OldTools Archive
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257835 | "David G. Wittner" <dwittne@u...> | 2016‑01‑31 | End vise or tail vise? |
So the pile of oak, maple, and cherry that will be my new workbench has been moved around the shop for the last time. I've finally decided that it's time to build the bench it was supposed to be for the last 2 years. I always planned on a traditional style bench with storage (drawers) below, tool tray, front vise and tail vise. It will be big, thinking 84"x 28" or so (not quite the 148" of the Hancock Shaker Village bench but similar in design). About 8 or so years back I made a prototype bench using carefully selected 2x4s for the top, and pine 4x4 dunnage for the base. No tray, front vise and end vise. I'm not wed to either vise type and am wondering if anyone who has used both can make recommendations. I do like the looks of a tail vise but not sure if it will be as functional. Appreciate your collective thoughts. Thanks, DGW |
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257836 | Matt Williams | 2016‑01‑31 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
I'm really looking forward to this topic, I have had my future bench top sitting in the way in my shop for at least 4 years now and need to get it going too! Matt Williams SKILL SAW – A portable cutting tool used to make studs too short. On Saturday, January 30, 2016 5:29 PM, David G. Wittner |
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257837 | dcarr10760@g... | 2016‑01‑31 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
I'm sure you will get a lot of answers, but here's mine. When I was in college in the early 1980s, I bought a small Sjoberg's cabinetmaker's bench for the princely sum of $349.00. It was the single most expensive thing I'd ever purchased, except for my car, a 1975 VW Superbeetle. The car is long gone, but I still have and use the bench. It was their hobbiest models and just 4 feet long. I bought it because with the top removed I could fit it into the Superbeetle, and it was nice enough looking that was not objectionable looking to my girlfriend/fiancée/first wife/ex-wife, who let me keep it in our studio apartment living room area. This bench has a Scandinavian style shoulder vise and a proper tail vise, both with wooden screws. Sjoberg has abandoned the design since which is too bad. The bench is a little small for cabinetmaking, and I always dreamed of making the larger Tage Frid or Frank Klaus versions, but never have. I am a hobbiest, but I've built housefuls of furniture, trim molding and other small and not so small projects on the bench over the last 35 or so years. So on to the vises. Cast my vote for the tail vise. I use it constantly. Far more than the shoulder vise. It's probably a good exercise to imagine building a small project and how you would hold the workpieces as you go. First off, dimensioning stock- the tail vise makes clamping boards for scrubbing, and planing, in my case up to about 52 inches, between the dogs easy. When face- planing I like the stock held firm, rather than just using a stop, so the tail vise is a big help there. It's useful for edge jointing narrow stock as well, just set on edge between the dogs. I made a long, simple shooting board for edge jointing that's held between the dogs and uses the bench top itself as a bed for a jointer. Makes joining panels for doors and such a snap. It's also useful for disassembling face frames and the like, by reversing the dogs and applying force against the M&T joint while you apply heat or steam or muscle. Of course everything I do with it can be done in other ways, it's a matter of work habits and the capabilities of whatever vise you choose. Much of what I use the tail vise for could be done with a wagon vise, and if I were to build a new bench, I would consider one. The shoulder vise does sag a bit now (so do I) and the gap formed when it is opened allows thin stock to spring a bit which makes starting a plane tricky. A wagon vise would fix that. There are a thousand ways to use the vise faces too. I've never lined mine with leather as seems to be the current trend and they are worn and lined with a lifetime's use (like me). I really cannot imagine what, more than this, I would use an end vise for, given the way this bench has formed my amateur capabilities, maybe holding panels or planing small stock at a right angle to the bench (feels wrong). Undoubtedly they're useful, but not in ways that are evident to me. Of course much of what I do could be done with the forward dog of an end vise, but I'd worry about it racking all the time. Good luck with the decision! Best Regards, David Carroll Sent from my iPad |
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257838 | Matthew Turner <turnershells@h...> | 2016‑01‑31 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
The front vise is way more useful if you incorporate a sliding board jack into the design of your bench. Then you have a support point for working on larger boards, without having to balance stock in vise jaws. Freestanding board jacks are also an option, but the sliding board jack seems more robust to me. And compact. Essentially, you need to include a groove under the front edge of the bench for the top of the jack to run in, and have the front rail far enough forward so the jack can run on a batten along the top. The tail vise with dog holes gets the most use on a bench, I find. But I don't see why you wouldn't use both on your bench. I'd finish the tail vise first, and add the front vise later, since the tail vise and dog holes are more of an integral part of the benchtop. The vise I use most frequently is a 3 1/2" jaw blacksmiths' leg vise. The trick is to set up the design of the bench so the tail vise will clamp a block of wood to mount the vise, and extend one of the bench feet to socket the vise leg. I eventually put threaded brass inserts into the benchtop to bolt direct. Smartest thing I ever did in my shop was to layout every chisel and screwdriver set when I made the back tray and have sockets for all of them. Otherwise wasted space, but keeps everything organized. Holdfasts will clamp stuff that otherwise cannot be clamped. If you layout the holes when you build the top. you can worry about finding good holdfasts later. My 2 cents. |
