GGs:

What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
without destroying the Japanning?


Thanks to the e-place I am now the delighted owner of something I've been
looking for for quite a while: a Bedrock 608[*] (and at what was, all in
all, a pretty darn good price[**]).

It's in pretty good shape.  However it was _seriously_ filthy[***].  A good
dosage of elbow grease is getting the outside in reasonable shape; however
the inside --the japanned surface-- has some sizable globs of white paint
back by the tote.  More troubling, is that the "well"[****] around the knob
looks like it was about half-filled with tar.

(This may be black paint, but I don't think so.  In any case it's hard,
black gunky stuff.)

I've made some progress, but before I do any damage I'm soliciting
suggestions about how to clean this up as best as possible without
completely wrecking what's left of the Japanning.

Is there anything reasonable that I can soak it in?  [SWIGO suggested --if
it really _is_ tar-- then kerosene should work, that being her father's
solution to tar.]  Is any useful soak also going to destroy the finish?

(I suppose if I were serious about this, I'd strip it all down and rejappan
it; but I'm not ready to go that route.)

So, like I say, any help/suggestions/recommendations would be gratefully
accepted.

Thanks
Nichael

[* A _real_ jointer, Jeff; "Today am I a man..."]

[** Actually the price also --for reasons I don't really understand--
included a Buck Rogers Handyman smoother clone and a 220 (Stanley's 147th
variation on the block plane, Jeff).  Anyway, these have gone in the
donation bag to my daughter's school's rummage sale.]

[*** Of course, the up side to this is that I got to spend a beautiful May
Sunday sitting out under a tree, a jug of mineral spirits on one side, a
pack of Dr Peppers(never mind, you don't want to know, Jeff) on the other,
scrubbing away happily.]

[**** Is there a name for this area?]

In a message dated 5/15/00 4:22:20 PM, nichael@s... writes:

<< 
What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
without destroying the Japanning?
>>

I used to use Pine-Sol, but I found that it softened Japanning if left on 
more than a minute.

Now, I use Simple-Green.

A case in point ...

I got a very ugly Type 12 #3 from a porch-dweller just this week (thanks, 
Lloyd!).

The throat and almost every nook and cranny of the bed was thoroughly gunked 
with pitch and other products of 70+ years of hard use.

The Pine-Sol was completely ineffective in loosening the pitch.

So, I sprayed the entire bed with Simple-Green and set it aside for 30 
minutes.

All the gunk came off with just a quick application of minimal elbow-grease 
using a "soft" toothbrush.

Now, I have a perfectly lovely Type 12 #3 with nearly 100 percent Japanning 
(amazing how well that pitch actually protects the Japanning).

Oh, and my usual application of a 3M "sheetrock sanding sponge" removed the 
rust, but left all the manufacturer's machining marks and the nice 
patination, too.

Simple-Green ... highly recommended.

Peter.

Nichael wrote: (gen-snipped)
>What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
>without destroying the Japanning?


GG,
Nichael asked a good question!  So maybe the person that can help him can help 
me as well.  Some months ago I bought a #12 round at a sale for a buck.  The 
plane is sound, but covered down one side with what appears to be asphalt/tar 
or something.  I originally bought it for the iron and wedge, but if there is 
hope...
I would appreciate any enlightenment on the subject.

Champ
Got tools?
http://www.tooltradersauction.com

PeterH5322@a... wrote:
>What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
>without destroying the Japanning?
>I used to use Pine-Sol, but I found that it softened Japanning if left on 
>more than a minute.
>
>Now, I use Simple-Green.

I use SimpleGreen as well, mostly for the initial cleaning.

However, I've never found it useful against paint.  Perhaps I'm not letting
it soak long enough?

N

I've had great results with mineral spirits. I'd be willing to try
kerosene - I bet that, if used carefully, it wouldn't hurt the japan, as
long as you don't leave it on too long...

----------------------------
Bill Taggart
On the road in Pittsburgh, PA
----------------------------

Nichael wrote:
> What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
> without destroying the Japanning?

Mineral spirits and a tooth brush for gunk.  Finger 
nail for tough spots and paint.  Scotch Brite as a 
last resort - used very carefully.

Bill Bohl


In a message dated 5/15/2000 5:22:20 PM Mountain Daylight Time, 
nichael@s... writes:

> 
>  What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
>  without destroying the Japanning?
>  

Nichael agreed that:

> PeterH5322@a... wrote:
> >What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
> >without destroying the Japanning?
> >I used to use Pine-Sol, but I found that it softened Japanning if left on 
> >more than a minute.
> >
> >Now, I use Simple-Green.
> 
> I use SimpleGreen as well, mostly for the initial cleaning.
> 

At the risk of taking Jeff's job:
"what's Simple-Green"?

