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254760 | Mark Jefferis <mark.tango@i...> | 2015‑05‑19 | How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
I have just stripped a Montgomery Wards 1940's sewing machine cabinet with a blond finish on it that showed the underlying mahogany wood grain through it. The blond finish was almost like a see through paint. Ugly as snot. Zip Strip with a denatured alcohol wash has successfully removed the finish accept for what remains down in the grain of the mahogany. I am finding it to be a challenge to remove necessitating aggressive brass brushing with the alcohol. Am I on the right track with the use of additional Zip Strip and the brass brush? I absolutely do not want to use a card scrapper and sand paper to get to the bottom of the grain lines because the cabinet cover and side panels uses thin mahogany veneer. If anyone can suggest another faster method of finish removal from the grain, I'd be very pleased. Mark |
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254768 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Mark Jefferis |
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254770 | Mark Jefferis <mark.tango@i...> | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Please keep the advise coming. I very very much appreciate it. Would have dipping the whole sewing cabinet been better at cleaning out the grain? Mark On May 19, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Kirk Eppler |
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254771 | Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
I had a dining room table dipped. It required a lot of sanding afterward as there was a lot of raised grain. KE On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Mark Jefferis |
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254773 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
There are now water based products that they use to strip 10-15-20 years of bottom paint off the bottom of boats. ONe trick I saw them use was a heavy sheet of plastic over the goop after plastering it all over the hull. I tried using household plastic wrap (Cling Wrap IIRC) when I stripped a piece and it definitely kept the goop from drying out and made it work a little better. Ed Minch On May 19, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Kirk Eppler |
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254776 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
On 2015-05-19 1:19 PM, Ed Minch wrote: > I tried using household plastic wrap (Cling Wrap IIRC) when I stripped a piece and it definitely kept the goop from drying out and made it work a little better. > Ed Minch Wax paper will work this way too. Don |
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254777 | galoot@l... | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Quoting Ed Minch : > There are now water based products that they use to strip 10-15-20 > years of bottom paint off the bottom of boats. What is it called and is there any reason not to use it in the house? I have an 1880 farmhouse and have barely started the stripping that eventually should be done... Esther |
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254780 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2015‑05‑19 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
I don’t know what the name of the specific stuff I saw was, but here is one from a search - “strip boat bottom” https://www.dumondchemicals.com/pro-peel-away-marinesafetyII- removers.html">https://www.dumondchemicals.com/pro-peel-away-marinesafetyII- removers.html Ed Minch On May 19, 2015, at 6:22 PM, galoot@l... wrote: > Quoting Ed Minch : > >> There are now water based products that they use to strip 10-15-20 years of bottom paint off the bottom of boats. > > What is it called and is there any reason not to use it in the house? I have an 1880 farmhouse and have barely started the stripping that eventually should be done... > > Esther > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. > > To change your subscription options: > http://old tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools > > To read the FAQ: > http://swingleydev.com/archi ve/faq.html > > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/ot/">http://swingleydev.com/ot/ > > OldTools@s... > http://old tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools |
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254781 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2015‑05‑20 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
> Would have dipping the whole sewing cabinet been better at cleaning > out the grain? Dipping is the surest way to completely destroy a piece of furniture. Never, never, never dip strip anything. Among other things in your case dip stripping will allow the stripper to penetrate and dissolve the glue that affixes the veneer -- bye-bye veneer. I don't think there's anything for it but a lot of time spent with a fine brass brush and elbow grease. Mike in Sacto |
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254782 | Michael Blair <branson2@s...> | 2015‑05‑20 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
You know, there is a product, which I have used successfully, called Citri-strip or something like that. Readily available (I get mine from the local Ace hardware), it's water soluble, water clean up, no fumes. You can use it in the house, no problem. Mike in Sacto > There are now water based products that they use to strip 10-15-20 > years of bottom paint off the bottom of boats. |
