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150673 Jack Kamishlian <kamishlian@g...> 2005‑10‑03 Face vise
GGs,

Thanks to a suggestion of one of you on the list, I finally made a
face vise to mount in the Record vise on my workbench.  I used a Lee
Valley's "press screw" ($16.95).  It seemed kind of light weight, but
in retrospect, it does the job. I looked at their shoulder vise screw,
and it was way too heavy.  Now it will be easier to do dovetails, etc.
without looking for a compensating piece of wood of the same thickness
to keep from racking tyhe Record vise.

Pictures:
The mounted vise
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2417

Underside view:
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2418

Another view:
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2419

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Cheers
Jack in Endwell, NY

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150716 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2005‑10‑04 Re: Face vise
Jack Kamishlian wrote:
> GGs,
> 
> Thanks to a suggestion of one of you on the list, I finally made a
> face vise to mount in the Record vise on my workbench.  I used a Lee
> Valley's "press screw" ($16.95).  It seemed kind of light weight, but
> in retrospect, it does the job. I looked at their shoulder vise screw,
> and it was way too heavy.  Now it will be easier to do dovetails, etc.
> without looking for a compensating piece of wood of the same thickness
> to keep from racking tyhe Record vise.
> 
> Pictures:
> The mounted vise
> http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2417
> 
> Underside view:
> http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2418
> 
> Another view:
> http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2419

Any reason to have made it with so much capacity? Since it's
a semi-dedicated DT vise, I'd have though 2" capacity would
be enough, and save you working over and around the screw quite
so much.

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150747 "Blake Ashley" <Blake.Ashley@t...> 2005‑10‑04 RE: Face vise
I can point to one disadvantage of a shoulder vise -  a skinny little
girl can break it without even trying very hard.  Just give it a good
turn after it has bottomed out and CRACK! that cantilevered arm is
history.  

Blake 

>>> "Robert Weber"  10/04/2005 11:44:57 AM
>>>
Having only observed face and shoulder vises being used, I have a
question.
(The only vise I have ever used personally is my WorkMutt).

I guess that I cannot see the advantages of a standard face (or worse
yet,
metal like a Record) vise over a shoulder vise. It would appear to
have
limited depth, and be terribly subject to racking without various
offsetting
gymnastics. By contrast, there is no racking with a shoulder vise and
you
can clamp anywhere behind the screw.

Now, I can see where the face vise does answer some of the
disadvantages of
the shoulder vise - it's ungainly big on the corner of your bench, and
maybe
there are other problems I haven't thought about. The disadvantages of
the
face vise don't seem (to me) to outweigh the advantages.

At times I have toyed with building Paul Pederson's multi-mode vise
(http://pages.infinit.net/perrons/Paul/Woodwork/Workbench/Woodvise/woodvise.
html) and I think that Jack's shoulder vise "insert" for his face vise
is
brilliant. Still, why bother with the shoulder vise at all?

It occurs to me that you gain the advantage of clamping boards flat
between
dogs in the top of the vise, but isn't that handled just as well by
either
an end vise or a well placed holdfast?

Rob, quandrying in Peoria
1960 Anniversary Shopsmith Mk V Brownie
www.jlatech.com/rob/Woodworking/Knowledge%20Base.htm 
 
Wood shavings on the floor! Wood shavings on the floor!
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150743 "Robert Weber" <raweber@m...> 2005‑10‑04 RE: Face vise
Having only observed face and shoulder vises being used, I have a question.
(The only vise I have ever used personally is my WorkMutt).

I guess that I cannot see the advantages of a standard face (or worse yet,
metal like a Record) vise over a shoulder vise. It would appear to have
limited depth, and be terribly subject to racking without various offsetting
gymnastics. By contrast, there is no racking with a shoulder vise and you
can clamp anywhere behind the screw.

Now, I can see where the face vise does answer some of the disadvantages of
the shoulder vise - it's ungainly big on the corner of your bench, and maybe
there are other problems I haven't thought about. The disadvantages of the
face vise don't seem (to me) to outweigh the advantages.

