy came with an oil stone and said, "How can I flatten this stone?"
> Sitting right in front of me was one of those huge diamond stones
> like this:
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=DMT-DiaFlat
> I said, "Let's try that."  In a minute or less his stone was flat.
> 
> Clearly it works.  Is it worth the price?  That's your decision.
> 
> Of course you could also just take all your stones to a Lie-Nielsen
> event near you.  You could probably use the exact same diamond plate I
> did.  ;-)
> 
> Mark
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234499 John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
I know that some folks use diamond stones, but the easiest and cheapest way
that I have found so far is simply using the side of a concrete block that
I flush with water occasionally to flush away the dust.  Works for both
water and oil stones.

Doc

On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Mark Fortune  wrote:

> Dear Galoots,
> What would be the best bit of kit for flattening bench stones; I have
> amassed a good stock of bench stones now from car boot sales and flee
> markets, lots of different types, they are almost all badly dished with
> chips here and there, I have tried sand paper dry on float glass and end up
> with little dips, I think this is because I am not flushing the waste away
> and it clogs parts of the sand paper, maybe water would help? - I am
> currently using Japanese waterstones  (which I keep perfectly flat) for
> lapping my chisels and plane irons but waterstones are such a pane cause
> they wear so quick and are so messy. I love some of my old bench stones and
> want to get them propperly flat. I want a tidy solution - aggressive cut as
> there is a lot of material to move and was thinking of buying a diamond
> stone??? , any advice would be much appreciated.
> Mark
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234507 Mark Lovett Wells <mark@m...> 2012‑11‑19 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Mark Fortune  wrote:
> What would be the best bit of kit for flattening bench stones;
...
> > was thinking of buying a diamond stone??? , any advice would be much appreci
ated.

One thing I like about this group is that you won't get many people
telling you to buy stuff, especially not expensive stuff.

Last year at our local Lie-Nielsen event, I stood at the sharpening
station, trying out their expensive sandpaper for grinding the primary
bevel.  While I was doing that, people started asking questions.
Maybe they thought  I knew something since I was standing behind the
sharpening stand.

A guy came with an oil stone and said, "How can I flatten this stone?"
 Sitting right in front of me was one of those huge diamond stones
like this:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=DMT-DiaFlat
I said, "Let's try that."  In a minute or less his stone was flat.

Clearly it works.  Is it worth the price?  That's your decision.

Of course you could also just take all your stones to a Lie-Nielsen
event near you.  You could probably use the exact same diamond plate I
did.  ;-)

Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234492 Mark Fortune <sparkler@e...> 2012‑11‑19 Flattening Benchstones
Dear Galoots,
What would be the best bit of kit for flattening bench stones; I have amassed a 
good stock of bench stones now from car boot sales and flee markets, lots of dif
ferent types, they are almost all badly dished with chips here and there, I have
 tried sand paper dry on float glass and end up with little dips, I think this i
s because I am not flushing the waste away and it clogs parts of the sand paper,
 maybe water would help? - I am currently using Japanese waterstones  (which I k
eep perfectly flat) for lapping my chisels and plane irons but waterstones are s
uch a pane cause they wear so quick and are so messy. I love some of my old benc
h stones and want to get them propperly flat. I want a tidy solution - aggressiv
e cut as there is a lot of material to move and was thinking of buying a diamond
 stone??? , any advice would be much appreciated.
Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234517 "Ken Vaughn" <kvaughn65@c...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Several years ago I decided to lap my well used Arkansas stones -- Washita 
(pink/grey), Soft Arkansas (grey), and Hard Arkansas (white).  I used a 
piece of window glass sitting on newspaper on top of my cast iron table saw 
surface, which I know to be very flat.  I made a slurry with silicon carbide 
powder and water.  You can buy silicon carbide powder at a lapidary supply 
shop and it comes in various grits to be used for tumbling agate and the 
like -- I bought coarse (60 to 80 grit) and medium (220 grit).  Using a 
figure 8 motion, I lapped each with the coarse powder.  Because the stones 
had been used with oil, they didn't absorb the water and it was easy to see 
the dished portion.

When the stones were flat, I turned the glass over and repeated the process 
with the medium grit silicon carbide powder.  This left a nice flat surface 
which I gave a final dressing with a sheet of 320 grit "wet and dry" 
sandpaper and water. My stones were not badly dished to start with, but if 
they had been, I would have flattened them on a cement block before using 
the silicon carbide powder.  It took around 2 hours to lap the three stones 
on both sides.

Ken Vaughn 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234526 Alex Moseley <alex_moseley@y...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Mark,

Last month I put the advice of the Porch to the test [1]. =A0I found
that it definitely helped to have a liquid to float away the debris,
that cloth-backed aluminum oxide flattened my medium India stone without
the deep gouges I got from the sidewalk (perhaps not all concrete is
created equally?), but a coarse diamond stone left the freshest cutting
surface. =A0My largest diamond "stone" was not big enough to properly
lap my India stone. =A0

A large DMT lapping plate appears to be a good investment, given its
utility and durability. =A0Once you get your stones lapped, I would
recommend regular maintenance (perhaps annually, depending on how much
you sharpen) to keep a fresh, flat surface with minimal effort. =A0Once
you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to do it again.

[1]=A0http://liferevisited.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/flattening-
   oilstones-an-experiment/


Cheers, Alex

________________________________
Alex Moseley | alex_moseley@y... | http://liferevisited.wordpress.com

"You must either make a tool of the creature, or a man of him. =A0You
cannot make both." - John Ruskin=A0
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234534 Alex Moseley <alex_moseley@y...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
Good insight, Don. =A0It would be interesting to know what method was
used for flattening the communal "rubbing stone," but without at the
same time knowing what that stone was made from, it might not be
relevant to our particular setups. Maybe it comes down to picking a
starting point and following up with practice and observation to find
what works?

