OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

250682 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑09‑29 Low angle Krenov style plane
anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.
250683 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2014‑09‑29 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
> On Sep 29, 2014, at 12:18 , Ron Harper  wrote:
> 
> anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.

No, but I made an infill miter last year for this purpose.
Cost: $40 in materials and a few weekends of work.

Adam
250684 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2014‑09‑29 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Ron Hock put plans and a blade out there a few years back. Not wide like
most, but a starting point.

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Ron Harper  wrote:

> anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.
>
-- 
Kirk Eppler
Principal Engineer
PP&TD
250685 "=?utf-8?B?cGhpbHNjaGVtcGZAZ21haWwuY29t?=" <philschempf@g...> 2014‑09‑29 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
You going to elaborate on that or just keep us in suspense? What did you make
the sole and sides out of?  Pics?  I have a vague recollection that you might
have already shared that here, but it was a long time ago like maybe last week
the way my memory works any more.

Phil

Sent from my HTC

----- Reply message -----
From: "Adam R. Maxwell" 
To: "Ron Harper" 
Cc: "oldtools porch" 
Subject: [OldTools] Low angle Krenov style plane
Date: Mon, Sep 29, 2014 2:23 PM

> On Sep 29, 2014, at 12:18 , Ron Harper  wrote:
> 
> anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.

No, but I made an infill miter last year for this purpose.
Cost: $40 in materials and a few weekends of work.

Adam
250686 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2014‑09‑29 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
> On Sep 29, 2014, at 12:35 , philschempf@g... wrote:
> 
> You going to elaborate on that or just keep us in suspense? What did you make
the sole and sides out of?

It's all mild steel from the hardware store, except for
the NOS tapered iron. I should build another one just for
fun.

> Pics?  I have a vague recollection that you might have already shared that
here, but it was a long time ago like maybe last week the way my memory works
any more.

http://ww
w.swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=243236

After some additional time to work with it, I'll say that
it doesn't have the mass of a dedicated shooting plane,
so it's harder to use for 3/4" stock. On the other hand,
I find it more comfortable than my Bailey planes, for which
I've been too lazy to make the grip that Alf posted on
her blog a couple years ago.

I suppose the Krenov avoids some of the fragility concerns
with the bed that you have in a traditional wooden plane, but
I'm not sold on wooden low-angle planes, whether for shooting
or not. I don't think the lighter weight is an asset, and you
can't get the bed angle as low as on a metal plane. 

Adam
Port Angeles, WA
250687 "Adam R. Maxwell" <amaxwell@m...> 2014‑09‑29 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
> On Sep 29, 2014, at 12:18 , Ron Harper  wrote:
> 
> anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.

May as well make myself highly obnoxious here. When I
switched to all-handtools, I was shooting every board,
and probably would have bought the LN shooting plane if
it had been out at the time.

However, I learned on this here porch that you don't
have to shoot every board. Some stuff won't be visible,
whether it's in the back/inside/top or covered up with
moulding, and there's no point in a precise edge. If
you want to get rid of saw marks but don't need a perfect
reference edge, hit it with a sharp smoothing plane a
few times after assembly.

So, in short, my answer to the perfect shooting board
plane is just to stop shooting everything. Desire for
$400-500 shooting plane is now gone.

Adam
Port Angeles, WA
250688 "Chuck Taylor" <cft98208@g...> 2014‑09‑29 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Ron wrote:

> anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.

A metal low-angle plane usually has a 12-degree bed angle plus a 25-degree
bevel on the iron, for a total cutting angle of 37 degrees. .

A 12-degree bed angle would be impractical in wood. However, if you make
the bed angle 37 degrees and go with a bevel-down iron, then your cutting
angle is also 37 degrees. The cutting angle is what the wood sees; it 
doesn't care about the bed angle.  A 37-degree bed angle would work fine
on a Krenov-style plane. 

Bevel angle on a bevel-down plane doesn't affect the cutting angle, but 
it does affect the clearance angle. Clearance angle is bed angle minus
bevel angle, and needs to be at least 10 degrees. Keep the bevel angle on 
the iron at 27 degrees or less and you should be fine.

