OldTools Archive
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233679 | "Blake Ashley" <Blake.Ashley@t...> | 2012‑10‑11 | old tool wiki |
I think Adam's idea of an oldtool wiki is excellent. Blake ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233683 | CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
I don't know if spam-fighting tools for wikis are any better now than they were back when I tried it (for another topic) but fighting automated link spam will bring wiki contributors to their knees. Wikis need to live on servers, require bandwidth, administrators (and most of all contributors/editors) to become a knowledge repository. They can begin with enthusiasm and die with neglect just like any other web entity, including listservs. Sorry to be a Debbie-Downer, but a dose of realism might be doing everyone a favor... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233696 | Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
An additional difference between a wiki and a faq. Usually a faq is owned by someone - a person who adds stuff and updates the single file. A wiki is a nest of web pages that all relate to a topic. Anyone - perhaps from a list of members - can update any page any time. Wikipedia is the biggest wiki, but there are wikis for many other areas. For example, anyone on old tools with an interest in metal spinning could build a few pages on that within the wiki. All the topics we discuss on old tools could gradually migrate into the wiki and people would go to the wiki before asking a question. Each wiki page can have an associated discussion and issues pages - where people hash out how best to present the material. It is an online mechanism that allows a geographically separate group of people to collaborate on a project. Brent On 2012-10-11 14:01, Bill Taggart wrote: > > On 10/11/2012 4:29 PM, Zachary Dillinger wrote: >> For those of us who are prematurely old and afraid of technology, can >> someone explain exactly what a "wiki" is and how it differs from a >> good old fashioned FAQ? > > A FAQ typically provides answers to "frequently asked questions" about > the forum/mailing list/website itself. It's sort of a beginner's/users > guide to what the forum/mailing list/website is all about and how to use > it. > > A wiki is a repository of accumulated information and more encyclopedic, > to be used as a reference source. It's more of an agglomeration of > accumulated knowledge on the subject matter. > > - Bill T. > - Who thinks a lot of these issues would be neatly answered by going to > a forum format, but who also knows there are a lot of list members who > are strongly against that... -- Victoria, B.C., Canada ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233686 | WesG <wesg@g...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
... Especially now that phone/camera/email is so common. Not for everyone... I know. But it's very common. Wes On Oct 11, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Matthew Groves |
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233694 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
On 10/11/2012 2:29 PM, Zachary Dillinger wrote: > For those of us who are prematurely old and afraid of technology, can > someone explain exactly what a "wiki" is and how it differs from a > good old fashioned FAQ? > -- > Zachary Dillinger > |
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233681 | Matthew Groves <Matthew.Groves@c...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
I sure wish we could get pictures straightened out before a wiki. A wiki is a fantastic idea, but involves some of the same hurdles encountered with other oldtools communication aspects. Not wanting to rehash the ol plaintext email debate, but also wondering how much it holds us back. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO On Oct 11, 2012, at 2:57 PM, "Blake Ashley" |
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233682 | Anthony Seo <tonyseo@p...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
At 04:09 PM 10/11/2012, Matthew Groves wrote: >I sure wish we could get pictures straightened out before a wiki. A >wiki is a fantastic idea, but involves some of the same hurdles >encountered with other oldtools communication aspects. > >Not wanting to rehash the ol plaintext email debate, but also >wondering how much it holds us back. Well there is the issue that if you allow photos then you have to allow any sort of attachment and that opens the door to all kinds of nasties. Plus there is the issue of extra traffic and band-width on the server. We have been blessed with having a free hosting server for the list that is on in a fairly stable environment thanks to one of the list's founders and well, one can't ask for much more than than. Plus I prefer the text format for all of my emails. Ebay just added the ability for sellers to send pics in messages but I would have to turn on HTML messaging which I do not want to do. Tony (color me a dinosaur or anything else that you want) Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233684 | Zachary Dillinger <zacharydillinger@g...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
For those of us who are prematurely old and afraid of technology, can someone explain exactly what a "wiki" is and how it differs from a good old fashioned FAQ? -- Zachary Dillinger The Eaton County Joinery www.theeatoncountyjoinery.com 517-231-3374 On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Blake Ashley |
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233690 | Bill Taggart <w.taggart@v...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