I can't say I've found some magic number of strokes, but I'm
definitely more mindful of how I use my oilstones now than I was when
I bought them.=A0

While I haven't made the plunge yet, I plan at some point to buy one of
the large DMT plates for regular maintenance of my oilstones, as well as
for other lapping tasks related to my old tool affliction. I sure did
like my India stone much more once I dressed it with the coarse diamond
stone. =A0

Best Regards, Alex =A0

----- Original Message ----- From: Don Schwartz  To: Alex
Moseley 
Cc: "sparkler@e..." ; oldtools list
     Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012
    12:20 PM Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Flattening Benchstones

On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:


>=A0 Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to do
>it again.
>


Quoting part of my own earlier post:

"it was great fun flattening stones, but I would prefer not to make a
hobby of it. So I'm interested in any technique that purports to keep
stones flat. This week I've read in two different sources of the need to
flatten a stone AFTER EVERY USE.

1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to
   flatten the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being fined
   for failing to do so. Presumably that rubbing stone (as distinct from
   a hone) was a piece of sandstone used in preference to a wheel
   thereof, so it would likely wear pretty quick, like some waterstones.

2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods
   that the hone should be flattened after each use.

So, two sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious,
but I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or digging a
garden) - easier done a little at a time....

Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ... which
he says gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same time.
Without going into detail, he has a very specific recipe for number and
direction of strokes crosswise of the stone, and the portion of stone to
use, followed by equally detailed specifications for lengthwise strokes.

FWIW Don

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234531 Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:


>   Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to do it again.
>


Quoting part of my own earlier post:

"it was great fun flattening stones, but I would prefer not to make a 
hobby of it. So I'm interested in any technique that purports to keep 
stones flat. This week I've read in two different sources of the need to 
flatten a stone AFTER EVERY USE.

1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to 
flatten the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being fined for 
failing to do so. Presumably that rubbing stone (as distinct from a 
hone) was a piece of sandstone used in preference to a wheel thereof, so 
it would likely wear pretty quick, like some waterstones.

2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods 
that the hone should be flattened after each use.

So, two sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious, 
but I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or digging a 
garden) - easier done a little at a time....

Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ... which 
he says gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same time. 
Without going into detail, he has a very specific recipe for number and 
direction of strokes crosswise of the stone, and the portion of stone to 
use, followed by equally detailed specifications for lengthwise strokes.

FWIW
Don
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234540 "professor@f..." <professor@frontiernet.net> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
In the video Lie-Nielsen provides with their #62 low angle jack, Deneb
Michalski (sp?) makes the same recommendation--flatten after every use.
=A0 Frank S in IA

--- On Tue, 11/20/12, Don Schwartz  wrote:

From: Don Schwartz  Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re:
Flattening Benchstones To: "Alex Moseley" 
Cc: "oldtools list" , "sparkler@e..." 
    Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2012, 12:20 PM

On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:


>=A0=A0=A0Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to
>do it again. 

Quoting part of my own earlier post:

"it was great fun flattening stones, but I would prefer not to make a
hobby of it. So I'm interested in any technique that purports to keep
stones flat. This week I've read in two different sources of the need to
flatten a stone AFTER EVERY USE.

1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to
   flatten the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being fined
   for failing to do so. Presumably that rubbing stone (as distinct from
   a hone) was a piece of sandstone used in preference to a wheel
   thereof, so it would likely wear pretty quick, like some waterstones.

2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods
   that the hone should be flattened after each use.

So, two sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious,
but I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or digging a
garden) - easier done a little at a time....

Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ... which
he says gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same time.
Without going into detail, he has a very specific recipe for number and
direction of strokes crosswise of the stone, and the portion of stone to
use, followed by equally detailed specifications for lengthwise strokes.

FWIW Don
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234542 Ken Shepard <waruba@c...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
Rob Cosman uses water stones and seems to spend as much time
flatteningthem as he does in using
them to sharpen.  This need for incessant flattening is the main reason I
no longer use my water stones.  IMHO, this obsession with flattening stones
is akin to some of the other obsessions that seem to periodically grip
woodworkers; obsessions that take time away from actually working wood.

Ken Shepard

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Don Schwartz wrote:

> On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:
>
> 
>
>    Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to do it
>> again.
>>
>>  
>
> Quoting part of my own earlier post:
>
> "it was great fun flattening stones, but I would prefer not to make a
> hobby of it. So I'm interested in any technique that purports to keep
> stones flat. This week I've read in two different sources of the need to
> flatten a stone AFTER EVERY USE.
>
> 1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to
> flatten the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being fined for
> failing to do so. Presumably that rubbing stone (as distinct from a hone)
> was a piece of sandstone used in preference to a wheel thereof, so it would
> likely wear pretty quick, like some waterstones.
>
> 2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods
> that the hone should be flattened after each use.
>
> So, two sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious,
> but I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or digging a
> garden) - easier done a little at a time....
>
> Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ... which he
> says gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same time. Without
> going into detail, he has a very specific recipe for number and direction
> of strokes crosswise of the stone, and the portion of stone to use,
> followed by equally detailed specifications for lengthwise strokes.
>
> FWIW
> Don
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/**mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/**archive/faq.html
>
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/**archive/
>
> OldTools@r...**edu 
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/**mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234547 Tom Holloway <thholloway@u...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
I don't want to hear about it all being there in the Archives, because
I don't think it has been said in a while: All this folderol about the
time, hassle, and mess of flattening of stones of various traditions
and provenance is one of the reasons I stick to Scary Sharp. My
granite plate and my chunk of plate glass never go out of flat,
because I renew the surface(s) [i.e., the various grits of paper] as
needed. I have at my disposal about 8 or 10 grits descending course to
fine from 80 to 2000, rather than 2 or 3 degrees of abrasiveness. To
establish the primary bevel in a rehab operation I use a hand-cranked
grinder, or if the bevel as found is shallower than 25 degrees I just
hit with 80 grit to get a surface at that angle and then work on down.
Quickly. In reworking a worn edge I move in higher angle increments
about 2 degrees at a time and start at 150 or 220 grit, and then down.
This gives me about three such renewed edges before I get much past 30
degrees and need to regrind and start over. I do all this dry,
vacuuming off the swarf/dust as needed. Yes, I have the expense of
buying the paper and the agony of slicing it with an errant stroke
before it is used up, and the hassle of replacing it when it gets too
shredded or worn out. But those are prices I will pay to avoid the
alternatives I have been reading about in this thread. Nothing in
sharpening comes free of some expense, hassle, and time, and all
systems have their upsides, downsides, and tradeoffs. This works for
me. Your mileage may vary. Tom Holloway