	BugBear

At 7:24 PM -0400 5/15/00, Nichael Cramer wrote:
>What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
>without destroying the Japanning?

	Congratulations on the 608, Nichael.  As for cleaning it up, I've
taken to using machine shop hand cleaner (the yellow goop stuff) with a
toothbrush for most general cleaning of tools, including jappaning.  "They"
say the lanolin in it is not good for wood parts, but I remove the wood
before this sort of cleaning, in any case.  On bare metal surfaces I'll use
the orange kind, which has a little bit of fine ground pumice, which helps
tackle light surface rust, but I want to avoid dulling the surface of any
jappaning I can salvage, so avoid using the pumice stuff for that purpose.
	Here's a radical suggestion for paint.  I once snagged a couple of
planes, the front portion of which had been dipped in forest green paint,
apparently for ID purposes, possibly in a school shop setting.  The word on
the List was that japanning is not "paint" as we know it, and that paint
remover, the kind we might use on furniture, would dissolve paint without
hurting japanning.  So I used a little jell-type paint remover on a bit of
rag, wiping it off almost immediately.  Sure enough, the paint came off
easily, and it turns out that the jappaning underneath had actually been
protected by the coat of paint, and looks better now than the rest of the
japanning.  Others might weigh in with other such experiments, especially
if they turned out badly :-(
	For the common glob of paint resulting from a drip, I don't think
I'd leave paint remover on it long enough to soften it for removal.  I've
had good luck sometimes hooking the tip of a utility knife blade under such
a glop and lifting it off, or as someone else suggested, working at it with
a thumbnail to wear it down or break it away.
	Then again, on a *user* plane a glop of paint here and there should
not affect function, and could be left alone, if you can resist the urge to
clean and clean some more.
		Tom Holloway

Several have weighed in with their preferred cleaners:

>What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
>without destroying the Japanning?
>I used to use Pine-Sol, but I found that it softened Japanning if left on 
>more than a minute.
>
>Now, I use Simple-Green.

I use SimpleGreen as well, mostly for the initial cleaning.

However, I've never found it useful against paint.  Perhaps I'm not letting
it soak long enough?

-- snip

My choice for getting rid of those paint splatters has been careful use
of a rag soaked with lacquer thinner.  It has never damaged jappaning
in my experience.  Of course I don't leave it to soak on the tool.  Your 
mileage may vary.

Erik von Sneidern

This is changing the subject a little but still along the lines of 
"removing".  I recently bought a really nice gutter plane.  The only
problem is someone slathered gym cote, polyurethane or something on
it.  It is so thick in some spots it looks like it may have been 
troweled on.  I thought if I used some lacquer thinner it would 
soften it enough to maybe spread it around but no luck.  Any 
suggestions?

Thanks,

Jim     

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik von Sneidern [mailto:enrico@a...
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 7:50 AM
To: oldtools@W...
Subject: Re: Getting Gunk off Japanning


Several have weighed in with their preferred cleaners:

My choice for getting rid of those paint splatters has been careful use
of a rag soaked with lacquer thinner.  It has never damaged jappaning
in my experience.  Of course I don't leave it to soak on the tool.  Your 
mileage may vary.

Erik von Sneidern

Nichael (after giving me a hard time about using emacs) writes:

>What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?) off of Japanning
>without destroying the Japanning?

Well-known tool restorer Herb Kean recommends using the new
environmentally-friendly strippers for the really serious gook that mineral
spirits won't touch.  I've started to use Citri-Strip and can attest that it
works swell.  It has quite a bit more bite than straight mineral spirits,
but still won't hurt the japan (if you don't leave it on too long).  I put a
little bit on with a flux brush, let it set for a minute or two, and hit it
with 0000 steel wool.

This will even work on wood if you're really careful.  I've used it for
getting oily dirt and caked-on grease off marking gages with excellent
results.

ralph (who managed to send a *complete* message this time!)

--- Nichael Cramer nichael@s... wrote:
> GGs:
> 
> What's a good way to get serious crud (paint, tar?)
> off of Japanning
> without destroying the Japanning?

Nichael and Galoots-
I've had good luck with a paint remover made by 3M
that is called "Safer Stripper" or something like
that.  It is a water based product without nasty or
unpleasant fumes and isn't supposed to be harmful to
skin.  I have used it on a number of tools that had
lots of paint splatters, or that were repainted over
good japanning, and it works well.  It sometimes dulls
the japanning a little, but doesn't seem to remove it
or soften it even when left overnight.  It does
totally remove the finish from knobs and totes,
though. If I leave it on something for more than an
hour, I usually put the whole thing in a plastic bag
so the paint stripper doesn't dry out.

I've also been impressed with "Simple Green" for
cleaning and degreasing items, and will have to try it
for paint and heavier crud removal.

I also have a metal can full of kerosene that I will
often soak a tool in to start to loosen old oil,
grease, tar and "crud" before using any other
products.