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254783 | Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> | 2015‑05‑20 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Sent from my iPad On May 19, 2015, at 8:20 PM, Michael Blair |
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254787 | Tim <tpendleton@g...> | 2015‑05‑20 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Citristrip works very well. I get mine at the BORG. The GIT and I recently used it to strip a late 60s vintage 17' Grumman aluminum (al-U-min-E-um, Jeff) canoe. If it dries, just slop a little more on to rehydrate it and you are good to go. Tim Pondering canoe paddle repairs in breezy NJ. On May 19, 2015 8:49 PM, "Michael Blair" |
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254788 | Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> | 2015‑05‑20 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Totally agree with Michael!!! Never strip wood anything! Loosens joints, removes veneer, destroys wood fibers, etc. Bad process on wood. As someone else mentioned, dipping is fine on metal as long as you can get the stripper completely removed. But never on wood! Did I say never on wood? MLW and I refinished a lot of pieces a few years ago in our business and we never considered dipping. Flow-over isn't quite a bad on a solid piece, but just keep working away on the veneered piece. It's the only way to have something nice when you're done. Open grained woods are the worst when you have thick or opaque finish. Just be glad someone didn't paint over raw wood. Then you have a total no-win situation. Good luck, Bruce Z. Des Moines, Iowa Who no longer strips furniture, thank goodness.... On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 12:47 PM, Mark Jefferis |
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254792 | "Cal Meier" <calmeier@s...> | 2015‑05‑20 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Hi, With regard to using water based strippers (and maybe any stripper) be aware of what you are stripping. I will stick with personal experience. My daughter wanted to strip her painted chest of drawers all by herself. Ok, so I went with a safer, water based, citric acid stripper. It worked, but she got a bit enthusiastic with the stripper and water clean up. She eventually told me that something was "bubbling up." It was the veneer on the flat surfaces. It was a quality piece of bedroom furniture with all the right dovetail joints, etc, but it happened to have a veneer skin. Had to do some fast rolling out of veneer. Luckily not too much damage. I also mention the above while thinking about a very nice mahogany book case we inherited from my wife's father. At one time he "refinished" it. It has some damage because the beautiful mahogany top and side panels are mahogany veneer. Luckily, the worst delamination was near bottom on the side panels. Quality mahogany has often been veneer even in old pieces. As for the citric acid based or orange stripper. It works. I have not problem using it as long as I keep in mind what I am trying to strip. Pulling the last 3 percent or so of white paint out of a piece of porous oak furniture whose varnish had worn off before they painted it, is a real pain. Just a thought. Cal Meier Central Louisiana |
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254820 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2015‑05‑22 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
I don’t want to be unduly alarmist, and I know there are galoots with more experience than I in refinishing, but I’ve just read some of this thread, and there are several assertions which, whilst being completely right, are also completely wrong. The correct answer is ‘It depends’ - when did we last use that on this forum? It depends because the way the item was made, and what it’s made with, varies so much. Others have already mentioned damage to veneers and glues. Be careful. check exactly what it is you are dealing with. Prolonged exposure of any water based anything to hide glue will soften it. Alcohol is the preferred way to remove veneer that is hide glued on. - just get some alcohol into the glue line, followed by an old, thin, reground table knife, and it just cracks away without water damage. Dip stripping - boiling up an item in a vat of nasty stuff, is great for anything that will withstand it. Used to be a trend over here years back to take old pine doors and furniture and mistreat them this way. Plenty of loose joints as a result. SO, - you are right not to use a scraper. If the subject is veneered in place, and old, assume that water will damage it, and prolonged alcohol will do so. Work a small area at a time, cleaning up as you go, and washing off residue. Rather than vigour with your brush, try and balance time for the resume to soften with ‘gentle’ brushing to avoid grain damage. Sometimes a commercial stripper is the best solution, sometimes a water based one, sometimes a spirit based one. sometimes a bit of each on the same item. Once it’s damaged, it’s damaged. Once you remove any patina, its gone, and replacing it takes ages :- ) That’s my take on it Richard Wilson a Yorkshireman in Northumberland > On 19 May 2015, at 06:14, Mark Jefferis |
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254822 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2015‑05‑22 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
