Galoots

I'd like to soak some wooden tools I'm making in linseed oil. I was
reading "Spons on Carpentry and Joinery" and it says:

"The wooden parts of tools, such as the stocks of planes and handles
or chisels, are often made to have a nice appearance by French
polishing; but this adds nothing to their durability. A much better
plan is to let them soak in linseed oil for a week, and rub them with
a cloth for a few minutes every day for a week or two. This produces a
beautiful surface, and at the same time exerts a solidifying and
preservative action on the wood"

Bob Flexner's book "Understanding wood finishing" says:

"You can put a straight grained piece of wood into a jar containing a
half-inch of oil finish and the finish will eventually work its way up
through the wood and come out the top. Only if the finish cures hard
in the wood, preventing further penetration, or if it hardens in the
jar, or if it evaporates will the penetration be stopped."

So I decided to try a piece of wood. I filled a jar with about 1" of
linseed oil, and put a 12" x 1" x 1/2" piece of red maple into it (so
11" were in air). Here are the results.

day 1: about 3" of penetration, and the 3" was fairly uniform over the width
day 2: about 1" more, but only in a narrow section (not uniform over the width)
day 3: the narrow section grew 1/8" in length
days 4 - 8: unchanged
day 9: the cats knocked over the jar and made a mess

The linseed oil was from a health food store, so it contained no
metallic driers, and it never hardened in the jar, but the viscosity
did seem to increase.

What am I doing wrong? Should I completely immerse the wood? Or should
some end grain be exposed to air?

Thank you for your responses in advance,
Chris

On 10/14/2014 9:04 AM, Christopher Dunn wrote:
> I'd like to soak some wooden tools I'm making in linseed oil. I was
> reading "Spons on Carpentry and Joinery" and it says:
>
> "The wooden parts of tools, such as the stocks of planes and handles
> or chisels, are often made to have a nice appearance by French
> polishing; but this adds nothing to their durability. A much better
> plan is to let them soak in linseed oil for a week, and rub them with
> a cloth for a few minutes every day for a week or two. This produces a
> beautiful surface, and at the same time exerts a solidifying and
> preservative action on the wood"
>
> Bob Flexner's book "Understanding wood finishing" says:
>
> "You can put a straight grained piece of wood into a jar containing a
> half-inch of oil finish and the finish will eventually work its way up
> through the wood and come out the top. Only if the finish cures hard
> in the wood, preventing further penetration, or if it hardens in the
> jar, or if it evaporates will the penetration be stopped."
>

Can't answer your question. But IIIRC, we have been told that BLO 
promotes fungal growth over the long term, so you might want to 
reconsider soaking your tools in it. Can't seem to locate the source of 
that info just now.
For my part, I have soaked the throats of old woodies a few times, and 
it closed up visible splits. These tools were neither collectible nor of 
my own make so any downside is minimal, and I've not noticed any sign of 
fungus in them.

FWIW
Don

I've heard that BLO promotes some kind of fungal growth over time,
and museum standards prohibit use of BLO.  But it seems the operant
word here is it *might* promote fungal growth.  I've never seen any
fungal rot on linseed oiled wooden tools.  I have one plane that is
over 200 years old, and I know it was treated with linseed oil.

Before they learned the error of their ways, museum practices did use
BLO.

I don't know about soaking in linseed oil though.  Seems unnecessary.
I wipe tools down with it, let it dry, and maybe put on a couple more
coats.  But if you want to take the BLO more deeply into the wood,
another now abandoned museum practice was to mix BLO with an equal
amount of turpentine to increase penetration.  I've done this with
a number of old tools and found it efficient.  Put enough on to soak
in, repeat a few times.  A coat of pure BLO after the mixture has
dried will take care of the surface.

Mike in Sacto

Didn’t someone say that this practice increases the weight of a plane
considerably?

