OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

251824 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@s...> 2014‑11‑25 The future of OldTools
GGs,

For as long as I've been on the List (and I believe for it's entire
life), it's been hosted by the Cornell Legal Information Institute.  I
don't know the details of how this started, but I think it's due to
Tom Bruce, the director of LII, and his generosity.  He sent me email
last weekend when their server went down and asked me to think about
moving OldTools off their servers at some point in the future.  As it
stands now, our List is the only one on the system that went down
(ruckus), and it's likely more of a burden to their staff than it was
in the past when they were hosting many lists.  This system is also
running a fairly old version of the mailing list software, and can't
handle the changes AOL and Yahoo made to their mail servers.

These are at least two of probably many reasons why we should begin
the process of moving the List.  I believe I have a similar system set
up on my server (swingleydev.com), and I am willing to give this a
try, if that's where we want to go.  Other options are more than
welcome, but keep in mind that we will be looking for a long term home
with someone who is willing to make an effort to keep it running
smoothly.  The software doesn't have to be Mailman, but keeping it
with the same system is more likely to allow us to migrate accounts,
passwords and settings.

Let me know either on or off-List what you'all think.

Cheers,

ListMom Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
http://swingleydev.com/
cswingle@s...
251825 Peter Marquis-Kyle <peter@m...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
On 25/11/2014 1:12 PM, Christopher Swingley wrote:

>
> Let me know either on or off-List what you'all think.

Chris, I really appreciate the work you and the other mods have done in 
keeping this list going along so nicely in the past, and your offer to 
take over hosting.

And I must say how much I like the good old-fashioned mailing list 
format. I watched in dismay as another wonderful and active mailing list 
(on a different subject) turned itself into a web-based forum where all 
conversation has stopped.

-- 

Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au
251834 Greg Young Morris <GYoungMorris@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Agreed, Peter. I've only been subscribing to the List for a couple of
years, but I really like the mailing list format. I'm much more likely to
check the Old Tools folder in my constantly-open e-mail window than I ever
am to cruise over to one of the hundreds of indistinguishable woodworking
fora out there. Additionally, the mailing list format means that Old Tools
has the advantage of not being subject to the tyranny of subfora, which
though well-meaning, are often the death of a "normal" forum, serving to
break up and isolate the activity, and creating virtual wastelands of
seldom-read topics.

Finally, somehow the List feels more personal and friendly too, perhaps in
part because many of us use our real names, rather than hiding behind the
anonymity of avatars and usernames.

My two cents.

Greg

2014-11-24 21:41 GMT-06:00 Peter Marquis-Kyle :

> On 25/11/2014 1:12 PM, Christopher Swingley wrote:
> 
>
>>
>> Let me know either on or off-List what you'all think.
>>
>
> Chris, I really appreciate the work you and the other mods have done in
> keeping this list going along so nicely in the past, and your offer to take
> over hosting.
>
> And I must say how much I like the good old-fashioned mailing list format.
> I watched in dismay as another wonderful and active mailing list (on a
> different subject) turned itself into a web-based forum where all
> conversation has stopped.
>
> --
>
> Peter Marquis-Kyle
> www.marquis-kyle.com.au
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
251835 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
> On Nov 24, 2014, at 10:12 PM, Christopher Swingley  wrote:
> 
> GGs,
> 
> For as long as I've been on the List (and I believe for it's entire
> life), it's been hosted by the Cornell Legal Information Institute. [snip]
> 
> These are at least two of probably many reasons why we should begin
> the process of moving the List.  I believe I have a similar system set
> up on my server (swingleydev.com), and I am willing to give this a
> try, if that's where we want to go.  Other options are more than
> welcome, but keep in mind that we will be looking for a long term home
> with someone who is willing to make an effort to keep it running
> smoothly.  The software doesn't have to be Mailman, but keeping it
> with the same system is more likely to allow us to migrate accounts,
> passwords and settings.
> 
> Let me know either on or off-List what you'all think.
> 
> 
> ————————————————————————————————————

        If you are willing to host the list, I can’t imagine it being in better
hands.  Thanks for all you do to keep the Porch rockin’.

Regards,
Steve------------------------------------------------------------------------
251836 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
I completely agree with Greg.

