Nice troll; time to switch to digest mode. ;^)

At 10:35 PM 6/7/99 -0700, Jimmy Reina wrote:
> My reply to all of my students and all of the Normbashers is "This guy
> has done more to advance woodworking as the wonderful pastime that it is
> than anybody else, and I applaud him for it.

You are absolutely right. NYW got me interested (again) in woodworking.
Sure, I figured I needed to "machine" every stick and so bought a few
machines. But now I'm assembling a set of woodie dado planes (OT content
and drive-by WTB). Why? two reasons: (1) quiet and speed. I took Marc
Adams' dovetail class because I realized that the time to set up a routah
template was probably not worth it. Besides, the cost of the class was
about a quarter of what a super-whoopee do-all jig would have cost me. But
it was Norm who got me interestd in making things that require dovetails in
the first place.

Roy had the opposite effect. When I first watched, I was repelled by the
amount of effort that hand tools obviously required. Why go through that
when one has electricity? Now I enjoy both shows. I shake my head at Norm's
obsession with power tools; I wish he'd learn to use and appreciate hand
tools. But there are still tricks and techniques to learn that can be
executed with either hand or power tools.

BTW, I wonder how many buyers of IT, LN, Hock, or HT products migrated from
power to hand. I suspect that Pete, Tom, Ron, Mike, and lots of others owe
Norm a small debt of gratitude for creating customers who started out on
the dark side of the force but eventually saw the light.

Steve Jones
unrepentant in Kokomo IN

Steve rose to the bait, and then threw out a line of his own:

> BTW, I wonder how many buyers of IT, LN, Hock, or HT products
> migrated from power to hand.

Well, count me out of this group! I gotta say that watching Norm
did not prompt me to get into woodworking. Rather, it delayed my
getting into this hobby.

Howzat? Seeing all of the power tools it took to do a project
made me think that it would take too much money and space to get
up and running. Besides, most power tools scare the crap outta
me. I've got too many friends without all of their fingers.

Okay, I'll admit that I've flirted with the dark side - I do have
a table saw and a drill press. While the drill press does get used,
the saw hasn't been powered up in at least two or three years.
I like it that way.

Anyway, I've gotta credit/blame my younger brother for pushing me
into this abyss. It's been a fun ride so far!

Finding tools has been pretty easy, since I already was in the
habit of haunting garage sales, flea markets, auctions, anteek
mauls, estate sales (where my first plane was found), and other
stops along the slippery slope. Paul's nudging just gave me a
new batch of stuff to look out for.

Now granted, I haven't tackled any large cased projects yet. I may
have to appeal to some of those digitally challenged friends for
help in getting the dimensioning done. Or maybe not. What's the
rush?

Just another vote for Steve's position.  A friend got me started, but Nahm
sustained my interest as I was buying hardware from the darkside.  Mere space
was not going to keep me from building a shop.  I used to have bragging
rights to the most power tools per square foot of any shop in town (a room
about 7 ft x 15 ft with a tablesaw, drill press, 8" jointer, planer, bandsaw,
and a pile of tailed handtools), and had to cut large doors in the side wall
and put all the stationaries on wheels just to be able to use them on any
board over 4 feet!  Now, ironically, I have a 1200 sq ft shop and am in the
process of acquiring handtools that all fit on the wall beside my workbench.
But Norm deserves a lot of credit in my case.  His non-threatening manner
gives confidence to beginners.

Quentin
dovetailed@a...

Here's a thread I can contribute to.

Norm did make me interested in woodworking.  Watching his show made me want
to make things out of wood.  But watching his show slowed down my start in
woodworking.  Seeing his shop, with all the power tools, I thought it would
cost a fortune to get started in woodworking.  Just to have the minimum
tools of what Norm had, and the space to set them up, was beyond my reach.

