Joshua Clark got some very nice pictures of a couple of saws
> S.H. Co. Fast Mail
> St. Louis, U.S.A.
> Cast Steel Warranted
> Patent Temper Patent Ground

Actually S.H.Co is one of the names for E. C. Simmons Hardware. These is an 
old reference to this on the old tools archive.

> Norvell's Fast Mail
> St. Louis, U.S.A.
> Cast Steel Warranted
> Patent Temper - Patent Ground.

Some time ago there was a discussion of the steel composition of various 
Disston saws, with an assay showing the same composition in a number of 
different "quality" Disston saws (IIRC). Somewhere else (not oldtools, I 
don't think), quality differences between manufacturers with the same input 
steel was reported (ball bearings in that case?)

Since the composition is the same and the quality very different, the 
tempering steps must be what accounts for the difference.

I have seen the term "patent tempered" before, but have never seen a Temper 
Patent. Disston advertising make quite a big deal of their tempering process.

Does anyone know of any patents for tempering steel for saws in particular? 
Or for Patent Ground for that matter. They might reveal a little more about 
he making of saws, way back when.

Brent

Hi All
Brent replies to the Joshua's FAST MAIL query with:
"Actually S.H.Co is one of the names for E. C. Simmons Hardware. These 
is an old reference to this on the old tools archive."
Couldn't S.H. Co also be Shapleigh Hardware. There could be a connection
then because the Norvell is definitely for Saunders Norvell who was
the president of Norvell-Shapleigh hardware for a period at the 
beginning of the 20th century (like 1902 to 1912??) Shapleigh (think 
Diamond Edge) eventually was merged with, bought by or bought Simmons 
(Keen Kutter) later in the century.
Regards
Chuck Zitur
Billings, MT
who has one of those FAST MAIL saws out in the cold garage and will
check it out in the morning

Brent wants to know:

>Does anyone know of any patents for tempering steel for saws in
particular?
>Or for Patent Ground for that matter. They might reveal a little more
about
>he making of saws, way back when.

Henry Disston was granted patent #67734 in 1867 for
"Improvement in Hardening and Straightening Steel Blades"
which is specifically for handsaws.
http://www.datamp.org/displayPatent.php?number=67734&type=UT

I have found a number of patents in USPTO classification 432/225.
(Some of these last names should sound familiar!)

Christopher Richardson was issued patent #157296 in 1874 for
"Improvements in Flattening and Tempering Saws."

George F. Simonds was issued patent #169736 in 1875 and reissue
#7465 in 1877 for "Improvements in Tempering and Forming Articles
of Steel."

E. C. Atkins was granted patent #250184 in 1881 for his "Saw
Tempering Apparatus" and #363271 in 1887
for his "Saw Tempering and Straightening Machine"

There are surely others out there.

Simonds definitely advertised their patented temper saws.
Don't know if it is the patent above, or some other I am
not aware of, but this is how reissue 7465 describes the
process (intended more for circular saws, as in 1877 they
weren't yet making handsaws):

"The leading object of my invention is to produce a perfect
saw without the necessity of hammering; and I find, after a
long series of experiments, that, in order to straighten or
bring to their ultimate form the saws, and leave them
sufficiently hard, it is necessary to use a more highly-
carbonized steel than it is practical to use by the present
mode of straightening by hammering...

In the manufacture of saws it is not only necessary that
they be straightened, or brought to any required form; but
also that the strain or tension of the steel be properly
adjusted, as a saw, brought to a perfect plane or other desired
form, will not work satisfactorily if the strain or tension,
is irregular or improper.  This difficulty has, to some extent,
been overcome in the hammering process by pening or drawing
those parts that are 'fast,' (which term among saw-makers signifies
too small,) to conform to the parts that are 'loose,' or too
large; but it being an impossibility to hammer or pene a saw
uniformly, the strain necessarily is unequal...

1. The improved process herein described, of tempering and
straightening saws by means of heat and pressure, and without
hammering, the saw being protected from atmospheric currents....
2. As a new article of manufacture, saws tempered and left by
the tempering heat in ultimate form, and in a condition free
from the irregular strain or buckle of hammered saws."

Brian Welch
Worcester, MA

updated Simonds web pages:
http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/simonds/index.htm
updated TH Witherby page:
http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/witherby/index.htm
updated Buck Bros page: http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/buck/index.htm
NEW Charles Buck page:
http://www.geocities.com/sawnutz/buck/charles_buck.htm

Tempering galoots

Brian has found the mother lode of patents on tempering. I will be spending 
a little time with classification 432/225 over the next few days.

The patents for tempering sheet metals are interspersed with patents for 
vulcanizing tires in this classification, in case anyone has an allied 
interest.

Thanks Brian

Brent

brian_welch@h... wrote:
> Brent wants to know:
>>Does anyone know of any patents for tempering steel for saws in
> I have found a number of patents in USPTO classification 432/225.
> (Some of these last names should sound familiar!)
> 
> Christopher Richardson was issued patent #157296 in 1874 for
> "Improvements in Flattening and Tempering Saws."
> 
> George F. Simonds was issued patent #169736 in 1875 and reissue
> #7465 in 1877 for "Improvements in Tempering and Forming Articles
> of Steel."
> 
> E. C. Atkins was granted patent #250184 in 1881 for his "Saw
> Tempering Apparatus" and #363271 in 1887
> for his "Saw Tempering and Straightening Machine"

Brian wrote:

[much snipped]

> 1. The improved process herein described, of tempering and
> straightening saws by means of heat and pressure, and without
> hammering, the saw being protected from atmospheric currents....
> 2. As a new article of manufacture, saws tempered and left by
> the tempering heat in ultimate form, and in a condition free
> from the irregular strain or buckle of hammered saws."

It didn't work. :-)  New head saws still have to be hammered to adjust
the tension.  See:

http://www.paynesaws.com/

These guys have my 48 inch blade that needed re-tensioning.  They have
two people who hammer them by hand.  They wouldn't say how much it would
cost, just that they will call when it is finished.  For the record, the
blades don't work worth a $%^# if not properly tensioned.

A bit off topic, but interesting nonetheless.

Jerry
Griffin, GA