On Nov 20, 2012, at 4:54 PM, Mark Fortune  wrote:
> I do appreciate the importance of flatness for lapping chisels & plane
> irons, once properly prepared its easy to maintain the lapped face,
> trouble is I collect old "sheffield" chisels and lap maybe one or two
> a week - most are rust pitted wrecks - i start with sand paper stuck
> to a disk on my lathe & gradually get finer and finer then on to
> course/fine/superfine waterstones to mirror shine, (oh how beautifully
> they will cut after that!) I usually flatten each waterstone about 12
> times in one session. Physically & mentally the whole process is
> punishment/abuse, but the worst part is all that horrible slurry from
> the waterstones, that's why I want to see them in "dry dock" and put
> some real stones into action.> I think I might go for a DMT dia flat
> lapping plate to prepare the bench stones. If I don't spend the money
> - the wife will!!
>> On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:03, Ken Shepard  wrote: Rob Cosman
>> uses water stones and seems to spend as much time flattening them as
>> he does in using them to sharpen. This need for incessant flattening
>> is the main reason I no longer use my water stones. IMHO, this
>> obsession with flattening stones is akin to some of the other
>> obsessions that seem to periodically grip woodworkers; obsessions
>> that take time away from actually working wood.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234548 Chuck Taylor <cft98208@y...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
Mark and other Gentle Galoots,

Mark F. wrote:

===
=A0i start with sand paper stuck to a disk on my lathe & gradually get
finer and finer then on to course/fine/superfine waterstones to mirror
shine, (oh how beautifully they will cut after that!)=A0 I usually
flatten each waterstone about 12 times in one session. Physically &
mentally the whole process is punishment/abuse, but the worst part is
all that horrible slurry from the waterstones, that's why I want to see
them in "dry dock" and put some real stones into action.=A0

===

I think that Thomas Lie-Nielsen put it best in his book, Sharpening
(page 16): =A0"People who like oilstones prefer the mess that oil makes
to the mess involved with using waterstones." I know I do.

Chuck Taylor north of Seattle

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234550 Chuck Taylor <cft98208@y...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
Tom and other Gentle Galoots,

Tom H. wrote: =A0"All this folderol about the time, hassle, and mess of
flattening of stones of various traditions and provenance is one of the
reasons I stick to Scary Sharp."

On of the reasons I like using old hand tools is because that's what
European and American craftsmen of the 19th century and earlier used.
They managed to do some pretty good work that way. That's also one of
the reasons I like to use oilstones. =A0YMMV.

Does anybody know what kind of sharpening stones they use at the various
historical re-enactment sites (Colonial Williamsburg, Plimouth
Plantation, Fort Vancouver, etc.)?

Best regards, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234551 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
On 2012-11-20 18:21, Tom Holloway wrote:
> I don't want to hear about it all being there in the Archives,
> because I don't think it has been said in a while: All this folderol
> about the time, hassle, and mess of flattening of stones of various
> traditions and provenance is one of the reasons I stick to Scary
> Sharp.

Amen to that.

I have been reading the schemes people have adopted for flattening their
stones with amazement. Hours flattening stones. More time spent
flattening that sharpening.

Now I have to admit that anyone who uses old tools does it from
enjoyment of using the tools. Most prefer to buy huge electrical
monsters that remove the worker from the wood.

Time spent on something you enjoy is time well spent. If your hobby is
flattening water stones and oil stones, go for it.

However, most of the stores in the past week do not seem to be
expressions of joy. They seem more like punishments.

I spent quite a bit of time learning about abrasives, about metal, about
how abrasives affect metal. It was a hobby and I enjoyed it and still do
enjoy research. That is time spent reading and testing, it is not time
spent woodworking. Two separate hobbies.

When it comes to sharpening tools to use I spend almost no time. In 10
minutes I sharpen a couple of three plane irons and a few chisels and am
done. No before work other than getting the stuff out of the storage
box. No after stuff other than putting it back. Now and then I replace a
piece of abrasive paper, not often.

Someone spent 3 hours flattening one stone! I don't spend 3 hours
sharpening in a year.

If sharpening is not your hobby, just a means to an end, which is
woodworking. If flattening stones is not your hobby, something you would
rather avoid if you could. If you can build a simple wooden jig and do a
few other simple tasks, you might be interested in using abrasives on
glass the way I do:

   http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/

I just watched an episode of the Big Bang Theory in which the theme was
people who cannot stop talking about a single topic. People for whom all
conversations revert to a single theme. I sure don't want to become one
of those people, so I don't mention my web site on this or any forum but
once every couple of years.

The archive search finds many threads with this link, but most of the 
threads do not have the link.

Google finds 57 hits, but some are duplicates and some were not in 
emails from me.

The reason I use sheet abrasives on glass is I could not get stones to 
work. I have plenty of water and oil stones of various kinds and they 
don't work for me. Probably 40 in total. Moved them from one storage 
shelf to another in recent months.

The one exception is the silicon carbide coarse stone I use for 
grinding. It has never needed flattening in part because I never work 
the edge on this stone - just the bevel back of the edge. The need for 
flat back there is easily met even with a stone on which I have ground 
dozens of irons over years. Not flattened once.

I should put all my stones into a FMM message some day, but I don't want 
to inflict this stuff on anyone else either.

Brent
-- 
Victoria, B.C., Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234546 Steve Fravel <cocobolo@s...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
On Wed, 2012-11-21 at 00:54 +0000, Mark Fortune wrote:

> If I don't spend the money - the wife will!!

That right there is probably some of the best and most relevant, to my
situation at least, non-directly tool-related advice I've seen here on
the porch.  Thank you.  I'll remember it next time I'm sitting on the
fence regarding the purchase of an old tool.

-- Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234552 <roygriggs@c...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
---- Brent Beach  wrote: 

>    http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/
>> Brent
> -- 
> Victoria, B.C., Canada

GG,
 And that's where I finally found a method that worked for me!!! 
...and now when I cut myself they are good clean cuts....

GSM ( Good S*** Maynard!!!)

