my son is getting a millers falls 610 for christmas...lets see if we can enlist
another GIT....

Now i am thinking of making a small case for it inspired by the yankee 100
toolset box.  i have some nice paulownia on its way so i think that would be
ideal.

anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these things by hand
?? the finger joints that is...

Cheers,
Mal

Sent using Mail on iPad
2------------------------------------------------------------------------

> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these
> things by hand ?? the finger joints that is...

Erm, the finger joints in such boxes were machined joints from the 
start,
a way to get something of the strength of dovetails without all the hand
work.

A true Neanderthal might do them with saw and chisel, but there is a
Galootish solution.  Charles Holtzappfel shows a treadle operated
table saw in either volume 1 or volume 2 of his five volume work, 
Turning
and Mechanical Manipulation.  There's one that is wooden construction,
and another that is metal (illustrated).  They're pretty much the
table saw we all know (but called a "sawing machine" in the text). They
have a fence, and they have a slot for a miter gauge.  The miter gauge
looks like any miter gauge found on a table saw you can buy today at
any dealership in tailed apprentices.

Mike in Sacto

Sorry chaps, should have mentioned up front, am aware the joints on such a box
were machined.  But don’t have a treadle powered table saw.   Also aware that
DT’s are way to go for general work, more aesthetically pleasing and better
joint around.

But, i do want to replicate the yankee 100 box as much as I can and will have a
go at it with  hand tools.   If that proves impossible or fails for some other
reason then I could resort to my small model making table saw, but I don’t see
much of a challenge in that  :-0)




Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

On 22 Oct 2014, at 7:07 pm, Michael Blair  wrote:

>> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these
>> things by hand ?? the finger joints that is...
> 
> Erm, the finger joints in such boxes were machined joints from the start,
> a way to get something of the strength of dovetails without all the hand
> work.
> 
> A true Neanderthal might do them with saw and chisel, but there is a
> Galootish solution.  Charles Holtzappfel shows a treadle operated
> table saw in either volume 1 or volume 2 of his five volume work, Turning
> and Mechanical Manipulation.  There's one that is wooden construction,
> and another that is metal (illustrated).  They're pretty much the
> table saw we all know (but called a "sawing machine" in the text). They
> have a fence, and they have a slot for a miter gauge.  The miter gauge
> looks like any miter gauge found on a table saw you can buy today at
> any dealership in tailed apprentices.
> 
> Mike in Sacto
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

...or perhaps, the joints i am likely to employ will be more box rather than
finger....we'll see what emerges from the shop after the timber arrives :-)

Cheers,
Mal

Sent using Mail on iPad 2

> On 22 Oct 2014, at 19:30, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
> 
> Sorry chaps, should have mentioned up front, am aware the joints on such a box
were machined.  But don’t have a treadle powered table saw.   Also aware that
DT’s are way to go for general work, more aesthetically pleasing and better
joint around.
> 
> But, i do want to replicate the yankee 100 box as much as I can and will have
a go at it with  hand tools.   If that proves impossible or fails for some other
reason then I could resort to my small model making table saw, but I don’t see
much of a challenge in that  :-0)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Mal
> Oz
> (Perth to be more precise)
> 
> On 22 Oct 2014, at 7:07 pm, Michael Blair  wrote:
> 
>>> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these
>>> things by hand ?? the finger joints that is...
>> 
>> Erm, the finger joints in such boxes were machined joints from the start,
>> a way to get something of the strength of dovetails without all the hand
>> work.
>> 
>> A true Neanderthal might do them with saw and chisel, but there is a
>> Galootish solution.  Charles Holtzappfel shows a treadle operated
>> table saw in either volume 1 or volume 2 of his five volume work, Turning
>> and Mechanical Manipulation.  There's one that is wooden construction,
>> and another that is metal (illustrated).  They're pretty much the
>> table saw we all know (but called a "sawing machine" in the text). They
>> have a fence, and they have a slot for a miter gauge.  The miter gauge
>> looks like any miter gauge found on a table saw you can buy today at
>> any dealership in tailed apprentices.
>> 
>> Mike in Sacto
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> 
>> To change your subscription options:
>> http://ruck
us.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> To read the FAQ:
>> http://swingleydev.com/arch
ive/faq.html
>> 
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>> 
>> OldTools@r...
>> http://ruck
us.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

> But, i do want to replicate the yankee 100 box as much as I can and
> will have a go at it with hand tools.