Then this spring, browsing the library, I found the book "Hand Tools: Their
Ways and Workings" and the book "Furniture Making: Plane and Simple" (I
think, this is from memory, which may be faulty).  With those books I
realized I don't need that much space and expensive hand tools.  So I
jumped.  I did some more research, some web surfing (finding this list
along the way), and started finding tools and got to work.  So far I've
gotten about 85% of the way through the first project (my first
workbench*).  SWMBO has even already made a Honey Do list.

One thing I've learned is that hand tools give much more satisfaction in
getting the work done than power tools.  I have a few power tools, which I
don't use any more.  When SWMBO had me mount some lights on the wall, I
grabbed the brace instead of the cordless drill.

My big problem is now tool lust.  I want at least 40 planes.  I want lots
of different saws.  I want chisels, and rules, and squares, and hammers,
and . . .  I think this will eventually cost more than Norm's workshop, but
I can get started for much less.

*The workbench would be a lot easier to make if I had a workbench. :)

Eric Damien Berna
eric@t...

Jim wrote...
>
>Regarding Norm Abrams. I was teaching woodworking when FineWoodworking
>put him on the cover. I never saw such an uproar from the woodworking
>purists,

Interesting post.  I've thought of chiming in on Norm before.  I started as
a carpenter in the early 70's.  My friends and I used to laugh at Bob and
Norm.  Norm was a hack.  I have always given him credit for becoming a
pretty fair carpenter since.  Villa is still a joke and just a salesman for
Sears.  I know almost all of us started with power tools and I still use
'em.  In fact I couldn't resist a beautiful 1950 craftsman 10 inch table saw
at a garage sale the other day.  I paid $50.00 and it beats the hell out of
my ten year old Delta contractor saw.  The guy even threw in a nice Stanley
#34 type 2 machinist level cause we were talking tools.  The $2.00 Atkins
#65 is nice too.  (Sorry Tony I'm keeping that one)
Anyhow, Norm is a nice likeable fella even if he is overboard on power.
He's got a good thing going for himself and his Yankee woodshop is a nice
gig.  He has fun building ALL that stuff and he gets paid.  I bet a lot of
us wish we had it so good. We of course would emplore hand techniques when
they were quicker than the router setup we don't see on the show.

Charlie Nunemaker
Wilmette, IL
M-WTCA

At 10:35 PM 6/7/99 -0700, Jimmy (ten cents a word) Reina  wrote:

>       Regarding plane sole flattening. My friend Plane-O-Man insists that it
>is necessary to flatten the sole of his planes to within .0002".

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  And your are going to measure that and use that in
your environmentally STP controlled whiteroom shop, right?  On wood???

>I still have my doubts about all of this technoplaning, but I am still
>curious about what others think.

Now you know what this former precision metalhead thinks of it. Must be a
typo. (being kind to whoever said that).  :^)

Gene

At 06:13 PM 6/8/99, eugene@t... wrote:
>At 10:35 PM 6/7/99 -0700, Jimmy (ten cents a word) Reina  wrote:
>
>>      Regarding plane sole flattening. My friend Plane-O-Man insists that it
>>is necessary to flatten the sole of his planes to within .0002".
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  And your are going to measure that and use that in
>your environmentally STP controlled whiteroom shop, right?  On wood???
>
>>I still have my doubts about all of this technoplaning, but I am still
>>curious about what others think.
>
>Now you know what this former precision metalhead thinks of it. Must be a
>typo. (being kind to whoever said that).  :^)
>
>Gene

Hi Y'all,
FWIW, I'll provide my thoughts on the subject of
machinists tolerances as related to woodworking.
I don't understand this preoccupation with perfect
planes.  IMHO, the plane is NOT a finishing tool,
it is used to get a "reasonably" flat surface.  The
finishing tool is the scraper.  It eliminates the
need for sanding (unless you want to open the grain,
possibly for staining) and it removes whatever plane
marks are left behind.  Creating "wispy" shavings is
where the scraper comes into it's own.  Trying to get
a plane to do the job of the scraper is like using a
10 lb sledge to drive thumb tack.  It can be done,
but why not use the tool that was designed for the
job?