--
roy griggs
roygriggs@c...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234554 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Flattening Benchstones
I must be doing something wrong. I have been using the same stones for a very lo
ng time now (probably 40 years), and I honestly can't tell you whether or not th
ey are less than flat. I really don't care because they sharpen my tools adequat
ely just as they are. I started with new stones, and have used them carefully. I
 suppose if you start with old worn stones they don't get better unless you flat
ten them. But why would you start out with old stones? 

All I want is sharp tools to do woodworking, and I truly doubt that a millimeter
 here and there is going to make any difference. As my daddy used to say, "We ai
n't building fine watches here."

I am very suspicious of people who have to have perfection in their tools. The s
kill is not in the tool. I have personally never seen an old plane or chisel whi
ch had a flat back when I found it. That says to me that this need for perfectio
n that we feel was not felt by the old timers. It is fairly new, and it tells me
 that people today have too much time and too much money, or they wouldn't even 
consider such things.

How's that for a "Bah! Humbug???"

On Nov 20, 2012, at 4:54 PM, Mark Fortune wrote:

> > I do appreciate the importance of flatness for lapping chisels & plane irons
, once properly prepared its easy to maintain the lapped face, trouble is I coll
ect old "sheffield" chisels and lap maybe one or two a week - most are rust pitt
ed wrecks - i start with sand paper stuck to a disk on my lathe & gradually get 
finer and finer then on to course/fine/superfine waterstones to mirror shine, (o
h how beautifully they will cut after that!)  I usually flatten each waterstone 
about 12 times in one session. Physically & mentally the whole process is punish
ment/abuse, but the worst part is all that horrible slurry from the waterstones,
 that's why I want to see them in "dry dock" and put some real stones into actio
n. 
> > I think I might go for a DMT dia flat lapping plate to prepare the bench sto
nes.
> If I don't spend the money - the wife will!!
> 
> Mark Fortune
> 
> 
> On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:03, Ken Shepard  wrote:
> 
>> >> Rob Cosman uses water stones and seems to spend as much time flattening th
em as he does in using them to sharpen.  This need for incessant flattening is t
he main reason I no longer use my water stones.  IMHO, this obsession with flatt
ening stones is akin to some of the other obsessions that seem to periodically g
rip woodworkers; obsessions that take time away from actually working wood.
>> 
>> Ken Shepard
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
>> On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to do it again.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Quoting part of my own earlier post:
>> 
>> >> "it was great fun flattening stones, but I would prefer not to make a hobb
y of it. So I'm interested in any technique that purports to keep stones flat. T
his week I've read in two different sources of the need to flatten a stone AFTER
 EVERY USE.
>> 
>> >> 1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to flatte
n the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being fined for failing to do
 so. Presumably that rubbing stone (as distinct from a hone) was a piece of sand
stone used in preference to a wheel thereof, so it would likely wear pretty quic
k, like some waterstones.
>> 
>> >> 2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods t
hat the hone should be flattened after each use.
>> 
>> >> So, two sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious, b
ut I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or digging a garden) 
- easier done a little at a time....
>> 
>> >> Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ... which he 
says gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same time. Without going int
o detail, he has a very specific recipe for number and direction of strokes cros
swise of the stone, and the portion of stone to use, followed by equally detaile
d specifications for lengthwise strokes.
>> 
>> FWIW
>> Don
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> 
>> To change your subscription options:
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> To read the FAQ:
>> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>> 
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>> 
>> OldTools@r...
>> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234553 Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> 2012‑11‑20 Re: Flattening Benchstones
I keep my waterstones flat with a 220 grit DMT stone, a good multi-
takser that I also use for the first stages of sharpening and lapping.
It only takes a few swipes each time I use my stones- maybe 10 seconds
at most. I started doing this after watching Larry Williams' DVD
Sharpening Profiled Hand Tools. He does the same with his oil stones
before he uses them. I figure he's a pretty reliable source . It's made
a big difference in my sharpening, reducing the time it takes and giving
me more consistent results. If you take care of your stones they won't
get out of flat.

If I had to start over again I'd pick oil stones, but I'm determined to
use these water stones until they are used up. Josh

On Nov 20, 2012, at 1:20 PM, Don Schwartz wrote:

> On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:
>>  Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want
>> to do it again.
>>> 
>> Quoting part of my own earlier post: "it was great fun flattening
>> stones, but I would prefer not to make a hobby of it. So I'm
>> interested in any technique that purports to keep stones flat. This
>> week I've read in two different sources of the need to flatten a
>> stone AFTER EVERY USE.
>> 1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to
>>    flatten the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being
>>    fined for failing to do so. Presumably that rubbing stone (as
>>    distinct from a hone) was a piece of sandstone used in preference
>>    to a wheel thereof, so it would likely wear pretty quick, like
>>    some waterstones.
>> 2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and
>>    Methods that the hone should be flattened after each use. So, two
>>    sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious,
>>    but I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or
>>    digging a garden) - easier done a little at a time....
>>    Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ...
>>    which he says gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same
>>    time. Without going into detail, he has a very specific recipe for
>>    number and direction of strokes crosswise of the stone, and the
>>    portion of stone to use, followed by equally detailed
>>    specifications for lengthwise strokes.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234544 Mark Fortune <sparkler@e...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
I do appreciate the importance of flatness for lapping chisels & plane irons, on
ce properly prepared its easy to maintain the lapped face, trouble is I collect 
old "sheffield" chisels and lap maybe one or two a week - most are rust pitted w
recks - i start with sand paper stuck to a disk on my lathe & gradually get fine
r and finer then on to course/fine/superfine waterstones to mirror shine, (oh ho
w beautifully they will cut after that!)  I usually flatten each waterstone abou
t 12 times in one session. Physically & mentally the whole process is punishment
/abuse, but the worst part is all that horrible slurry from the waterstones, tha
t's why I want to see them in "dry dock" and put some real stones into action. 
  I think I might go for a DMT dia flat lapping plate to prepare the bench stone
s.
If I don't spend the money - the wife will!!