I understand and share this idea for the box.  I might even get a little
crazier and search out chestnut stock for it (chestnut was the usual 
wood
of choice in these boxes).

My only suggestion would be to fit a stop onto the saw (dovetail saw?)
so that you don't have to think about when the cut is precisely at the
right depth.

There will be pictures of the finished box, right?  Maybe photos of the
process, too?

Mike in Sacto

Mal-

Your query aroused my curiosity about finger/box joints (I've always
thought of finger joints as those joining lengths of wood as putting your
fingers together parallel and a box joints as those joining at 90°).  As
Mike points out, box joints were used as a quick way to make a box with
machines, no surprise there, but that type of joint has existed for much
longer than tailed tools have been around, assuming you believe what is
written on the internet.  Somewhere I found one reference that such joints
were used by the Egyptians.

If I was to set about doing such a joint by hand I would approach it the
same way I would a dovetail, lay out a base line and mark out the "tails
and pins".  A hand cut box joint wouldn't need to be regular as a machine
cut joint typically is; the tails and pins could be random widths, but I'm
guessing you want to replicate the machine look so I'd set off the widths
with a divider to the desire dimension.  Pare/saw out the waste.  I think
I'd still use the first cut board to lay out the second so the fingers fit
any irregularities resulting from the handwork.  Glue them up and trim the
finger tips you intentionally left a tad long.

I started into this thinking cutting a box joint would be easier to do by
hand than dovetails, but now I'm having doubts.  A box joint to replicate a
machine cut one needs a high degree of precision and uniformity, something
machines are pretty good at.  Creating that uniformity may be a greater
challenge than creating the hand cut look of dovetails that so many prize.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts after you've gone down this path.

Phil

How about...

http://www.leeva
lley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=62708&c=

;-)

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Phil Schempf
Sent: 22 October 2014 15:36
To: Malcolm Thomas
Cc: oldtools@r...
Subject: Re: [OldTools] advice on finger joints?

Mal-

Your query aroused my curiosity about finger/box joints (I've always thought of
finger joints as those joining lengths of wood as putting your fingers together
parallel and a box joints as those joining at 90°).  As Mike points out, box
joints were used as a quick way to make a box with machines, no surprise there,
but that type of joint has existed for much longer than tailed tools have been
around, assuming you believe what is written on the internet.  Somewhere I found
one reference that such joints were used by the Egyptians.

If I was to set about doing such a joint by hand I would approach it the same
way I would a dovetail, lay out a base line and mark out the "tails and pins".
A hand cut box joint wouldn't need to be regular as a machine cut joint
typically is; the tails and pins could be random widths, but I'm guessing you
want to replicate the machine look so I'd set off the widths with a divider to
the desire dimension.  Pare/saw out the waste.  I think I'd still use the first
cut board to lay out the second so the fingers fit any irregularities resulting
from the handwork.  Glue them up and trim the finger tips you intentionally left
a tad long.

I started into this thinking cutting a box joint would be easier to do by hand
than dovetails, but now I'm having doubts.  A box joint to replicate a machine
cut one needs a high degree of precision and uniformity, something machines are
pretty good at.  Creating that uniformity may be a greater challenge than
creating the hand cut look of dovetails that so many prize.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts after you've gone down this path.

Phil
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, if they would just add three tiny motors to drive each of the saws while
the gang of saws was clamped, well... It would be very useful. Then I could just
clamp it in place, turn it on, and have instant results.

Oh!.... Wait a minute... There is already a device that does that.

They are really resourceful at Lee Valley, no???

> On Oct 22, 2014, at 7:40 AM, Maddex, Peter  wrote:
> 
> How about...
> 
> http://www.lee
valley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=62708&c=
> 
> ;-

On 10/22/2014 8:40 AM, Maddex, Peter wrote:
> How about...
>
> http://www.lee
valley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=62708&c=
>
> ;-)
Only in Canada, you say?!

Don

>anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these things
by hand ?? the finger joints that is...

I once cut a set of dovetails backwards (I called them quick disconnect
dovetails).  With some glue they still worked.  I figure finger joints by
hand are just zero slope dovetails.  Same techniques just a little extra
glue.

Bob

I thought that was an April Fools' joke at first......

Or is it?