At times I have toyed with building Paul Pederson's multi-mode vise
(http://pages.infinit.net/perrons/Paul/Woodwork/Workbench/Woodvise/woodvise.
html) and I think that Jack's shoulder vise "insert" for his face vise is
brilliant. Still, why bother with the shoulder vise at all?

It occurs to me that you gain the advantage of clamping boards flat between
dogs in the top of the vise, but isn't that handled just as well by either
an end vise or a well placed holdfast?

Rob, quandrying in Peoria
1960 Anniversary Shopsmith Mk V Brownie
www.jlatech.com/rob/Woodworking/Knowledge%20Base.htm
 
Wood shavings on the floor! Wood shavings on the floor!
 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150740 Jack Kamishlian <kamishlian@g...> 2005‑10‑04 Re: Face vise
Well, I thought about it, and figured that if I made it deeper, I
could use it to hold a "small" box while I planed the sides.  Also to
hold drawers where the sides would have to be planed to fit. It's a
little under 6" deep.

But you do have a point.  I could have made it shallower.  And when I
would need to put something wider in the vise, all I would have to do
is add the right width spacer in the Record vise.  That way, I could
have gotten away with a shorter screw.  Duh!  That seems to be a
better, more efficient design.

Cheers,
Jack in Endwell, NY

BugBear asks:
>
> Any reason to have made it with so much capacity? Since it's
> a semi-dedicated DT vise, I'd have though 2" capacity would
> be enough, and save you working over and around the screw quite
> so much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150745 <jthieme@m...> 2005‑10‑04 RE: Face vise
Rob wrote:

At times I have toyed with building Paul Pederson's multi-mode vise
(http://pages.infinit.net/perrons/Paul/Woodwork/Workbench/Woodvise/woodv
ise.
html) and I think that Jack's shoulder vise "insert" for his face vise
is
brilliant. Still, why bother with the shoulder vise at all?

And I wonder:

How is the end of the screw connected to the board in this vise?

~Jeff
near Memphis, TN

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150746 "Robert Weber" <raweber@m...> 2005‑10‑04 RE: Face vise
I believe Paul's a Galoot. Maybe he'll chime in on this...

Rob in Peoria
1960 Anniversary Shopsmith Mk V Brownie
www.jlatech.com/rob/Woodworking/Knowledge%20Base.htm
 
Wood shavings on the floor! Wood shavings on the floor!
 

-----Original Message-----
From: jthieme@m... [mailto:jthieme@m...] 

And I wonder:

How is the end of the screw connected to the board in this vise?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150757 Jack Kamishlian <kamishlian@g...> 2005‑10‑04 Re: Face vise
Hi Blake,

The cantilevered arm is 1 1/4" thick by 4 1/2"" wide maple, and it's
4" cantilever - from the vise to the center of the screw.  Don't think
that it's going to break very easily.

Cheers,
Jack in Endwell

On 10/4/05, Blake Ashley  wrote:
> I can point to one disadvantage of a shoulder vise -  a skinny little
> girl can break it without even trying very hard.  Just give it a good
> turn after it has bottomed out and CRACK! that cantilevered arm is
> history.
>
> Blake
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150759 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2005‑10‑04 RE: Face vise
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... 
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of 
> Robert Weber

> I guess that I cannot see the advantages of a standard face 
> (or worse yet, metal like a Record) vise over a shoulder 
> vise. It would appear to have limited depth, and be terribly 
> subject to racking without various offsetting gymnastics. By 
> contrast, there is no racking with a shoulder vise and you 
> can clamp anywhere behind the screw.

Face vise is great for holding a board on edge for jointing.  You can just
drop the board in the vise so that it extends all the way across the width
of the jaws - in fact, it can hang out both ends - then just tighten it
down.  Very fast for doing certain operations.  Also good where you want to
allow the end of the board to hang out beyond the end of the bench - like
for cutting off the end of the board, or for using a spokeshave or drawknife
(since I haven't yet gotten back to work on the shaving horse that I got
kind of a half-start on over a year ago).  A shoulder vise will hold only so
much of the end of the board, with the rest of it hanging off way out there
so that you need a board jack to hold the other end.  Of course, for any
board long enough, you'd need a board jack for a face vise as well.