On 10/11/2012 4:29 PM, Zachary Dillinger wrote: > For those of us who are prematurely old and afraid of technology, can > someone explain exactly what a "wiki" is and how it differs from a > good old fashioned FAQ? A FAQ typically provides answers to "frequently asked questions" about the forum/mailing list/website itself. It's sort of a beginner's/users guide to what the forum/mailing list/website is all about and how to use it. A wiki is a repository of accumulated information and more encyclopedic, to be used as a reference source. It's more of an agglomeration of accumulated knowledge on the subject matter. - Bill T. - Who thinks a lot of these issues would be neatly answered by going to a forum format, but who also knows there are a lot of list members who are strongly against that... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233691 | Bill Taggart <w.taggart@v...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
On 10/11/2012 4:25 PM, Anthony Seo wrote: > At 04:09 PM 10/11/2012, Matthew Groves wrote: >> I sure wish we could get pictures straightened out before a wiki. A >> wiki is a fantastic idea, but involves some of the same hurdles >> encountered with other oldtools communication aspects. >> >> Not wanting to rehash the ol plaintext email debate, but also >> wondering how much it holds us back. > > Well there is the issue that if you allow photos then you have to > allow any sort of attachment and that opens the door to all kinds of > nasties. > I guess I'm not clear on what the problem is with photos. I post my pics on Photobucket, which is free and very easy to use, and then I can post links to the photos here. There also are other free photo hosting sites that work essentially the same way. - Bill T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233704 | James Pickering <jp29@c...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
I don't contribute very often here so my name is probably unfamiliar to most of you. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding these days relating to the compo sition and functioning of online Message Boards and Forums. There are several ex cellent iterations of these implementations that are free and allow unlimited us e (i.e. without regard to band width). Of course they are free because you grant the providers permission to insert related advertising banners at their conveni ence. It has been my experience that the ads these days are neither excessive or overly obtrusive. If you don't want the ads you have to pay a monthly fee -- it s TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). I have operated free me ssage Boards/Forums during the past few years with nary a problem. These Message Boards and Forums offer full feature editing, BB code or HTML form atting, inclusion of images .... and so on. Problems encountered in initiating t hese facilities include: finding an Administrator who has the time and knowledg e to make them tick and keep them going (old fogey retirees with some computer m oxy are ideal) - a couple or so Moderators (to cover international time zones) t o delete the inevitable porn posts or other nasties - AND ENOUGH ONGOING PARTICI PATION - otherwise they die on the vine. Anyway, I have set up a dummy free Message Board: http://members.boardhost.com/jamesicus/ And a dummy free Forum: http://jpf.boardhost.com/index.php So that you can see what they look like. Play around with them - test features: you cant hurt anything - ask questions here - I will answer them to the best of my ability. James http://jp29.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233709 | James Pickering <jp29@c...> | 2012‑10‑11 | RE: Re: old tool wiki |
---- Micah Salb |
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233710 | James Pickering <jp29@c...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
As I replied to Micah: Sure, so if that's a problem for the using community it shouldn't use them. Again, TANSTAAFL. I am just trying to point out what is out there these days -- I am not attemptin g to promote or advocate. James ---- Joshua Clark |
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233701 | Steve Fravel <cocobolo@s...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
On Thu, 2012-10-11 at 15:31 -0700, Brent Beach wrote: > All the topics we discuss on old tools could gradually migrate into the > wiki and people would go to the wiki before asking a question. I've often thought something like an OldTools wiki would be a good project. Not for me to set up, though; someone with some technical abilities in the computer field would surely be far more successful in that endeavor. But I've also thought, just as often, that having the collective wisdom of the porch-sitters distilled into a wiki could possibly have the unintended and undesired effect of killing participation in the porch, especially by newcomers. I'm especially thinking of my approach to resolving computer problems. I use Linux and I'm far from being a computer geek. When I don't know how to do something, what do I do? Usually I bring up Google, type in a few words related to my problem, and (almost) instantly the results pop up. A quick scan of the search results and I find, usually in a forum, the answer to my question. The problem has already been encountered, discussed, resolved, and documented on some online forum. No participation, no human interaction, no getting to know the people on the forum is necessary on my part. That's precisely what I'm afraid of should we do a wiki. I know that some of the old timers here on the porch probably get a bit tired of the same old questions popping up over and over again. I believe that the recent thread about the Leachmeister and the "Where did so many of the original Galoots go" question at least briefly speaks to that. I suppose that a computer support forum that has 500,000+ members really doesn't want or need to have the same questions posed in the forum time after time. That's a tremendous amount of bandwidth to waste/pay for. And on many of the support forums one often sees the poor guy who makes the mistake of asking a question deemed too simple derided unmercifully