Mark Fortune

On 20 Nov 2012, at 23:03, Ken Shepard  wrote:

> > Rob Cosman uses water stones and seems to spend as much time flattening them
 as he does in using them to sharpen.  This need for incessant flattening is the
 main reason I no longer use my water stones.  IMHO, this obsession with flatten
ing stones is akin to some of the other obsessions that seem to periodically gri
p woodworkers; obsessions that take time away from actually working wood.
> 
> Ken Shepard
> 
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Don Schwartz  wrote:
> On 11/20/2012 10:37 AM, Alex Moseley wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>   Once you rehab a deeply dished oilstone, you might not want to do it again.
> 
> 
> 
> Quoting part of my own earlier post:
> 
> > "it was great fun flattening stones, but I would prefer not to make a hobby 
of it. So I'm interested in any technique that purports to keep stones flat. Thi
s week I've read in two different sources of the need to flatten a stone AFTER E
VERY USE.
> 
> > 1. The Joyner and Cabinetmaker, refers to workmen being expected to flatten 
the communal 'rubbing stone' after using it, and being fined for failing to do s
o. Presumably that rubbing stone (as distinct from a hone) was a piece of sandst
one used in preference to a wheel thereof, so it would likely wear pretty quick,
 like some waterstones.
> 
> > 2. David Charlesworth likewise says in A Guide to Hand Tools and Methods tha
t the hone should be flattened after each use.
> 
> > So, two sources ... suggesting this be done. It sounds a little tedious, but
 I expect it might be like putting tools away after use (or digging a garden) - 
easier done a little at a time....
> 
> > Charlesworth also promotes a technique for flattening blades ... which he sa
ys gets the job done and reduces hollowing at the same time. Without going into 
detail, he has a very specific recipe for number and direction of strokes crossw
ise of the stone, and the portion of stone to use, followed by equally detailed 
specifications for lengthwise strokes.
> 
> FWIW
> Don
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234549 zacharydillinger@g... 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

234560 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Of course it is! But the hue and cry is always that, "I need this stone to do (i
nsert your phrase here). So I must spend endless hours flattening and perfecting
 it for that use." The stones are collected as interesting artifacts, not becaus
e of need. And using the stone after perfecting it destroys the perfection. Has 
anyone wondered why old used stones are always dished? Because they were used, a
nd the owner didn't know he was supposed to flatten it.

On Nov 21, 2012, at 5:40 AM, Cliff Rohrabacher Esq. wrote:

> On 11/21/2012 1:56 AM, James Thompson wrote:
>> >> The skill is not in the tool. I have personally never seen an old plane or
 chisel which had a flat back when I found it. That says to me that this need fo
r perfection that we feel was not felt by the old timers. It is fairly new, and 
it tells me that people today have too much time and too much money, or they wou
ldn't even consider such things.
> 
> 
> HA HA HA HA the delta between vocation and hobby I suspect.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234555 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On Nov 21, 2012, at 1:56 AM, James Thompson wrote:

> But why would you start out with old stones?
Just to lighten this up a bit - I recently acquired a very interesting
"stone". It is inset into a wooden box with a lid, and has a 1" or so
hole drilled next to it (for tallow?). The base of the box is about 3"
tall. The shape of the stone is not rectangular but more or less an oval
shape. It is obviously old, but what drew me to it was the "1817" carved
into the top. The hinges, the amount of oil and swarf (great word), the
patina - everything points to that date being accurate. When I picked up
the box, it seemed awfully heavy. After checking it out, I lifted the
stone out of its recess, only to find that it really is a "stone". It is
half of a baseball shape and the recess fits it very tightly. So someone
found an appropriate rock, split it in half, flattened it, then built a
box for it.

By the way, it is pretty darn flat By the way, I use SStm

Ed Minch

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234558 "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." <rohrabacher@e...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
To pile on with oil stone information:
I have found that motor oil ends up depositing a waxy clog to the 
stone's surface  after some time.  So I tried a can of cheap store 
brand  Tranny Fluid which is highly detergent and the problem went away 
and the fluid cleaned up my stones.
Mineral oil is nice too.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234559 "Cliff Rohrabacher Esq." <rohrabacher@e...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On 11/21/2012 1:56 AM, James Thompson wrote:
> > The skill is not in the tool. I have personally never seen an old plane or c
hisel which had a flat back when I found it. That says to me that this need for 
perfection that we feel was not felt by the old timers. It is fairly new, and it
 tells me that people today have too much time and too much money, or they would
n't even consider such things.

HA HA HA HA the delta between vocation and hobby I suspect.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234564 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On diamond stones to flatten other abrasive stones

On 2012-11-20 20:21, Joshua Clark wrote:
> I keep my waterstones flat with a 220 grit DMT stone, a good
> multi-takser that I also use for the first stages of  sharpening and
> lapping. It only takes a few swipes each time I use my stones- maybe
> 10 seconds at most.

Diamonds actually shatter the particles of the other abrasive. While 
this process may dislodge some particles, those it does not dislodge it 
shatters. Breaking off the tips.

This has an interesting result. When you break off the tip of an 
abrasive particle, almost all the time the resulting particle is duller. 
The upward facing point has a larger included angle.

   http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/Fig%2003.18.jpg

 From Samuels, showing how abrasive grit fractures. In all three cases 
the new tip is blunter than the old tip.

The larger the included angle the greater the stress (force) when the 
grit particle abrades the metal surface. The greater the stress the 
greater the resulting dislocation of the crystal matrix. The weaker the 
metal. The faster your tool will dull.

Diamond is unusual in this regard. Most other ways of flattening will 
dislodge grits, not fracture them, because the second surface is not so 
much harder than the stone you are flattening. In the case of flattening 
on cement, the second surface is softer and will almost always dislodge 
grits rather than fracture them.

Waterstones have a soft binder - grits are more likely to dislodge 
rather than fracture. The harder the binder the more likely you are to 
get fracturing.

The tips also fracture during use of course, so there is some dulling of 
the abrasive. With sheet abrasives, there may only be one layer of grit 
particles. Once they get dull, time for a new sheet. With stones, 
getting one with a good balance between binder hardness which allows 
duller grits (which because they exert more pressure are more likely to 
pop out) to pop out refreshing the surface, is the key. Too soft, even 
sharp grits pop out. Too hard, too many dull grits.

