I see several sellers on that infamous auction site offering knives said 
to be high carbon stainless steel. In my ignorance, I thought high 
carbon and stainless steel were two distinct materials. Was I wrong 
about this, or are the sellers just hustling?

Don

-- 

39% isn't a majority. Proportional Representation. Anything else is just a waste
of votes.

Don Schwartz asked,
>
> I see several sellers on that infamous auction site offering knives 
> said to be high carbon stainless steel. In my ignorance, I thought 
> high carbon and stainless steel were two distinct materials. Was I 
> wrong about this, or are the sellers just hustling?
>
> Don
>
Hi Don,

I don't know the absolute answer to any of your 3 questions, I'm not a 
metallurgist  (though they are present on the porch so I need to be 
careful)>  Nor am I a Cutler.  I just have a story.

41 years ago I was given  a cheap knife, carbon steel blade, aluminium 
bolster and rivets, beechwood scales.  Shape of a butcher's  large 
skinning knife with the typical curved cutting edge and bulbous tip.  No 
maker's name, only marked "Solingen".   These days it would not meet any 
of the basic food handling rules.

A professional chef would have been pained by the sight but I used that 
knife for everything except taking the eyes out of potatoes. (I cook, I 
don't "chef"). That knife took and held a wicked edge using only a 
serrated steel to touch it up, never went to a stone. Gradually the 
blade wore down and the bolster guard got more and more in the way.  It 
lasted until a couple of years ago when a friend took a chip out of the 
way too thin cutting edge and I took it to the workshop hoping to 
salvage something from the ruin.  Its still there, because my friend 
bought me a replacement, partly in apology and partly as a thank-you for 
a month's free accommodation.

The replacement is a very swish chef's knife, marked "Lion, Sabatier, 
100% forged Cast Steel France", so made by Rousselon Bros. in Thiers.  
Their website is pretty interesting, but while they have an English 
version, it still displays the French language description of the 
manufacturing process.  this knife also takes a wicked edge off the steel.

The Solingen knife would rust overnight with a big red rust patch and 
pits if it was left damp, never mind wet.  Half the reason the blade was 
so fine along the edge was my continual workouts with a pot-scourer when 
someone who knew no better used it and left it, rather than cleaning it, 
drying it and putting it away.  That blade would have rusted red in a 
humid afternoon.

In two years daily the Lion knife has developed a few dark stains and 
smears, simple discolouration, no more. It has not shown a hint of red 
rust, nor of pitting.

Based on that single comparison I can only say that not all "carbon 
steels" are the same.  The steel of the Solingen knife behaved as I 
would expect carbon steel to behave.  Clearly the steel of the new knife 
has been improved by application of the metallurgists' arts. It takes a 
far better edge than any stainless steel knife I have encountered.  So, 
despite the "Carbon Steel" attribution on the Lion knife I suspect that 
it is a blend of elements tailored to hold an edge while remaining 
rust-free under reasonable working use.  I guess it could equally well 
be described as "high carbon stainless".  I imagine it would depend on 
where the seller thought the best and most lucrative market was to be found.

All the best,

Tony B
Hobart, Tasmania

> The replacement is a very swish chef's knife, marked "Lion, Sabatier,
> 100% forged Cast Steel France", so made by Rousselon Bros. in Thiers.
> Their website is pretty interesting, but while they have an English
> version, it still displays the French language description of the
> manufacturing process.

The process in English is here:

http://www.emotionfrance.com/news/MTU3/rousselon-dumas-sabatier-100
-forged-steel-perigord-knives">http://www.emotionfrance.com/news/MTU3/rousselon-
dumas-sabatier-100-forged-steel-perigord-knives

> In my ignorance, I thought high carbon and stainless steel were two 
> distinct materials. Was I
> wrong about this, or are the sellers just hustling?