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014, Greg Young Morris 
wrote:

> Agreed, Peter. I've only been subscribing to the List for a couple of
> years, but I really like the mailing list format. I'm much more likely to
> check the Old Tools folder in my constantly-open e-mail window than I ever
> am to cruise over to one of the hundreds of indistinguishable woodworking
> fora out there. Additionally, the mailing list format means that Old Tools
> has the advantage of not being subject to the tyranny of subfora, which
> though well-meaning, are often the death of a "normal" forum, serving to
> break up and isolate the activity, and creating virtual wastelands of
> seldom-read topics.
>
> Finally, somehow the List feels more personal and friendly too, perhaps in
> part because many of us use our real names, rather than hiding behind the
> anonymity of avatars and usernames.
>
> My two cents.
>
> Greg
>
> 2014-11-24 21:41 GMT-06:00 Peter Marquis-Kyle  >:
>
> > On 25/11/2014 1:12 PM, Christopher Swingley wrote:
> > 
> >
> >>
> >> Let me know either on or off-List what you'all think.
> >>
> >
> > Chris, I really appreciate the work you and the other mods have done in
> > keeping this list going along so nicely in the past, and your offer to
> take
> > over hosting.
> >
> > And I must say how much I like the good old-fashioned mailing list
> format.
> > I watched in dismay as another wonderful and active mailing list (on a
> > different subject) turned itself into a web-based forum where all
> > conversation has stopped.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Peter Marquis-Kyle
> > www.marquis-kyle.com.au
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruc
kus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/arc
hive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> >
> > OldTools@r... 
> > http://ruc
kus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r... 
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
251837 Scott Garrison <sbg2008@c...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
I don't know the right answer - I defer to those who know more about
hosting/protocols, et al but getting an email [or way too many ;-) ] does
help keep the list in front of me. There are an awful lot of really good
web-based sites out there but their flaws have been mentioned, irrelevancy,
too narrowly tuned categories, whatever. So I may not know what is right
but it is easy to see what would be wrong.

I fear the above is not even worth two cents

Scott
Duluth GA
251838 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
On 2014-11-25 5:07 AM, Steve Reynolds wrote:
>       If you are willing to host the list, I can’t imagine it being in better
hands.  Thanks for all you do to keep the Porch rockin’.

Agreed. Will you need $ support to do it?

Don
251839 Kenneth Stagg <kenneth.stagg@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
I agree as well.  I'd also like to say how much I appreciate you and the
rest of the admin team keeping things going on an even keel.

-Ken​

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:00 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> On 2014-11-25 5:07 AM, Steve Reynolds wrote:
>
>>         If you are willing to host the list, I can’t imagine it being in
>> better hands.  Thanks for all you do to keep the Porch rockin’.
>>
>
> Agreed. Will you need $ support to do it?
>
> Don
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
251840 Bruce Zenge <brucensherry@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Chris,

I'll add my two pennies worth.  I also appreciate all the work you and
the past list moms have done to keep us running.  Since I am basically
tech illiterate, I leave it in your capable hands.  Whatever you
decide to do is absolutely fine with me.  It will seem rather strange
to have a different server, but I have been surprised Cornell hasn't
come to this point previously.

Again, thanks and go for it.

Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA
Who has also been around for a while........
251841 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Chris, I agree: a mailing list, you (and other list moms have done
brilliantly, and let us know if money is needed wherever it transitions to.

Bill
Felton, CA

On Monday, November 24, 2014, Christopher Swingley 
wrote about having to probably move the oldtools list to a new server,
snipped per FAQ.
251842 CheekyGeek <cheekygeek@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
I don't want to put words in Christopher's mouth, but I read his original
post as saying that regardless of whether or not he puts the listserv on
swingleydev.com right now, "we will be looking for a long term home". I
think that what Chris is saying is that swingleydev.com would be a stopgap
solution, not the end all solution.