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257840 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2016‑01‑31 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
David asks one of those questions to the porch. There will be dozens of interesting answers, and I’ll be interested in what transpires. But, you know, you already have the answer. That is, you have the answer, no one here does. Its a bit like asking "What clothes shall I wear today?” The only person that can answer that is yourself. Are you going out to a dinner party, the cinema (movie, Paddy), out hiking, camping, deer stalking, going to the shops (mall, Paddy) There is a tendency for people to write books about benches, make a living making pronouncements, and not much is relevant to your need for a bench. Forget the bench for a minute, and think about what type of work you’ll be doing. All those different bench types exist because they are the best tools for the particular job they were made for. There’s always talk of great looking vices, jacks, sliding boards, tail vices and so on. But what do YOU intent do do with it? So are you cabinet making, joining chairs, making boxes, making bookcases, corner cupboards, case work, carving, musical instruments (bowed) musical instruments (struck) green wood ?? I out a tool tray into my last bench. I wish I hadn’t. But I’m glad I made the bottom panel easily removable, for when working with chairs, its often handy to drop the legs down into the gap where the tool tray lives. I put dog holes across the width so the top can function as a references surface, and some wooden dogs with folding wedges can be used for panel glue ups and work holding of all sorts. I haven’t installed a tail vice, though I was enamoured of a couple of articles describing wonderful benches. I haven’t missed it apart from once or twice, and used an alternative. The ‘Roubo’ has had a lot of press lately, but why? - its a just a good solid lump of timber that forms the base for all manner of other things. My present most used bench isn’t long enough - why? because its as long as it could be when I made it. It’s OK. Nothing much that I make these days will be over 6 foot in length, at least, not once its cut to size. On my first bench I followed a plan in a book that told me it was the standard for all benches. So it has a front planing board as a surface, and a top which is much too thin to remain stable. I know better now. It doesn’t suit my work. At our boat build we accomplished wonders with g-cramps - oh, and a couple of Phil’s holdfasts. SO, to get back the question and end this rambling. More or less any bench with dog holes can be used for more or less anything. with or without a vice. You will be happier with a scruffy bench that suits what you do, and if you do ‘everything’ then go for a plain bench top, with dog holes, Just one opinion - with more questions.. Richard Wilson Northumbrian Galoot |
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257841 | Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> | 2016‑01‑31 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
I made my bench out of the material that I had and installed vises where convection typically dictated. I do most everything imaginable on my bench save instrument making(so far!) and I find a whole to get things done. It is not particularly attractive, so I learned to like rustic! Spike Sent from the seat of my pants |
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257842 | Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> | 2016‑01‑31 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Hi David, a long time ago in what seems to be a land far away, but is only my memory, I built a bench. At least 1984 seems a long time ago. I built it to the Tage Frid design as published in an issue of FWW I had come across. I adjusted the plans to deal with the length and thickness of the construction grade eucalyptus timber I had to hand, and with the fact that the construction drawings were in feet and inches and the timber was dimensioned in millimetres. Not surprisingly despite my best efforts and deepest concentration, the components didn't come together easily. I put this down to insufficient attention to detail, shaved away here, packed out and up there and came up with a bench which has served me well. It is undersized as compared to the drawings: shorter and narrower than I have often wished, it has the tool tray which divides opinion into pro and anti with the passion of politics or religion, and these days looks generally pretty beaten up. Its a working bench and I have used it for everything I have done which needed a bench, which compared to some on the porch doesn't seem to have been a great deal. I'm happy with the tail vise and the single row of dog holes. I have learned to cope with the European style vise at the left front of the bench. You only walk into the projecting steel vise screw once, though this is best done when alone so you can clutch your crutch while you weep. Once I had done that (learnt) I came to like that vise as well. If I had my time again I would do away with the tool tray and have a wider working surface, because the tray seems to me to be just a place where shavings, dust and discarded