I have come to the conclusion that the only real
measure of success in woodworking is the eyeball.
If it LOOKS good, it is good.  If it don't, it
ain't.  Finely tuned tools are required, but only
to a point.  Beyond that point, we're just gilding
the lily.  If you get your kicks from tuning your
tools, great.  You'll just never convince me that
any tolerance I can't see is required in woodworking.
By and large, I agree with the Tech School instructor
that introduced me to woodworking.  He stated that
1/32 of an inch is well within most tolerances.
Just a reminder - don't forget wood swells and shrinks
what happens to tolerances less than 1/32 when that
happens?

Just sign me sloppy, but happy.

Regards,
Larry

EMAIL: LKP@R...
HOME PAGE: HTTP://WWW.RUSTYTOOL.CNCHOST.COM
Shortcut to my Links:
http://www.rustytool.cnchost.com/index.shtml#rustytools_links

It's not that Norm uses power tools.  There's nothing wrong with that.
It's that he presents himself as a Do It Yourself show in which the viewer
is encouraged to work along.    A real DIY (and many craftsmen too) has
only a limited set of tools and he must solve problems by skill, ingenuity
and carefull choice of construction techniques.  This kind of
resourcefulness is a very important part of craftsmanship.  However, Norm
hardly ever does this -  every technical problem is solved by an expensive
piece of specialist machinery.

I think the underlying problem is that Norm is really a construction
carpenter.  When building a house, the investment is so large and the labor
costs are so high that it almost always makes sense to go out and by a $500
power tool just to solve a particular problem.  I think too that this is
the reason for the ugly construction methods that Norm uses.

Adam

>       Regarding plane sole flattening. My friend Plane-O-Man insists that it
>is necessary to flatten the sole of his planes to within .0002".

As suggested by others, this is quite laughable.
After about ten swipes, you'll have created enough heat from
friction with the wood to wipe out this tolerance.

Then there is the problem of setting your iron.  I expect it is
impossible to set your iron to within .0002 of parallel to the
bottom of your plane.  What the heck would you indicate off of to
get that kind of measurement.  Indicating off a knife edge without
destroying it is impossible without laser equipment.
If the iron isn't parallel and square to your plane bottom within the
same tolerances, then what good is your flat plane bottom.

I see this all the time with hobbiest machinests that think they need
.0001 tolerances on all the metalwork they do.  Hogwash.
Unless you are working on super high velocity bearings, or dealing
with optic focusing equipment, etc, there is no need.  There is also no
way to hold these tolerances once you achieve them without a temperature
and humidity controlled environment.  After you wrap your sweaty galoot
paws around your plane, that's blown to heck.

I tend to be towards the perfectionist side of things sometimes
myself, but I can't imagine worring about anything less than an
order of magnitude greater than what he is suggesting.  Happy
flattening.

Cheers,
--Dave Shepard

Dave Shepard wrote:
>
> >       Regarding plane sole flattening. My friend Plane-O-Man insists that i
t
> >is necessary to flatten the sole of his planes to within .0002".
>
> As suggested by others, this is quite laughable.
> After about ten swipes, you'll have created enough heat from
> friction with the wood to wipe out this tolerance.
>
> Then there is the problem of setting your iron.  I expect it is
> impossible to set your iron to within .0002 of parallel to the
> bottom of your plane.  What the heck would you indicate off of to
> get that kind of measurement.  Indicating off a knife edge without
> destroying it is impossible without laser equipment.
> If the iron isn't parallel and square to your plane bottom within the
> same tolerances, then what good is your flat plane bottom.
>
>
> I tend to be towards the perfectionist side of things sometimes
> myself, but I can't imagine worring about anything less than an
> order of magnitude greater than what he is suggesting.  Happy
> flattening.
>
> Cheers,
> --Dave Shepard
>
> --What I don't understand is why anyone would want to try and work wood or
tune there tools to these kind of tolerances. I work metal by day and in the
real world of general machine machine work .005 is normal tolerance. I don't
really know how the average woodworker would go about measuring things to 2
tenths. Anybody can buy an indicator but only a few can really use one. Tenths
are just not realistic dimensions for the average person to try and achieve and
I worry about how many people get turned off hand tools by reading about all of
the tuning required before use. I would say that most of the people who made
the furniture and other wooden items we so admire and try to emulate would
laugh themselvles silly if you told them you couldn't use a plane unless the
sole were flat within .0002. This is supposed to be fun! Lets use the tools!
Get the parts loosened and sharpen the blade, see what it will do if it needs
more work fine tune it up a little if what it does suits you !
!
fine you put a good old tool back in service and it met your needs. Maybe I
just get turned off by all of the precision tuning talk because I do that stuff
all day and use woodworking as an escape but I would rather use tools than work
on them.