If I'm reading that right, then The Porch would probably be best served
going with a stable commercial entity that knows how to handle Mailman
hosting. A quick Googling turns up the following possiblities:

https://www.mailmanlist.net/

http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html

Big list: ht
tp://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Mailman+hosting+services

I would recommend doing a little research to pick a hosting company that
has been around a while. One can look up the WHOIS record on the domain, in
many cases to see when it was registered. Any of these services will be
relatively inexpensive and the costs can probably be covered simply by the
ListMom letting the group know that they are in need of funds for the
annual bill (or however often). When there ceases to be enough support for
that, then I would say the ListServ has reached its End of Life. Any Galoot
with the desire and the means could certainly provide for the continuing
costs by amending their will and making a bequest or planned gift.

Respectfully,
Darren Addy
Kearney, Nebraska
251845 RH Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
On 11/25/2014 10:12 AM, CheekyGeek wrote:
> I don't want to put words in Christopher's mouth, but I read his original
> post as saying that regardless of whether or not he puts the listserv on
> swingleydev.com right now, "we will be looking for a long term home". I
> think that what Chris is saying is that swingleydev.com would be a stopgap
> solution, not the end all solution.
>
> If I'm reading that right, then The Porch would probably be best served
> going with a stable commercial entity that knows how to handle Mailman
> hosting. A quick Googling turns up the following possiblities:
>
> https://www.mailmanlist.net/
>
> http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html">http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html
>
> Big list: 
http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Mailman+hosting+services
>
> I would recommend doing a little research to pick a hosting company that
> has been around a while. One can look up the WHOIS record on the domain, in
> many cases to see when it was registered. Any of these services will be
> relatively inexpensive and the costs can probably be covered simply by the
> ListMom letting the group know that they are in need of funds for the
> annual bill (or however often). When there ceases to be enough support for
> that, then I would say the ListServ has reached its End of Life. Any Galoot
> with the desire and the means could certainly provide for the continuing
> costs by amending their will and making a bequest or planned gift.
>
> Respectfully,
> Darren Addy
> Kearney, Nebraska
Yes, I think Darren has hit the nail squarely on the head.  That 
Christopher is willing to provide a stopgap by hosting the list is no 
less than I would have expected from him.  His character is well known 
and admired  by all present.

For the future, I agree that the list should hosted by an appropriate 
entity whose business it is to do such things.  I have hosted a couple 
of HTML web sites with forums on GoDaddy, but I don't know if they are 
capable of handling a mailing list nor what the costs would be.  I bring 
them up as an example to add my agreement to what Mr. Addy pointed out.  
Because I know nothing about how a mail list server works, I can add 
nothing to the process of vetting potential hosts; however, I'll do what 
little I can if called upon.  As for costs, we don't know what they will 
be; but I'm in for as much of an annual contribution as I can make.

Most importantly, I add my thanks and admiration to Christopher and to 
the folks at Cornell Law.  Their contributions are legendary and very 
much appreciated.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX, USA
251846 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@s...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Darren, GGs

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:12 AM, CheekyGeek  wrote:
> I don't want to put words in Christopher's mouth, but I read his original
> post as saying that regardless of whether or not he puts the listserv on
> swingleydev.com right now, "we will be looking for a long term home". I
> think that what Chris is saying is that swingleydev.com would be a stopgap
> solution, not the end all solution.

Thanks.  Actually, I'm not opposed to being the long term maintainer
of the List on my server, but never having managed a list this large
(I've managed Mailman lists with around 50 users in the past), I
wanted to leave myself a little wiggle room should it turn out to be
much more than I was expecting.  So I think I'd characterize my server
as a probable long-term home, but certainly a stopgap, should it turn
out to be too much for me to handle.

I'm also not opposed to using a Mailman hosting service like one of
the ones you found, but I think that'd be a backup solution to having
an interested member (like me) host it.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
http://swingleydev.com/
cswingle@s...
251851 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Let me join in appreciation to those who have served as List Moms and who have
been in positions of having to give their time and resources to keep this list
going.   To some, the format of this list will seem old fashioned, but I find
that it is conducive to thinking about your questions and answers, and thinking
twice about including photographs.  If I have a vote, it is to keep this format.

Thanks to all who have participated over the last 16 years that I have been on
board.
 