Those 3M green or white scrubbing pads work well with
WD40 or kerosene for surface rust removal on smooth 
surfaces.  Then, after drying off the lube and wiping
down the tool, I rub on some wax.

=====
Jim Erdman  (in Menomonie, WI)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

Champ,
You might try some gum and pitch remover that they sell to take off
that black stuff you get on the blade of a t*ble s*w.  I tried some
a while back and it seemed to work OK.

Cheers,
Jack in Endwell, NY

Champ Herren wrote:
> GG,
> Nichael asked a good question!  So maybe the person that can help him can help
> me as well.  Some months ago I bought a #12 round at a sale for a buck.  The
> plane is sound, but covered down one side with what appears to be asphalt/tar
> or something.  I originally bought it for the iron and wedge, but if there is
> hope...
> I would appreciate any enlightenment on the subject.
> 
> Champ
> Got tools?
> http://www.tooltradersauction.com
>

In a message dated 5/16/00 9:05:44 AM, KamishlianJ@w... writes:

<<
You might try some gum and pitch remover that they sell to take off
that black stuff you get on the blade of a t*ble s*w.  I tried some
a while back and it seemed to work OK.
>>

Oven cleaner also works.

The biggest abuser of tools appears to be latex paint. I haven't found 
anything that works on latex except for trying to chip it off using a dental 
explorer.

> <<
> You might try some gum and pitch remover that they sell to take off
> that black stuff you get on the blade of a t*ble s*w.  I tried some
> a while back and it seemed to work OK.
> >>
> 
> Oven cleaner also works.
> 
> The biggest abuser of tools appears to be latex paint. I 
> haven't found 
> anything that works on latex except for trying to chip it off 
> using a dental 
> explorer.

Latex paint?

"Goof Off" has worked on some 25+ year old latex paint on 
my #8 (upside-down-aircraft-carrier jointer plane, Jeff).

>From the smell, it's mostly naptha, at a guess.

Kirk Hays
Cedar Mills, Orygun
Cruffler Galoot #1

I have with tools that had tar or globs of paint on them put them in the
freezer for a couple of hrs. and then take them out and while cold carefully
chip the tar or paint off, seems to me to come off much easier and less
danger to the Jappaning beneath .Somtimes have to take the ice cream out to
make room for the plane but I uselly can take care of it befor it
melts......Todd

<snip of all sorts of gentle ways to clean off japanning>

How about electrolysis?

I don't want to fan any flames, and I wouldn't recommend
doing this if your plane is exceptionally valuable, or you
really like to keep the layer of wood resin from decades of 
planing, but only when you have nothing to lose.  Of course,
if you plan to sell your planes, be aware some folks don't
really like that clean but grey metal that gets left behind.

I found a Sargent 414 several years ago, covered with blackish 
green paint and a little bit of rust, that responded very well
to electrolysis.  The japanning was about 85% afterward, and
was untouched by its bath.

It doesn't always work, of course.  The red paint on a Miller's 
Falls red painted frog won't survive, nor will the maroon finish 
on an Ohio Tool plane, or the grey on a V&B 903 series.

That's a DAMHIKT disclaimer...

The good news is that oil based paint, latex paint, roofing tar
and (my favorite) rust, will all lift effortlessly away, and 
zapping won't leave scratches.

It will also lift japanning under which rust has crept.  That
may seem like a bad thing, but in my opinion it's a good thing.
Personally, I don't like think about those poisonous little 
molecules eating their way through my favorite little cast iron
children under the cover of a japan blanket.

My two cents anyway.

Jim Cook
Newton, MA





 

At 03:18 PM 5/17/00 -0400, Jim Cook wrote:
><snip of all sorts of gentle ways to clean off japanning>
>
>How about electrolysis?
>
>I don't want to fan any flames, and I wouldn't recommend
>doing this if your plane is exceptionally valuable, or you
>really like to keep the layer of wood resin from decades of
>planing, but only when you have nothing to lose.  Of course,
>if you plan to sell your planes, be aware some folks don't
>really like that clean but grey metal that gets left behind.

Lotsa snippage here.

Hi Y'all,
I've done a lot of experimenting with electrolysis.  There are
many variations, so I think we need to be more specific when
we discuss the pros and cons.  I became uncomfortable with
using the "standard(?)" solution of lye when my grand daughters
became old enough to get real curious about EVERYTHING.
I tried other types of solutions, including one that I thought had
to be safe.  Salt and water (saline).  I knew enough about
electricity to be certain the saline would be an excellent
conductor.  It is harmless enough, so it seemed a perfect
solution (pun intended).  I even tried it on a trial junker plane
and it was great.  However, the 604 1/2C I used it on was not
so great.  I left it in the tank longer than I planned, due to an
unexpected trip, but why worry?  Well, a chemist explained
I somehow hit on a "magic" solution - something to do with ions
and it created nasty pits in the base.