   Mike Yazel

>
> >     Regarding plane sole flattening. My friend Plane-O-Man insists that it
> >is necessary to flatten the sole of his planes to within .0002".
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  And your are going to measure that and use that in
> your environmentally STP controlled whiteroom shop, right?  On wood???
>
> >I still have my doubts about all of this technoplaning, but I am still
> >curious about what others think.
>

It's way obvious that planes need to be somewere-near-flat. It is also
obvious (from discussions here and elsewhere) that nobody knows
*how* flat (what our metalhead friends call tolerance).

Given the perfectionist bent of some list-dwellers, the obvious
conclusion is "as-flat-as-possible".

Survey: Who (of the people who claim flat ain't needed) would turn
down an offer by a metal-head friend to surface grind a user plane
FOC?

        BugBear.

I have to say I would turn it down.

Having been on the receiving end of one of those, unless special
precautions are taken there is no way a surface grind is gonna
produce a truly flat surface on cast iron. The simple heat developed
during the process is enough to throw tolerances of 0.005" out the
window.

I have now taken to using a mill file or a japanese water stone to
flatten the sole in my planes.  I get better results and faster than
with sandpaper and have absolutely no problems whatsoever
with the thing changing shape on me as soon as it cools down.

As someone else pointed out, a couple of swipes on wood and the
temperatuh has risen enough to throw all those 0.00n" tolerances
outawhack. And you can bet that cast iron is gonna twist
this way and that, not linearly.

Anyway, my $0.02 worth thrown in.

Cheers
Nuno Souto
nsouto@n...
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/the_Den
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Womack <bugbear@c...>
Sent: Wednesday, 9 June 1999 19:29
Subject: Re: PLANE SOLE FLATTENING AND NORM ABRAMS


> >
> Survey: Who (of the people who claim flat ain't needed) would turn
> down an offer by a metal-head friend to surface grind a user plane
> FOC?
>

You have to consider Norm's motivation (actually, Norm's boss's
motivation.  Norm is an employee of the company who owns the show.).
This show is sponsored by power tool manufacturers, in order to sell
their tools.  (Delta, Makita, Hitachi, etc. have no interest in
sponsoring Roy's show.)  I have often seen Norm use several different
power tools to do the same operation in the same project in the same show.
This is to demonstrate that not just one tool will work for a particular
operation.  It is also just to showcase and demonstrate a myridad of
power tools.  This widens the base of potential power tool sponsors for
the show.  I don't think that Norm has much interest, or maybe even
the option, to use hand tools to any great degree on this show.

And, he is keeping up and expanding interest in woodworking in general.
This benefits all of us.

Just my 2 cents,
Mark Westerman
Wichita, Ks

>Survey: Who (of the people who claim flat ain't needed) would turn
>down an offer by a metal-head friend to surface grind a user plane

I would.  First, if the guy's not careful, it might mess things up bad.
Second, of the many, many old planes that I've tuned up and used,
only a few have had problems because the sole wasn't flat "enough".

