Galoots

Does anyone know where I can buy quartersawn beech in the US?

In the near term I would like some small 4/4 pieces to replace broken
wedges, and fix a moving fillister fence. In the future I'd like to
make a jack plane and a jointer plane, and need some thicker beech
(say 12/4 at least).

Thank you,
Chris

Woodfinder.com has 3 places in PA, one in Tx. I put in Quartersawn beech as
the search term.

   Timber Trails <http:/
/www.woodfinder.com/listings/012950.php>   Grove
 City      Bailey Wood Products, Inc.
<http://www.woodfinder.c
om/listings/004342.php>   Kempton      A to Z
Exotic Hardwoods <http:/
/www.woodfinder.com/listings/014805.php>
   Philadelphia

Hope this helps

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 6:38 PM, Christopher Dunn <
christopherdunn123@g...> wrote:

> Galoots
>
> Does anyone know where I can buy quartersawn beech in the US?
>
> In the near term I would like some small 4/4 pieces to replace broken
> wedges, and fix a moving fillister fence. In the future I'd like to
> make a jack plane and a jointer plane, and need some thicker beech
> (say 12/4 at least).
>
> Thank you,
> Chris
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
Kirk Eppler
Principal Engineer
PP&TD
eppler.kirk@g...
650 225-3911

Galoots

My dad lives in Maine and said the state is full of beech trees. He talked
to a boat builder friend of his who said nobody cuts beech because nobody
wants it. I struck out in my usual lumber yards, all in New England where I
live. I've got a lead from a sawmill in New Hampshire who said they
sometimes get 8/4 beech, but it's yet to pan out. I'll widen the search
area and start with the three suggestions you found Kirk.

The suggestion of using a beat up wooden plane as a donor is also a good
one. If there is one thing the antique shops have around here in abundance
is beat up wooden planes. They'll probably pay me to take them off their
hands.

Thank you for your help and suggestions,
Chris

I was in the same place about ten years ago Christopher is now. I
wanted beech for planemaking and couldn't find any. I finally decided
to buy some logs and have them sawn. Not having learned my lesson, a
few years later I also cut some beech on my own property and cut it
into plane billets.

Lumber yards don't stock beech because it's a pain in the ass and
almost nobody wants it. While drying, beech would rather turn into a
hand grenade than make nice flat boards. Try kiln-drying beech
sometime. I did that once. It also doesn't rive well, if at all, so
sawing it's the only way to go. I tried riving it once too, I got
stories about that. Oh, it also attracts worms like crazy, so keep it
covered and completely dry at all times.. I lost a whole log's worth
of boards when the cover blew off in a storm and I didn't realize it
for a couple of days.

The only method that worked for me was to cut it as close to quartered
as possible on the band mill, then cut the boards into the size/length
plane billets I needed. I sealed the ends of each billet with wax and
let them sit in my garage for a while. I think it's been eight years
now. I may try to joint and plane some of them soon.

Want my advice? Screw beech, go for yellow birch. That's a proper,
well-behaved wood. I've got a bunch of that drying as well and it's
been a dream to work with. It works just as well as beech and has
similar mechanical properties which makes it a good choice for planes.
It was America's planemakers' first choice for plane wood until they
switched to beech in the early 19th century for whatever reason. Why'd
that happen again? I wish I could have the time back I spent messing
around with beech.

Back to my hole underneath the porch.

Josh in CT



On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Christopher Dunn
 wrote:
> Galoots
>
> My dad lives in Maine and said the state is full of beech trees. He talked
> to a boat builder friend of his who said nobody cuts beech because nobody
> wants it. I struck out in my usual lumber yards, all in New England where I
> live. I've got a lead from a sawmill in New Hampshire who said they
> sometimes get 8/4 beech, but it's yet to pan out. I'll widen the search
> area and start with the three suggestions you found Kirk.
>
> The suggestion of using a beat up wooden plane as a donor is also a good
> one. If there is one thing the antique shops have around here in abundance
> is beat up wooden planes. They'll probably pay me to take them off their
> hands.
>
> Thank you for your help and suggestions,
> Chris
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
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SNIP:

It also doesn't rive well, if at all, so
sawing it's the only way to go. I tried riving it once too, I got
stories about that. 

I sent my go-forth-into-sylvan-glade note before I read Josh’s. My comment on
riving was conceptual, and based on on riving red oak (well) and old maple
(badly).

Josh’s email is based on actual experience, with actual beech. So I’d give it
more heft than mine.

I’d like to carve “screw beech use yellow birch” into the side of the inaugural
Pfeifer Patent Heavy Iron Scrub Plane, but the damned thing is made of beech and
it doesn’t carve worth a turd.