Ed Minch




On Oct 14, 2014, at 11:55 AM, Don Schwartz  wrote:

> 
> On 10/14/2014 9:04 AM, Christopher Dunn wrote:
>> I'd like to soak some wooden tools I'm making in linseed oil. I was
>> reading "Spons on Carpentry and Joinery" and it says:
>> 
>> "The wooden parts of tools, such as the stocks of planes and handles
>> or chisels, are often made to have a nice appearance by French
>> polishing; but this adds nothing to their durability. A much better
>> plan is to let them soak in linseed oil for a week, and rub them with
>> a cloth for a few minutes every day for a week or two. This produces a
>> beautiful surface, and at the same time exerts a solidifying and
>> preservative action on the wood"
>> 
>> Bob Flexner's book "Understanding wood finishing" says:
>> 
>> "You can put a straight grained piece of wood into a jar containing a
>> half-inch of oil finish and the finish will eventually work its way up
>> through the wood and come out the top. Only if the finish cures hard
>> in the wood, preventing further penetration, or if it hardens in the
>> jar, or if it evaporates will the penetration be stopped."

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Christopher Dunn <
christopherdunn123@g...> wrote:

> day 9: the cats knocked over the jar and made a mess


Ahh, Galoot Science at its best.

In my case it would be dogs, but same idea.


-- 
Kirk Eppler, Another day starting way too early with Telecons

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Christopher Dunn
 wrote:
>
> day 9: the cats knocked over the jar and made a mess


That stain is never coming off the floor, and they tracked it all
over. Cats are jerks!

Chris

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Kirk Eppler  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 8:04 AM, Christopher Dunn
>  wrote:
>>
>> day 9: the cats knocked over the jar and made a mess
>
>
> Ahh, Galoot Science at its best.
>
> In my case it would be dogs, but same idea.
>
>
> --
> Kirk Eppler, Another day starting way too early with Telecons
>

“...I've not noticed any sign of 
fungus in them.”

I use blo on pretty much everything, I live in Ireland where its always damp, no
central heating and the only place that fungal growth has ever been apparent is
on some of my carving tools that I keep in a  drawer in my house - they rarely
see the light of day- the drawer thickness and length is just big enough to fit
the tools in, I have noticed very slight fine whitish fungal film on the
handles, I have wooden planes and heaps of other wooden handled tools in the
same cabinet in larger drawers and cupboards and there is never any sign of
mould. Keep meaning to chuck in a couple of silica sachets in the said drawer -
that should help …right?

Snip

. A much better
 plan is to let them soak in linseed oil for a week, and rub them with
 a cloth for a few minutes every day for a week or two. This produces
a
 beautiful surface, and at the same time exerts a solidifying and
 preservative action on the wood"

 Snip

	 

	I remember reading somewhere that new wooden plane bodies could be
taken to an "ironmongers" and for a fee left immersed in a barrel of
linseed oil reserved for this purpose.  My linking this with the word
ironmonger probably means a UK source but I can't find it at the
moment

	 

	Neil

I love boiled linseed oil. But I only love it for color.
  BLO helps bleed woods' natural color onto itself, and bring it out.
  One or two wiped coats (wipe on, wipe off) is all you get though.
    More is not better.

   I have learned over years and bitter experience, that BLO wants 
something else on top of it to hold that color. Something that was once 
beautifully rich can turn into grungy looking muck if you don't rub off 
all excess, let that dry, and overcoat the oil with shellac, varnish or 
lacquer.

    Oil with no dryer basically never dries. Or rather it takes so long 
to dry that it gives all manner of things time to collect or grow and 
stain the crap out of your work.
   Even BOL with dryer takes so long to dry, that too much of it invites 
the same thing.

   and,

    No, you can't take a crappy piece of wood and make it rosewood by 
soaking it in a barrel of oil, whatever somebodies granny said or some 
newbie woodworker heard and repeated.
   If you want rosewood, just go get some rosewood and make your tool 
out of that instead.

    If you want to stabilize punky wood (spalted) into a slightly more 
durable object? Thin down shellac, varnish or lacquer with the proper 
solvent and spoon or eyedropper it onto the wood.
  4 to one solvent to start, so it soaks in deepest. Couple coats of that.
  Then 3 to one solvent, and so on.
  It will never be as strong as sound wood, but you don't always need 
full strength wood and the colors of spalt can be dynamite.

