I need your advice on a what would constitute a minimal
  grouping of planes.

  Don't say "One of each".

  I used my modern era 220 block plane to smooth up the joints
  on some glued up SYP 4x4 table legs last night. (heart wood
  cut from 2x8 - similar to the FWW bench technique - but that's
  another story) It wasn't the right tool for the job, but it
  gave me a taste of what to expect.

  I was thinking a 4, 5, and 7 to start with?

  What variations of these do I want (for users, not collectors)
  and what is it going to cost me?

  The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
  Somebody - talk me out of it...

  Thanks again for your thoughts. They are sometimes useful and
  always entertaining.

  -Wendell Tillman

I bought one of the contractor grade Stanley #4's from Lowes about 2 years
ago before I knew any better. I lapped out the horrendously untrue sole,
scary sharpened the iron, deburred the crappily casted cast pieces,
flattened the frog, and done just about everything I could think of to
properly tune the thing, and still ended up with a lesser plane than the
type 16 #4 I already had that I had done virtually nothing to. My advice is
to steer clear of these because they are nothing but frustrating. On the
plus side, I did gain a couple of things from the whole ordeal: I developed
an even greater appreciation for the older tools and the makers of them, and
as soon as I get around to it, I think that new Stanley will make a fine
scrub plane! (BTW, in my opinion a #4, #5 and #7 would be the essential
bench planes to own.)

Frank Jordan

"Talking to her is like backing up on a brace and bit. Either way you just
get bored."   --Foghorn Leghorn
-----Original Message-----
From: dtillman@o... <dtillman@o...>
To: OLDTOOLS@w... <OLDTOOLS@w...>
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 2:45 PM
Subject: I Have Plane Fever!


>
>  The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
>  Somebody - talk me out of it...
>
>

dtillman@o... wrote:
>
>   I need your advice on a what would constitute a minimal
>   grouping of planes.
>
>   Don't say "One of each".
>
>   I used my modern era 220 block plane to smooth up the joints
>   on some glued up SYP 4x4 table legs last night. (heart wood
>   cut from 2x8 - similar to the FWW bench technique - but that's
>   another story) It wasn't the right tool for the job, but it
>   gave me a taste of what to expect.
>
>   I was thinking a 4, 5, and 7 to start with?

Good choices. I don't see any reason not to substitute a #3 (smoothing
plane, Jeff) for the #4 (smoothing plane, Jeff)  if you find one.
Similarly a #8 (jointer plane, Jeff) may be substituted for the #7
(another jointer plane, Jeff) with little effect.
>
>   What variations of these do I want (for users, not collectors)
>   and what is it going to cost me?

Check the FS's in the archives. A lot depends on whether you get nice,
almost ready to go, planes from the venerable old tool dealers on the
porch, or whether you look for bargains on your own. I prefer not to
spend my time at flea markets and auctions, so I'd probably consider
$40-$60 for the #4 and #5 to be reasonable, and maybe $100 -$125 for a
jointer in good shape. If you can't afford them all at once start with
the #5, then get the jointer, and then get the smoother.
>
>   The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
>   Somebody - talk me out of it...

OK, How about "If you do this I'll send Louie and Carmine from Joizey
City for a visit to let you know how really, really stoopid you were to
buy a new plane. So avoid the unpleasantness, pain and trauma, and buy a
decent old plane."

Carl

Wendell wrote...

>   The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
>   Somebody - talk me out of it...

To reiterate, I bought a Record #5 from Garret WAde a few years before
enlightenment.  It had hardwood handles and is a very nice plane.  Not as
nice as the fine sweethart Stanley #5 for $15.00 at a garage sale.  THat was
the first old tool I bought.
So, forget the close outs.  I've looked at 'em at Woodcraft with the plastic
handles they're God awful.
You can get much better users off the list.  I'm a user and don't have
extras.  There really is no comparison.  You'll hate yourself in the morning
with the Lowes.  Kind of like sleeping with your cousin after too much
drink.
There is always the MofA.

Charlie Nunemaker
M-WTCA
Wilmette,IL

>>   The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
>>   Somebody - talk me out of it...

> OK, How about "If you do this I'll send Louie and Carmine from Joizey
> City for a visit to let you know how really, really stoopid you were to
> buy a new plane. So avoid the unpleasantness, pain and trauma, and buy a
> decent old plane."

    I like it, I really like it.

    -WDT

--- dtillman@o... wrote:
>
>
>
>
>   I need your advice on a what would constitute a
> minimal
>   grouping of planes.
>
>   Don't say "One of each"...SNIP...

> If you buy the right tool for the next job you're
going to do, you can't go wrong...Ultimately you want
a lot of planes, but the next one you need is the one
to buy.  You can tailor your project to require any
boneroo tool you'd already like to have, but having a
project in mind that is IN ITSELF SOMETHING YOU NEED
is the best way to buy tools.  It's so easy to keep
your story straight when it's the truth.

>   I used my modern era 220 block plane to smooth up
> the joints
>   on some glued up SYP 4x4 table legs last night.
> (heart wood
>   cut from 2x8 - similar to the FWW bench technique
> - but that's
>   another story) It wasn't the right tool for the
> job, but it
>   gave me a taste of what to expect...SNIP

   I'm not so sure it wasn't the right tool for the
job, especially if it worked.  You might want to go
over it with a smoothing plane...
I'm not so sure that twenty bucks for a modern #4 is a
bad deal.  I've got plastic handles on many of my
tools, like screwdrivers, and I don't mind them at
all.  Plus, for around $20 William Alden is selling a
rosewood handle and knob upgrade for that very
plane...