Whelan talks about American wooden miter planes as having bed angles of 
30-40 degrees.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle
250705 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2014‑09‑30 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Ron asked:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockPlane_ht
ml_m577a735b.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBloc
kPlane_html_m577a735b.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockPlane_ht
ml_6e20bb98.jpg">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlock
Plane_html_6e20bb98.jpg


Link:  http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockP
lane.html">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuildingaStrikeBlockPlane.
html

Regards from Perth

Derek
250707 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑09‑30 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Here's a wooden, skew mitre plane;

http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/
skew.html

  BugBear

Chuck Taylor wrote:
> Ron wrote:
>
>> anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
>> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.
>
> A metal low-angle plane usually has a 12-degree bed angle plus a 25-degree
> bevel on the iron, for a total cutting angle of 37 degrees. .
>
> A 12-degree bed angle would be impractical in wood. However, if you make
> the bed angle 37 degrees and go with a bevel-down iron, then your cutting
> angle is also 37 degrees. The cutting angle is what the wood sees; it
> doesn't care about the bed angle.  A 37-degree bed angle would work fine
> on a Krenov-style plane.
>
> Bevel angle on a bevel-down plane doesn't affect the cutting angle, but
> it does affect the clearance angle. Clearance angle is bed angle minus
> bevel angle, and needs to be at least 10 degrees. Keep the bevel angle on
> the iron at 27 degrees or less and you should be fine.
>
> Whelan talks about American wooden miter planes as having bed angles of
> 30-40 degrees.
>
> Cheers,
> Chuck Taylor
> north of Seattle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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250709 John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> 2014‑09‑30 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Glad Paul brought up the skew plane.   My favorite shooting plane is
actually a skew block plane (MF 07).  Obviously,  it is only suited for
small items,  but I love the surface left by the skewed please.   I've
thought of building a shooting board with a slope to get a skew effect from
a standard plane.   Does anyone out there use one?   I would think it would
still have some limitations on material size,  but then,  so does any plane
at some point.

Doc
On Sep 30, 2014 9:01 AM, "paul womack"  wrote:

> Here's a wooden, skew mitre plane;
>
> http://www.phillyplanes.co.u
k/skew.html
>
>  BugBear
>
> Chuck Taylor wrote:
>
>> Ron wrote:
>>
>>  anybody made one of these to use on your shooting board? Results?  I Am
>>> having a hard time pulling the trigger on a 400 plane purchase.
>>>
>>
>> A metal low-angle plane usually has a 12-degree bed angle plus a 25-degree
>> bevel on the iron, for a total cutting angle of 37 degrees. .
>>
>> A 12-degree bed angle would be impractical in wood. However, if you make
>> the bed angle 37 degrees and go with a bevel-down iron, then your cutting
>> angle is also 37 degrees. The cutting angle is what the wood sees; it
>> doesn't care about the bed angle.  A 37-degree bed angle would work fine
>> on a Krenov-style plane.
>>
>> Bevel angle on a bevel-down plane doesn't affect the cutting angle, but
>> it does affect the clearance angle. Clearance angle is bed angle minus
>> bevel angle, and needs to be at least 10 degrees. Keep the bevel angle on
>> the iron at 27 degrees or less and you should be fine.
>>
>> Whelan talks about American wooden miter planes as having bed angles of
>> 30-40 degrees.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chuck Taylor
>> north of Seattle
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>>
>> To change your subscription options:
>> http://ruck
us.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>
>> To read the FAQ:
>> http://swingleydev.com/arch
ive/faq.html
>>
>> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>>
>> OldTools@r...
>> http://ruck
us.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
250710 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2014‑09‑30 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
On Sep 30, 2014, at 1:09 PM, John Holladay  wrote:

> Glad Paul brought up the skew plane.   My favorite shooting plane is
> actually a skew block plane (MF 07).  Obviously,  it is only suited for
> small items,  but I love the surface left by the skewed please.   I've
> thought of building a shooting board with a slope to get a skew effect from
> a standard plane.   Does anyone out there use one?   I would think it would
> still have some limitations on material size,  but then,  so does any plane
> at some point.
> 
> Doc
> On Sep 30, 2014 9:01 AM, "paul womack"  wrote:
> 


I have a 70 pound Langdon shooting board with a plane that rides in a track.  It
has two massive 4” wide blades set at a skew.  I am sure there is no component
of this monster that contributes more than the others, but the skewed blades
leave a ridiculously smooth surface and seems to be much easier to use than my
lighter weight chute (shute, shoot) board given the same size shaving.

Ed Minch
250718 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
But ..

A topic that comes up now and then

On 2014-09-30 10:09, John Holladay wrote:
> thought of building a shooting board with a slope to get a skew effect from
> a standard plane.   Does anyone out there use one?   I would think it would

Sloping the ramp does not get the same result as angling the blade to 
the line of motion.

