>From: Christopher Swingley


>Bob,
>On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 8:47 AM, RH Hutchins  wrote:
> Chris, did you take any shots of the winch you used in lifting the logs that
> support your bridge?
>No, but I think this is the one:
>http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00099FF
OI
>They make one with 100 feet of rope, but I couldn't get that locally,
>so I bought this model, and bought a bunch of rope, rope hooks, and
>those thingies you use to tie rope to itself.  The rope I bought
>worked well, but it did wear quite a bit during the process.

I watched a review the More Power Puller. The Wyeth-Scott company has been in
business since 1934 and has a strong following.
http://www.amazon.com/Ton-Ratchet-Puller-Amsteel-Blue/dp/B00455VCTY/ref
=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1422470013&sr=1-1&keywords=More+Power+Puller">http://ww
w.amazon.com/Ton-Ratchet-Puller-Amsteel-Blue/dp/B00455VCTY/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UT
F8&qid=1422470013&sr=1-1&keywords=More+Power+Puller
If anyone is interested the review can be found here. 
http://youtu.be/bQBiRQDoISs

Dave N. 
aka Old Sneelock

David,

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:35 AM, David Nighswander
 wrote:
> I watched a review the More Power Puller. The Wyeth-Scott company has been in
business since 1934 and has a strong following.

Nice.  Quite a hefty unit by comparison to what I used.  If there's a
disadvantage, however, it's that as you're winching, you accumulate
rope on spool of the unit, which will eventually become full and
you'll have to tie off the load and start again.  One of the things I
really like about the rope winch I used is that the rope only loops
through it so you can pull the full length of whatever length rope
you're using.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
http://swingleydev.com/
cswingle@s...

I have used a lot of come-alongs. I have always hated the ones with a cable.
Never tired one with  rope, but it sounds reasonable.

I own a couple of chain models, Chisolm-Moore, and they are excellent.


On Jan 28, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Christopher Swingley  wrote:

> David,
> 
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 9:35 AM, David Nighswander
>  wrote:
>> I watched a review the More Power Puller. The Wyeth-Scott company has been in
business since 1934 and has a strong following.
> 
> Nice.  Quite a hefty unit by comparison to what I used.  If there's a
> disadvantage, however, it's that as you're winching, you accumulate
> rope on spool of the unit, which will eventually become full and
> you'll have to tie off the load and start again.  One of the things I
> really like about the rope winch I used is that the rope only loops
> through it so you can pull the full length of whatever length rope
> you're using.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris
> -- 
> Christopher Swingley
> Fairbanks, Alaska
> http://swingleydev.com/
> cswingle@s...
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
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>From: James Thompson


>I have used a lot of come-alongs. I have always hated the ones with a cable.
Never tired one >with  rope, but it sounds reasonable.
> I own a couple of chain models, Chisolm-Moore, and they are excellent.

I agree Jim the cable pullers especially the inexpensive hardware store kind are
less than useful. I do have to mention that most of the cable pullers that I
struggled with were garage sale pieces. 40 years ago I used Yale chain model
come alongs at the Midwest Foundry. They were excellent. I don't recall ever
breaking one.
If I were flush I would own a couple of Yale come alongs now. 
I probably won’t own a More Power Puller either for similar reasons. The rope
instead of chain or cable is interesting because of the weight reduction
compared to chain, no fish hooks like in the cable, and being able to have 30
feet of pull.
In a real world comparison those old Yale units were in the dirt, sparks, and
heat every day. You couldn’t pull hard enough to break the chain because the
clutch would slip. That was in the days before straps were common and nearly
every sling was chain. Having to lug around two come alongs, four lengths of
three eighths log chain, and a 20 foot ladder would kill me now. Even if I
didn’t have a cigarette hanging out of the corner of my mouth while doing it.

Christopher Swingley wrote: 
>One of the things I really like about the rope winch I used is that the rope
only loops through it >so you can pull the full length of whatever length rope
you're using.

I’ve never used one of those but the extra length letting you pull without re-
rigging would be a big advantage for jobs like your bridge placement.