Brent
-- 
Victoria, B.C., Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234565 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
Ummmmmmm Guys
  The diamond plates are basically glorified sandpaper.
They last longer than sandpaper of course, but from the very first use 
(when they do work fantastically well)
  they work less well with every single use until they are just dull 
pebbles glued to a plate.

  I simply can't imagine how quickly they dull cutting carborundum or 
even india? You can buy new stones and throw them away when they dish 
for less than $200.

  You do need to find trowled cement as opposed to rough to reflatten 
your stones. But that is all.  Fairly smooth cement.

  Stay away from the microscope examining your stone surface!!
   You freak. Good enough is good enough. Go find something better to do 
with your time, weenie.
   How about you quit squinting at nothing and show me a barrel of 
shavings maybe?

Oh PS, I clean my stone every time, before I use it.
  Mineral oil or baby oil. Then wipe dry!
   I don't sharpen anything in a gush of slop.
  Clean and dry gets it done!

If the work goes on long enough, the stone will load up and I will clean 
again in the middle,
   but I wipe dry with a rag after.

  I have seen people sharpening in an actual lake of slop, whether water 
or oil.
  I can't imagine.  Yuck

  You don't have to work that way. I am walking proof, 40 years, you 
don't have to.
   yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234566 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
I keep a gallon of diesel fuel around for general parts washing, and I pour a li
ttle MMO into some of it to lube my stones. Just enough to make it pink so I kno
w what it is. I don't like oil alone because my tools tend to float on the oil. 
I use a speay bottle to apply the diesel, and I wipe the dross off often. I alwa
ys clean my stones when I am done.

On Nov 21, 2012, at 9:29 AM, John Holladay wrote:

> A year or so ago, I started using Marvel Mystery Oil on my oil stones.  My
> only criteria were, 1)  It is a thin viscosity oil (mostly transmission
> fluid) and 2) it smells nice (kind of minty).  It costs a little more, but
> it is used in such small quantities it really doesn't matter.  Finally, it
> works, it keeps my stones clean and they smell good.  What more could you
> ask for.
> 
> Doc
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Cliff Rohrabacher Esq. <
> rohrabacher@e...> wrote:
> 
>> To pile on with oil stone information:
>> I have found that motor oil ends up depositing a waxy clog to the stone's
>> surface  after some time.  So I tried a can of cheap store brand  Tranny
>> Fluid which is highly detergent and the problem went away and the fluid
>> cleaned up my stones.
>> Mineral oil is nice too.
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>> ------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> 
>> To change your subscription options:
>> >> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/**mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> To read the FAQ:
>> >> http://swingleydev.com/**archive/faq.html
>> 
>> >> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/**archive/
>> 
>> OldTools@r...**edu 
>> >> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/**mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Holladay
> DocHolladay0820@g...
> 205-229-8484
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234562 John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
A year or so ago, I started using Marvel Mystery Oil on my oil stones.  My
only criteria were, 1)  It is a thin viscosity oil (mostly transmission
fluid) and 2) it smells nice (kind of minty).  It costs a little more, but
it is used in such small quantities it really doesn't matter.  Finally, it
works, it keeps my stones clean and they smell good.  What more could you
ask for.

Doc

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Cliff Rohrabacher Esq. <
rohrabacher@e...> wrote:

> To pile on with oil stone information:
> I have found that motor oil ends up depositing a waxy clog to the stone's
> surface  after some time.  So I tried a can of cheap store brand  Tranny
> Fluid which is highly detergent and the problem went away and the fluid
> cleaned up my stones.
> Mineral oil is nice too.
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> ------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/**mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/**archive/faq.html
>
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/**archive/
>
> OldTools@r...**edu 
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/**mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234557 Mark Fortune <sparkler@e...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Here's how I prepare before an old tool auction (seriously!) First I
picture my wife in a really stunning dress=85. Then I picture that same
dress hanging in the local charity shop window with a 1.50c price tag
(cause thats where it will end up in a few months) I tell my wife she
looks beautiful no matter what she wears Put a bit of change in the poor
box Now I'm ready to bid! On 21 Nov 2012, at 02:08, Steve Fravel
 wrote:

> On Wed, 2012-11-21 at 00:54 +0000, Mark Fortune wrote:
>>> If I don't spend the money - the wife will!!
>> That right there is probably some of the best and most
>> relevant, to my
> situation at least, non-directly tool-related advice I've seen here on
> the porch. Thank you. I'll remember it next time I'm sitting on the
> fence regarding the purchase of an old tool.
>> -- Steve
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234572 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
OOOOOHH! OOOOHH! I have a wonderful suggestion for kitchen knives. I have one of
 those diamond coated rods that looks like a knife burnisher with a handle. I us
e it to put an edge on my kitchen knives, and I follow it with a burnisher.

I never liked using stones on large kitchen knives, as it is cumbersome to me. T
he diamond sharpening rod is fast and it gets every bit of the blade sharp, almo
st like magic.

This is very important to me because no matter how much I whine and cry, SWMBO w
ill always put a knife in the sink as soon as she is finished using it. This inv
ariable dulls the knife, at least for me. She seems oblivious to a knife being d
ull, but I just can't use one unless it is SHARP!!! And I know without a doubt t
hat every time I pick one up it will be dull. But I can fix that quickly and eas
ily. It's easier than doing battle.

On Nov 21, 2012, at 11:50 AM, John Ruth wrote:

> 
> GG's
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.
> 
> 
> 
> > The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste & odor 
so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the daylights out
 of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil smell off of it.
> 
> 
> 
> > So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to thin it
 with.  
> 
> 
> 
> > Then again, perhaps I am merely depriving myself of an excuse to own two set
s of stones, one set for the shop and one set for the kitchen. 
> 
> 
> 
> > And, as an aside, I learned long ago that fooling around with aerosol cans t
hat have lost their spray head is a recipe for comic outcomes that aren't gong t
o seem particularly funny when they happen.  DAMHIKT !!!
> 
> 
> 
> John Ruth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 		 	   		  -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234567 Ken Shepard <waruba@c...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
 After finding a couple cans of Marvel Mystery Oil while cleaning out my
FIL's shop, I began using it as a sharpening lube, though I mix it 50/50
with kerosene to make it a bit thinner.   I guess that ruins the good smell
advantage.  Seems to work better than most other oils in keeping swarf in
suspension and the stone cutting freely.