I guess I've seen weirder things.

rock harris
programming god, tyro woodworker, and aficionado of obsolete machinery
314.221.5941

Sent from my BatPhone....

> On Oct 22, 2014, at 09:40, Maddex, Peter  wrote:
> 
> How about...
> 
> http://www.lee
valley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=62708&c=
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Pete
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Phil Schempf
> Sent: 22 October 2014 15:36
> To: Malcolm Thomas
> Cc: oldtools@r...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] advice on finger joints?
> 
> Mal-
> 
> Your query aroused my curiosity about finger/box joints (I've always thought
of finger joints as those joining lengths of wood as putting your fingers
together parallel and a box joints as those joining at 90°).  As Mike points
out, box joints were used as a quick way to make a box with machines, no
surprise there, but that type of joint has existed for much longer than tailed
tools have been around, assuming you believe what is written on the internet.
Somewhere I found one reference that such joints were used by the Egyptians.
> 
> If I was to set about doing such a joint by hand I would approach it the same
way I would a dovetail, lay out a base line and mark out the "tails and pins".
A hand cut box joint wouldn't need to be regular as a machine cut joint
typically is; the tails and pins could be random widths, but I'm guessing you
want to replicate the machine look so I'd set off the widths with a divider to
the desire dimension.  Pare/saw out the waste.  I think I'd still use the first
cut board to lay out the second so the fingers fit any irregularities resulting
from the handwork.  Glue them up and trim the finger tips you intentionally left
a tad long.
> 
> I started into this thinking cutting a box joint would be easier to do by hand
than dovetails, but now I'm having doubts.  A box joint to replicate a machine
cut one needs a high degree of precision and uniformity, something machines are
pretty good at.  Creating that uniformity may be a greater challenge than
creating the hand cut look of dovetails that so many prize.
> I'll be interested to hear your thoughts after you've gone down this path.
> 
> Phil
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool aficionados,
both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, value, location,
availability, collectibility, and restoration of traditional handtools,
especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
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> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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> 
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This all reminds me a story, of which yes, I do have proof.

Way way back, when rocks were soft and the earth hadn't fully formed yet,
  I didn't know any other woodworkers.  I guess it must have been ~1973. 
I was 21 years old.
   Unbeknownst to me, other forces in the world were already moving too. 
Mike Dunbar was messing around in a dirt floor shed with no windows like 
me, trying to get the old tools to work too. The board of regents had 
recently hired Jim Krenov for the college program. I don't think they 
got what they really wanted. Ron Hock was making kitchen cutlery and 
starving. Art Carpenter was opening a woodworking school, because he 
couldn't sell what he made, and he thought maybe tuition from wealthy 
families boarding their children might be a way to go. (not quite a 
reform school, but not too far away from it either) Tommy Davis was 
dreaming of miniature furniture. Paul Hamler had an unknown bug in his 
ear. Maloof was working somewhere.
  George Nakashima always knew exactly what he wanted. Unwavering 
vision. He would never sell cheap. He wasn't selling much of anything, 
but when he could, it was not sold cheap.

   None of us knew each other, at all. But something was afoot!

   Oh, I had a couple friends who were starting to build log cabins. But 
they were just peeling poles with a drawknife and were years away from 
the rudest bench, with a cloth tacked across the front to cover up the 
rude shelves and unsightly legs, that they would eventually call a 
kitchen cabinet.

   I was already a veteran by then. It had been a couple years, after all.
  I thought I had King Soloman's hoard of tools. I had --2-- Stanley 
planes, a Disston 12" backsaw (that came to me for a buck with a chipped 
tote, so I tried my best to reshape that tote into something closer to 
what I has seen on the "expensive" saws in the antique shops).
  I had a Disston D7 rip saw and a crosscut I had saved up and bought 
new mail order from Silvo Hardware. None of the saws were particularly 
sharp, but then I was only just beginning to try and figure out how to 
file them. First couple of tries failed pretty badly, but I would stick 
with it.
  I had a few chisels (with hacked out handles) and squares etc. I had a 
hand crank grinder and a stone. I had already laid open my hand to the 
bone, learning to sharpen edge tools.

  I was in love with my bench hook. Which I used on my bench, which was 
an old table nailed to the wall that I reinforced with extra wood.
   I had read a few old books from the town library.
  I had a few projects under my belt already.

  I lived in a cabin from town with no electricity so there was no 
cheating, not even lights.
  If I worked at night it was by kerosene.