I've bought 8/4 beech here in Sacramento, and not too long ago.
I can check with a couple of suppliers if you would like.

Mike in Sacto

Storm wrote: "The best source for small amounts of quartersawn beech are old
wooden
planes.  Sometimes they are so damaged that you can get them for a few 
bucks."


I scavanged a broken Ikea-esque chair on the street, turned out to be beech, and
I made one of the best wooden screws I've made out of one of the legs.
Stockpiled a bunch of rungs and legs for more screws. For years I've used beech
from a scavanged "made in Yugoslavia" knife board for repair patches and small
items. For a full-sized bench plane body these would be too small, but you could
get plenty of molding plane wedges out of chair legs, even bench plane wedges if
you didn't mind glue-jointing two pieces together side-by-side. Maybe a
spokeshave from a leg. Even a small plane, if you found a big table.


The old Clark & Williams website had an article about how beech was the best
wood for plane bodies, with lots of explanation and numbers about how it
responds to the climate. I cant' offer anything pro or con to their opinion, but
there isn't a better opinion on the subject. Getting beech is the problem: even
if you find a lumberyard offering quartersawn beech you aren't likely to get a
true radial cut, and you will still have to season it for the traditional year-
per-inch because beech apparently doesn't settle down without time, even after
kiln drying. Its a circular problem: American sawyers won't take the time and
trouble to season beech properly because there is no demand for it, and there is
no demand for it because it isn't available properly seasoned.


A friend of mine, Jim Croft, wrote a 96-page article on "Finding Suitable Wood
for Book Boards and Related Considerations" in a recent collection (note that
this is Vol. II of a series):

http://thelegacypress.com/suave-mechanicals-
vol-2.html">http://thelegacypress.com/suave-mechanicals-vol-2.html

or

http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Mechancials-History-Bookbinding-Mechanicals
/dp/0979797489/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y/187-5017176-2329560">http://www.amazon.com
/Suave-Mechancials-History-Bookbinding-
Mechanicals/dp/0979797489/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y/187-5017176-2329560

Among other things he talks a lot about beech, about true radial as opposed to
"quartersawn," and a huge amount that goes far beyond just book boards. I think
any woodworker would learn by reading the piece. The book is expensive and the
run was short, but interlibrary loan should produce a copy.


Tom Conroy


[By the way, if you buy a copy I get a royalty, since I have an article in the
same volume. Just sayin'...But Jim's article really is as rich as I say. Check
it out on ILL if you don't want to pay me a royalty.]

For a historical perspective (hey, I am a history buff) the ancient Romans
used beech for their planes.  Roman planes, I am sure were made of beech-
at least the ones that have been found in various places.  Yes, 2000 plus
year old planes, some of which still had some wood remants!

  I know that some ancient Roman relic planes have been recovered from
Egypt which had  beech still present that was identified positively.    I
know that they found some in Germany not too long ago (maybe around 2001 or
so), and of course there was a famous hoard that was found in a well near
Reading in England of (I can't remember exactly) maybe 60 or 70 tools in
the 1890's?  Plus there have been several old Roman ship wrecks with
perfectly preserved wood (wood does not rot under constant conditions of
moisture, esp if the oxygen levels are low- witness old Greek and Roman era
wharves and sea walls and bridge foundations that still have intact
pilings, although all the above water stuff is long gone)
  During my various visits to Europe for business, I have done some museum
and tourist things, viewing several different sculptures, funerary markers,
paintings, frescos, and even mosaics showing various Roman tools, including
wood planes. It is remarkable how similar they are to modern planes, except
that they used a transverse iron rivet across the escapement rather then
the typical sidewall groove for wedging the single blade (I don't think any
planes used a double iron until the early 1800's).  They tended to have a
York pitch (ie more than the typical 45 degrees, if I recall correctly).  I
recall seeing a relic that really reminded me of a mitre plane, with iron
walls and wood infil.

 So we have at least a 2000 year history of beech use for planes, and if
there was something better, I think you can safely bet we would probably
know about it by now!  I am not sure, but I think the Romans were following
the Greeks, who also used beech for their planes, but I am not sure about
that.
Cheers from sweltering Waterloo
Claudio

For a historical perspective (hey, I am a history buff) the ancient Romans
used beech for their planes.  Roman planes, I am sure were made of beech-
at least the ones that have been found in various places.  Yes, 2000 plus
year old planes, some of which still had some wood remants!

