I was told by PeterH5322@a... that someone on this list arranged to have
12-20 tap and die sets manufactured.    Peter also said that all of  tap and
die sets were paid for up-front; thus, squashing my hope of finding an
unallocated set.  Does anyone have any interest in having another run of
these sets made?  Better yet, has anyone out-grown their tap and die set?
:-)

Mark

Thom Trail is the guy - if you haven't heard from him yet, here are his
email addresses:

thomt@u... trails2u@b...

he told me a few weeks ago, when I picked up my set from him, that he had a
couple left, I think.

I am in the process of fiddling with this right now - so if and when you
get around to it, post to the list with something in the subject about the
12-20 thread making, if'n you want input.

>I was told by PeterH5322@a... that someone on this list arranged to have
>12-20 tap and die sets manufactured.

[incorrigable snip]

chris

cmca@c...

"First we shape our tools.  Thereafter, they shape us."

				-- Marshall McLuhan

In a message dated 5/30/01 1:20:01 PM, cmca@c... writes:

<<
... if and when you get around to it, post to the list with something in the 
subject about the 12-20 thread making ...
>>

Based upon experience with several "problem" Stanley bench planes, the knob 
and tote receiver threads are usually three to five threads too shallow.

Ever noticed that the very ends of the retaining rods get mucked-up when 
fully tightened? That's evidence of too few threads in the bed.

As for the frog retaining threads, these are about five threads too shallow. 
In some extreme cased a few threads more.

Watch out for using the bottoming tap on corrugated plane beds ... some old 
ones are rather brittle and are prone to "blow out" [ * ] .

The taper and plug taps probably should be relegated to making replacement 
knob and tote retaining nuts, not to chasing threads in the bed. Blow out is 
almost certain with a taper or plug tap in the bed.

I am informed that #12 wire is still available. This would be needed for 
making replacement knob and tote retaining rods.

The die is set at the factory for a purportedly standard 12-20 "cut" thread. 
Yet Stanley has been using rolled threads perhaps since the beginning of the 
immediate past century.

You will have to loosen the die to chase rolled threads.

[ * ] Sadly, this lesson was learned on an average quality #604C.

Peter.

Quoth Peter -
>
>Based upon experience with several "problem" Stanley bench planes, the knob
>and tote receiver threads are usually three to five threads too shallow.
>
>Ever noticed that the very ends of the retaining rods get mucked-up when
>fully tightened? That's evidence of too few threads in the bed.
>

Yes, this is exactly my situation on the 4C.  Although I had assumed it was
due to getting them cross-threaded and then forced.

>Watch out for using the bottoming tap on corrugated plane beds ... some old
>ones are rather brittle and are prone to "blow out" [edit] Sadly, this
>lesson was learned on an >average quality #604C.

That is a timely heads up, thanks.  Let me be sure I understand - by blow
out, you mean the sole blows out when the bottoming tap drives to the
bottom of the bed?

>
>I am informed that #12 wire is still available. This would be needed for
>making replacement knob and tote retaining rods.

I think this is incorrect.  I got some #12 rod after considerable hassle,
being as how it is such an oddball diameter.  While the rod dimension is
the same as the stock of the original equipment measured with a micrometer
(.185"), because the original equipment was made by ROLLING the threads,
the major dimension of the threads measures at .216".  In other words,
because we are cutting threads, we have to use wire (I've been calling it
rod, because when I ordered it they referred to it as "drill rod" but wire
is probably correct) with a starting diameter of .216. To wit:
>
>Stanley has been using rolled threads perhaps since the beginning of the
>immediate past century.

I learned this because when I release the die all the way, I still get
threads that are shallow, and appear wide and flat topped when viewed at at
90º angle.  This is what led to the investigation and information I just
related.  When I attempt to assemble it to the bed, it just flops around
(although the micrometer measurements tell the tale more usefully).

Evidently someone else on the Porch posted references from Machinery's
Handbook to this effect in the earlier thread discussing this.

I am going to try to chase the existing threads on the original equipment
(after cranking the die out to be safe) probably tonight and will post my
experience.

>
>You will have to loosen the die to chase rolled threads.

Another lesson learned recently: by loosen, you mean you have to drive the
adjustment screw in the die forward, i.e. clockwise, to force the die open.

As soon as I get the right rod, I am going to play with the die and make a
replacement tote stud, just for the experience if chasing the threads on
the original works..... ;-)

When I have had some success, ya'll can contact me for replacement parts,
if you don't feel like springing for your own die....

chris

cmca@c...

"First we shape our tools.  Thereafter, they shape us."

				-- Marshall McLuhan

In a message dated 5/30/01 4:57:32 PM, cmca@c... writes:

<<
>Watch out for using the bottoming tap on corrugated plane beds ... some old

>ones are rather brittle and are prone to "blow out" [edit] Sadly, this

>lesson was learned on an >average quality #604C.


That is a timely heads up, thanks.  Let me be sure I understand - by blow

out, you mean the sole blows out when the bottoming tap drives to the

bottom of the bed?
>>

Correct. The result is a roughly conical-shaped piece of the sole drops out.