I had the same impression, Don, but apparently the metallurgists have 
been at it and come up
with a high carbon stainless.  I still feel sceptical, but here's what I 
found:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-high-carbon-stainless-
steel.htm">http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-high-carbon-stainless-steel.htm

Michael Blair wrote:
>> In my ignorance, I thought high carbon and stainless steel were two distinct
materials. Was I
>> wrong about this, or are the sellers just hustling?
>
> I had the same impression, Don, but apparently the metallurgists have been at
it and come up
> with a high carbon stainless.  I still feel sceptical, but here's what I
found:
>
> http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-high-carbon-stainless-
steel.htm">http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-high-carbon-stainless-steel.htm

Knife steel is complex...

http://zknives.
com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml

  BugBear

On 2/24/2015 1:55 AM, Don Schwartz wrote:
> high carbon stainless steel.


Oh you  mean any of the heat treatable forgable 400 series stainless 
that has been selling for knife stock and as very expensive chef's 
knives from the fancy pants German knife makers for the last  few 
decades?  They have carbon in them.

I can fondly recall a double smelted under vacuum 400 series stainless 
out of Japan  that is no longer made which  is today still spoken of in 
reverential and fond terms around knife maker sites that was the bees 
knees for scuba knives.


Maybe this multiple smelting  high purity 400 series steel is back. I 
dunno.  But  recently I purchased a chef's style knife a tiny little 6" 
one for my missus from Mercer (their Genesis line).  It is Forged Carbon 
Stainless.

  I thought I was taking a chance on an unknown.  It was like their best 
knife and I only paid 30 sumpin bucks and got a FABULOUS knife the like 
and quality I hadn't seen for sale for well over  hundred dollars - - 
ever - - and only from those fancy pants German makers.

Blade holds an edge like any Hogh Carbon Steel I've used but  goes in 
the dishwasher just fine.


The resurgence in 400 steel metallurgy is no surprise since every single 
SST pot and pan you buy these days is made from 400 series in a 
misguided   ( but universal) effort to have all commercial kitchens 
ready for the Induction Revolution.

Apparently, we are all going to be cooking with magnets in the space age 
near future and all the pots and pans gotta be compliant.   So Carbon is 
part of the new wave.

It's kind of sucks because all 400 series steels will rust.
Get a small spot of corrosion and getting rid of it is a PITA.  Left 
unattended and it'll create a honkin huge cone shaped pit in no time.
A hot soak in strong citric will usually do the trick

High carbon stainless has been around for a long time. Perhaps it is 
just that people have recently found it is good advertising.

On 2015-02-23 22:55, Don Schwartz wrote:
> to be high carbon stainless steel. In my ignorance, I thought high

You probably already have such a knife.

INOX blades have been around for years - 0.5% carbon, 15% Chromium - 
also labelled X50CrMoV15. X50 means 0.5% carbon, although these 
designations are not consistent. I have had an INOX paring knife for 30 
years. Very little wear from original size.

The Wusthof classic are labelled X50CrMo15. Is this INOX without the 
Vanadium?

8C13CrMoV - often seen on blades is 0.8% carbon, 13% Chromium.

The 440 grades, A, B, and more recently C, are all high carbon, ranging 
from 0.6% for 440A to 1% for 440C. 440C can be as high as 1.2% carbon. 
Otherwise, they are the same.

440C - Carbon 0.60-.75, Manganese 1, Chromium 16-18, Molybdenum .75
440C - Carbon 0.75-.95, Manganese 1, Chromium 16-18, Molybdenum .75
440C - Carbon 0.95-1.2, Manganese 1, Chromium 16-18, Molybdenum .75

440C is a very durable steel - as durable or better than many of the 
high carbon non-stainless steels we use for woodworking tools. More 
durable for example than A2. Certainly better than O1 for our purposes - 
edge tools. 440C can be tricky to heat treat. Bad heat treat can lead to 
a fragile edge and an edge that is harder to sharpen. Because it is to 
durable, it can be hard to finish. So, you can get good and bad 440C 
knives depending on the quality of the heat treatment.