Ed Minch



> On Monday, November 24, 2014, Christopher Swingley 
> wrote about having to probably move the oldtools list to a new server,
> snipped per FAQ.
251852 John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: Re: The future of OldTools
For me personally, if it were to come down to some sort of an annual fee to
be a member, I would be willing to participate in order to keep things
going.  The thing I like about a mailing list like this is that, you don't
get a lot of extraneous chatter with which you have no interest.  On most
web based or social media sites, you certainly can have forums, but you
also get a lot of stuff you didn't want.  They are also easily targeted by
spammers and the like.  My 2 cents worth is that I like this format and
would be willing to pay to keep it that way.

Doc


On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Gary Katsanis 
wrote:

> Perhaps I am speaking for myself, and the good Lord knows I don't have a
> lot of dollars looking to spend themselves on something.  That said, I
> think it's reasonable for the Porch to offer some financial support in
> consideration of the ongoing maintenance of the mailing list.
>
> Am I alone in this?
>
> Gary Katsanis
> Albion NY, USA
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject:        Re: [OldTools] The future of OldTools
> Date:   Tue, 25 Nov 2014 09:01:16 -0900
> From:   Christopher Swingley 
> To:     Darren Addy 
> CC:     OldTools List 
>
>
>
> Darren, GGs
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:12 AM, CheekyGeek  wrote:
>
>> I don't want to put words in Christopher's mouth, but I read his original
>> post as saying that regardless of whether or not he puts the listserv on
>> swingleydev.com right now, "we will be looking for a long term home". I
>> think that what Chris is saying is that swingleydev.com would be a
>> stopgap
>> solution, not the end all solution.
>>
>
> Thanks.  Actually, I'm not opposed to being the long term maintainer
> of the List on my server, but never having managed a list this large
> (I've managed Mailman lists with around 50 users in the past), I
> wanted to leave myself a little wiggle room should it turn out to be
> much more than I was expecting.  So I think I'd characterize my server
> as a probable long-term home, but certainly a stopgap, should it turn
> out to be too much for me to handle.
>
> I'm also not opposed to using a Mailman hosting service like one of
> the ones you found, but I think that'd be a backup solution to having
> an interested member (like me) host it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
> --
> Christopher Swingley
> Fairbanks, Alaska
> http://swingleydev.com/
> cswingle@s...
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>



-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484
251853 "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" <rohrabacher@e...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Yahoo groups operates just like this list plus it's got photo hosting.
I belong to a couple of them one for rocking chairs and one for Felder 
owners and another for Turbocad files.  There's a  Festertool group  a 
MiniMax group;  why not one for Old Tools?

The emails come with the heading of the group's name, you can cut and 
paste images to emails, there is a Yahoo maintained library of all old 
list mails, you can upload PDFs to the group's libraries
251854 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
As some other Galoots have said, i believe  that the format of this list is
just fine. I saw us trashed on another site as being "archaic".  That
caused a bit of a grin.. Yes we are! And kinda proud of it.

 Obviously someone else is doing the work and I benefit gratis, but
I really would hate to see this become a forum with all sorts  of
cubbyholes for different highly specialized interests. Those places already
exist.  I used to be part of the gang over at Wood Central Hand Tools,but
it got to the place where there was a whole lot of technique talk about
cordless demons and how dumb it was to use hand tools for lots of things.
We don't get that here, and I am grateful. Would be glad to help
financially, if the changes call for it.

Ron a Kokomo Galoot






https://www.facebook.com/groups/213418935481974/permalink/4097715825133
74/">https://www.facebook.com/groups/213418935481974/permalink/409771582513374/<
/a>
 format

On Tuesday, November 25, 2014, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq <
rohrabacher@e...> wrote:

> Yahoo groups operates just like this list plus it's got photo hosting.
> I belong to a couple of them one for rocking chairs and one for Felder
> owners and another for Turbocad files.  There's a  Festertool group  a
> MiniMax group;  why not one for Old Tools?
>
> The emails come with the heading of the group's name, you can cut and
> paste images to emails, there is a Yahoo maintained library of all old list
> mails, you can upload PDFs to the group's libraries
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
251855 David Carradine <David.Carradine@b...> 2014‑11‑25 RE: Re: The future of OldTools
GG's,

I would also like to express my appreciation for the time and effort put forth
to keep this list going.  Archaic or not I like it and I would repeat Docs'
sentiments below.