  I know that some ancient Roman relic planes have been recovered from
Egypt which had  beech still present that was identified positively.    I
know that they found some in Germany not too long ago (maybe around 2001 or
so), and of course there was a famous hoard that was found near Reading in
England of (I can't remember exactly) maybe 60 or 70 tools in the 18?  Plus
there have been several old Roman ship wrecks with perfectly preserved wood
(wood does not rot under constant conditions of moisture, esp if the oxygen
levels are low- witness old Greek and Roman era wharves and sea walls and
bridge foundations that still have intact pilings, although all the above
water stuff is long gone)
  During my various visits to Europe for business, I have done some museum
and tourist things, viewing several different sculptures, funerary markers,
paintings, frescos, and even mosaics showing various Roman tools, including
wood planes. It is remarkable how similar they are to modern planes, except
that they used a transverse iron rivet across the escapement rather then
the typical sidewall groove for wedging the single blade (I don't think any
planes used a double iron until the early 1800's).  They tended to have a
York pitch (ie more than the typical 45 degrees, if I recall correctly).  I
recall seeing a relic that really reminded me of a mitre plane, with iron
walls and wood infil.

 So we have at least a 2500 year history of beech use for planes, and if
there was something better, I think you can safely bet we would probably
know about it by now!
Cheers from sweltering Waterloo
Claudio

I'm no expert, but I've read that of the old Roman weapons caches that were
found were bronze cast offs that were obsoleted by early steel.

Maybe we found the beech ones as relics because they kept the better birch ones?

LOL joking 



> On Jul 28, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Claudio DeLorenzi  wrote:
> 
> For a historical perspective (hey, I am a history buff) the ancient Romans
> used beech for their planes.  Roman planes, I am sure were made of beech-
> at least the ones that have been found in various places.  Yes, 2000 plus
> year old planes, some of which still had some wood remants!
> 
>  I know that some ancient Roman relic planes have been recovered from
> Egypt which had  beech still present that was identified positively.    I
> know that they found some in Germany not too long ago (maybe around 2001 or
> so), and of course there was a famous hoard that was found in a well near
> Reading in England of (I can't remember exactly) maybe 60 or 70 tools in
> the 1890's?  Plus there have been several old Roman ship wrecks with
> perfectly preserved wood (wood does not rot under constant conditions of
> moisture, esp if the oxygen levels are low- witness old Greek and Roman era
> wharves and sea walls and bridge foundations that still have intact
> pilings, although all the above water stuff is long gone)
>  During my various visits to Europe for business, I have done some museum
> and tourist things, viewing several different sculptures, funerary markers,
> paintings, frescos, and even mosaics showing various Roman tools, including
> wood planes. It is remarkable how similar they are to modern planes, except
> that they used a transverse iron rivet across the escapement rather then
> the typical sidewall groove for wedging the single blade (I don't think any
> planes used a double iron until the early 1800's).  They tended to have a
> York pitch (ie more than the typical 45 degrees, if I recall correctly).  I
> recall seeing a relic that really reminded me of a mitre plane, with iron
> walls and wood infil.
> 
> So we have at least a 2000 year history of beech use for planes, and if
> there was something better, I think you can safely bet we would probably
> know about it by now!  I am not sure, but I think the Romans were following
> the Greeks, who also used beech for their planes, but I am not sure about
> that.
> Cheers from sweltering Waterloo
> Claudio
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
> 
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

Hi Josh and Porch People and GiGs ( Galoots in General)

​Re: Son of a Beech​

​I tried some local farmer cut air dried beech about 20 years ago, and did
not like it at all...ornery stuff
​I am NOT a wood snob, but North American beech I tried was hard to work
with hand tools, whereas European beech was easy (I bought some 8 qrtr
recently to try it out again- seems totally different, but it just may be
the actual specimens I had to work with).

My impression: the North American Beech is redder and wiry, compared to the
lighter salmon-orange- tan colored steamed European beach I tried (maybe
the steaming? I dunno).

  Our local supplier of premium hardwoods (http://www.amwoodinc.com/">http://www.amwoodinc.com/) in
Cambridge Ontario only sells the steamed European variety (for musical
instrument parts).

​Claudio​

Re: roman tools  more

I think the iron age started a couple hundred years before  the tribes
around the Tiber first organized into anything that might be considered the
true start of Rome.  Bronze was pretty much already relegated to the
decorative arts and utensils by that time.  If I recall correctly, most of
the  Roman tools found to date have been iron (chisels , hatchets, ax,
planes, saws etc).  Some of the stone slabbing saws were bronze (copper and
tin), using sand and crushed emery to abrade through stone etc to get big
but manageable chunks for sculpture, buildings,  etc.

