OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

255277 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2015‑07‑01 Stamps
GGs,

I'm doing the carving (lots of carving) for the Hadley chest I'm building
in a class with Peter Follansbee.

https://picasaweb.google.com/108901587400063562323/CTHistSocietyJoinedC
hest?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCMDouOG_0NnOowE&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb
.google.com/108901587400063562323/CTHistSocietyJoinedChest?authuser=0&authkey=Gv
1sRgCMDouOG_0NnOowE&feat=directlink

or

http://bit.ly/1JrRMXD

The center panels have small stamps used for decorative purposes.  As with
everything else in this class, most of us are rolling our own.  I made a
couple of them over the past few days and thought someone might be
interested.  Here's the link to a couple pics:

https://picasaweb.google.com/108901587400063562323/HadleyChest?authuser
=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNTxq6WumK6sBQ&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/10
8901587400063562323/HadleyChest?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNTxq6WumK6sBQ&feat=dir
ectlink

or

http://bit.ly/1T3WgIg

The ones with the rectangular projections are for stippling the background
around the vines and flowers, while the Maltese cross and the "flower" are
for the panel carvings.

I made the rectangular-projection stamps from salvaged metal given to me by
a fellow classmate and the rod stamps are just cold-rolled steel from the
local hardware store.  I used a feather file, more typically used to
sharpen Japanese dozuki and ryoba saws.  I used a Starrett punch for the
center dimple.  I also tried a very fine triangular saw file, but it was
too much of an angle.  I bought the feather file at Woodcraft.  Lots of
trial and error, followed by grinding down to clean metal and having a go
at it again, and again, and again.  Enjoyable work.

Regards,

Dwight
255282 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
Delightful and useful.  Thank you.

Mike in Sacto
255283 "David G. Wittner" <dwittne@u...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
To be honest, I'm surprised there hasn't been more buzz about these. They
look great! On the carving, do you have to excavate the background before
stamping or do you just beat it into submission?

Keep up the good work,
DGW

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of
Michael Blair
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 6:52 AM
To: oldtools@s...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stamps

Delightful and useful.  Thank you.

Mike in Sacto
255284 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
> To be honest, I'm surprised there hasn't been more buzz about these. They
> look great! On the carving, do you have to excavate the background before
> stamping or do you just beat it into submission?

The frosted areas are excavated first.  The frosting is intended to
occlude nonuniformity in the resulting surface.  I've been led to
believe that that practice is an 'English' (and hence American) thing
not traditionally practiced in Norway.

That said, darn nice work there, and fun as well.
255285 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
Dwight,
 
These are very like-able.  You've made the Porch aware of a new "must have"
tool; the feather file !
 
John Ruth
Who believe one could never have too many varieties of files.
255286 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
Thank you, Mike, David, and Curt, for the kind words.  The stamps are a
challenge because they're small and you have to think of what needs to be
removed to create the design.  The first few, I made the design on the end
of the stamp, which got me the negative image in the wood.  Also, the steel
is soft, so a mis-struck file line can mean a return to the grinder or
grabbing a flat file to take the stamp down to new metal for a fresh start.

David, I'd prefer beating the background into submission, as the excavating
part is both finicky and tedious.  But as Curt observes, the removal is
done first.  The flowers, if not struck correctly when they're laid out,
can be fragile.  My natural tendency is to pop up the excavated piece
instead of freeing it by continuing the cut horizontally.  Trying to pop
that little piece up and out near the edge of the flower can lead to
disaster.  Learning curve and all that.  One other wood-related awareness
is the change in density that happens when you move from the spring wood,
comprised of large-diameter cells, to the denser late wood.  The "weaker"
cells of the spring wood can separate, leaving a rough or frayed edge along
the carving.  Once excavated, it's time to go back over the surface with
the stamps.  I'm driving poor Peter wild because, as a beginner who's
methodical, I'm progressing at a slower pace than he's accustomed to.  But
it's my work and I want it to be my best.  Hurrying and best aren't often
found together, IMHO.