On 2015-05-22 5:44 AM, yorkshireman@y... wrote: > just get some alcohol into the glue line, followed by an old, thin, reground table knife, and it just cracks away without water damage. Richard I have used old wide-blade Sheffield table knives for this purpose and others, but have never reground them to suit. What sort of grind do you give them? Don |
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254823 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2015‑05‑22 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
For guitar disassembly, many use a chef’s icing spreading knife - very thin and just the right shape. I have found 2 of these at gar(b)age sales. http://cooksdream.co m/store/product/ca/a1375.html Ed Minch On May 22, 2015, at 11:09 AM, Don Schwartz |
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254826 | yorkshireman@y... | 2015‑05‑22 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Yep - old sheffield table knives - very thin, quite stiff, in response to Ed, a palette knife would be very similar - we have a ridiculously thin and floppy one, and a quality stiff, wide one which would work, but is thicker than the table knife (and blunt edged) the blunt edge could be sharpened a bit, but you don’t want ‘sharp’ - you want thin enough to slide into the joint, so as regards grinding, which I mentioned, I’ve found that the almost semicircular end isn’t always the best shape, so I’ve ground a couple to be more like a striking knife shape at the end. Being a table knife, they have a stiffish spine, which allows a bit of gentle emerge if needed (though I snapped the end off one not long ago - whilst abusing it on a home repair task) The point was really about alcohol being a way of cracking open a veneered surface without damaging the surface using water. Damned if you use water, damned if you use alcohol, or at least, if you allow anything to stand too long. Way too much to ‘know’ when stripping a piece. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot in Northumberland > On 22 May 2015, at 16:09, Don Schwartz |
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254827 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2015‑05‑22 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
On 2015-05-22 2:53 PM, yorkshireman@y... wrote: > the blunt edge could be sharpened a bit, but you don’t want ‘sharp’ - you want thin enough to slide into the joint, so as regards grinding, which I mentioned, I’ve found that the almost semicircular end isn’t always the best shape, so I’ve ground a couple to be more like a striking knife shape at the end. > Being a table knife, they have a stiffish spine, which allows a bit of gentle emerge if needed (though I snapped the end off one not long ago - whilst abusing it on a home repair task) Richard Thanks! I have a few of those knives to experiment with (the LOML's rejects ;- ), and a couple of rather better-educated guesses about how to proceed now. IME, the thinner ones are much less common than those with a stiffer spine, so I'll hold them in reserve for now. Don |
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254828 | Ed Minch <ruby@m...> | 2015‑05‑23 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
I have not done this but here is what I have heard described: The bridge is the piece of the guitar that holds the ends of the strings in the middle of the top. The strings have little balls tied at the end, and they go through the holes and bear on the inside of the top, and pegs are inserted into the tapered holes to hold them in place. The bridge is subject to 175-200 lbs of force, so the glue joint is critical, and this joint can be expected to fail at some point. The traditional technique is to heat the bridge with a hot iron or heat lamp to weaken the glue (used to be Hot Hide, but is now Titebond or similar) and slip a thin putty knife (icing knife) under it. But now they are being removed cold. The knife for this is thin, but not sharp, if I get the idea, There is a tiny flat with sharp arises and this tool is tapped into the joint to break the glue bond. The two icing knives that I have are .023 and .014 thick. I have used them for removing 2 backs and other various small jobs and don’t yet have a feel for what is best. Ed Minch On May 22, 2015, at 6:36 PM, Don Schwartz |
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254830 | "yorkshireman@y..." <yorkshireman@y...> | 2015‑05‑23 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
That’s interesting. We have a common experience here, albeit in different material and context. I started by wanting to ‘pry’ apart stuff - but using something like, say, a screwdriver, would leave damage at the leverage site, and as soon as you come down to say a stanley knife blade, its too sharp, and cuts on entry - also too brittle, and snaps instantly, and too short, so after you lift a cornet, you reach back for something long and thin (screwdriver again?) and push it into place, - hoping the glue will part and the joint spring open - note - don’t try this at home - I’m misdescribing to make the point. It was a restorer who showed me the use of old, thin, table knives, as being blunt, very very thin - compare one to a modern stainless knife - and very ;on, and some at least have a stiffening on the spine which allows there use as a lifter. Once in the joint, you may elect to have a ‘sharper’ version that you can wiggle around to help break the gulling. The other revelation from him was the use of