There is some speculation that Lee Valley's PMV11 is a variant of 440C, 
although they have yet to release its analysis.

Lately I have seen a lot of 440C knives on eBay and other places on the net.

Other much rarer high carbon stainless grades include: 154CM, VG-10, 
BG42, SGPS (1.4%).

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

GGs,

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 7:41 AM, Brent Beach  wrote:
> The 440 grades, A, B, and more recently C, are all high carbon, ranging from
> 0.6% for 440A to 1% for 440C. 440C can be as high as 1.2% carbon. Otherwise,
> they are the same.
>
> 440A - Carbon 0.60-.75, Manganese 1, Chromium 16-18, Molybdenum .75
> 440B - Carbon 0.75-.95, Manganese 1, Chromium 16-18, Molybdenum .75
> 440C - Carbon 0.95-1.2, Manganese 1, Chromium 16-18, Molybdenum .75

Thanks for the info, Brent.

To put it into perspective I can understand, I looked up the steel in
my favorite Opinel folder: X90 high carbon steel.  If the X90 actually
indicates 0.9% carbon, that means the 440B and C could have as much
carbon in them as my Opinel.  I've never met a stainless knife that
could hold a candle to the $12 knife I carry in my pocket, but these
numbers make me think it might be possible if carbon content is the
metric that makes my folder so sharp, durable, and easy to sharpen.  I
expect it's waaaay more complicated than that though...

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
http://swingleydev.com/
cswingle@s...

Chris & Galoots,

Chris wrote "expect it's waaaay more complicated than that though..."

Yup, I think it is, and speaking from my experience after passing the point 
of sanity concerning knife steel you may just find yourself spending a good 
deal of time at this web site.

ht
tp://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/blade_materials.html#S_420

The stainless listings are about half way down.

Truth is Chris,  even if you were to spent hundreds of dollars on an exotic 
stainless blade you would probably never love it as much as your $12 carbon 
Opinel.

Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Christopher Swingley" 
> To put it into perspective I can understand, I looked up the steel in
> my favorite Opinel folder: X90 high carbon steel.  If the X90 actually
> indicates 0.9% carbon, that means the 440B and C could have as much
> carbon in them as my Opinel.  I've never met a stainless knife that
> could hold a candle to the $12 knife I carry in my pocket, but these
> numbers make me think it might be possible if carbon content is the
> metric that makes my folder so sharp, durable, and easy to sharpen.  I
> expect it's waaaay more complicated than that though...

> The 440 grades, A, B, and more recently C, are all high carbon,

Wow.  I had no idea.  My Gerber folding sportsman, purchased around
1970, is 440 C.

Mike in Sacto

The Clamp Guy wrote:
>There is a planar version of this, in which a square turns into a 
>rectangle with a different area.  The trick is that there is a long 
>narrow gap with an area of 1 square unit, so that (as I remember it) 
>a 7x7 turns into a 6x8.  I'll look it up.
>
>Milt

Hi Milt

I know this 2D/planar version (and have a copy)
But hat I'm really looking for is the "3D version" of this.

Thanks,
Nichael

>On 2/25/2015 10:09 AM, Nichael Cramer wrote:
>>Good morning all
>>
>>(Not a tool question, but a project question)
>>
>>There's an old type of puzzle box, in which you have a box.
>>In the box are multiple layers of pieces in a variety of shapes
>>which fill entire box.
>>
>>The puzzle is this:
>>You can take out all the pieces, and refill the box
>>with the pieces (in a different arrangement) in such a way
>>that when box is completely refilled there is a piece left over[*].
>>
>>Can anyone point to a webpage that contains a picture, description
>>and/or plans for this sort of puzzle?
>>
>>(I've been trying to google this but, alas, I don't seem to be able to ask
>>exactly the correct question.)
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Nichael
>>
>>
>>[* BTW, I know the solution here.  And those who know the solution
>>will realize that I've been slightly dishonest in my description. But
>>I didn't want to give away the secret in case someone didn't know it.]
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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