But yes, you're right - a shoulder vise does have some advantages over a
face vise.  I do really like Paul Pederson's solution - very clever - but
also a very complicated project.

> It occurs to me that you gain the advantage of clamping boards flat
between dogs in the top of the vise, but isn't that handled 
> just as well by either an end vise or a well placed holdfast?

Sometimes a holdfast can get in the way of what you're trying to do - like
planing the face of a board - but again, yeah, that's what the end vise is
for (which often is just another face vise stuck on the end of the bench).

- Bill T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150771 Tom Price <tomprice03@g...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face vise
Blake Ashley wrote:
> I can point to one disadvantage of a shoulder vise -  a skinny little
> girl can break it without even trying very hard.  Just give it a good
> turn after it has bottomed out and CRACK! that cantilevered arm is
> history.  
> 

Maybe on your bench. On my bench the maple arm is 2 1/4" by 4" and the 
center of the screw is about 6" out. Ain't no little girl that will 
break that. The 1/2" steel bolt holding the arm to the bench would fail 
first. That won't happen any time soon, either.
****************************
Tom Price (tomprice03@g...)
Will Work For Tools
The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at:
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150788 "Blake Ashley" <Blake.Ashley@t...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face vise
Perhaps I shouldn't have generalized and just supplied the facts as I
observed them with my own eyes and ears.  Once upon a time, when I had
very limited shop space, I bought a Frid-style bench with a shoulder
vice from a famous manufacturer.  It was not cheap.  One day, as I was
working intently on something at the tail end of the bench, I heard a
loud crack from the other end of the bench.  Looking up in alarm I saw
my daughter, then about 9 years old, cranking on the screw with all her
minuscule might.  I don't know what cracked, but something did, and it
wasn't her.  I stopped her immediately, but I have little doubt that had
I not, she could have broken that vise.  I haven't done a structural
analysis to determine which particular part would break, but I'm
confident something would.  Maybe an engineer can tell us how much force
is developed by a half-inch screw being turned by say 50 pounds at the
end of a 12 inch lever? I'm sure it isn't an issue if the vise is used
properly.   But it just kinda soured me on the design.

Blake

>>> Tom Price  10/04/2005 11:31:49 PM >>>
Blake Ashley wrote:
> I can point to one disadvantage of a shoulder vise -  a skinny
little
> girl can break it without even trying very hard.  Just give it a
good
> turn after it has bottomed out and CRACK! that cantilevered arm is
> history.  
> 

Maybe on your bench. On my bench the maple arm is 2 1/4" by 4" and the

center of the screw is about 6" out. Ain't no little girl that will 
break that. The 1/2" steel bolt holding the arm to the bench would fail

first. That won't happen any time soon, either.
****************************
Tom Price (tomprice03@g...)
Will Work For Tools
The Galoot's Progress Old Tools site is at:
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/galtprog.html 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150792 James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face vise
I am not an engineer, but the number can't be less than 600 pounds.  
And that is a pretty good force for a 9 year old to develop. :>)

On Oct 5, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Blake Ashley wrote:

>  Maybe an engineer can tell us how much force
> is developed by a half-inch screw being turned by say 50 pounds at the
> end of a 12 inch lever? I'm sure it isn't an issue if the vise is used
> properly.   But it just kinda soured me on the design.
>
Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150793 James Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face vise
Make that inch-pounds. :>)

On Oct 5, 2005, at 8:12 AM, James Thompson wrote:

> I am not an engineer, but the number can't be less than 600 pounds.  
> And that is a pretty good force for a 9 year old to develop. :>)
>
> On Oct 5, 2005, at 7:57 AM, Blake Ashley wrote:
>
>>  Maybe an engineer can tell us how much force
>> is developed by a half-inch screw being turned by say 50 pounds at the
>> end of a 12 inch lever? I'm sure it isn't an issue if the vise is used
>> properly.   But it just kinda soured me on the design.
>>
> Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA.
>
>
Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150772 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face vise
Robert Weber wrote:
> Having only observed face and shoulder vises being used, I have a question.
> (The only vise I have ever used personally is my WorkMutt).
> 
> I guess that I cannot see the advantages of a standard face (or worse yet,
> metal like a Record) vise over a shoulder vise. It would appear to have
> limited depth, and be terribly subject to racking without various offsetting
> gymnastics. By contrast, there is no racking with a shoulder vise and you
> can clamp anywhere behind the screw.