I now use ONLY water as a solution.  It is somewhat slower,
4-5 days instead of 2-3, but what's the rush?  There are other
variables, also.  The output of the electrical source, the size
and type of anodes, the proximity of the anode and the tool,
etc.  I BELIEVE the use of tap water with a SMALL power
source (1-2 amps) with a 12 volt light bulb in series is safe.
The bulb acts as a fuse and variable resistor to limit the
current and is an indicator of what is really going on. The brighter
the light, the more action.  No light: something is
wrong, etc.  You can also tell a lot from the amount of bubbles
rising.  If it looks like it's boiling, I would stop immediately and
reduce the voltage.

The only japanning I have ever lost was coming off anyway.  The
sick grey surface sometimes that is left, has always come off
easily for me, leaving at least most of the original patina.

Properly used, I think electrolysis is the best cleaning method.
Vinegar is good for small items, parts, etc.  BUT, remember,
it is an acid (or a base, or something).  Left long enough it will
eat at the item, also.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards,
Larry

EMAIL: LKP@R...
HOME PAGE: HTTP://WWW.RUSTYTOOL.CNCHOST.COM
Shortcut to my Links:
http://www.rustytool.cnchost.com/index.shtml#rustytools_links

Larry Poffenberger to Jim Cook regarding electrolysis.  Halogens
(Fluorides,  Chlorides, Bromides etc.) should not be used for
electrolysis because they will result in pitting.  They will also cause
corrosion of stainless steel anode is left sitting in a  solution.

The normally recommended baking soda, is not lye, and generally is quite
safe to use.  Plain water will work very slowly due to more or less
dissolved solids (hardness) but why delay the process?  Washing soda is
somewhat more alkaline but is still safe given reasonable precautions. 
There is no reason to take the risks of using acids or bases (e.g. lye)
 
jim  
(James ME Wallbridge P. Eng.) Metallurgist, Libertarian, Wood & Metal
Worker, Fly Fisher,  Resident of Calgary,  Canada's new head office
location of choice.

Larry writes regarding electrolysis:

> I became uncomfortable with
> using the "standard(?)" solution of lye

Lye? Wow. I never used that. I've always used standard Arm & Hammer baking
soda in water, with really good results.

> I now use ONLY water as a solution.  It is somewhat slower,
> 4-5 days instead of 2-3, but what's the rush?

Days? DAYS? I've never zapped anything longer than a few hours. I've never
had anything that seemed like it would benefit from any longer than that.
Even the most heavily rusted item (and I've zapped one or two REALLY rusty
items) is about as de-rusted as it's gonna get after 3 or 4 hours in the
bucket, at least in my experience.


> There are other
> variables, also.  The output of the electrical source, the size
> and type of anodes, the proximity of the anode and the tool,
> etc.

Yup - most definitely. I use a square plastic bucket - about 4 or 5 gallon
capacity (actually it's a "Scoop-Away" cat litter bucket) for smaller items
like most planes, and a stainless pot lid for the anode. I get them as close
as I can, and dump a pile of baking soda in the water.

> I BELIEVE the use of tap water with a SMALL power
> source (1-2 amps) with a 12 volt light bulb in series is safe.

Hmm.... don't know the amperage, but I'm using an ooooold Sears battery
charger that I got for free, with the switch at the 12 volt setting. No
light bulb, just straight to the tool and pot lid. Seems quite safe - of
course, I always turn it off before touching the tool or anything.

> You can also tell a lot from the amount of bubbles
> rising.  If it looks like it's boiling, I would stop immediately and
> reduce the voltage.

That's what I use to see if it's working - when it really gets going, it
fizzes like a giant Alka-Seltzer. It never gets to what I would call
"boiling", but it can fizz right along nicely - never had a problem with it
doing that. I have had the tool get slightly warm on one or two occassions -
I will slow it down if I think it's getting too hot, for fear of damaging
the battery charger. It never gets hot - definitely not warm enough to
damage the tool.

> The only japanning I have ever lost was coming off anyway.

Definitely.

> Properly used, I think electrolysis is the best cleaning method.

I'm not sure I classify electrolysis as a "cleaning" method. If the tool is
just dirty, then you can definitely acheive really nice results without
electrolysis. I only use electrolysis for those items that are really rusted
to the point where less aggressive methods won't do enough. I think
electrolysis would fall more into the "restoration" category - especially in
light of the discussion the last time that thread came around...   ;-)

> Vinegar is good for small items, parts, etc.  BUT, remember,
> it is an acid (or a base, or something).  Left long enough it will
> eat at the item, also.

Vinegar is an acid - acetic acid, specifically.

----------------------------
Bill Taggart
On the road in Rochester, NY
----------------------------