Of these, only a small few that I felt was worth it, have I scraped
or lapped (metal) or planed flat (wood).   I know what the problems
are of having a jointer that's really convex or concave in the middle.
But not every plane has to be perfectly flat.   And not every plane
needs to be able to take a tear out free .001" shaving through
tight mouth.

Walter
use first, lap later.

Galoots and Galootesses:
     Norm's use of p*w*r tools reminds me of a statement the television
fisherman Bill Dance made.  Someone asked him why he didn't use live
minnows to catch crappies (or as they are known down here: speckled
perch).  He replied, "I don't have a live minnow sponsor."  That's good
enough for me.

Dick Durbin                     "Who is out there to provide us with a
Tallahassee, FL                 personal example of virtue and
www.tfn.net/~ddurbin            self-sacrifice for a higher good?"-Calvin

~  -----Original Message-----
~  From: owner-oldtools@l...
~  [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Dave
~  Shepard
~  Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 3:05 AM
~  To: oldtools@l...
~  Subject: Re: PLANE SOLE FLATTENING AND NORM ABRAMS
~
~  Then there is the problem of setting your iron.  I expect it is
~  impossible to set your iron to within .0002 of parallel to the
~  bottom of your plane.

Just to create a distraction, impossible also to be sure of setting
the iron to within .001 of parallel even? One of the reasons given
when I was first taught the value of the slightly cambered edge.

The straight edge with rounded corners, appearing in virtually every
textbook, could do well to remain there in my modest opinion!
Certainly so if the scraper is used.

For those new to this idea, a visit to my home page might be worth a
few sheckels of telephone time - see 'Planing a Square Edge'.

Jeff

~  -----Original Message-----
~  From: owner-oldtools@l...
~  [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of
~  Mike Yazel
~  Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 3:54 AM
~  To: dshepard@c...
~  Cc: oldtools@l...
~  Subject: Re: PLANE SOLE FLATTENING AND NORM ABRAMS
~
~  ..........Maybe I just get turned off by all of the precision
~  tuning talk because I do that stuff all day and use
~  woodworking as an escape but I would rather use tools than
~  work on them.

I respectfully suggest that condemnation of the precision advocates
should be reserved for those who suggest that it is absolutely
essential.

If the plane takes a decent shaving of any kind, it will serve for
trimming door edges and many run-of-the-mill jobs.

However, if one wants to plane the surfaces of some hardwoods without
those tears that cause grief at the finishing stage, the effort can
sometimes be well worth while.

Perhaps it is time to reiterate that for tear avoidance (total
elimination can sometimes be another matter) the essential features
are:

Contact at toe, front lip of mouth and heel;
Fine shaving aperture;
Sharp blade;
Heavy downwards pressure from the user.

Jeff

At 09:29 AM 6/9/99 BST, Paul W  wrote:

>It's way obvious that planes need to be somewere-near-flat. It is also
>obvious (from discussions here and elsewhere) that nobody knows
>*how* flat (what our metalhead friends call tolerance).
>
>Given the perfectionist bent of some list-dwellers, the obvious
>conclusion is "as-flat-as-possible".

Yeah.  Perfectionism certainly will slow the progress of a lot of Galoots,
including me.  I just tried to say I think I have a feel for what .001"
really is, and whether it is meaningful at all in woodworking, or in
woodworking handtools.
I have to struggle to overcome the metalhead mentality all the time.

>Survey: Who (of the people who claim flat ain't needed) would turn
>down an offer by a metal-head friend to surface grind a user plane
>FOC?

Count me as one.  I could just do it myself, but like I said, I'm trying to
avoid squandering my time.  I just want the edge in front of the mouth
(technichally called the upper lip), toe and heel to make good contact.

No! I don't have a foot fettish, who said that?

Gene (maybe I should do a FS soon on .0001 dial indicators...)

Abram.

Correct.

At 01:03 AM 6/10/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Abram.
>
>--
>
>