On a sloped ramp, the blade is square to the line of motion so the 
shaving travels straight up the blade.

However, there is one small advantage to a sloped ramp. You use more of 
the blade so the blade stays sharp longer and has less pronounced wear 
in the middle.

Google "What about ramped shooting boards?" for a full explanation.

The previous item on that page is "How does skewing change the cutting 
angle?"

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
250724 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Adam Maxwell tells us that he made himself an infill plane because "I've been
too lazy to make the grip [for a Bailey] that Alf posted on
her blog a couple years ago."

I know we're not supposed to say "You suck" any more. I even agree with that
dictate of courtesy. But there are time when, with the greatest friendship,
respect, and envy, no other comment will do.

Tom Conroy

Gonna make one myself. Some day. Just have to find that round tuit...
250725 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Blake Ashley wrote:
> A slope doesn't actually replicate the effect of a skewed blade, although it
will spread out the wear on the edge.

I would state that (very carefully as)

 > A slope doesn't actually replicate ALL the effectS of a skewed blade,
although it will spread out the wear on the edge.

My own feeling is that one of the major benefits of a skewed blade
is the gradual entry and exit from the cut (when the blade edge is not parallel
to the workpiece edges). This effect is replicated by a sloped shooting ramp.

This has two results; the more obvious of the two is that the force
required to move the plane changes more smoothly; you don't get a BANG
when the cut starts (which could jolt the plane off line, hurt the wrist etc).

But the other result is that as the plane leave the cut, each fibre
on the far edge is supported by the fibre to its side as it is cut;
this has the result of reducing spelching.

  BugBear
250728 Dragon List <dragon01list@g...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
that last being a technical term, known in england, eh?  any american
equivalent?  paddy's gotta be wondering!

bill
felton, ca

On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 2:24 AM, paul womack  wrote:

>
> But the other result is that as the plane leave the cut, each fibre
> on the far edge is supported by the fibre to its side as it is cut;
> this has the result of reducing spelching.
>
250729 Norm Wood <normw013@f...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
On 01 Oct, paul womack wrote:
> Blake Ashley wrote:
> >A slope doesn't actually replicate the effect of a skewed blade, although it
will spread out the wear on the edge.
> 
> I would state that (very carefully as)
> 
> > A slope doesn't actually replicate ALL the effectS of a skewed blade,
although it will spread out the wear on the edge.
> 
> My own feeling is that one of the major benefits of a skewed blade
> is the gradual entry and exit from the cut (when the blade edge is not
parallel
> to the workpiece edges). This effect is replicated by a sloped shooting ramp.

I'm wondering about this.  With a shooting board and a standard
non-skewed plane, isn't the direction of travel of the blade normal to
the blade edge, regardless of whether the shooting board is ramped or
not?  It seems the gradual entry and exit requires the blade edge to be
skew to its direction of travel, as would be the case with a skewed plane
or when using a knife for slicing.

Regards,

Norm
250730 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Norm Wood wrote:
> On 01 Oct, paul womack wrote:
>> Blake Ashley wrote:
>>> A slope doesn't actually replicate the effect of a skewed blade, although it
will spread out the wear on the edge.
>>
>> I would state that (very carefully as)
>>
>>> A slope doesn't actually replicate ALL the effectS of a skewed blade,
although it will spread out the wear on the edge.
>>
>> My own feeling is that one of the major benefits of a skewed blade
>> is the gradual entry and exit from the cut (when the blade edge is not
parallel
>> to the workpiece edges). This effect is replicated by a sloped shooting ramp.
>
> I'm wondering about this.  With a shooting board and a standard
> non-skewed plane, isn't the direction of travel of the blade normal to
> the blade edge, regardless of whether the shooting board is ramped or
> not?

Correct.

> It seems the gradual entry and exit requires the blade edge to be
> skew to its direction of travel.

No - consider the simplest way of achieving this, a skewed (rotated) work
piece on a normal shooting board.

But rotating the plane (and ramp), leaving the workpiece "normal"
also has the effect.

   BugBear
250731 Norm Wood <normw013@f...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Hi Paul, GGs,

On 01 Oct, paul womack wrote:
> Norm Wood wrote:
> 
> >It seems the gradual entry and exit requires the blade edge to be
> >skew to its direction of travel.
> 
> No - consider the simplest way of achieving this, a skewed (rotated) work
> piece on a normal shooting board.
> 
> But rotating the plane (and ramp), leaving the workpiece "normal"
> also has the effect.