Take care,

Dwight

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:02 AM, David G. Wittner  wrote:

> To be honest, I'm surprised there hasn't been more buzz about these. They
> look great! On the carving, do you have to excavate the background before
> stamping or do you just beat it into submission?
>
> Keep up the good work,
> DGW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-
bounces@s...] On Behalf Of
> Michael Blair
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015 6:52 AM
> To: oldtools@s...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Stamps
>
> Delightful and useful.  Thank you.
>
> Mike in Sacto
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
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255291 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Dwight Beebe  wrote:

>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/108901587400063562323/HadleyChest?authus
er=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNTxq6WumK6sBQ&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/
108901587400063562323/HadleyChest?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNTxq6WumK6sBQ&feat=d
irectlink
>
> or
>
> http://bit.ly/1T3WgIg
>
> The ones with the rectangular projections are for stippling the background
> around the vines and flowers, while the Maltese cross and the "flower" are
> for the panel carvings.


Nice stuff there Dwight.  I am hoping to make a touchmark soon.  I have a
cut off star drill (Thanks MS!).  Was planning on using the Foredom for
some cutting, but may go to feather files to improve my technique, and get
sharper edges.

Feather files are also nice for cleaning up fouled up screw and auger bit
threads, always good to have a few around.


-- 
Kirk Eppler in HMB, where its supposed to be a scorcher today, everywhere
but my house.
255292 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Kirk Eppler  wrote:

Was planning on using the Foredom for some cutting, but may go to feather
files to improve my technique, and get sharper edges.

Hi Kirk,

I did try a Dremel cut-off wheel, but the rod was small and the wheel
thickness too great, so it didn't work well.  I'm just back from the
hardware store with some wider-diameter rod and another straight piece I
want to mess with to create a single row of the rectangular projections.
There are many places where the other two background stamps are too wide.
I think I'm beginning to obsess...

Dwight

(and my apologies to Chris, et al., as my mailer does hide things and I
forgot to check)
255294 curt seeliger <seeligerc@g...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
> ... I'm just back from the
> hardware store with some wider-diameter rod and another straight piece I
> want to mess with to create a single row of the rectangular projections.
> There are many places where the other two background stamps are too wide.
> I think I'm beginning to obsess...

I had the same reaction to taking a class of his.  Suddenly I'm
collecting scrap bolts off the street and filing on them to make
different sized frosting tools, and then it occurs to me that you can
have different 'grain' sizes to the frosting as well as different
shapes, gads.  Don't ask how many 'different' cross/plus/phillips
punches I now have.  Let's just say they're all users and let it go.

On the other hand, it sounds like I had a very different reaction to
the care involved in the carving.  I found the emphasis on getting it
done rather than getting it perfect to be liberating and I enjoy
carving more now. Mistakes are either design elements or another push
to get better.

Enjoy the days,
cur
255295 <ecoyle@t...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: stamps
Dave G. W.is commenting.....
”To be honest, I'm surprised there hasn't been more buzz about these.”

Dave it’s a national holiday in half of North America....ie Canada (one of the
colonies Jeff), but I think I’m the second canuck to reply...

“ They look great!” I concurr. 

Eric in Calgary
255296 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2015‑07‑01 Re: Stamps
So true...off topic but relevant:
I took a cooking class in 'Nawlins', where I learned the most important bit
of cookery info,  "you all never name your dish until AFTER you've cooked
it".   This was, I'm told, the true origin of Louisiana "Blackened" fish...
Claudio

On Wednesday, July 1, 2015, curt seeliger  wrote:

> > ... I'm just back from the
> > hardware store with some wider-diameter rod and another straight piece I
> > want to mess with to create a single row of the rectangular projections.
> > There are many places where the other two background stamps are too wide.
> > I think I'm beginning to obsess...
>
> I had the same reaction to taking a class of his.  Suddenly I'm
> collecting scrap bolts off the street and filing on them to make
> different sized frosting tools, and then it occurs to me that you can
> have different 'grain' sizes to the frosting as well as different
> shapes, gads.  Don't ask how many 'different' cross/plus/phillips
> punches I now have.  Let's just say they're all users and let it go.
>
> On the other hand, it sounds like I had a very different reaction to
> the care involved in the carving.  I found the emphasis on getting it
> done rather than getting it perfect to be liberating and I enjoy
> carving more now. Mistakes are either design elements or another push
> to get better.
>
> Enjoy the days,
> cur
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s... 
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>


-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile
255298 Thomas Conroy 2015‑07‑02 Re: Stamps
Dwight Beebe wrote: "...I used a feather file, more typically used to sharpen
Japanese dozuki and ryoba saws.  I used a Starrett punch for the
center dimple.  I also tried a very fine triangular saw file, but it was too
much of an angle...  Lots of trial and error, followed by grinding down to clean
metal and having a go at it again, and again, and again."