   No this treatment won't make it rosewood either.
  Once again, if you want rosewood, use rosewood.
        yours Scott



-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8390 - Release Date: 10/14/14

On Oct 15, 2014, at 9:45 AM, scott grandstaff  wrote:

> 
>   No, you can't take a crappy piece of wood and make it rosewood by soaking it
in a barrel of oil, whatever somebodies granny said or some newbie woodworker
heard and repeated.
>  If you want rosewood, just go get some rosewood and make your tool out of
that instead.

Very true, but...   There just ain't no rosewood out there, at least no
Brazilian, which is what we think of when we say rosewood. But, you can
approximate the look of rosewood, at least the color of it, by using red and
blue analine dyes mixed together to make a deep purple. You apply this to a
lesser wood, say walnut, and after it dries you hit it with a wet coat of garnet
shellac. Voila! A decent fake.

But I agree with Scott. Putting lipstick on a pig does not transform that pig
into Marilyn Monroe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh this is cool.
Now I get to piggyback onto what Jim said!

   Jim is absolutely right. His dye technique makes a very good 
approximation of rosewood's appearance. He taught me to use it, and I do 
use it.
  And lots of times you don't really need the strength of rosewood, 
merely the appearance.

      Other times, when the strength of rosewood is critical, you can 
use one of the other lighter colored rosewoods, or nearby rosewood 
relatives, then dye this to look more like Brazilian or at least Indian 
rosewood.
   Bolivian rosewood, bubinga, SE Asian rosewood, etc etc. These can be 
worked and dyed and will serve quite well.

    Honduran rosewood is actually harder and stronger than either 
Brazilian or Indian rosewood by a fairly wide margin.   It just isn't 
quite as pretty.
   Not bad looking at all, just not -quite- as pretty.
   I won't dye or otherwise try to artificially color Honduran rosewood 
though.
Its good enough.
      yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8390 - Release Date: 10/14/14

Oh, just so that I am 100% clear here - when you all refer to BLO, you are
referring to the over-the-counter bottled BLO you buy in the hardware store  ??
or, are you guys actually boiling your own linseed oil  - because we simply like
the old ways :-)     ???

Sorry for the GIT-ish type question..

Cheers
Mal

I'm talking about the over-the-counter stuff.

I understand that there was a heating treatment used in Ye Olde Dayes
for linseed oil, but today's BLO is "boiled" by adding dryers to
flax seed oil so that it will oxidize and harden.  Me, I have too
many other things to do than to boil down flax seed oil.

Mike in Sacto

i am so glad to hear that, Mike :-)

Cheers,
Mal

Sent using Mail on iPad 2

> On 16 Oct 2014, at 19:19, Michael Blair  wrote:
> 
> I'm talking about the over-the-counter stuff.

Boiled Linseed Oil is a popular topic on this list.  Its something we all swear
by and at.

Here are some of my ramblings on the topic.  Worth the coins off a dead mans
eyes.  (tuppence, Paddy)


Way back when,  BAWI - (Before America Was Invented)   using the oil from
Linseed was a good way of getting a finish onto wooden artefacts.  The thing
about LO is that it naturally polymerises.  That's modern speak for 'it dries' -
unlike olive oil, which doesn't.
If you want your refectory table to resist the ingress of nasty stuff that goes
rancid or leaves unsightly stains you give it a coat of something - wax is good,
and comes in handy, self replenishing packages called skips.  Painful to collect
unless you know how to dispossess the original owners.  Linseed oil is better
than wax though, as it doesn't come off as easily, once hard.
Back in the xxth Century there was plenty of time and manpower, so applying lots
of coats and waiting may not have been as costly as it is today.