For an activity that should be relatively simple and non-controversial,
sharpening certainly engenders a wide variety of opinions.

Ken Shepard

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 12:29 PM, John Holladay
wrote:

> A year or so ago, I started using Marvel Mystery Oil on my oil stones.  My
> only criteria were, 1)  It is a thin viscosity oil (mostly transmission
> fluid) and 2) it smells nice (kind of minty).  It costs a little more, but
> it is used in such small quantities it really doesn't matter.  Finally, it
> works, it keeps my stones clean and they smell good.  What more could you
> ask for.
>
> Doc
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234568 nicknaylo@a... 2012‑11‑21 Re: Re: Flattening Benchstones
I use WD-40, One of the cans that lost the spray top to so its just
thelittle white tube sticking out of the can. Press that tube down
ontothe stone and a mostly full can of WD-40 doesn't have to be
thrown out.

Michael S

 -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 -

234575 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
I am pretty sure the diamonds on my stick are 400 grit. Anyway they are fast. I 
will ever worry about running out of kitchen knives because I started collecting
 good ones way back when, and I have enough for several lifetimes.

I would feel differently if I only had a few, then I'd be babying them.

On Nov 21, 2012, at 2:32 PM, John Holladay wrote:

> > My personal favorite way to sharpen (or at least hone) knives is a ceramic s
tick followed by a sharpening steel or burnisher. 
>  
> Doc
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:50 PM, James Thompson  wrote:
> > OOOOOHH! OOOOHH! I have a wonderful suggestion for kitchen knives. I have on
e of those diamond coated rods that looks like a knife burnisher with a handle. 
I use it to put an edge on my kitchen knives, and I follow it with a burnisher.
> 
> > I never liked using stones on large kitchen knives, as it is cumbersome to m
e. The diamond sharpening rod is fast and it gets every bit of the blade sharp, 
almost like magic.
> 
> > This is very important to me because no matter how much I whine and cry, SWM
BO will always put a knife in the sink as soon as she is finished using it. This
 invariable dulls the knife, at least for me. She seems oblivious to a knife bei
ng dull, but I just can't use one unless it is SHARP!!! And I know without a dou
bt that every time I pick one up it will be dull. But I can fix that quickly and
 easily. It's easier than doing battle.
> 
> 
> On Nov 21, 2012, at 11:50 AM, John Ruth wrote:
> 
> >
> > GG's
> >
> >
> >
> > Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.
> >
> >
> >
> > > The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste & odo
r so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the daylights o
ut of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil smell off of it.
> >
> >
> >
> > > So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to thin 
it with.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Then again, perhaps I am merely depriving myself of an excuse to own two s
ets of stones, one set for the shop and one set for the kitchen.
> >
> >
> >
> > > And, as an aside, I learned long ago that fooling around with aerosol cans
 that have lost their spray head is a recipe for comic outcomes that aren't gong
 to seem particularly funny when they happen.  DAMHIKT !!!
> >
> >
> >
> > John Ruth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >                                         ----------------------------------
--------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> >
> > OldTools@r...
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Holladay
> DocHolladay0820@g...
> 205-229-8484

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234570 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2012‑11‑21 RE: Flattening Benchstones
GG's


Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.


The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste &
odor so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the
daylights out of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil
smell off of it.


So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to
thin it with.

Then again=2C perhaps I am merely depriving myself of an excuse to own
two sets of stones=2C one set for the shop and one set for the kitchen.

And=2C as an aside=2C I learned long ago that fooling around with
aerosol cans that have lost their spray head is a recipe for comic
outcomes that aren't gong to seem particularly funny when they happen.
DAMHIKT !!!


John Ruth


                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------------------------
                                          ------------

234574 John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
My personal favorite way to sharpen (or at least hone) knives is a ceramic
stick followed by a sharpening steel or burnisher.

Doc

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 3:50 PM, James Thompson  wrote:

> OOOOOHH! OOOOHH! I have a wonderful suggestion for kitchen knives. I have
> one of those diamond coated rods that looks like a knife burnisher with a
> handle. I use it to put an edge on my kitchen knives, and I follow it with
> a burnisher.
>
> I never liked using stones on large kitchen knives, as it is cumbersome to
> me. The diamond sharpening rod is fast and it gets every bit of the blade
> sharp, almost like magic.
>
> This is very important to me because no matter how much I whine and cry,
> SWMBO will always put a knife in the sink as soon as she is finished using
> it. This invariable dulls the knife, at least for me. She seems oblivious
> to a knife being dull, but I just can't use one unless it is SHARP!!! And I
> know without a doubt that every time I pick one up it will be dull. But I
> can fix that quickly and easily. It's easier than doing battle.
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2012, at 11:50 AM, John Ruth wrote:
>
> >
> > GG's
> >
> >
> >
> > Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.
> >
> >
> >
> > The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste &
> odor so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the
> daylights out of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil smell
> off of it.
> >
> >
> >
> > So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to
> thin it with.
> >
> >
> >
> > Then again, perhaps I am merely depriving myself of an excuse to own two
> sets of stones, one set for the shop and one set for the kitchen.
> >
> >
> >
> > And, as an aside, I learned long ago that fooling around with aerosol
> cans that have lost their spray head is a recipe for comic outcomes that
> aren't gong to seem particularly funny when they happen.  DAMHIKT !!!
> >
> >
> >
> > John Ruth
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> >
> > OldTools@r...
> > http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234573 Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On Nov 21, 2012, at 4:50 PM, James Thompson  wrote:

> > OOOOOHH! OOOOHH! I have a wonderful suggestion for kitchen knives. I have on
e of those diamond coated rods that looks like a knife burnisher with a handle. 
I use it to put an edge on my kitchen knives, and I follow it with a burnisher.
> 
> > I never liked using stones on large kitchen knives, as it is cumbersome to m
e. The diamond sharpening rod is fast and it gets every bit of the blade sharp, 
almost like magic.

I prefer a ceramic rod. They remove less material but get the knives just as sha
rp. Once every year or two the knives go to the shop for a rework on the stones.

Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234578 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Do sinks dull knives?

On 2012-11-21 13:50, James Thompson wrote:
> This is very important to me because no matter how much I whine and
> cry, SWMBO will always put a knife in the sink as soon as she is
> finished using it. This invariable dulls the knife, at least for me.
> She seems oblivious to a knife being dull, but I just can't use one
> unless it is SHARP!!! And I know without a doubt that every time I

What part of putting the knife in the sink is causing it to dull?

Are these high carbon steel or stainless.

IMHO the thing most likely to dull a kitchen knife is the cutting board.

Worst possible, with knife blade vertical, edge on board, sweep the 
chopped veges off the board into a bowl.

Bamboo contains a lot of retained silica. Bamboo cutting boards can be 
quite abrasive on knives. You could use it as a hone, perhaps. I do use 
a bamboo cutting board but don't draw the knife across the board either 
along or across the edge.

What could your wife be doing in the sink with a knife that would affect 
the edge?

And, no, I cannot imagine you whining and crying.

Brent
-- 
Victoria, B.C., Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234581 Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Brent:
Thanks! Your posts never fail to challenge & inform!

On 11/21/2012 10:49 AM, Brent Beach wrote:
> On diamond stones to flatten other abrasive stones
>
> On 2012-11-20 20:21, Joshua Clark wrote:
>> I keep my waterstones flat with a 220 grit DMT stone, a good

>
> The larger the included angle the greater the stress (force) when the 
> grit particle abrades the metal surface. The greater the stress the 
> greater the resulting dislocation of the crystal matrix. The weaker 
> the metal. The faster your tool will dull.
>
I don't understand that. I would have thought that particles with larger 
included angles would exert lower pressure (assuming a constant force 
over a larger area), and sharpen less effectively.
Please elaborate.

> Diamond is unusual in this regard. Most other ways of flattening will 
> dislodge grits, not fracture them, because the second surface is not 
> so much harder than the stone you are flattening. In the case of 
> flattening on cement, the second surface is softer and will almost 
> always dislodge grits rather than fracture them.
>
> Waterstones have a soft binder - grits are more likely to dislodge 
> rather than fracture. The harder the binder the more likely you are to 
> get fracturing.
>

So diamond stones might be good for conditioning some waterstones, but 
will actually damage hard oilstones and other stones with a harder matrix?

Don
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234582 Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> 2012‑11‑21 Re: Flattening Benchstones
On 11/21/2012 12:50 PM, John Ruth wrote:
> GG's
>
>   
>
> Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.
>
>   
>
> > The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste & odor 
so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the daylights out
 of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil smell off of it.
>
>   
>
> > So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to thin it
 with.
>
Two thoughts.
1. keep the stone(s) warm (my preferred option) OR (based on Bob 
Flexner's explanation of petroleum-distillate solvents)
2. thin it with naptha, mineral spirits or kerosene (naptha being the 
most volatile, kerosene the least)

FWIW
Don

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234583 "Dave Nighswander" <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2012‑11‑22 Re: Flattening Benchstones
Snip
From: Brent Beach
Do sinks dull knives?

On 2012-11-21 13:50, James Thompson wrote:
> This is very important to me because no matter how much I whine and
> cry, SWMBO will always put a knife in the sink as soon as she is
> finished using it. This invariable dulls the knife, What part of putting 
> the knife in the sink is causing it to dull?
Unsnip

Snip
What could your wife be doing in the sink with a knife that would affect
the edge?
Unsnip
Piling them up on each other. Steel on steel on porcelain. If the knife is 
hard it chips, if it's soft it dulls. Saw blades or butter knives either one 
is less than it is supposed to be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

234584 "Dave Nighswander" <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2012‑11‑22 Re: Flattening Benchstones
In a previous life I polished draw dies with slip stones and kerosene as the 
lubricant/cleaner. We started using scented lamp oil and never went back to 
straight kero. I still do the occasional polish on a piece with lamp oil. 
Don't tell SWMBO where it keeps going.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Don Schwartz
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:04 AM
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Flattening Benchstones

On 11/21/2012 12:50 PM, John Ruth wrote:
> GG's
>
>
> Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.
>
>
> The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste & 
> odor so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the 
> daylights out of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil 
> smell off of it.
>
>
> So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to thin 
> it with.
>
Two thoughts.
1. keep the stone(s) warm (my preferred option) OR (based on Bob
Flexner's explanation of petroleum-distillate solvents)
2. thin it with naptha, mineral spirits or kerosene (naptha being the
most volatile, kerosene the least)

FWIW
Don

------------------------------------------------------------------------

234586 James Thompson <oldmillrat@m...> 2012‑11‑22 Re: Flattening Benchstones
My understanding is that lamp oil is kerosene, as is diesel. Kerosene is sold as
 a lot of different things. It was once known as coal oil, and was once used as 
a medicine for various skin remedies, as well as constipation. Very versatile st
uff.

On Nov 21, 2012, at 10:36 PM, Dave Nighswander wrote:

> > In a previous life I polished draw dies with slip stones and kerosene as the
 lubricant/cleaner. We started using scented lamp oil and never went back to str
aight kero. I still do the occasional polish on a piece with lamp oil. Don't tel
l SWMBO where it keeps going.
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Don Schwartz
> Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:04 AM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Flattening Benchstones
> 
> On 11/21/2012 12:50 PM, John Ruth wrote:
>> GG's
>> 
>> 
>> Somebody asked "What more could one ask for?" in an oilstone lubricant.
>> 
>> 
>> >> The missing qualtity is non-toxicity and freedom from clinging taste & odo
r so that one might stone a kitchen knife without having to wash the daylights o
ut of it afterward to get that WD-40 or Marvel Mystery Oil smell off of it.
>> 
>> 
>> >> So the idea choice is thinned mineral oil. I'm just not sure what to thin 
it with.
>> 
> Two thoughts.
> 1. keep the stone(s) warm (my preferred option) OR (based on Bob
> Flexner's explanation of petroleum-distillate solvents)
> 2. thin it with naptha, mineral spirits or kerosene (naptha being the
> most volatile, kerosene the least)
> 
> FWIW
> Don
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

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