Yep. But you have to work over the screw. You also need
a support for the screw strong enough to hold it,
which normally means around 2" of hardwood.
Even a shoulder vise with 8" of travel thus has
2" + 8" of screw between you and a thin workpiece,
which I don't like.

A Record #53, OTOH, will open (quickly!) to a full 15".

You can also hold a long item (e.g. 3') centrally
in a face vise, where a shoulder vise only open to
one side or the other.

However, racking, vertical workpiece holding,
and DT are better addressed by a shoulder vice.

If one vice type were *without disclaimer* better
than the others, there wouldn't *be* any others.

   BugBear
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150810 Sean <coalandice@y...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face Vise
TO clarify -
 
I cannot take credit
for the bench I posted
the link to!  That is
the work of Dean Jansa
over at Woodcentral

http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/cgi-bin/archives_handtools.pl?read 

http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/cgi-bin/archives_handtools.pl?read 

		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150803 "Gary Katsanis" <gtgrouch@r...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face Vise
Sean, 

I'm finally in Love.  I saw your bench photos, and 
now, *now,*  ***NOW***  I finally know what
I wanted all of these years!

Great Bench!!

Gary K
Close to Buffalo NY

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:17 AM
Subject: [OldTools] Face Vise

> 
> Bill T posited in the Face Vise thread
> Sometimes a holdfast can get in the way
> of what you're trying to do - like
> planing the face of a board
> 
> 
> easily remedied as shown in the jpgs
> at the attached URL:
> http://www.mm.com/user/deanj/bench/bench.html
> 
> altho you'll note the vise as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150797 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2005‑10‑05 Re: Face vise
Blake Ashley wrote:
> Maybe an engineer can tell us how much force
> is developed by a half-inch screw being turned by say 50 pounds at the
> end of a 12 inch lever? 

Lessee. A full turn of the lever moves
the end through 2 pi R inches,
i.e. 75 inches
The screw moves through 1/2" per revolution.
So the mechanical advantage is 75:1/2 or 150:1
A 50 Lb force thus becomes 7500 Lbs!
Even 10Lb becomes 1500 Lbs

    BugBear (who hopes he got that right)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150841 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2005‑10‑05 RE: Face Vise
Cool!

Where'd you get the twin-screw set up?  Did you fab that up yourself?  Or
did you take apart a Veritas twin screw? 

I'm asking because I have two vises that I've been thinking of turning into
one big twin-screw end vise, but I need to figure out how to hook them
together with chain like that.

-----------------------------------------
Bill Taggart
-----------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... 
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Sean
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:17 AM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: [OldTools] Face Vise
> 
> 
> 
> Bill T posited in the Face Vise thread
> Sometimes a holdfast can get in the way
> of what you're trying to do - like
> planing the face of a board
> 
> 
> easily remedied as shown in the jpgs
> at the attached URL: http://www.mm.com/user/deanj/bench/bench.html
> 
> altho you'll note the vise as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand 
> tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the 
> history, usage, value, location, availability, 
> collectibility, and restoration of traditional handtools, 
> especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To read the FAQ: 
> http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/> ~cswingle/archive/faq.html
> 
> 
> OldTools archive: 
> http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r... 
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailma> n/listinfo/oldtools
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150889 Alan DuBoff <aland@s...> 2005‑10‑06 Re: RE: Face Vise
On Thursday 06 October 2005 07:36, Derek Cohen wrote:
> The picture below tells the story.
> http://tinyurl.com/7kyg2

That's interesting, and seems functional. Certainly 2 ends the racking 
problems of the quick release, but at about the same price as a Twin Screw.