by the "elite" members of the forum. But we're a much smaller group, a niche group, if you will. Really, IMHO, it is a combination of the polite answering of the same old questions, the idle chatter, the humor, the delightfully eloquent prose of some of our members, the very real human interaction that we have here on the porch that makes it what it is. And what it is is a very special thing. I can't imagine any of the huge forums having anything even close to a Galootaclaus event. Or FMM. Or flea market/auction/estate sale reports and the associated gloating and the inevitable "You suck" comments. Or the wonderful civility and lack of flame wars that we have. Now please don't anyone interpret all this to mean that I'm opposed to the idea of a wiki, or to any changes to the list. Really, a lot of really neat and positive changes could be made. Perhaps they could be made in such a way that the list itself doesn't change; it merely gets expanded to take advantage of newer technologies for those who are comfortable with it. But I'd like to go on record that I think any changes ought to be carefully thought out. We have something very special here and I'd hate to see it lost to "progress". Solo mis dos centavos, compadres... -- Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233714 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
On Oct 11, 2012, at 19:46 , Joshua Clark |
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233702 | John Leyden <leydenjl@g...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: old tool wiki |
As Aristotle famously wrote a couple of thousand years ago, "There's nothing new under the sun." That truth has never stopped those who followed from talking and learning, then forgetting, and talking and learning all over again. I suppose The Old Tools List will be no different and I don't mind one bit, wiki or no wiki. To my mind the essential difference between a wiki and the current archive search function is that some one or more people will have in essence compiled an encyclopedia, replete with index, from the content of all those past discussions. That's nice, but.... wouldn't you rather be in your workshop building something tangible with wood or metal? We now return to our regular programming. Old Tools content: today I found a Stanley 750 3/4-inch socket chisel quite literally laying on a Manhattan sidewalk. No handle, no rust, and just the business end. It had once even been lapped and hollow ground. With a little TLC this gem will be back in working condition just in time for Galootaclaus. JL---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
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233712 | Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
On 10/11/2012 8:40 PM, Micah Salb wrote: > > But the problem with online message boards is that you have to go there. Wi th list-serves, the emails come right to you. > > Micah > > Exactly. Like subscribing to any service. Decide once, and it keeps on coming. Forgetting ain't an option. You can quickly pick and choose which posts you wish to read, and which to skip over. With a forum it's all in your face all of the time. And just another place to surf. my C$.02 Don -- "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." Christopher Hitchens, 2007 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233708 | Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> | 2012‑10‑11 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
Micah summarizes what I've been trying to put into words all day. The OT list is an (antiquated but fully functional) example of a "push" technology in which the content is delivered to you while forums and other venues require you to "pull" the content. The list is the way it is for a reason and it works well. I participate in both and appreciate them for different reasons. I submit that there are a number (I can think of five offhand) of fully- fledged, active, and vibrant woodworking forums out there with hand-tool specific areas, each with its on unique look and feel. These forums allow for inserting pictures in posts, buying and selling tools, and offer moderation to keep off-topic chatter to a minimum. Yet, we all choose to say here on the Porch. It's always interested me that there is very little cross-pollination between the various forums and the Porch.=20 Josh On Oct 11, 2012, at 10:40 PM, Micah Salb wrote: > But the problem with online message boards is that you have to go > there. With list-serves, the emails come right to you. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233713 | Anthony Seo <tonyseo@p...> | 2012‑10‑11 | RE: Re: old tool wiki |
At 10:40 PM 10/11/2012, Micah Salb wrote: >But the problem with online message boards is that you have to go >there. With list-serves, the emails come right to you. Amen! I have seen other lists migrate from email format to boards and they either wither and die or only appeal to the hard core. Plus, those boards tend to get overly fragmented by topic and it get's intimidating both to manage and to follow. Plus many of those boards are under constant attack from spammers and hackers. Yahoo has one foot in the grave, there are only two of the re-enacting groups on there that ever get any traffic and I moderate a couple of others dealing with that topic and rarely do they get used other than for spam. It's takes time to moderate users, if you got on auto accept, then you get the spammers again. IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T LOOK FOR AN EXCUSE TO MAKE IT BROKE! And I can guarantee that if someone can't figure out how to upload a picture to Flickr or any one of the other photo sharing sites out there, they sure as heck ain't gonna know how to use photo software to edit and resize pics. Tony (on the soap box late tonight..good thing there is whiskey within reach...) Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233705 | Micah Salb <msalb@l...> | 2012‑10‑12 | RE: Re: old tool wiki |