   I decided I needed a real toolbox. I didn't much know what that 
meant. I'd never seen a traditional tool chest or a wall chest, but I 
had seen the little Stanley logo with a man carrying tools in an open 
top tool tote, lots of times.
   I did not like the idea of my best tools hanging off nails on the 
wall. I considered that amateurish and besides not only did I have 
limited wall space, but my "shop" was not exactly airtight.

   I didn't know from dimensions and frankly, the box I eventually built 
can scarcely be carried. Its pretty much way too big for a portable 
toolbox, but pretty small for cabinet tool storage.

   I had some vague knowledge of joints by then. I decided dovetails 
were over my head. But I knew I could do finger, or more like large box 
joints. I laid them out fairly big.
I laid them out partially contrary to where the grain should really have 
been running. But I didn't know that. I just knew it needed to have 
joints with visible contrast.
I expected to see them from across the room.
   Drawers were basically over my head, but I started with and old 
broken drawer from the dump, and put it back together to fit. Then I 
stepped all the way up and built my first real drawers from scratch

  It was the crowning achievement of my life up to that point. I saw so 
proud of it. I didn't understand why people weren't coming in from far 
and wide to see it. Boxes, tables or bedframe or garden gate, all these 
they could see and appreciate.
     Here it was, the great toolbox of my life, and hardly anyone noticed.
But I loved it so.

Here it is over 40 years later. Its not pristine anymore but then, 
neither am I.
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/tooltote
.jpg">http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/tooltote.jp
g
  yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4040/8430 - Release Date: 10/21/14

Malcolm,

I've cut box joints by hand.  I found it to be very tedious, but it can be
done.  If the fingers are very small, it can really be tedious and the
fingers can be fragile so some amount of care is involved.  It really is
the same process as hand cut dovetails.  You mark it out, saw the sides,
then chisel out the waste.  Some people will saw out the majority of the
waste with a coping saw and then simply trim away with the chisel.  That is
my personal preference rather than chopping, but good work can be done
either way.  I assume the fingers will probably be 1/4" or less which means
you'll need a small chisel.  This also means that keeping the chisel square
will be a touch more difficult, but it can be done.

Doc


On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Malcolm Thomas 
wrote:

> Sorry chaps, should have mentioned up front, am aware the joints on such a
> box were machined.  But don’t have a treadle powered table saw.   Also
> aware that DT’s are way to go for general work, more aesthetically pleasing
> and better joint around.
>
> But, i do want to replicate the yankee 100 box as much as I can and will
> have a go at it with  hand tools.   If that proves impossible or fails for
> some other reason then I could resort to my small model making table saw,
> but I don’t see much of a challenge in that  :-0)
>
>
>
>
> Cheers
> Mal
> Oz
> (Perth to be more precise)
>
> On 22 Oct 2014, at 7:07 pm, Michael Blair  wrote:
>
> >> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these
> >> things by hand ?? the finger joints that is...
> >
> > Erm, the finger joints in such boxes were machined joints from the start,
> > a way to get something of the strength of dovetails without all the hand
> > work.
> >
> > A true Neanderthal might do them with saw and chisel, but there is a
> > Galootish solution.  Charles Holtzappfel shows a treadle operated
> > table saw in either volume 1 or volume 2 of his five volume work, Turning
> > and Mechanical Manipulation.  There's one that is wooden construction,
> > and another that is metal (illustrated).  They're pretty much the
> > table saw we all know (but called a "sawing machine" in the text). They
> > have a fence, and they have a slot for a miter gauge.  The miter gauge
> > looks like any miter gauge found on a table saw you can buy today at
> > any dealership in tailed apprentices.
> >
> > Mike in Sacto
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruc
kus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/arc
hive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> >
> > OldTools@r...
> > http://ruc
kus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>



-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484

Doc-

You ever try cutting these by ganging the pieces together.  Seems like it
might be a way to make the work go quicker or to screw up all of your
pieces in one easy step.

Phil

Phil,

Unfortunately, I did not think enough to do that.  Just did them all one at
a time.  Great idea though.  It should make the process move along much
more quickly.  Mal, you might want to think about Phil's idea.

Doc


On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:50 PM, Phil Schempf  wrote:

> Doc-
>
> You ever try cutting these by ganging the pieces together.  Seems like it
> might be a way to make the work go quicker or to screw up all of your
> pieces in one easy step.
>
> Phil
>
>


-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484

You have to get experience in order to have experience.