You want the bottoming tap to *just* bottom, and to proceed no further.

One indication is a circular ring is abraded into the bottom of the tap hole.

If you withdraw the bottoming tap and check the tap hole several times 
(thereby giving you ample opportunity to clean the tap, thereby dramatically 
reducing wear on it) you will see when "enough is enough".

Forcibly cutting even another partial thread will likely result in a "blow 
out".


>>

>You will have to loosen the die to chase rolled threads.


Another lesson learned recently: by loosen, you mean you have to drive the

adjustment screw in the die forward, i.e. clockwise, to force the die open.

>>

Yes, you have to turn the die adjustment screw towards the opposing jaw, 
thereby opening it up.

Peter replied:

>>by blowout, you mean the sole blows out when the bottoming tap drives to the
>>bottom of the bed?
[snip]
>Forcibly cutting even another partial thread will likely result in a "blow
>out".

Or, in a more substantial hunk of metal, an opportunity to hone your
removing-a-busted-bottoming-tap-from-the-hole skills....

chris

cmca@c...

"First we shape our tools.  Thereafter, they shape us."

				-- Marshall McLuhan

I dug up the references on the Tap & Die sets, which Thom relayed to me a
couple days ago.

A friend of mine is an exceptional, maybe gifted, mechanic.  He runs the
crew that builds and maintains the car for a race team, and develops racing
components which he builds himself in his garage.

He'd be a great galoot, if woodworking was his gig.  His great grandfather
was a Scottish Master Joiner, he mentioned when I told him about my
mushrooming galootism.  We got talking at his house a week or so ago during
a party for his SWMBOette, and I was telling him about my little puzzle
with the 4C tote stud.

He related the following formula via email last night, regarding
calculating the tap drill size for a given thread size:

Major diameter - (.97425 divided by # of threads per inch) = Tap Drill Size

So, major diameter of .216 for a 12/20 fastener:

.216 - (.97425/20) = .1672875

disclaimer: this is exactly as far as I have gotten in the conversation
with him.

More on this story, as it develops...

chris

cmca@c...

"First we shape our tools.  Thereafter, they shape us."

				-- Marshall McLuhan

7/32 or 0.2188 in rod is comparatively common and certainly close enough to 
0.216 to be cut with the same die.  You can get in 303 stainless (which is 
reasonably easy to work) for $5 for 3 feet at:

http://www.smallparts.com

catalog # U-ZXRE-3-1/2-36

and they have some other stuff you want too.

No affiliation, and yep you can usually buy it cheaper somewhere else, but 
these guys are easy to work with and have no issues about small quantities 
and will quote custom one-off machine shop work too.  (no minimums, flat 6$ 
shipping, so you might as well buy a couple things, like maybe some brass 
tubing for ferules, or maybe some O-1 tool steel or. . . )

John


<SNIP>

I got some #12 rod after considerable hassle,
being as how it is such an oddball diameter.  While the rod dimension is
the same as the stock of the original equipment measured with a micrometer
(.185"), because the original equipment was made by ROLLING the threads,
the major dimension of the threads measures at .216".  In other words,
because we are cutting threads, we have to use wire (I've been calling it
rod, because when I ordered it they referred to it as "drill rod" but wire
is probably correct) with a starting diameter of .216. To wit:

Thanks for the reference.

The next concern is whether the threaded rod will bind at +.003 - probably
not, in a used plane bed.....

Dr. Chestnut (not his real name, I suspect, but a clever psuedonym created
for online-woodworking-and-related-tools discussions), our resident mad
chemist, offered:

>7/32 or 0.2188 in rod is comparatively common and certainly close enough to
>0.216 to be cut with the same die.  You can get in 303 stainless (which is
>reasonably easy to work) for $5 for 3 feet at:
>
>http://www.smallparts.com
>
>catalog # U-ZXRE-3-1/2-36
>
>and they have some other stuff you want too.
>
>No affiliation, and yep you can usually buy it cheaper somewhere else, but
>these guys are easy to work with and have no issues about small quantities
>and will quote custom one-off machine shop work too.  (no minimums, flat 6$
>shipping, so you might as well buy a couple things, like maybe some brass
>tubing for ferules, or maybe some O-1 tool steel or. . . )
>
>John
>
>
><SNIP>
>
>I got some #12 rod after considerable hassle,
>being as how it is such an oddball diameter.  While the rod dimension is
>the same as the stock of the original equipment measured with a micrometer
>(.185"), because the original equipment was made by ROLLING the threads,
>the major dimension of the threads measures at .216".  In other words,
>because we are cutting threads, we have to use wire (I've been calling it
>rod, because when I ordered it they referred to it as "drill rod" but wire
>is probably correct) with a starting diameter of .216. To wit:


chris

cmca@c...

"First we shape our tools.  Thereafter, they shape us."

				-- Marshall McLuhan

Just for the record, I just sold my 'spare' 12-20 tap and die set.

I have one spare die only (no more taps) for $35, includes postage and
insurance.

Thom Trail