Roll forward to the Victorian age, and them scientists work out that oxygen
makes oil set faster, so to get the polymerisation started you can blow air
through, and a bit of heat kicks it off nicely - so boil it.  Then use it up
before it goes off
Roll forward a bit more, and we start adding other stuff that makes it dry
faster and harder.  You can stop drinking it at this stage, in fact you'd better
stop drinking it, or using it on food related products like chopping boards and
salad bowls.  Yes, you could eat off oiled salad tongs / bowl for years with no
bad things happening, but, well, we've been making about a thousand 'new'
chemical products a year since the fifties, and stuff like DDT was a good thing,
and thalidomide, and we didn't know that Coca Cola would bring down a whole
generation of kids and reduce them to heaps of overweight diabetics and so on.
So swap to pure walnut oil or food grade linseed oil, and stop drinking the BLO.

If you really want to make your own BLO, then first find some oil, then boil it.
at a high temperature.  for a long long time.

Or wait longer if you use the raw stuff.  

When Scott said that raw LO doesn't dry, he also qualified it and said 'nearly'
because he knows that it will dry, but maybe not in your lifetime, and
especially so if you allow it to capillary its way into the interior of timber,
where there is no oxygen to cause it to polymerise.  That timber will weep for
years to come every time the ambient conditions make it expand/contract  /
spring a leak.  BLO, however, already has the reaction in progress, so will
eventually get there.

The story about dunking a new plane is probably true.  If there are no heavy
planes, because there are no iron planes, how're you to make a good heavy tool?
add weight - fill it with oil.


I love oil finishes.  20 or 30 coats produces the finish that predated french
polish (shellac)  - oil the product a few times over a couple of weeks, deliver
it, and then wipe over with an oily cloth every week for a year, every month for
ever.  Well, these days maybe not.  Maybe take the Scott G shortcut and apply as
many coats as you have time for, then a mix with a harder, oil friendly varnish,
or if you have enough coats, go back to the 17th century and apply wax.  BLO and
wax - a very forgiving finish that can be repaired easily.



Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
in Northumberland, where autumn just arrived. 



More about oils
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zb84fVthd_cC&lpg=PA335&ots=bE4YH3sTZ
M&dq=%22Rape%20seed%20oil%22%20%2B%20polymerise&pg=PA335#v=onepage&q&f=false">ht
tp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zb84fVthd_cC&lpg=PA335&ots=bE4YH3sTZM&dq=%22Rap
e%20seed%20oil%22%20%2B%20polymerise&pg=PA335#v=onepage&q&f=false



  
   


On 16 Oct 2014, at 08:09, Malcolm Thomas wrote:

> Oh, just so that I am 100% clear here - when you all refer to BLO, you are
referring to the over-the-counter bottled BLO you buy in the hardware store  ??
or, are you guys actually boiling your own linseed oil  - because we simply like
the old ways :-)     ???
> 
> Sorry for the GIT-ish type question..
> 
> Cheers
> Mal
>

I've run into a dating problem for a cooper's tool -- the chamfer knife.
Seen as one of the definitive cooper's tools, I  have to determine if it
was in common use before 1846, and I suspect it was not.  In fact, it
makes no appearance among cooper's tools other than British and 
American.

The tool in question can be seen in the first two rows of photos here:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cooper%27s+chamfer+knife&qpvt=coope
r%27s+chamfer+knife&FORM=IGRE#a">http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cooper%27s+
chamfer+knife&qpvt=cooper%27s+chamfer+knife&FORM=IGRE#a

The second photo in the top row (left handed, you'll notice) is, I 
believe,
not a chamfer knife, but a "flincher" in English parlance, a tool found 
in
collections of Italian cooper's tools and also in use by Dutch coopers, 
who
use it to, in fact, chamfer the stave ends on herring barrels.  The 
chamfer
knife is a massive thing, weighing three pounds and more.

While not having the distinctive handling -- one handle at 90 degrees to 
the
blade, and the other handle parallel to the blade -- the mass of the 
tool sold
by Horst auctions (number 88) could be a forerunner of the chamfer 
knife:

http://www.horstauction.com/
tool13octlist

It is used for cutting the chime on barrel staves by British and 
American coopers,
instead of the cooper's adzes used by French, Spanish, and German 
coopers.