alcohol to crack animal glue - agin - you have the joint open by maybe 40 or 50 thou - inject some alcohol, do some wiggling, turn the item to get the alcohol to flow, inject a bit more, wiggle some more, pry a bit when the knife is in far enough, and continue. I looked at palette knives, which are very similar, and concluded that, for me, I like the bit of spine and change in thickness from edge to spine. Mostly though - I have a half dozen or so old knives that I inherited, and see plenty more in grot shops. Good, sheffield steel that can be remade into marking knives if needed. Being a knife, they are intended to become stiffer nearer the handle, so shortening one gets you a stiffer blade, whereas a palette knife stays bendy for its length. But in summary - like so much else we discuss here, its not the tools, its the knowledge and care and skill behind them that does the job. Like I said - we seem to have a common framework here of thin wide flexible blade. much thinner than a stripping knife. R yorkshireman in northumberland. Summer arrived - Vikings attacking Bamburg Castle, Rowers rowers to row around Coquet island > On 23 May 2015, at 12:00, Ed Minch wrote: > > I have not done this but here is what I have heard described: > > The bridge is the piece of the guitar that holds the ends of the strings in the middle of the top. The strings have little balls tied at the end, and they go through the holes and bear on the inside of the top, and pegs are inserted into the tapered holes to hold them in place. The bridge is subject to 175-200 lbs of force, so the glue joint is critical, and this joint can be expected to fail at some point. > > The traditional technique is to heat the bridge with a hot iron or heat lamp to weaken the glue (used to be Hot Hide, but is now Titebond or similar) and slip a thin putty knife (icing knife) under it. But now they are being removed cold. The knife for this is thin, but not sharp, if I get the idea, There is a tiny flat with sharp arises and this tool is tapped into the joint to break the glue bond. > > The two icing knives that I have are .023 and .014 thick. I have used them for removing 2 backs and other various small jobs and don’t yet have a feel for what is best. > > Ed Minch > > > > > On May 22, 2015, at 6:36 PM, Don Schwartz |
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254835 | paul womack <pwomack@p...> | 2015‑05‑26 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
Ed Minch wrote: > For guitar disassembly, many use a chef’s icing spreading knife - very thin and just the right shape. I have found 2 of these at gar(b)age sales. > > http://cooksdream. com/store/product/ca/a1375.html I don't know the why's and wherefore's, but palette knives (cooks' not artists') seem to come in two styles; one is parallel and quite stiff, and the other tapers towards the end, and is very thin and flexible. A quick google has failed to find either names for the variants, or any rationale, but I own one of each. (*) BugBear (*) the One True Way |
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254836 | GJR <1947gjr@a...> | 2015‑05‑26 | Re: How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer |
On 5/26/2015 3:00 PM, oldtools-request@s... wrote: > Subject: Re: [OldTools] How to remove all finish from mahogany veneer > Message-ID: <5564269F.3090901@p...> Content-Type: > text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Ed Minch wrote: >> >For guitar disassembly, many use a chef?s icing spreading knife - very thin and just the right shape. I have found 2 of these at gar(b)age sales. >> > >> >http://cooksdrea m.com/store/product/ca/a1375.html Many years ago I found an ideal blade for separating glue joints. It was a thin knife, about 12" long and about an inch wide that was originally used in a carpet mill machine to cut the threads that made up the carpet. Evidently, these blades were replaced frequently and were quite common. Don't know about now. Anyway, it was just the right thickness and flexibility for the job. As for taking bridges off by breaking the joint with a sharp blow, I have my reservations. I'd heard of this technique years ago from some respected repair people, who had tried it for a while, but had gone back to the traditional method because they had had one too many disasters. On a vintage instrument, one is too many. The original rationale for avoiding heat was that heat could compromise the center joint, the braces, or the bridge pad. However, careful and judicious application of heat has presented no problems for me, at least to date. Knock wood. In addition, unless one knows for certain that the bridge was glued with hot hide, trying to shear the joint with a sharp blow may easily destroy a top. Titebond and epoxy, for example, do not lend themselves to this method. Even hot hide can be amazingly stubborn to remove. The most difficult neck reset I ever tackled was on a Schmidt and Maul parlour. This guitar was in the neighborhood of 125 years old and had been "stored" in an unheated attic for over 60 years. It took many hours of careful steaming and wiggling to finally get it loose. I would never have risked trying to knock the bridge off that guitar! If there is a trick to loosening hide glue, it is patience, not brute force. Likewise, using alcohol to soften glue. Alcohol can be another disaster if the finish is at all alcohol soluble. I'd recommend warm water and if necessary, maybe vinegar. |
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