I've cut a lot of bookbinders' finishing tools, pretty much the same thing but
in brass and with different shapes. And at one time a lot of leather stamping
was done with simple shop-cut stamps rather than the complex Craftool-type ones.

Give the triangular file another chance. You can't go as deep with it, but you
don't need much depth for stamps, and a tool with the 60 degree spread from the
face is a lot less fragile than a tool with deep narrow cuts. Also, with a
triangular file you can correct mistakes by filing down the face just a little
bit, which will spread the lines and narrow the counters (the areas that will
print white), allowing you to correct without going all the way back to the
beginning. Most typographic punchcutting was done with small triangular files
and burins, and with shaped counterpunches (like your Starrett) for the
counters. For most designs one would work in at an angle from the side, as I see
you're doing on some of your stamps, not flat to the face, which is a lot
trickier.
A good-quality set of needle files is extremely helpful; you need jeweler's
files with sharp arrisses, though, not the hardware-store Chinese-made ones,
which don't come down to a sharp edge. Or, failing that, get a thin chainsaw
file, say 1/16", which will give a lot of scalloped-edge possibilities. Binders
used to use a lot of little leaves in left-and-right pairs, and closely related
pairs of tadpole shapes. Less common, but very useful, are little single flames.
Small simple stamps are more versatile than complex ones.

I find that files and burins are much more useful than a Foredom or Dremel tool.
The files help to guide your hand and create the shapes, and they cut at a
comfortable rate. The power tool doesn't actually speed things up very much, but
you have much less control and you have to bring your shapes out of your eye,
not out of your hand.

The radiating-line shapes are, in my experience, among the most difficult to
cut: for some reason the slightest irregularity shows and looks bad. On the
other hand, one of the most useful stippling tools is a simple circle like an
"o"; make the counter of the o with a punch or a drill and then file the outside
with about a 45 degree spread. It's surprisingly easy, especially by comparison
with radiating lines.
I was first taught to have the tool (i.e. the stamp) I was cutting upright in a
small machinist's vise, holding the files with both hands, even for the fine
lines. I later learned to use a jewelers' birdsmouth, that is a board with a
small v-cut in its end sticking over the edge of the bench, preferable set on a
high support or sitting in a low chair so that the birdsmouth is close to the
eyes without stooping over. The stamp being cut is held in the left hand and
braced against the birdsmouth, and the file is held in just the right hand. Even
if you like a birdsmouth it is easier to square the face and rough in using a
vise.

Some of the older leatherworking books have designs for shop-made stamps, and
suggested patterns for combining them. If you can find a copy of John W. Dean's
"Leathercraft: Techniques and Designs" (Bloomington: McKnight and McKnight,
1950) there is a particularly good section on shopmade stamps on pp. 60-65.

Tom ConroyBerkeley
255299 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2015‑07‑02 Re: Stamps
Thomas Conroy via OldTools wrote:

> Some of the older leatherworking books have designs for shop-made stamps, and
suggested patterns for combining them. If you can find a copy of John W. Dean's
"Leathercraft: Techniques and Designs" (Bloomington: McKnight and McKnight,
1950) there is a particularly good section on shopmade stamps on pp. 60-65.

Or read Moxon on making type - the filing of punches, (and counter punches)
has tremendous overlap with the stamps being discussed.

  BugBear
255301 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2015‑07‑02 Re: Stamps
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 6:27 AM, Thomas Conroy 
 wrote:


> Give the triangular file another chance. You can't go as deep with it, but
> you don't need much depth for stamps, and a tool with the 60 degree spread
> from the face is a lot less fragile than a tool with deep narrow cuts.
> Also, with a triangular file you can correct mistakes by filing down the
> face just a little bit, which will spread the lines and narrow the counters
> (the areas that will print white), allowing you to correct without going
> all the way back to the beginning.
>


> A good-quality set of needle files is extremely helpful; you need
> jeweler's files with sharp arrisses, though, not the hardware-store
> Chinese-made ones, which don't come down to a sharp edge. Or, failing that,
> get a thin chainsaw file, say 1/16", which will give a lot of
> scalloped-edge possibilities.
>

Ahh...!  Where is my memory?  I have not one, but two sets of Swiss needle
files stuck away in the back of a drawer.  Thank you, Tom!  I guess that
zero rummage factor approach to tool storage needs to shift to a more
reductionist modality, i.e., I need to get the little stuff out so I
remember I have it.