Cheers,
Grasshopper

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of John Holladay
Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2014 8:08 a.m.
To: Gary Katsanis
Cc: oldtools
Subject: Re: Re: [OldTools] The future of OldTools

For me personally, if it were to come down to some sort of an annual fee to be a
member, I would be willing to participate in order to keep things going.  The
thing I like about a mailing list like this is that, you don't get a lot of
extraneous chatter with which you have no interest.  On most web based or social
media sites, you certainly can have forums, but you also get a lot of stuff you
didn't want.  They are also easily targeted by spammers and the like.  My 2
cents worth is that I like this format and would be willing to pay to keep it
that way.

Doc
251856 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Dear Chris,
Thank you for the years you have been waiting in the wings to tweak the system
when some new internet update throws the list into a spin.
As a recent member I can only say that during the time I have been on the list I
have greatly enjoyed it.
The format is just one of the things I like about participating. If I’m busy I
can come back to it and catch up at the end of the week if necessary. Having the
list moms available at almost all times is a great benefit for those times when
I just can’t get past the current sticking point.
Having a place to discuss this one simple, archaic though it is, thing that I
greatly enjoy is only second to the fine group of Galoots who encourage with
compassion for the poor sods who just don’t get it.
If you are willing to shoulder the burden once again I will gladly support you
in any way possible.
As long as you can keep my participation from coming to the attention of the
home moms.







Sent from Windows Mail





From: Christopher Swingley
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎November‎ ‎25‎, ‎2014 ‎1‎:‎01‎ ‎PM
To: CheekyGeek
Cc: oldtools@r...





Darren, GGs

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 7:12 AM, CheekyGeek  wrote:
> I don't want to put words in Christopher's mouth, but I read his original
> post as saying that regardless of whether or not he puts the listserv on
> swingleydev.com right now, "we will be looking for a long term home". I
> think that what Chris is saying is that swingleydev.com would be a stopgap
> solution, not the end all solution.

Thanks.  Actually, I'm not opposed to being the long term maintainer
of the List on my server, but never having managed a list this large
(I've managed Mailman lists with around 50 users in the past), I
wanted to leave myself a little wiggle room should it turn out to be
much more than I was expecting.  So I think I'd characterize my server
as a probable long-term home, but certainly a stopgap, should it turn
out to be too much for me to handle.

I'm also not opposed to using a Mailman hosting service like one of
the ones you found, but I think that'd be a backup solution to having
an interested member (like me) host it.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
http://swingleydev.com/
cswingle@s...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
251857 "Stager, Scott P." <StagerS@m...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
I am on a regional list run on Yahoo groups.  It is becoming more and more
difficult to deal with.  They hide the identity of the original poster.    No
sign of their original email address.  That makes it impossible to reply
directly to them instead of the list.  And just recently with a mail client
update, the originator of the message isn’t even displayed in the message list.
Every one of my inbox messages from the group now says that it is from:

—listname---<—listname--@y...>

I have to open the mail just to see who it is from - and that only works if the
poster bothered to put their name in the message.

The originator email is buried in the massive list of hidden headers using some
tag name, but my mail client doesn’t look for it.  My client is the latest
version of Mac Mail, so should be pretty up to date.

Our group puts some (not all) of the attached photos on a Yahoo server somewhere
where one has to open them from links in the mail.  But occasionally a photo
shows up in the actual mail.  No idea what/who decides which way to go.  Maybe a
yahoo group setting somewhere.

Not a fan of Yahoo

—Scott

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 1:08 PM, Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq  wrote:
> 
> Yahoo groups operates just like this list plus it's got photo hosting.
> I belong to a couple of them one for rocking chairs and one for Felder owners
and another for Turbocad files.  There's a  Festertool group  a MiniMax group;
why not one for Old Tools?
> 
> The emails come with the heading of the group's name, you can cut and paste
images to emails, there is a Yahoo maintained library of all old list mails, you
can upload PDFs to the group's libraries
251858 "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" <rohrabacher@e...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
On 11/25/2014 3:19 PM, Stager, Scott P. wrote:
> They hide the identity of the original poster.    No sign of their original
email address.  That makes it impossible to reply directly to them instead of
the list.


I suspect that's something the  list managers did.   On the Yahoo groups 
lists to which I belong I get all the  addresses just as if they were 
coming to me personally.  So if I want to send a personal private reply 
I can, no problem.