Sutter's Fort has three of these in the cooper's shop.  All show the 
D.R. Barton
mark in the post 1870 oval.  If these were not available in 1846, they 
need to
go to the State Museums collections for the appropriate time period.

So far, they don't show up in Timmins (Tools for the Trades and Crafts, 
Kenneth
Roberts edition) or in Smith's Key to Sheffield's Manufacturies. 
(Jiggers or
Jigging Knives show up, but definitely not the same tool at all.)

Mike in Sacto

On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Michael Blair wrote:

> I've run into a dating problem for a cooper's tool -- the chamfer knife.
> Seen as one of the definitive cooper's tools, I  have to determine if it
> was in common use before 1846, and I suspect it was not.  In fact, it
> makes no appearance among cooper's tools other than British and American.
>
> The tool in question can be seen in the first two rows of photos here:
>
> http://www.b
ing.com/images/search?q=cooper%27s+chamfer+
> knife&qpvt=cooper%27s+chamfer+knife&FORM=IGRE#a


Is number 7 on the Boisselier plate from Diderot (1750s) a chamfer knife?
http://artflsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.18:22:
1.encyclopedie0513">http://artflsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.18:22:1.encyclopedie0513

Brian

Kinda yes, Brian.  No.7 *is* meant to be used with the parallel end 
inside
a raised barrel, and this pattern is essentially the same as the Dutch 
tool
used to cut the chime on herring barrels.  I have seen one American 
example,
blacksmith made in the 1850s, as well as a Dutch example, and two that
appear on photographs of Italian cooper's benches.  The Dutch use the 
same
name for this and a cooper's drawknife -- kufferziemesser.

But it is not the "chamfer knife" that I need to date.  The one that 
concerns
me is a very heavy tool.  The L&IJ White 1905 catalog offers this sort 
for
"hogsheads" or "the Cleveland pattern White's Improved Extra Heavy 
Double
Steel for oil, pork, and whisky barrel work."  The weight range on these 
starts
at 6 pounds and ranges up to 12 pounds.

Definitely a different critter.

Mike in Sacto

> Is number 7 on the Boisselier plate from Diderot (1750s) a chamfer
> knife?
> http://artflsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.18:2
2:1.encyclopedie0513">http://artflsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.18:22:1.encyclopedie0513
> [2]
> 
> Brian

Wow, more than I ever needed to know   BUT just what I wanted to know. 
Among my leftovers I found an unopened 5 gallon container of boiled linseed 
oil,  and my project for this week is to make some open shelves under my 
outdoor work bench.   I intend to make them as slats so the water can drain 
through.   will give the LO a try.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Yorkshireman
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2014 7:44 AM

Cc: oldtools porch
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Soaking wood in linseed oil

Boiled Linseed Oil is a popular topic on this list.  Its something we all 
swear by and at.

> day 9: the cats knocked over the jar and made a mess
>

"I [heart] empiricism"
"I [indifferent] cats"


> What am I doing wrong? Should I completely immerse the wood? Or should
> some end grain be exposed to air?

Some rather floppy data-points:

About a year ago I did a month-by-month rotation of all of my wooden
mallets (the heads, anyhow):  cut the top off of a plastic milk jug;
mostly-filled with (borg, has driers) BLO; place a note to idicate the
changeover date; repeat for each mallet.

Hoped for increased resillaince and weight, but didn't formally test.
Mostly did it for the voodoo.  Certainly didn't seem to **hurt**
anything -- and I enjoyed the ritual.  (Had to hang them for a week or
so, to "dry", before putting them away.)


Over the years, have never noticed fungus due to BLO.  **Have**
noticed mildew (does mildrew penetrate?), on some previously-BLO'd
handles, which I simply wiped off.  Didn't seem to damage the
structure of the wooden handle.

Have not noticed mildrew in the last few years -- maybe due to using
my tools more, or storing in racks rather than in toolboxes?  Dunno.


Great thread, BTW.  Saving to HD.  :)


--Travis  (Brisbane, AU)