Dave N. 

aka Old Sneelock

On Jan 28, 2015, at 3:46 PM, David Nighswander  wrote:

> The rope instead of chain or cable is interesting because of the weight
reduction compared to chain, no fish hooks like in the cable, and being able to
have 30 feet of pull.


Rope is great stuff, but there is a problem.  With modern synthetics, the
braking strength of even small lines is very high, and you are tempted to buy a
line that will just barely handle your load.  Safety in this case is fine, but
that line will stretch quite a bit making things a little hard to handle.

On our tall ship, we use synthetic lines that are the same size as the original
natural fibers  Where the original 1” diameter hemp line would have a breaking
strength of about 4,000 pounds (when new!!), the synthetics that we us in the
same size have about 18,000 pound.

So the load is easier to handle with less stretch with a larger synthetic rope.

Ed Minch

Sent from Windows Mail





From: Ed Minch
 On Jan 28, 2015, at 3:46 PM, David Nighswander  wrote:

>> The rope instead of chain or cable is interesting because of the weight
reduction compared to chain, no fish hooks like in the cable, and being able to
have 30 feet of pull.

>Rope is great stuff, but there is a problem.  With modern synthetics, the
braking strength of even small lines is very high, and you are tempted to buy a
line that will just barely handle your load.  Safety in this case is fine, but
that line will stretch quite a bit making things a little hard to handle.
On our tall ship, we use synthetic lines that are the same size as the original
natural fibers  Where the original 1” diameter hemp line would have a breaking
strength of about 4,000 pounds (when new!!), the synthetics that we us in the
same size have about 18,000 pound.
>So the load is easier to handle with less stretch with a larger synthetic rope.



There are so many variables in the design, materials used, and how ropes are
used. I only know what I’ve read.
There is a wealth of information on synthetic Amsteel Blue rope at the Wyeth-
Scott website
https://www.wyeth-
scott.com/documents.asp
At Demmer Corporation we were redesigning the suspension on an 20,000 lb MRAP
Recovery Vehicle. On the winch it was rigged with 1” diameter blue rope instead
of chain or cable. In the vehicle specs it was claimed the rope was lighter,
stronger, and safer than chain or cable because it didn’t stretch. Without the
stretch it didn’t store energy like a cable or chain. If it broke under load it
didn’t whiplash but just dropped.

I’m assuming that they were referring to a straight pull. If it was going around
a block and lifting an object the stored energy in the load would cause it to
whip around the block.

Dave N. 
aka Old Sneelock

Dave

That is great stuff, and racing sailors use it for a lot things.  You would like
to have 7/16 or 1/2” material to make it easy to get your hands around, and 1/2"
Amsteel is $3.50 a foot as opposed to a good 3 strand at 30¢ to $1 foot.

Plus it doesn’t like sunlight


Ed Minch




On Jan 28, 2015, at 5:37 PM, David Nighswander  wrote:

> There are so many variables in the design, materials used, and how ropes are
used. I only know what I’ve read.
> There is a wealth of information on synthetic Amsteel Blue rope at the Wyeth-
Scott website
> https://www.wyeth-
scott.com/documents.asp

On getting a heavy object to go uphill without an anchor point at the  
top of the hill:

Lever the heavy object (e.g. a safe) onto a couple of long planks  
extending to the top of the hill (a.k.a. inside of the truck). Anchor  
the winch at the far end of the planks; commence pulling.  One can  
make sure the safe doesn't slide off the planks by building a saddle  
around the safe, after it's on the planks, with some two-by-fours and  
lag screws (oldtools content: use a brace & bit to bore the pilot  
holes and drive the screws ...).

On the breakage of come-alongs:

"Modern" ones have a built-in safety mechanism: The main lever simply  
bends when you've overdone it.  Of course, that usually leaves the  
load stranded, so to speak. Cheap bottle jacks are similar: that  
flimsy little telescopic tubular handle collapses when one pushes too  
hard. The designers may even have anticipated the substitution of a  
stronger handle such as a tire iron: then the pump's frame collapses.