Right, and there are a couple of possibly reasonable ways to rotate the
workpiece.  Are you thinking of rotating the workpiece around its long
axis?  I don't think this is equivalent to a ramped shooting board.
Imagine shooting a miter on a picture frame molding.  Rotating the
molding about its long axis will change the orientation of the miter on
the end of the board (think of going from "flat" frame to a "shadow box"
frame), but a ramped shooting board doesn't have this effect.  And I
think that rotating the workpiece about its long axis doesn't affect the
cutting mechanics.  Imagine shooting a miter on the end of a dowel -
rotating the dowel doesn't change how the blade cuts the wood fibers.

Regards,

Norm
250736 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
On Oct 1, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Norm Wood  wrote:

> I'm wondering about this.  With a shooting board and a standard
> non-skewed plane, isn't the direction of travel of the blade normal to
> the blade edge, regardless of whether the shooting board is ramped or
> not?  It seems the gradual entry and exit requires the blade edge to be
> skew to its direction of travel, as would be the case with a skewed plane
> or when using a knife for slicing.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Norm

I struggled with this til I realized that Bugbear is not saying that the ramped
board makes the plane act like a skew, but only that the entry and exit of the
blade are no longer absolutely square to the edge of the board and therefore
less likely to spelch.

The closest analogy I can think of is if your board had about a 5° angled edge
instead of a square edge and you had a non-ramped board, the blade would have
the same relationship tp the wood.  Spelching indeed.

Ed Minch
250737 Norm Wood <normw013@f...> 2014‑10‑01 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
On 01 Oct, Ed Minch wrote:
> 
> 
> I struggled with this til I realized that Bugbear is not saying that
> the ramped board makes the plane act like a skew, but only that the
> entry and exit of the blade are no longer absolutely square to the
> edge of the board and therefore less likely to spelch.
> 
> The closest analogy I can think of is if your board had about a 5°
> angled edge instead of a square edge and you had a non-ramped board,
> the blade would have the same relationship tp the wood.  Spelching
> indeed.

Thanks, Ed.   Bugbear sent me a followup which made it finally click, and then
I realized that was exactly what he described in the original post.  I
also realized I do this, too, when I'm cleaning up endgrain freehand, to
help the plane ease into the cut.  Doh.

Regards,

Norm
250747 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2014‑10‑02 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
Norm

Thinking about it, skewing the plane when dressing end grain does 2 things -
first it allows the plane to enter the cut at the corner and not the full width
- what BugBear is talking about - AND it allow a skew cut.  Best of all possible
worlds.

Ed Minch


On Oct 1, 2014, at 5:50 PM, Norm Wood  wrote:

> On 01 Oct, Ed Minch wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I struggled with this til I realized that Bugbear is not saying that
>> the ramped board makes the plane act like a skew, but only that the
>> entry and exit of the blade are no longer absolutely square to the
>> edge of the board and therefore less likely to spelch.
>> 
>> The closest analogy I can think of is if your board had about a 5°
>> angled edge instead of a square edge and you had a non-ramped board,
>> the blade would have the same relationship tp the wood.  Spelching
>> indeed.
> 
> Thanks, Ed.   Bugbear sent me a followup which made it finally click, and then
> I realized that was exactly what he described in the original post.  I
> also realized I do this, too, when I'm cleaning up endgrain freehand, to
> help the plane ease into the cut.  Doh.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Norm
250748 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2014‑10‑02 Re: Low angle Krenov style plane
I wanted to add a link to Jeff Gorman's classic ramped shooting / shuteing
board, for those newer to the list:
http://www.amgron.clara
.net/rampedboard68.html

Jeff describes the benefits in his always straightforward and helpful way:

"The ramp has the advantage of extending the wear over a greater part of
the cutting iron. Also the start and end of the cut is gradual. Instead of
the whole (working) width of the blade entering and leaving the cut at the
same moment, there a gradual engagement and disengagement. At the start of
the stroke, this slightly reduces the bang and at the end of the stroke it
can reduce breakout (called spelching).
     The effective cutting angle is unchanged. The ramp gives the illusion
of slewing, but is really only making a diagonal cut with the plane
travelling in a straight line along its axis."

Brian
15 years later I'm still meaning to make one of those

Recent Bios FAQ