Of course the advantage being you have 2 vises when needed for seperate tasks.

-- 

Alan DuBoff
Software Orchestration
GPG: 1024D/B7A9EBEE 5E00 57CD 5336 5E0B 288B 4126 0D49 0D99 B7A9 EBEE

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150893 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2005‑10‑06 Re: Face vise
Bugbear asked:

>Does anyone know the pitch of large (e.g. 2")
>wooden screws?<

I'm tempted to reply, as Bugbear himself so often
does, with just a URL:

http://www.fine-tools.com/gewind.htm

But no, there's no way I can restrain myself from
talking; you'll be lucky to escape in an hour (see you
this albatross around my neck?)

The Schmid 2" screwbox (at the url) has a pitch of 2.5
t.p.i. and their 2.5" screwbox has a pitch of 2 t.p.i.
 By the way, I have one of their 1.25" models, and it
is a superb tool and my pride and joy as a pressmaker.
I wish I could afford the big ones.

The Schmid sizes are right in line with historic
practice. I have measured perhaps half a dozen
binders' presses with screws in the 2" to 3" range and
the pitch is in the range of 2 to 3 t.p.i.; probably
2.5" and 2 t.p.i. is most typical. It isn't absolutely
standard: I am pretty sure that I have seen 2" screws
pitched as fine as 3 and as coarse as 2, and I am
pretty sure I have seen 2.5" screws as fine as 3
t.p.i.  I have an old woodworkers vise screw, so badly
cracked that it is unusable, and I think this is 3"
and 2 t.p.i.  I don't think I have ever seen a screw
larger than 3" or coarser than 2 t.p.i. (I have data
on this, but it is at home and I am going from
memory). A lot of 1.75" screws seem to be 2 t.p.i., if
I remember correctly.

The Schmid screwboxes and taps are rougly ten times
the price of the common Taiwanese ones where sizes are
comparable (approx. $350 opposed to approx. $35 for
1-1/4"). For 1" and finer the cheap ones are perfectly
OK. However, for all sizes over 1" the Taiwanese boxes
are pitched too fine; and using the German ones is a
joy: they are stable, clean-cutting, and easy to
adjust.  More than worth the extra money for them as
has it.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley

		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150883 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2005‑10‑06 Re: Face vise
paul womack wrote:
> Blake Ashley wrote:
> 
>> Maybe an engineer can tell us how much force
>> is developed by a half-inch screw being turned by say 50 pounds at the
>> end of a 12 inch lever? 
> 
> 
> Lessee. A full turn of the lever moves
> the end through 2 pi R inches,
> i.e. 75 inches
> The screw moves through 1/2" per revolution.
> So the mechanical advantage is 75:1/2 or 150:1
> A 50 Lb force thus becomes 7500 Lbs!
> Even 10Lb becomes 1500 Lbs
> 
>    BugBear (who hopes he got that right)

Nope. He didn't...

People have pointed out that I read 1/2" as pitch,
when it was most likely OD.

Further research reveals that Record sell
a 1-ton (2240 Lbs); this is a small
100mm jawed engineer's vice.

Lee Valley shoulder and face vise screws
are OD 1 1/8" inch, pitch unspecified.

Some pixel counting on
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41664&cat=1,41659
make it look like 7 TPI.

Which makes for a lot of force...
ratio is 75: (1/7) = 525:1
10 Lbs -> 5250 Lbs (~= 2 Tons)

Does anyone know the pitch of large (e.g. 2")
wooden screws?

    BugBear (second go)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

150902 "Bill Taggart" <wtaggart@c...> 2005‑10‑06 RE: Face Vise
> 
> Well Bill, here is another alternative for your two vises. A 
> bit basic, but very functional. 
http://www.wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=1194

In fact, I did also consider that solution.  Hmmm... Time will tell, I
suppose.

-----------------------------------------
Bill Taggart
-----------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------------

150878 "Derek Cohen" <derekcohen@i...> 2005‑10‑06 RE: Face Vise
Bill Taggart wrote:
 

            

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