screws, hardware and small tools accumulate / hide. About 2 years after building the bench I found the later issue of FWW which contained all of the corrections to the dimensions given in the initial construction drawings. The assembly difficulties weren't entirely down to me, though no doubt I made my own contributions. By then it didn't matter, but I copied the corrections and put them with the drawings for whoever one day acquires my FWW accumulation and decides that he or she would like a 'traditional bench'. The only changes or improvements since 1984 have been some holdfast mounts: initially for the Record / Woden screw holdfasts and more recently for a pair of traditional holdfasts which Phil of the Far North generously gifted me. At the end of the day, I'm with Richard the Yorkshireman: decide what you think you are going to do most of, then build the bench which most suits your needs, the available materials and your budget, then get on with it. And then don't be too precious about the bench: it is an aid, not an end in itself. When I look at photos of immaculate, unmarked benches I admire them but I wonder how their owners do it. My bench displays small holes, cuts, a few chop marks and quite a few paint spots. One day, if I live long enough I'll scrape and re-finish the surface (maybe). For now I work on it reasonably often and the rest of the time its the surface I look to most often as the most likely resting place of whatever it is that I can't find at that moment. If it isn't on the bench my problem is just beginning. And if your first bench doesn't suit your needs, use it to build one which does. I have used mine to build three similar benches for friends over the years, each a little closer to my idea of perfection, but I have never felt that those improvements were enough to lead me to ditch my old bench and start again. But for perhaps 20 years I have had a spare set of hardware tucked away, just in case YMMV of course. Regards, Tony Blanks Hobart, Tasmania |
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257843 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
On Jan 31, 2016, at 5:43 PM, yorkshireman@y... wrote: > I put a tool tray into my last bench. I wish I hadn’t. I thought a tool tray was good idea for most times but I didn’t want to commit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/24444897980/in/album-72157654306631774/ I have only removed it perhaps 6 times in 7 years, but when I needed both sides of the bench it was very helpful Ed Minch |
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257844 | "David G. Wittner" <dwittne@u...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
This is essentially the bench I have now, without the board jack. Find I use the end vice as a tail vise more than for clamping within the jaws but then again, my end vise is really a large front vise with a pad that goes full width.... if that makes sense. I truly appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I've thought about what kind of work I do, and well, right now it's not much of anything. When I get back to the shop for something other than cleaning or construction I tend to be an all of the above woodworker, i.e., case goods, chairs, round stuff, hand and power tools. I do have a second bench in the shop with the face/end vise configuration. May need to fight my kid for it since it's technically his bench. Luckily he's 11 so I can still take him, this week... Anything in my shop is working and like me, not very pretty. Present bench has nicks, small cuts, gouges, even a wee slice from an encounter with a chainsaw! The really ugly jobs involving overspray, glue and the like take place on my outfeed table which is a 7'x 42" chunk o' bowling lane. Thanks again guys (and gals) really appreciate the feedback. DGW (in unusually mild CNY) -----Original Message----- From: Ed Minch [mailto:ruby1638@a...] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 7:33 PM To: yorkshireman@y... Cc: David G. Wittner; OldTools List Subject: Re: [OldTools] End vise or tail vise? On Jan 31, 2016, at 5:43 PM, yorkshireman@y... wrote: > I put a tool tray into my last bench. I wish I hadn't. I thought a tool tray was good idea for most times but I didn't want to commit: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/24444897980/in/album-7215765430663177 4/ I have only removed it perhaps 6 times in 7 years, but when I needed both sides of the bench it was very helpful Ed Minch |
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257846 | Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
David asked .. “if anyone who has used both (vise types) can make recommendation” The answer is simply - you need BOTH. If you plan to build furniture using handtools, then both the shoulder(face) vise and the tail vise form an intricate team in the work holding process. Yes, I know that some have gone with a tail vise, but this is a personal decision that is almost unfathonable to me. In short, the shoulder/face vise is used (in conjuction with a sliding deadman) to plane the edges of long boards. The tail vise is used to hold boards when planing faces. I addition, I have a Moxon vise to raise the boards higher for dovetailing. About 3 years ago, after 20 years handtooling with a bench I put together when mainly using power tools, using a variety of vises on-and-off over the years, I built a Roubo-style with a leg vise (that I built - cheap) and an expensive wagon vise (from BenchCrafted). What I like about my bench, compared to the old one, is that work holding is a million years easier. For some, a fancy-shmancy bench is a garage queen. For me it is a tool that gets used all the time. I made it nice because it gave me pleasure to do so. I do not plan on making another. Some prefer a double screw wood face vise, some a quick release metal vise. I find the leg vise does a great job and is efficient. You can use any vise for the tail vise. I chose a wagon vise as it saves space. I’ve never regretted spending on the BC. There is a record of my build lower down this web index: http://www.int hewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/index.html">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTo ols/index.html I hope that may be helpful in your build. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TooltrayWithaDifference_html _m5de0b7e3.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/TooltrayWithaDifferen ce_html_m5de0b7e3.jpg http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/ModsfortheMoxon_html_7ad02ebc.jpg Regards from Perth Derek |