Ed Minch




On Oct 22, 2014, at 12:37 PM, scott grandstaff  wrote:

> Here it is over 40 years later. Its not pristine anymore but then, neither am
I.
> http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/toolto
te.jpg">http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/shop%20pix/tooltote.
jpg
> yours Scott

Clamp a guide block along the line and it will hold the chisel square for those
past paring cuts.

Ed Minch




On Oct 22, 2014, at 2:54 PM, John Holladay  wrote:

> I assume the fingers will probably be 1/4" or less which means
> you'll need a small chisel.  This also means that keeping the chisel square
> will be a touch more difficult, but it can be done.
> 
> Doc

Ed Minch wrote:
> You have to get experience in order to have experience.

In my experience, you have to have bad judgement to get experience.

cur - who has the scars to prove it

yeah probably no more than 1/4" i'd imagine... i have a 3mm chisel if i need to
go smaller. will have to play around with joint sizes once i work out what size
( how high) the box will be.

whilst this may turn out to be more of a chore than fun per se, am looking
forward to having a go to see what can be done. its not rocket science :-)

Cheers,
Mal

Sent using Mail on iPad 2

> On 23 Oct 2014, at 2:54, John Holladay  wrote:
> 
> Malcolm,
> 
> I've cut box joints by hand.  I found it to be very tedious, but it can be
done.  If the fingers are very small, it can really be tedious and the fingers
can be fragile so some amount of care is involved.  It really is the same
process as hand cut dovetails.  You mark it out, saw the sides, then chisel out
the waste.  Some people will saw out the majority of the waste with a coping saw
and then simply trim away with the chisel.  That is my personal preference
rather than chopping, but good work can be done either way.  I assume the
fingers will probably be 1/4" or less which means you'll need a small chisel.
This also means that keeping the chisel square will be a touch more difficult,
but it can be done.
> 
> Doc
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 6:30 AM, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
>> Sorry chaps, should have mentioned up front, am aware the joints on such a
box were machined.  But don’t have a treadle powered table saw.   Also aware
that DT’s are way to go for general work, more aesthetically pleasing and better
joint around.
>> 
>> But, i do want to replicate the yankee 100 box as much as I can and will have
a go at it with  hand tools.   If that proves impossible or fails for some other
reason then I could resort to my small model making table saw, but I don’t see
much of a challenge in that  :-0)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Mal
>> Oz
>> (Perth to be more precise)
>> 
>> On 22 Oct 2014, at 7:07 pm, Michael Blair  wrote:
>> 
>> >> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these
>> >> things by hand ?? the finger joints that is...
>> >
>> > Erm, the finger joints in such boxes were machined joints from the start,
>> > a way to get something of the strength of dovetails without all the hand
>> > work.
>> >
>> > A true Neanderthal might do them with saw and chisel, but there is a
>> > Galootish solution.  Charles Holtzappfel shows a treadle operated
>> > table saw in either volume 1 or volume 2 of his five volume work, Turning
>> > and Mechanical Manipulation.  There's one that is wooden construction,
>> > and another that is metal (illustrated).  They're pretty much the
>> > table saw we all know (but called a "sawing machine" in the text). They
>> > have a fence, and they have a slot for a miter gauge.  The miter gauge
>> > looks like any miter gauge found on a table saw you can buy today at
>> > any dealership in tailed apprentices.
>> >
>> > Mike in Sacto
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> >
>> > To change your subscription options:
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ckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> >
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chive/faq.html
>> >
>> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>> >
>> > OldTools@r...
>> > http://ru
ckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>> 
>> To change your subscription options:
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us.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>> 
>> To read the FAQ:
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ive/faq.html
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>> OldTools@r...
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us.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> John Holladay
> DocHolladay0820@g...
> 205-229-8484

GGs

I have a theory.

I suspect finger joints used in situations like the corners of Stanley 55
boxes, are a product of the machine age. I say this because I can't see any
benefit of finger joints if you had to cut them by hand. Dovetails would be
easier to cut than a bunch of miniscule finger joints, and stronger.

The advantage of finger joints is that because they are so small, the
spacing's of the joints will always be somewhere around about the height of
the box. Perfect for a machine that has a gang of cutters set up at 1/4" or
whatever.