  Charlie sez:  "You can get much better users off the
list.  I'm a user and don't have
extras.  There really is no comparison.  You'll hate
yourself in the morning
with the Lowes.  Kind of like sleeping with your
cousin after too much drink.
There is always the MofA....

   I'm a big fan of the MofA, but I don't think you're
gonna get a good user #4 for $20---Garrett Hack says
he likes the plastic handles-I think this may be a
case, like the above, of  "better to regret something
you have done than something you haven't done...If you
do buy a new #4 for $20, be prepared to spend some
real time 'fettling' it, but as John Brown (welsh
chairmaker) says:  Take the sorriest plane in the shop
and clean it up, sharpen it, and you'll be amazed at
what it can do"...I looked at the plastic handled
Stanleys at my local store, and the machinery looked
pretty good--I think the #4 was about $40??? THAT
would get you a  nice user, somewhere...Best of
luck--GAM

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GAM sez:

>I'm not so sure that twenty bucks for a modern #4 is a
>bad deal.  I've got plastic handles on many of my
>tools, like screwdrivers, and I don't mind them at
>all.  Plus, for around $20 William Alden is selling a
>rosewood handle and knob upgrade for that very
>plane...
>
I sez,
      well then you'd be adding $20 to the cost of the $20
knockdown price,resulting in $40 total - you'd get a pretty good
user #4 for that.The problem from my experience with the new
contractor grade St*nley is that
(a) You really do have to spend a lot of time tuning it.
(b) When you do have it all tuned the mouth is still so wide
    that I'm suprised that large portions of America haven't
    fallen into it.Even when you move the frog as far forward as
    possible it still cries out "scrub plane".

I guess I'll keep mine awhile and sell it as  NIB on an
unmentionable online auction service.

               Phil .Stealth galoot #99.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Gary writes....

>I'm a big fan of the MofA, but I don't think you're
>gonna get a good user #4 for $20---
>
>--I think the #4 was about $40??? THAT
>would get you a  nice user, somewhere...Best of
>luck--GAM

That's the point.  You can get a good old user for around the same amount as
a new one with crappy handles.  For gosh sakes put up a WTB on the list.
The brethren here will come up with something that beats Lowes for sure.

Charlie Nunemaker
M-WTCA
Wilmette,IL

Hi Wendell

dtillman@o... wrote:
>  I was thinking a 4, 5, and 7 to start with?

Sounds like an excellent choice.  I'd do them in order 4-7-5 (but that's
just personal taste.)

>  What variations of these do I want (for users, not collectors)
>  and what is it going to cost me?

There's a real time/luck/patience trade off here.  If you can take your
time --and with a bit of luck [read: willing/ability to hit the local
sales, etc]-- you should be able to find a nice #4 for about $20, twice
that for the 5 and twice that for the 7.   If you're in a rush, probably
double those figures.

>  The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
>  Somebody - talk me out of it...

Let me just add my voice to what everone else has already said.

If you go this route, six months from now you'll be kicking yourself.
However, if you get yourself an older/better tool now, six months from now
you won't remember the added hassle.

Nichael

Nichael Cramer [me] wrote:
>>  The local Lowes is closing out their Stanley #4s for $20.00.
>>  Somebody - talk me out of it...
>
>Let me just add my voice to what everone else has already said.
>
>If you go this route, six months from now you'll be kicking yourself.
>However, if you get yourself an older/better tool now, six months from now
>you won't remember the added hassle.

One other thing I forget to add:

Even given all the above, for this price you still might want to pick one
of these guys up.  They make nice "yard-work" planes or something to let
your neighbor borrow when her garage door is sticking.  (And your
conscience won't be bother you when it inevitably gets dinged up.)

N

The listserv keeps souncing my mail because it is scanning the messages for
listserv commands - which is DUMB, BTW.

I suggest that you think about adding a #60 or #60-1/2 low angle block plane
to the list of planes you are going to get.

  Many thanks for everyone's thoughts on my plane questions.

  A couple of list members have offered me package deals of
  combinations of #3, #4, #5, #7, and #8 that I am looking over.
  I could use a good explanation of the different Stanley types
  (10, 13, 19, etc). I did read over Patrick's B&G, but didn't
  get a good feel for what the difference between a type 13 #5
  and type 19 #5 was.

  My next question: What saws?

  I presume a backsaw, tenon, and dovetail? From what maker?

  -Wendell Tillmans

>   I could use a good explanation of the different Stanley types
>   (10, 13, 19, etc). I did read over Patrick's B&G, but didn't
>   get a good feel for what the difference between a type 13 #5
>   and type 19 #5 was.

For an on-line explanation of types and dates, visit
http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/dating/

Don't forget that Stanley never made the planes to any particular type - the
type studies are based on experienced tool collectors making detailed
observations of what they found in the wild on tools that were presumed to
be all original, based on case-specific conditions. What you actually find
in the wild will commonly not exactly fit in a specific type, but you can
usually generally place it...

A good type study is also found in the back of John Walter's excellent
reference book "Antique and Collectible Stanley Tools Guide to Identity and
Value"

- Bill Taggart
- At home in Califon, NJ, USA

   Would  this  apply  to  a  'new in the box' Stanley #78 I found at the
   local hardware store?

   Ray

   OK, How about "If you do this I'll send Louie and Carmine from Joizey
   City  for  a visit to let you know how really, really stoopid you were
   to
   buy a new plane. So avoid the unpleasantness, pain and trauma, and buy
   a
   decent old plane."

   Carl
   --
   Carl Muhlhausen                         ledzep@att.com
   AT&T Labs                                       732.420.2539
   200 Laurel Ave. S. - Rm C5-3W01
   Middletown, NJ 07748