I'm still working on creating a stamp for the panels, but I've decided to
use one I've already made for the center panel.  This morning's progress:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LwWd10pByif6hLVdvsOa2rEIr-
jwQN5N7h-RgWj4y98?feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo
/LwWd10pByif6hLVdvsOa2rEIr-jwQN5N7h-RgWj4y98?feat=directlink

or

http://bit.ly/1T8fRqR

Thanks, Tom, for your input.  Great information.
255305 Thomas Conroy 2015‑07‑02 Re: Stamps
Dwight Beebe wrote:
>I'm still working on creating a stamp for the panels, but I've decided to use
one I've already made for the center panel.  This morning's progress:
>
>
>https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LwWd10pByif6hLVdvsOa2rEIr-
jwQN5N7h-RgWj4y98?feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo
/LwWd10pByif6hLVdvsOa2rEIr-jwQN5N7h-RgWj4y98?feat=directlink
>

I like what you're doing with the round stamp, Dwight, using it sparingly to
show it off. Remember that the details of a textureing stamp are a lot less
important than those of a stand-alone stamp. The only time I have punched down a
whole area in wood (inside a slot, to hide the fact that the surface was
irregular but impossible to get at to smooth) I used (if I remember correctly) a
big nail set, which gave a perfectly adequate circle, everything considered.

Tom Conroy
255511 Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> 2015‑07‑23 Re: Stamps
Great information gentlemen.  I'm working on a small stamp for metalwork
and have been revisiting a book Tom Conroy turned me onto, Counterpunch,
making type in the 16th century, that describes the process he's talking
about. .
Michael-there's a set of Grobet needle files in here somewhere

On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

>
> Dwight Beebe wrote:
> >I'm still working on creating a stamp for the panels, but I've decided to
> use one I've already made for the center panel.  This morning's progress:
> >
> >
> >
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/LwWd10pByif6hLVdvsOa2rEIr-
jwQN5N7h-RgWj4y98?feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo
/LwWd10pByif6hLVdvsOa2rEIr-jwQN5N7h-RgWj4y98?feat=directlink
> >
>
> I like what you're doing with the round stamp, Dwight, using it sparingly
> to show it off. Remember that the details of a textureing stamp are a lot
> less important than those of a stand-alone stamp. The only time I have
> punched down a whole area in wood (inside a slot, to hide the fact that the
> surface was irregular but impossible to get at to smooth) I used (if I
> remember correctly) a big nail set, which gave a perfectly adequate circle,
> everything considered.
>
> Tom Conroy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>



-- 
Michael-Frightening the neighbors since the year Four
255513 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2015‑07‑24 Re: Stamps
Michael Suwczinsky wrote:
> Great information gentlemen.  I'm working on a small stamp for metalwork
> and have been revisiting a book Tom Conroy turned me onto, Counterpunch,
> making type in the 16th century, that describes the process he's talking
> about. .

I hadn't heard of this, and had to google.

Here's more on the book:

https://hyp
henpress.co.uk/products/books/978-0-907259-42-8

(for the archive:

Title: Counterpunch: making type in the sixteenth century, designing typefaces
now

Author: Fred Smeijers

  ISBN

978-0-907259-42-8
)

  BugBear
255514 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2015‑07‑24 Re: Stamps
Michael Suwczinsky wrote:
> Great information gentlemen.  I'm working on a small stamp for metalwork
> and have been revisiting a book Tom Conroy turned me onto, Counterpunch,
> making type in the 16th century, that describes the process he's talking
> about. .