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257847 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
I've been wondering why this is an either or question. > David asked .. “if anyone who has used both (vise types) can make > recommendation” > The answer is simply - you need BOTH. Good point. If I could only have one, it would be the leg vise. I find it most essential. But it is possible to do anything without vises at all. Look at the bench this fellow is sitting on to rip a board. It's the first photo in the cabinet making section: http://www.antiquetools.com/viet/ A Viet-Namese cabinet maker can do everything on one of these, everything. I have two or three of these. Mine are heavier, with 2X4 legs and braces, and a 4 inch thick top. Two are 6 feet long, and another is 8 feet long. The long one has a bench hook. I have one at Sutter's Fort. I was able to document it for American use since St. Roy featured one in an early segment of The Woodwright's Shop. He called it a "planing bench." Mike in Woodland |
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257848 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
On a tight budget, my practical, non-decorative approach was to auger holes into the face skirt of my Sellers that match my dog holes on top. My "dogs" are maple stair balusters cut to various lengths. Two dogs in the face plus the plank "leg vice" let me hold anything from 1' to 8', and any thickness. I rationalize it by saying I was green, and don't want to risk using metal because of blade risk. ..... Cheapskate bench cheat#9: I bought some cheap 48" F clamps on the 'bay that turned out to be real crap....at first it looked like $30 wasted. But..... - cut one 48" bar to 6" and 12" lengths - drilled a hole across the ends of each - put bolt through hole - slip big flat washer over that bolt, bit of framing wire as a keep... ....I now have 4 Poor Man's JUUMA holdfasts, for less than the price of 1. Slip the bar up through a dog hole, slide the jaw on and bobs your uncle, infinitely adjustable, don't need to be banged like a holdfast, won't slip or slop, easy as kiss my hand. I work a lot of green oak, so I spend a LOT of time scrubbing from irregular splits. I used these this weekend for that, and they were awesome...... I'll make a couple into Wonder Dogs next time I get the welder out. MPf. |
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257849 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Derek Cohen |
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257851 | Mark Pfeifer <markpfeifer@i...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
I have a split top English ("sellers") bench with the tray between the tops. I love the tray. Why? I'm an anal retentive neatnik and I need to do a rough clean up every hour.....don't like shuffling around in piles of shavings, and having 30 tools out. The tools are in the tray only for short periods, like when I'm adjusting withholding etc. Usually they sit on the other bench top beyond the tray, safe from the limitations of my coordination. Mine is more of a "shavings and sawdust tray". It has a full width flue between the tops, with a Rubbermaid container under the bench. Beyond the flue is a ramp (German style) for shoveling shavings out. So I shove shavings into the tray rather than onto the floor. And depending on waste type and volume I can clear the bench in a second. Dust works better down the flue, shavings, especially scrub shavings, go out the ramp.... MPf. |
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257850 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2016‑02‑01 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Mark any pics? Ed Minch |
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257868 | Chuck Taylor | 2016‑02‑02 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Tony in Tasmania wrote: > When I look at photos of immaculate, unmarked > benches I admire them but I wonder how their owners do it. Very simple: I have a "dirty bench" (my old bench) and a "clean bench" (my new bench). I don't show off pictures of my dirty bench. :-) Also, I use sacrificial scraps of wood to protect the surface of the clean bench when needed. But maybe that's just because the clean bench is still new. BTW, my vote is for a tail vise. Besides the usual function of a tail vise or wagon vise, I get a lot of use out of the tail vise opening on the front of the bench for holding small work. You don't get that from a wagon vise, and an end vise seems a bit out of the way to me. YMMV. Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle, USA |
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257872 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2016‑02‑02 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
> On Jan 31, 2016, at 21:37 , Derek Cohen |
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257873 | Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> | 2016‑02‑02 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Adam Very nice piece and great technique all around - always helpful to see someone else go through the steps. Why does the mallet have a 2 foot handle? Ed Minch |