I think they copied the ancient Egyptian methodology- who had also actually
mounted gemstones on some of their stone cutting saws(diamond point, haha)
but who also traditionally used the 'sanding' technique for stone cutting.
After the dawn of the republic, they had a huge political military
industrial complex with major mining and smelting and manufacturing
operations that were not matched again until the industrial revolution.
During the centuries of Empire, slave labor and multiple technical
'acquisitions' from conquered people allowed rapid implementation of
newfound knowledge and expertise in metallurgy, engineering,  and
architecture.    This organization and unification through language (Latin)
and the rule of law allowed for rapid dissemination of this new
information- the first info-tech revolution.
Remember that Caesar (Julius) (and his army) built a bridge over the Danube
with just wood in just 10 days during his first attempt to "pacify" the
Germanic tribes so he could cross the water and "enter with dignity" .  We
can do it with pontoons now,  and they knew about pontoons then, but he
wanted a bridge.   Of wood.  Cool, eh?   Hmm,   Rome then had pretty much
the same power and influence as the United States of today.

Ok so I am way off topic here, but what the hell, this is the porch,
right?...  and I'm sitting here with a nice beverage in the early evening,
rocking in my chair (seriously, I am) and chatting...
Claudio

Claudio DeLorenzi wrote:
>
>For a historical perspective (hey, I am a history buff) the ancient Romans used
beech for their planes.  Roman planes, I am sure were made of beech- at least
the ones that have been found in various places.  Yes, 2000 plus year old
planes, some of which still had some wood remants!...So we have at least a 2500
year history of beech use for planes, and if there was something better, I think
you can safely bet we would probably know about it by now!<


There's another point to be remembered about the use of beech in European
planes: beech was the General Utility Hardwood in northern Europe, at least from
the Middle Ages onward, and Europe had far less variety in woods than America
does.
There's a line of demarcation through southern France and northern Italy or
Switzerland: north of the line they have mixed hardwood forests with beech
predominating, south of the line they have softwood forests. This was probably
true back into Roman times, though I can't document it. Early in the middle ages
you had a lot of oak in England, maybe it predominated then, but shipbuilding
and charcoal burning for ironworking shifted the balance to beech in England.
You didn't have a lot of selection in Eurpoean woods apart from oak, beech, and
softwoods---  a little walnut, some domestic cherry and fruitwoods, a bit of
ash, birch in Scandinavia, but no locust, no wild cherry, no hickory, no maple,
no profusion of species. Its all down to the Ice Ages, I gather: the ice caps
scoured Europe to the dirt but didn't come as far south in America.

So in most of Europe, beech was the default hardwood. Still is. Furniture in
Northern Europe was made of beech before tropical hardwoods started coming in
(oak in England); afterwards, it was veneered on beech. In Southern Europe,
softwoods were treated the same way, except maybe painted on softwood like the
gaudy "cassoni" of Venice's great days, painted on "cipresso." I know about this
because medieval book boards were beech in Germany, oak in England, (maybe)
walnut in France, softwood in Spain, "cipresso" in Italy. By the 19th century
beech was what you used for planes in Europe because it was what you had.

In America, yeah, a lot of planes were birch. If its what they had around. But
not all of them by any means. I'd be surprised if there weren't just as many of
hard maple. You use what you have around and is economical. Maybe you use the
best of what you have, but you use what you have.

That old story about using the mechanically best wood for the different parts of
a Windsor chair, like the Deacon's One-Horse Shay? That was only in America, not
in England. And then they painted over the whole thing so that you couldn't tell
what the wood was.

By the way, I found the Clark & Williams article about the virtues of beech:


http://www.planemaker.co
m/articles_beech.html

Old Street Tool's website is still right there, they just aren't taking new
orders until their backlog is cleared. If you don't know this site backwards and
forwards, well, you should.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley

> ​I am NOT a wood snob, but North American beech I tried was hard to 
> work
> with hand tools, whereas European beech was easy (I bought some 8 qrtr
> recently to try it out again- seems totally different, but it just may 
> be
> the actual specimens I had to work with).

I suspect you had a problem lot of beech.  I haven't had these problems 
with
the beech I've bought from a local supplier.  Still have a short piece 
of
8/4 stock that I will soon be using to repair an Eastlake child's 
platform
rocker -- that will all be hand tool work.

Mike in Sacto

Thanks for the Old Street Tool, Inc. URL.  Very informative article,
and of course I had to look at their products.

Mike in Sacto

Galoots

Thank you for all your input regrading beech. I'm still running down a
few leads, but If I ever find a source for beech in the US I'll let
you know. If not, birch doesn't sound like a bad alternative, or
perhaps maple.

Thanks again,
Chris

PS: The Old Street Tools article was great!

OK, I'll call my lumber yard today and find what beech they have.
On birch, well, the birch used in northern Europe is silver birch,
and that is very thin on the ground here, and 8/4 silver birch
is apparently not available at all in North America.

Mike in Sacto