I have knowledge of a finger joint machine. Where I did my apprenticeship
there was a finger jointing machine in the machine shop. I recall it being
used once during my time there, to make up the components for replica
Ericsonn Type 37 wall phones like this one,
http://www.telephonetalk.com.au/images/ForSale2007MHTML/page2/Wall.html
">http://www.telephonetalk.com.au/images/ForSale2007MHTML/page2/Wall.html

>From what I remember the machine had a bank of 20 or so cutters that were
about 1/4" wide, set 1/4" apart. A large lever was used to operate the
machine, but I can't remember if the lever just engaged a mechanism that set
the thing in motion, or whether the lever actually operated the cutters
directly. There were no guards on the machine, so I gather the cutters
didn't turn at any speed, so perhaps was manually powered using the big
lever. Maybe some sort of ratcheting mechanism that took incremental bites.

I've googled around a bit, but can't find anything that looks like the
machine I remember.

I found this that suggests that finger joints were also called lock corner
joints; http://www.old-woodworking-
tools.com/index/pages/165.htm">http://www.old-woodworking-
tools.com/index/pages/165.htm

And found this also, http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=22
94">http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/detail.aspx?id=2294

Mick Dowling
Melbourne
Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc.

Yes, and I can imagine a machine with ganged blades cutting the who caboodle in
one pass for each side of the joint.

Ed Minch




On Oct 26, 2014, at 7:21 PM, Mick Dowling  wrote:

>  suspect finger joints used in situations like the corners of Stanley 55
> boxes, are a product of the machine age.

> I suspect finger joints used in situations like the corners of Stanley 
> 55
> boxes, are a product of the machine age.

I'm with you, Mick.  There were a number of machine joints by the late 
1800's
that were attempts to get something of the strength of the dovetail but 
could
be made by machines and cheap labor.  My favorite is the scollop and 
pin, often
found on drawers after around  1880.  There were machines to make tenons 
in
quite literally seconds in the first quarter of the 19th Century.  At 
some point,
the single end tenoner as the machine was called, was able to cope as 
well as
cut the tenon at the same time.

Mike in Sacto

…if any one is still interested.. 

someone did ask for photos/comments, so I know at least 1 person is !

so progress to date…   ..still need to complete a little keeper for the 4 bits
that will go with the driver - this will be installed on the left hand side.
Then oiling and then hinges/catches.

ht
tps://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/

there are comments attached to each photo - you need to open them to read it…

my comments are….quite easy of course, but time consuming to make sure the
joints are cut nicely in the soft timber.   Now I know what to expect, I hope
the next one will be better.

I will try cutting the next lot of joints  with a Chisel only and not use the
saw at all.  Should be an interesting experiment but will probably be after
Christmas.

Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

On 21 Oct 2014, at 6:56 pm, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> my son is getting a millers falls 610 for christmas...lets see if we can
enlist another GIT....
> 
> Now i am thinking of making a small case for it inspired by the yankee 100
toolset box.  i have some nice paulownia on its way so i think that would be
ideal.
> 
> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these things by
hand ?? the finger joints that is...
> 
> Cheers,
> Mal
>

Wow!  Came out great - wonderful write-up, as well.  Congrats

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r...
[mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On
Behalf Of Malcolm Thomas
Sent: Saturday, 22 November, 2014 8:39 PM
To: oldtools Tools
Subject: Re: [OldTools] advice on finger (box) joints?

.if any one is still interested.. 

someone did ask for photos/comments, so I know at least 1 person is !

so progress to date.   ..still need to complete a little keeper for the 4
bits that will go with the driver - this will be installed on the left hand
side.  Then oiling and then hinges/catches.

ht
tps://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/

there are comments attached to each photo - you need to open them to read
it.

my comments are..quite easy of course, but time consuming to make sure the
joints are cut nicely in the soft timber.   Now I know what to expect, I
hope the next one will be better.

I will try cutting the next lot of joints  with a Chisel only and not use
the saw at all.  Should be an interesting experiment but will probably be
after Christmas.

Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

On 11/22/2014 7:38 PM, Malcolm Thomas wrote:
> …if any one is still interested..
>
> someone did ask for photos/comments, so I know at least 1 person is !
>
> so progress to date…   ..still need to complete a little keeper for the 4 bits
that will go with the driver - this will be installed on the left hand side.
Then oiling and then hinges/catches.
>
> 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/
>
> there are comments attached to each photo - you need to open them to read it…
>
> my comments are….quite easy of course, but time consuming to make sure the
joints are cut nicely in the soft timber.   Now I know what to expect, I hope
the next one will be better.
>
> I will try cutting the next lot of joints  with a Chisel only and not use the
saw at all.  Should be an interesting experiment but will probably be after
Christmas.
>
Beautifully done, Mal!  (sounds of cheering and hands clapping as the 
crowd roars its approval)

I have but one tiny suggestion:  Find some of those silica gel capsules 
or sacks that come in so many things and put a couple loose in the box.  
I've found that they work wonders against moisture which might tend to 
accumulate in that box over time.  I get my paks mostly from medicines 
but sometimes from other purchased products.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX, USA

Great idea. I already have bags full... I stick them in my drawers of meccano
(don't go there!).

Thanks
Mal

Sent from my iPhone

> On 24 Nov 2014, at 3:12 am, RH Hutchins  wrote:
> 
>> On 11/22/2014 7:38 PM, Malcolm Thomas wrote:
>> …if any one is still interested..
>> 
>> someone did ask for photos/comments, so I know at least 1 person is !
>> 
>> so progress to date…   ..still need to complete a little keeper for the 4
bits that will go with the driver - this will be installed on the left hand
side.  Then oiling and then hinges/catches.
>> 
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/"
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/
>> 
>> there are comments attached to each photo - you need to open them to read it…
>> 
>> my comments are….quite easy of course, but time consuming to make sure the
joints are cut nicely in the soft timber.   Now I know what to expect, I hope
the next one will be better.
>> 
>> I will try cutting the next lot of joints  with a Chisel only and not use the
saw at all.  Should be an interesting experiment but will probably be after
Christmas.
> Beautifully done, Mal!  (sounds of cheering and hands clapping as the crowd
roars its approval)
> 
> I have but one tiny suggestion:  Find some of those silica gel capsules or
sacks that come in so many things and put a couple loose in the box.  I've found
that they work wonders against moisture which might tend to accumulate in that
box over time.  I get my paks mostly from medicines but sometimes from other
purchased products.
> 
> Bob Hutchins
> Temple, TX, USA
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

If anyone is still awake,  here is the final instalment - honest !

ht
tps://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/

#1 son better crack a smile on Thursday, or else !

I must confess I cracked a wee one when the last screw was sent home.



Cheers
Mal
Oz
(Perth to be more precise)

On 23 Nov 2014, at 9:38 am, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:

> …if any one is still interested.. 
> 
> someone did ask for photos/comments, so I know at least 1 person is !
> 
> so progress to date…   ..still need to complete a little keeper for the 4 bits
that will go with the driver - this will be installed on the left hand side.
Then oiling and then hinges/catches.
> 
> 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22432327@N.../sets/72157648963620169/
> 
> there are comments attached to each photo - you need to open them to read it…
> 
> my comments are….quite easy of course, but time consuming to make sure the
joints are cut nicely in the soft timber.   Now I know what to expect, I hope
the next one will be better.
> 
> I will try cutting the next lot of joints  with a Chisel only and not use the
saw at all.  Should be an interesting experiment but will probably be after
Christmas.
> 
> Cheers
> Mal
> Oz
> (Perth to be more precise)
> 
> On 21 Oct 2014, at 6:56 pm, Malcolm Thomas  wrote:
> 
>> my son is getting a millers falls 610 for christmas...lets see if we can
enlist another GIT....
>> 
>> Now i am thinking of making a small case for it inspired by the yankee 100 or
GP toolset boxes.  i have some nice paulownia on its way so i think that would
be ideal.
>> 
>> anyway, any tips/gotchas i need to be aware of when cutting these things by
hand ?? the finger joints that is...
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Mal
>> 
>

Very nice work there Mal.  If your son has any appreciation at all for
craftsmanship,  he certainly should appreciate that.   If he doesn't,  you
can send it to me.   Hee! Hee!

Doc

> If anyone is still awake,  here is the final instalment - honest !

Glad I woke up for this one.  That is a seriously beautiful piece of
work, Mal.  Very well executed!

Mike in Sacto

> 
> Mal, 
I love the flip up bit holder!  Beautiful work, more than befitting that great
tool.

Brent K.------------------------------------------------------------------------