I don't understand the thinking in a couple other posts  that somehow 
using Yahoo might  risk  - - - what was the phrase - - - "cubbyholes" 
and "special interest"  to any degree beyond what the list operators 
(read: mods)  would create; as if oldtools is not already somewhat 
special interest and somewhat narrowly defined already. After all, it is 
all about the old tools.

Anyway, I am not advocating for a switch to any particular format or 
server ( maybe if they'd pay me),  I'm responding to Chris Swingley's 
request for options and opinions,  and mine is that Yahoo is a fine 
platform worth investigating.
251859 galoot@l... 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Quoting "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" :

> Yahoo groups operates just like this list plus it's got photo
hosting.
> I belong to a couple of them one for rocking chairs and one for 
> Felder owners and another for Turbocad files.  There's a 
Festertool
> group  a MiniMax group;  why not one for Old Tools?
>

I would _strongly_ vote against anything connected with Yahoo!!
Historical overview:
In the beginning Tom Bruce and the 4 musketeers got together and 
started the list, hosted by Tom at Cornell and life was good.

Some time later somebody subscribed us to an outfit called findgroups 
and after some discussion we decided we didn't mind the public archive 
instead of the Cornell one, and life was still good.

Findgroups was taken over by egroups (I may have the names reversed) 
and there was a little less explanation of what a listserv was but you 
could still get the faq and life was still ok.

Egroups was taken over by Yahoo and life became very annoying.  The 
group on Yahoo looked like a yahoo group but you still had to subscribe 
at Cornell so the listmoms had continuing questions from people who 
couldn't understand why they couldn't post after they signed up (at 
Yahoo not Cornell),  Yahoo had seriously truncated the previous FAQ and 
didn't include the pointer to it, and either people were missing the 
pointer at the bottom of the message or we weren't doing that yet.  I 
actually went to Yahoo and signed up through them to see what it would 
tell me and the answer was nothing that we expect newcomers to know.

The final straw was when something happened to the fake user they used 
to get the content and their messages all started bouncing, and we 
could not get ANYONE at Yahoo to fix it (ie can't connect to a real 
person to explain the problem, much less do something).  We ditched 
Yahoo and life was again very good.

The Yahoo business model seems to be you give us free content and we 
will advertise.  The further problem is now you have to become a "Yahoo 
user" which I am pretty unwilling to to with anything where I am a 
product to advertisers not a paying customer (why I won't consider 
Facebook etc.)

The remains of the Yahoo version are at 
https://groups.yaho
o.com/neo/groups/oldtools/info, compare their FAQ
with the one linked at the bottom of this message.  There hasn't been 
_that_ much change since then.

My concern is whether Chris is prepared to make this a lifetime 
project. The Usenet group rec.crafts.jewelry went moderated in 1997 to 
cut off the spam mess that made most un-moderated Usenet unuseable, and 
15 years later the moderator was still stuck with it... I tried to 
check it and Google apparently now requires you to join Google to 
access what is supposed to be a free public access group (I doubt the 
library would like me to download a newsreader).

No matter who the host is, my biggest priority is access to a real 
person by the listmom if something goes wrong.  I also second the 
listserv not web-based format.  I have no problem contributing a few 
$$/yr to the cause.

Esther
251860 Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:49 PM, galoot@l... wrote:
> .
> 
> No matter who the host is, my biggest priority is access to a real person by
the listmom if something goes wrong.  I also second the listserv not web-based
format.  I have no problem contributing a few $$/yr to the cause.

Esther said it well so just a "me too" here. 

Bill
251861 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2014‑11‑25 Re: The future of OldTools
On Tuesday, November 25, 2014, Bill Ghio  wrote:

>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:49 PM, galoot@l...  wrote:
> > .
> >
> > No matter who the host is, my biggest priority is access to a real
> person by the listmom if something goes wrong.  I also second the listserv
> not web-based format.  I have no problem contributing a few $$/yr to the
> cause.
>
> Esther said it well so just a "me too" here.
>
>
> I will jump on Esther's bandwagon as well.

Agreeing whole heartedly that the Yahoo versions are great low pressure
regions as well.