On Christopher's A-frame and its over-center transport mechanism:

I once had a consulting job involving what was claimed to be the  
breakage of a chain binder (classic over-center mechanism). The  
opposing side calculated the force on the binder when it was "this  
close" to the over-center position and got sufficient force to break  
the thing.  [In actuality, they measured the force to break the binder  
and then worked backwards ...] Of course, starting from zero load  
(i.e., loose chain) one can't get there from here without the help of  
a gorilla and a ten foot long cheater pipe, which I proved with the  
use of two tensile testing machines working in tandem ... and also by  
doing the math. That was fun, and I didn't even have to use the  
defendant manufacturer's chain binder ... a different one that I got  
at the local hardware store. Plaintiff's expert agreed with me ...  
that was even more fun.

George Langford, who somehow managed to make some chuck springs  
yesterday in his unheated shed in SE PA by guessing the right mandrel  
size, wire size, and number of turns, all on the first try.

george@g... wrote:

>
> "Modern" ones have a built-in safety mechanism: The main lever simply bends
when you've overdone it.

On a loosely related theme, on a well designed vise, the length
and strength of the handle is designed to NOT allow a normal
human to destroy the vise.

This is sort of obvious (at least in hindsight,
or when you finally think about it consciously),
but was bought home to me when I acquired
a high quality forged-steel vise (not cast iron).
The handle was, by cast iron standards,
disproportionately both in length and strength.

This merely tells us that the vise is "quite robust"

Of course, all this careful design work
can be circumvented by a fool with a cheater bar.

  BugBear

From: paul womack




>>george@g... wrote:
>>
>> "Modern" ones have a built-in safety mechanism: The main lever simply bends
when you've overdone it.
>On a loosely related theme, on a well designed vise, the length
>and strength of the handle is designed to NOT allow a normal
>human to destroy the vise.
> 
>Of course, all this careful design work
>can be circumvented by a fool with a cheater bar.

If only the world was made for us abnormal humans. 
As a much younger man I ended up rebuilding and riding Harley Davidson
motorcycles. The 1940 thru 1956 models that came into my possession were made
with castings brazed to tubing. Because I was spending a great deal of time and
MONEY at Balance Harley Davidson in Battle Creek, MI, I got to know the owner.
He told me that the reason the frames were so heavy was that Harley Davidson
followed a rule. If it breaks double it.
As a 5’ tall 150 lb kid I knew that with a 9” long 9/16” box end wrench I could
pull as hard as I wanted and not break a 3/8 bolt.
At 6’1” and just shy of 300 lbs I have to pay attention to over tightening. 
As an engineer I found that it was necessary to equip the assembly line with
torque limiting drivers that stopped driving and free wheeled when it reached
max torque. The operators had a bad habit of giving the bolt just a bit more
after it seated and the old clicker wrench clicked. A 1/4-20 grade 8 bolt snaps
at approx. 16 foot lbs of torque. (I personally broke 100 of them to establish
the base line.) Prior to installing the new wrenches we had a crew of two
trained people using a tap burner to remove broken bolts.
People will be people. I managed to twist the drive shaft on a bush hog in two.
1. I was using a 5’ diameter bush hog to cut 6’ tall grass and wild rose bushes.
2. I had the bush hog connected to an 8N tractor that had been upgraded to a 6
cylinder engine. The resulting horsepower went from 30 to 95.
3. Some time in the distant past a previous owner operator had grown tired of
replacing the shear pin and replaced it with a grade 8 bolt.
Fortunately the driveshaft was light enough that it failed before the PTO shaft
did.

On Jan 29, 2015, at 6:21 AM, David Nighswander  wrote:

> 3. Some time in the distant past a previous owner operator had grown tired of
replacing the shear pin and replaced it with a grade 8 bolt.
> Fortunately the driveshaft was light enough that it failed before the PTO
shaft did.

When I first went to work as an instructor for apprentices at the Boilermaker’s
Union, I saw a good sized metal lathe on the floor of the shop, but I never saw
it being used. I asked if it would be OK for me to use it to cut some test pipe
segments for my apprentices to weld. I was told that the lathe didn’t work. I
asked it it would be OK for me to look at it and see what was wrong.