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257874 | David Linnabary <davidl@b...> | 2016‑02‑02 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
I build the Frid style bench from a FWW book on the Small Shop back in about 1990, the tail vise is a familiar friend on a somewhat undersize bench compared to what many are currently building. I don't find it limiting, if anything, the tail and shoulder vise team up for 7 different combinations of ways to hold wood. I'm pleased to say my tail vise has only the slightest perceptible sag after a quarter century which is a lot better than I'm doing. :) David in Sunbury, Ohio |
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257876 | "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> | 2016‑02‑02 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
> On Feb 2, 2016, at 01:36 , Ed Minch |
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257896 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2016‑02‑04 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Hi David: The question was originally about the tail vise, but many other excellent points have been raised, so this is now really just a... General Bench Discussion I am currently using my 4th bench, so I can honestly say I have tried pretty much everything for extended periods of time --ie for years, not just a couple of weeks. Bench style: As someone stated earlier, it really depends on what you tend to make and do with your bench. There really isn't a one size fits all solution to this. It all boils down to the size of the stuff you tend to do and how you work. If you are making huge mortise/tenon entry doors all the time vs someone who makes desktop humidors, the needs are very different. Workbenches have to be heavy (immobile), reasonably flat, and strong, and hold the work safely and securely. For me, a large quick release Record front vise is perfect- it holds the size of stuff I typically work on solidly (6 feet long or less). . Holdfasts are also very handy, but tend to eventually fail over the years if you use them alot (the holes gradually enlarge, and then starts the slippage). I prefer vises to clamps, but whatever floats your boat, eh? Tool Tray- My third bench did not get a tool tray... Unfortunately I got sucked into what woodworking guru's were saying about tool trays and bench heights, so I made that third bench way too short and without a tool tray! So tool trays are a must have some people, but you may be different. So pay no mind to the famous guys who claim they're for hamster nests- know yourself and make it the way you actually work. If you make a chisel cut, then put on the protective cap back on, and put it back into your chisel roll after every cut, well, the tool tray may not be for you.... A valuable lesson: guru's don't know jack shit about you or how you work. Know thyself, and build accordingly. So yes, you should consider both a front and a tail vise, but, depending on what you typically make, you could conceivably do without either (with appropriate design considerations). A tail vise is a pain to install after the fact, so I would definitely advise you to plan carefully on that front. Front and leg vises don't need too much roughing in, so it is easy to design your bench such that you can fit them in easily without compromise if you decide you want to. Cheers from Waterloo Claudio |
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257897 | Chuck Taylor | 2016‑02‑04 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Claudio wrote: > A tail vise is a pain to install after the fact... Having just finished building a bench with a tail vise, I can attest that a tail vise is a pain to install, period. Like everything else, it would probably be easier the second or third time around. Still, for me it was worth the effort. YMMV. Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle |
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257908 | Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> | 2016‑02‑05 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
Yup agree, tail vise can be very handy. Holding flat stock is dead easy between dogs. Plus it is a fast way of holding your bench appliances rigidly. Lots of uses, but there are many other options if you don't like it. Cheers Claudio |
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257914 | Matthew Turner <turnershells@h...> | 2016‑02‑06 | Re: End vise or tail vise? |
The first bench I built back in 1989 was from the Woodsmith plans - a small magazine with a 5' bench that had storage underneath. They had a great way of making the tail vise and dog hole arrangement, doing it in maple butcher block style with five pieces about 3" wide. The center board had all the dog holes dadoed, including one in the opposite direction. The boards on either side were glued to it for strength. Then the whole assembly had 3/4" grooves cut at equal heights, and splines were used to glue the 4th and 5th boards. But the part with the opposing dog hole was cut off first, and floated in the splines to form the clamping part with a steel screw. Then the front apron was glued on, plus 3/4" butcher block top and tool tray. Overall a very easy way to make the assembly, but not something you could really do after the fact. What I find really neat was the reprint of the forgeron & Cie. catalogue, which had a similar sort of assembly as a sawhorse. IIRC they called it a german piano-maker's bench or something similar. Still want to build a pair of those for carcass work. Matt Turner (whose second bench is on "Galoot-a-vision") |
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