Kirk in HMB, getting mom a new W7 pc, cuz newest technology isn't always
best.


-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors.
Kirk
251863 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
After giving a piece of my heart and a chunk of my life to the Oldtools 
Porch,
  hanging with you all, and belonging somewhere.....Where everybody 
knows your name.....

         Here we are at the crossroads.
The last trace of innocence, from the old listserv, seems to be slipping 
away from us.

  We've had narrow escapes over the years. Plenty of times they almost 
showed us the door, and certainly could have on a whim.  But somehow 
Galoots always survived.
Somehow we supplanted ourselves onto the new owners of the old broadcast 
equipment, and we got them to grandfather us in.

   I feel a little like a grandfather. Maybe because I am?
  Is it really possible they'll toss us to the wolves?
  Will we have to land pitiful destitute, on poor Chris's doorstep,
  who has already carried our tired old bones for so long?
       Have we actually entered a Charles Dickens plot?

         Yahoo didn't work for the Old House Gang. My only other 
webgroup these past decades. Its very tiny though. Under 30 members at 
its zenith.
  From an old college listserv just like this, to a members' back closet 
(who set up old scrounged server parts and rag tagged it together for 
years).

     We tried to migrate it to Yahoo. Started a Facebook group too.
   Neither worked so well.

  Its all so much "less personal" out there in the cold world.  You have 
to beat back the night, compared to just breathing, here on the Porch.

The oldschool listserv delivers mail like a relative. Real mail, real 
names, real Galoots.
   And the mail is coming. Its coming whether you are ready or not. You 
need to deal with it.
   Sometimes its the needing to deal with the mail, that keeps it real. 
Helps keep me real too, I guess.

  When something is just posted to a standard, well whatever they call 
the formally formatted bulletin boards like, woodcentral, woodnet, etc
  well, its easier to ignore those.

   Shall I beg for my life now?
Shall I beg to try and keep the last of the old friends and old times 
and old feelings?
    Shall I do a last ditch Bio update?

   Some year for me. I honestly don't know what is happening this year.
My old drummer died of heart failure. My bass player died of stroke. My 
wife of 40 years, rhythm guitar, heart attack.
   One of my closest friends just had a surgery that has left him 
paralyzed, hopefully temporarily, but its spinal column, so all bets are 
off.

  My own third heart procedure got me booted from the Fire Department. 
(in the kindest possible way)  And a clerical error got me relieved from 
the local Sewer District governing board.
  Both of these were grateful retirements though.  Whew.
I'd paid enough dues with both of those organizations.


  But today, it just seems like...........
        Whats going on?   What am I doing here?
    Who did I used to be, and who am I now?
      Does it get any freakier than this?
              yours Scott








-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



-----
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251865 Malcolm Thomas <idraconus@i...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
Yeah if membership fees or donations are required to keep this list going, then
i am in.

I hope we can keep this list as is. But if, and i repeat If, our only hope of
survival is in a different format, we may need to be prepared for that.

I hope it does not come to that though.

Cheers
Mal

Sent from my iPhone

> On 26 Nov 2014, at 7:30 am, Kirk Eppler  wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday, November 25, 2014, Bill Ghio  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:49 PM, galoot@l...  wrote:
>>> .
>>> 
>>> No matter who the host is, my biggest priority is access to a real
>> person by the listmom if something goes wrong.  I also second the listserv
>> not web-based format.  I have no problem contributing a few $$/yr to the
>> cause.
>> 
>> Esther said it well so just a "me too" here.
>> 
>> 
>> I will jump on Esther's bandwagon as well.
> 
> Agreeing whole heartedly that the Yahoo versions are great low pressure
> regions as well.
> 
> Kirk in HMB, getting mom a new W7 pc, cuz newest technology isn't always
> best.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors.
> Kirk
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
251866 Mike Rock <mikerock@m...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
I'd like to thank Chris and hope to stick with him.  His computer will 
probably outlive many of us.   Other lists have died a horrible death of 
a thousand cuts when hosted by the biggies.  In a word, they suck.
This list is my second home.

God bless all.

Mike
251867 Ray Gardiner <ray@e...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
In addition to thanking Chris for everything he has done for the List,  I'd
like to propose a warm vote of thanks to Cornell Law, and the
administrators who have been kind enough to provide a safe secure physical
home for the list.