They said, “Oh. it’s broken. Some one allowed the carriage to drive itself into
the spinning chuck, and something went, ‘SNAP!’ “ Yep, some real machinists.

 Aha, says I, the old millwright, the drive shear pin is broken on the drive. So
I opened it up and replaced the broken shear pin, and all was right with the
lathe again. And this was considered to be miraculous. Not everyone is trained
to know how machinery functions.

>From: James Thompson



> Aha, says I, the old millwright, the drive shear pin is broken on the drive.
So I opened it >up and replaced the broken shear pin, and all was right with the
lathe again. And this was >considered to be miraculous. Not everyone is trained
to know how machinery functions.

And it’s men and women like you that keep us from living in the forest hunting
for bugs.
As long as you are willing to teach, the skills won’t be lost. 
That’s really a good thing cause I’ve eaten far to many bugs from my motorcycle
days.

Dave N. 

aka Old Sneelock

I've spent some time looking around old mines and logging shows where men
did a lot of hard work and didn't think anything about it, but the one that
I am always amazed about was a gear I stumbled across along the Chilkoot
Trail.  The Chilkoot was one of the major routes into the Klondike during
the gold rush days.  The Mounties required prospectors to bring 2000 pounds
of supplies with them before they would be allowed to enter Canada.  They
didn't want a bunch of Cheechakos to nursemaid although they ended up doing
a lot of that anyhow.  One of the tough spots along a tough trail was the
Golden Stairs, a steep pitch up to Chilkoot Pass -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Miners_climb_C
hilkoot.jpg/1280px-Miners_climb_Chilkoot.jpg">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe
dia/commons/thumb/4/40/Miners_climb_Chilkoot.jpg/1280px-
Miners_climb_Chilkoot.jpg

A lot of packers made more carrying loads up to the pass than digging for
gold.

Some years ago I hiked the trail from Dyea to Bennett Lake and it wasn't
unusual to still find items cast off by the horde.  The one that amazed me
was a cast iron gear.  We were 10's of miles from tide water when we came
upon the gear sitting in the woods, probably part of one of the several
tramways that were built to ease the passage over the pass.  This wasn't
just a gear; it was a GEAR!, maybe 6" thick and about as many feet in
diameter.  I have no idea what a chunk of cast iron that size weighs, but a
lot more than the load I was carrying.  I have tried to image how that
piece of iron got to where it sits now, but it must have taken a fair
amount of effort over uniformly bad trails.  I am not aware of any sort of
a "road" that followed that route and spots along the trail there today
wouldn't pass anything much wider than a mule.  Maybe one of these days
I'll hear the rest of the story.

Phil


On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 10:21 AM, David Nighswander <
wishingstarfarm663@m...> wrote:

> >From: James Thompson
>
>
>
> > Aha, says I, the old millwright, the drive shear pin is broken on the
> drive. So I opened it >up and replaced the broken shear pin, and all was
> right with the lathe again. And this was >considered to be miraculous. Not
> everyone is trained to know how machinery functions.
>
> And it’s men and women like you that keep us from living in the forest
> hunting for bugs.
> As long as you are willing to teach, the skills won’t be lost.
> That’s really a good thing cause I’ve eaten far to many bugs from my
> motorcycle days.
>
> Dave N.
>
> aka Old Sneelock
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@s...
> http://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

>From: james duprie

Lifting the extra distance to get to the truck bed involved a lot of adding
blocks, tilting, adding more blocks etc until it is the right height, then
sliding it into the truck (probably need rollers to move it forward to the
nose anyway). In order to keep it stable, I'd need a lot of good sized
blocking (or custom made supports), and still end up having to roll it to
the truck (about 80 feet). It just seems like the whole thing will be easier
of its done with rollers all the way...
(the object is about 65" wide by 50" long by about 48" tall)

Of course, I guess I could just rent a power pallet jack, but that wouldn't
>be any fun....

I apologize. I missed your point completely. 
With the opportunity to built a contraption for lifting and moving such a
mysterious object clearly defined then by all means bring on the timbers.