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233707 | Micah Salb <msalb@l...> | 2012‑10‑12 | RE: Re: old tool wiki |
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233715 | Micah Salb <msalb@l...> | 2012‑10‑12 | RE: old tool wiki |
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233733 | "Blake Ashley" <Blake.Ashley@t...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
IMHO, the old too list is fine as it. I would like to see an associated wiki because the archives of the list and the brains of the Galoots contain a mind-boggling amount of otherwise lost lore that needs to be distilled and preserved in one place for the benefit of posterity. A book would be best, but that is a daunting task for one person. So a wiki may be the best way. Blake ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233729 | <roygriggs@c...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: old tool wiki |
Build it and they will come.... -- roy griggs roygriggs@c... ---- Ken Shepard |
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233727 | Ken Shepard <waruba@c...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: old tool wiki |
The discussion seems to have wandered off a bit. As Adam says, the original suggestion was not to replace the list with a wiki or forum format, but to someway capture the knowledge contained in the archives and minds of current users in a format that is easily accessible. I don't want the list to change one bit, but it would be great to have a place where we all could pool our collective knowledge and photos of old tools. Ken Shepard On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:19 PM, Adam R. Maxwell |
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233731 | Bill Taggart <w.taggart@v...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
On 10/11/2012 10:40 PM, Micah Salb wrote: > > But the problem with online message boards is that you have to go there. Wi th list-serves, the emails come right to you. Every forum of which I am a member (several) have the ability for you to subscribe to threads so that you receive any new messages in your in-box and also to subscribe to forum sections to receive a notification any time a new topic is posted. Then all you need to do is click a link and there you are. - Bill T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233732 | Bill Taggart <w.taggart@v...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
On 10/11/2012 10:46 PM, Joshua Clark wrote: > > I submit that there are a number (I can think of five offhand) of fully-fled ged, active, and vibrant woodworking forums out there with hand-tool specific ar eas, each with its on unique look and feel. These forums allow for inserting pic tures in posts, buying and selling tools, and offer moderation to keep off-topic chatter to a minimum. Yet, we all choose to say here on the Porch. It's always interested me that there is very little cross-pollination between the various fo rums and the Porch. > By the same token, I also know we have lost a couple of former regular participants here to those other forums. Todd Hughes comes to mind. He used to be a very regular (and entertaining) participant here, but I haven't seen a thing from him here in a long time - yet he is a regular at one of those other forums to which you refer. - Bill T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233756 | Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: old tool wiki |
Jesse, On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Jesse Walker |
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233752 | Jesse Walker <jwalker147@h...> | 2012‑10‑12 | Re: old tool wiki |
One disadvantage to the archives is that links contained in them are often broken. I was going to send an email to ask about the proper technique to using a router plane (I have both a Miller Falls and a Lie-Nielsen), as I was having problems with the chip curling up into the joint between the blade and the holder for the blade, but refrained from asking for fear that it had been posted before. I searched the archives for "router plane" and came back with many posts that had broken links, like a review on Lee Valley's router plane, pictures of a handmade scraper for the router plane, etc. Would a compromise be a better way of archiving the emails? Is it hard to write a script to grab pictures from the links in an email and save the actual file, and not just the link, in the archive? Should we make instructions to standardize how we post pictures, or have a couple of options, to make it easier to write said script? I use gmail for my emailing (I have it pull from my hotmail), and it has a "labs gadget" that automatically displays picture previews linked to picasa and flickr, and imbeds youtube videos that are linked. I don't know if you could steal the script from them, or use another google application to "archive the archive." Another invaluable benefit of the Porch that I haven't seen mentioned, is the use it has when I can show my wife the *daily* digest of 10-50+ emails, and say, "look, I'm not the only one!!" Jesse ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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233761 | Peter <p-j-h@w...> | 2012‑10‑13 | Re: Re: old tool wiki |
Yeah, sure I'd like to go out with her but my 66 year old wife of 43 years might object. And that too is one very good reason to stick with the Old Tools format. NO Adve rtising!! Cheers PeterH in Perth .......................... Anyway, I have set up a dummy free Message Board: http://members.boardhost.com/jamesicus/ And a dummy free Forum: http://jpf.boardhost.com/index.php So that you can see what they look like. Play around with them ------------------------------------------------------------------------ |
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