There comes time when we have to move on,   finding a physical home is
probably the easy part,  and it will probably cost money to get the degree
of physical security and connectivity that's required.

Maybe we can start a crowd funding project, or should that be galoot
funded..  either way  I'm in.

Secondly there is administration and maintenance,  I'm not sure what
on-site workload the Cornell Law folks have been carrying, but I would
expect that workload would pass to the hosting provider, and remote
administration would be orchestrated by the List Moms...    Without
knowing, I suspect Chris does a lot of unheralded work behind the scenes
keeping the wheels turning smoothly..

Regards
Ray
251868 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
> In addition to thanking Chris for everything he has done for the List,  
> I'd
> like to propose a warm vote of thanks to Cornell Law, and the
> administrators who have been kind enough to provide a safe secure 
> physical
> home for the list.

Well said.  I've just been watching the posts here since I haven't much 
knowledge
about such things.  But maybe I know a bit more than I thought.

First, the feel of the list is really about the members and how we 
interact,
what we want to see here.  It can take a bit of moderating, and some 
good and
sensible rules (like no flaming, no politics, no religion stuff) -- 
pretty much
what I see here on the porch.

How to set it all up, how much financing is needed, I don't know.  But I 
do know
that there is nothing about yahoo groups that would keep the flow of 
things going
just like it has here.  I belong to several, and the only difference 
among them
is who is on them and how they are moderated.

I don't think we would really notice a change if we took Old Tools to 
Yahoo.
OK, there's the new Social Media vocabulary, which often nauseates me.  
But
for the most part all you see is emails and responses, just like we do 
here.

If it takes some kind of Galoot financing ...  Well, it will be the 
cheapest
porch we've ever lived on.  It's too good, and there's too much 
friendship
here to let it slide.  And Scott G won't be worth a Galoot hoot without 
us.

Mike in Sacto
251869 <roygriggs@c...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
As a lurker for the past while I will go with the majority!

---- Michael Blair  wrote: 
> > In addition to thanking Chris for everything he has done for the List,  
> > I'd
> > like to propose a warm vote of thanks to Cornell Law, and the
> > administrators who have been kind enough to provide a safe secure 
> > physical
> > home for the list.
> 
> Well said.  I've just been watching the posts here since I haven't much 
> knowledge
> about such things.  But maybe I know a bit more than I thought.
> 
> First, the feel of the list is really about the members and how we 
> interact,
> what we want to see here.  It can take a bit of moderating, and some 
> good and
> sensible rules (like no flaming, no politics, no religion stuff) -- 
> pretty much
> what I see here on the porch.
> 
> How to set it all up, how much financing is needed, I don't know.  But I 
> do know
> that there is nothing about yahoo groups that would keep the flow of 
> things going
> just like it has here.  I belong to several, and the only difference 
> among them
> is who is on them and how they are moderated.
> 
> I don't think we would really notice a change if we took Old Tools to 
> Yahoo.
> OK, there's the new Social Media vocabulary, which often nauseates me.  
> But
> for the most part all you see is emails and responses, just like we do 
> here.
> 
> If it takes some kind of Galoot financing ...  Well, it will be the 
> cheapest
> porch we've ever lived on.  It's too good, and there's too much 
> friendship
> here to let it slide.  And Scott G won't be worth a Galoot hoot without 
> us.
> 
> Mike in Sacto
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

--
roy griggs
roygriggs@c...
251870 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
Stager, Scott P. wrote:
  >
> Not a fan of Yahoo

OK. British Sarcasm Mode firmly ON.

"I believe that yahoo as a modern, social media company has a long
term commitment to simple mailing lists, implemented via a central
server over email"

   BugBear (breaking down in hysterical giggling)
251873 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
And we, without him

Ed Minch




On Nov 25, 2014, at 11:07 PM, Michael Blair  wrote:

> And Scott G won't be worth a Galoot hoot without us.
251876 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑11‑26 Re: The future of OldTools
Aye.

On 2014-11-26 04:35, Ed Minch wrote:
> And we, without him

> 
>> And Scott G won't be worth a Galoot hoot without us.

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