I've found a 1911 book of drop stamping, including die-cutting,
which has some relevant techniques:

"Drop Forging, Die Sinking and Machine Forming of Steel"

https://archive.org/stream/dropforgingdiesi00wooduoft#page/66/mode/2up"
>https://archive.org/stream/dropforgingdiesi00wooduoft#page/66/mode/2up

  BugBear
255515 Peter Marquis-Kyle <peter@m...> 2015‑07‑24 Re: Stamps
On 24/07/2015 6:05 PM, paul womack wrote:
> Michael Suwczinsky wrote:
>> Great information gentlemen.  I'm working on a small stamp for metalwork
>> and have been revisiting a book Tom Conroy turned me onto, Counterpunch,
>> making type in the 16th century, that describes the process he's talking
>> about. .
>
> I hadn't heard of this, and had to google.
>
> Here's more on the book:
>
> https://h
yphenpress.co.uk/products/books/978-0-907259-42-8

...and a review with pictures:
http://www
.marquis-kyle.com.au/ironic-2002-01-17.htm

-- 

Peter Marquis-Kyle
255517 Thomas Conroy 2015‑07‑25 Re: Stamps
"Counterpunch" is an absolutely brilliant book, built around a series of
brilliant insights. It describes punches far more sophisticated than what is
needed for punching down a background in wood carving, and techniques of
punchcutting that require more skill, so it might be a bit intimidating; but it
is also a great read on its own. And plenty of the information in it is
applicable.

Smeirs is a computer type designer and was trying to convince software engineers
that 250 d.p.i. wasn't enough resolution for a typeface. They, being engineers,
wanted numbers. So he started studying historic typographic punches and soon
found that there was no adequate description of how they were designed and made.
In his despair he turned to his father, an industrial metalworker trained when
Europe was rebuilding from WWII. He took his father to the Plantin-Moretus
Museum in Amsterdam, which holds hundreds of sets of punches, some from as far
back as the 16th century. "No one knows  how these were made," he told his
father.

His father laughed at him, said "I know a dozen men who could make these for
you," he said. "I could make them myself." Then he explained the whole process:
files, burins, steel, relief, counterpunches, striking, all still done by hand
in the old way in the 1950s. Where Junior had seen typographic punches, Senior
had just seen punches, just like the dies he had made for cutting out cigar
bands and other things.

And now Junior could get his numbers. He made a few punches, measured the curls
of steel that the graver took off. Curls that were enough to make the difference
between a good letter and an ugly letter. The curls were on the order of
1/100,000 of an inch thick. -That- gave him a number for those 250 d.p.i.
software engineers to chew on.


Once Smeijers was into making punches, he had the second epiphany the book comes
from: 16th-century type design was better explained by the use of counterpunches
than by using burins to dig out the counters (the white areas inside the
letters). This is one of those stunning-obvious realizations, an application of
the principal that the tools lead the design (which sounds deceptively like
"form follows function," but which is actually quite different). In woodworking
terms, you -can- make the same shapes with a belt sander and with hand planes;
but in practice you -don't-. The best part of Smeirs' book is spent in
explaining how counterpunches work and how they influenced the design.

Smeijrs' epiphany on counterpunching and type design is closely comparable to
Edward Catiche's "The Origin of the Serif," which describes his realization that
Roman inscriptional capitals were laid out by just writing them freehand with a
wide, flat brush. For five or six centuries people had been trying to copy them
with compass and straightedge, drawing the outlines according to increasingly
complex rules and then filling in. Its all very simple when you figure it out.
Another great read if your tastes lie toward letters.


Bugbear wrote:

> 
> I've found a 1911 book of drop stamping, including die-cutting,
> which has some relevant techniques:
> 
> "Drop Forging, Die Sinking and Machine Forming of Steel"
> 
> https://archive.org/stream/dropforgingdiesi00wooduoft#page/66/mode/2u
p">https://archive.org/stream/dropforgingdiesi00wooduoft#page/66/mode/2up

> 


I wish I'd had a copy of this book back when I was studying bookbinders'
finishing tool makers, this and the other books by the same author listed
opposite the title page. Binders' toolcutting didn't often provide a whole
living, so it was often done by more general firms. In city directories in the
18th and early 19th century these firms usually described themselves as "seal
engravers;" in the middle and late 19th century the description shifted to "die
sinkers."  But its hard to get solid information on either trade.

Tom Conroy

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