By building a structure with a sloping ramp leading up to a platform mounted on
4 pivoting legs the loading might be accomplished by creating a windlass with
sufficient cordage to reach from the rear mounted windlass under the frame of
the lifting device to a block mounted on the front of the platform. The cordage
can then be run back to the load and secured either with straps, slings, or a
secure dovetailed frame system around the base of the object.
Through the use of the windlass the load can be winched onto the platform.
After the load has been brought on board the platform, the block can be
remounted to the front of the base frame and the cordage attached to the front
of the platform.
Winching the front of the platform will cause it to raise up on the 4 pivoting
legs similar to the A Frame that Chris moved the bridge beam with.
Once the platform is raised and before the cordage can be removed from the block
and attached to a dead man anchor point, the lifting platform should have the
pivoting legs braced and pinned. With the platform secure the cordage can be
attached to the dead man buried in an appropriate location for drawing the load
to the truck. The windlass can again be used either straight pull or with the
block in place to double the tackle and increase the pulling power of the device
to pull the lifting structure over a set of rails, skids, caterpillar tracks, or
laid stone highway until it reaches the back of the truck.
With the lifting platform in the raised position, and the load in position, the
cordage and block can be rigged to pass through two blocks. One on either side
at the front of the platform.
With the blocks attached to the front of the platform the cordage can be routed
through the blocks and attached to the rear of the load using a dual sling to
allow the load to pass between the blocks on the platform.
Now the windlass can be used to draw the load onto the bed of the vehicle. 
In the event that the load needs to be moved to the nose of the truck, and the
truck bed is longer than the object, appropriate length extensions can be added
to the rear of the platform and braced securely. With the extensions in place
the cordage can be affixed to the end of the extensions and the windlass again
used to drive the load into the bed of the vehicle.
At which point all the assembly can be disassembled and either loaded with the
object or stored for the next adventure in lifting.

With a few trips to the local saw mill for timbers, the appropriate timber
framing tools, and a bit of assistance from the porch as to proper cordage and
windlass operation the task of building the device should comfortably fill the
two years prior to the event.

Haste makes waste. With a little luck there may be enough fallen timber in the
area to have the timbers milled from.

Dave N. 
aka Old Sneelock - who loves to design huge projects for others to accomplish.

On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 5:47 AM, paul womack 
wrote:

on a well designed vise, the length and strength of the handle is designed
to NOT allow a normal human to destroy the vise. a high quality
forged-steel vise (not cast iron).
The handle was, by cast iron standards, disproportionately both in length
and strength.
This merely tells us that the vise is "quite robust"

This explains the huge handle on my big (60 lb) post vise, and the large
forged balls on either end, to keep the cheater pipe off the handle!

Michael-who with meetings has gotten his vise problem under control, sort of

>From: Michael Suwczinsky
>
>This merely tells us that the vise is "quite robust"

>This explains the huge handle on my big (60 lb) post vise, and the large
>forged balls on either end, to keep the cheater pipe off the handle!

The vise with the large balls is safe in your shop because you understand what
they are for. At the foundry the Maintenance Dept had a pipe wrench with a 6’
long handle that was bent because someone (never knew who because they never did
say) put a pipe on the end of the handle. I was taught that If you use an 18”
pipe wrench to tighten you can loosen with a 24”. Must be they tightened the
pipe with the 6’ wrench and didn’t have a bigger one to loosen it.
During my interview tour of the United Technologies Aluminum Extrusion Plant I
noticed a 4’ pipe wrench attached to an hydraulic cylinder and anchored in place
with a chain binder. After I took the job as Maintenance Engineer/Supervisor it
was explained that the cylinder kept coming loose so they tied it down.
Not every person in the world is safe around tools. The ones that aren’t are
seldom deterred from their ways by common sense.
As God is my witness one of the men working for me (who shall remain nameless)
cut off an I Beam while he was standing on it. I had to make out the accident
report.

Dave N.
aka Old Sneelock
”Jack (not his name) get away from that wheelborrow. You know you don’t know
nothing about no chinery.”