Scored three nice sheffield made kitchen knives at the local car boot sale this
morning for 5euro, don’t know much about kitchen knives but these just looked
class, like everything in Ireland they came with a story - according to the lady
seller they belonged to her 75 year old butcher grandfather, they were his best
knives and he kept them in that very leather brief case with the rest of his
butchering tools (cheapest plastic handle steak knives) …yawn!
found this on a knife forum - (knife sold for 150 usd.) -
Latham and Owen started in 1921 and became famous for there knives and table
ware. The plant was destroyed in 1940 by the bloody Germans and was immediately
rebuilt after the war, The Sergeant line was started then. Beautiful old growth
rosewood handles and nickel pins.
The third and largest knife I am told by an old tool buddy is an army chefs
knife.
Also scored a couple of carving tools (taylor and marples) and a little norton
crystolon wheel, I used to use these on my tungsten stone carving tools but I
want to put it on a hand cranked grinder for carbon steel, I presume it would be
a better job for carbon steel than the off balance grey stone on my hand
cranked?
Also don’t know how I should go about cleaning them up but I was thinking same
way I would treat an old saw plate, scrape rust off with a disposable scraper
blade, then rub with a fairly fine wet and dry with some lubrication?
 - pics here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tooldrool/sets/721576477164
01968/------------------------------------------------------------------------">
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tooldrool/sets/72157647716401968/-----------------
-------------------------------------------------------

Bolstered French chef's knives, carbon steel?  I don't think it gets
better than this.  Best all around kitchen knife there is in my book.
It's the first knife I reach for for almost everything.  Good story,
too.

Don't get too fussy about cleaning them up.  No use to make a carbon
steel blade look like stainless -- they'll darken with use and so
what?  A terry-cloth rag and some pumice will do all you need. If
you can get some Bar Keeper's Friend even better.

If they're dull, set the edge with a saw file and then hone it with
a steel.  I got my first French chef's knife 40 years ago, and nothing
but a steel has touched the edge since.  I cook a lot, and I've probably
used it three times a week (I have two others) since then.

Good score on three great tools!

Mike in Sacto

Mike in Sacto wrote:

> If they're dull, set the edge with a saw file and then hone it with
> a steel. 

I had never heard of using a file on a knife before. Is this common 
practice? I would have expected knife steel to be too hard to work
with a file.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle

Chuck sez:
I would have expected knife steel to be too hard to work with a file.

   Knife steel is supposed to be barely soft enough to work with a file. 
It was for hundreds of years. They go together like toast n buttah.
   Scythes, razors and plane blades are all too hard. Always were.
Chisels are supposed to "skate" meaning the file can't quite take hold.
   But knifes and axes you are supposed to able to work with a file.

   No way you are working modern Sandvik stainless with a file.
   But classic WR Case chrome vanadium?
Yeah a fine single cut file, if its sharp, should ---just--- cut it.
     yours Scott



-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



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Michael Blair wrote:
> I got my first French chef's knife 40 years ago, and nothing
> but a steel has touched the edge since.  I cook a lot, and I've probably
> used it three times a week (I have two others) since then.

I think this implies that normal knife wear is a process of deformation,
not abrasion, and that the use of a steel reverses the deformation.

Interesting, if it could be proved.

Anyone know anything about the action of a steel
beyond Leonard Lee's photomicrographs?

  BugBear

paul womack wrote:
> Michael Blair wrote:
>> I got my first French chef's knife 40 years ago, and nothing
>> but a steel has touched the edge since.  I cook a lot, and I've probably
>> used it three times a week (I have two others) since then.
>
> I think this implies that normal knife wear is a process of deformation,
> not abrasion, and that the use of a steel reverses the deformation.

I found that (I think) traditional knives are around 53-55 Rc.

For comparison I found this excellent post by Louis Michaud, 1999.

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=63868&submit_thread=1
">http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=63868&submit_thread=1

  BugBear

>> ... and nothing >> but a steel has touched the edge since.  I cook
a lot, and I've probably used it three times a week (I have two others) 
since then.

> I think this implies that normal knife wear is a process of 
> deformation,
> not abrasion, and that the use of a steel reverses the deformation.

It may speak a bit to the process of deformation hypothesis, but 
sharpening steels
also have abrasive properties, so in using one, there is a bit of stock
removal along with correction of deformation.

Mike in Sacto

> It may speak a bit to the process of deformation hypothesis, but 
> sharpening steels
> also have abrasive properties, so in using one, there is a bit of stock
> removal along with correction of deformation.
Sharpening steels come in different cut configurations.
Some are so smooth they hardly cut at all, some are fairly aggressive.
  Finding dirt dull ones at the salvation Army? That is pretty easy, but 
mostly just rob the handles off or maybe make a lineup pin out of it.

  WR Case always made the best, IMO. Sharp fast, you don't have to go 
over your edge 121 times to make a difference.
  Not sure if they still make them, and/or if they are any good under 
current production.
  But find yourself NOS from the 70s or 80s and I believe you will be 
well satisfied.

  Old hardware and sporting goods stores usually have them, and they 
will likely be from an earlier time, still sitting in the box waiting 
for a date.
      yours Scott

> ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, 
> Ca 96039 scottg@s... 
> http://www.snowcrest.net
/kitty/sgrandstaff/
> http://www.snowcres
t.net/kitty/hpages/index.html


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Regarding knife sharpening steels, Scott wrote:
 
>   WR Case always made the best, IMO. Sharp fast, you don't have to go 
> over your edge 121 times to make a difference.

There's a German make called "F. Dick"that makes sharpening steels in levels of
fine-ness.  When you want to "get German", i.e. go into high precision mode, on
a knife, you steel it first with the regular grade steel and then with the fine
steel.
 
I have an antique F. Dick fine steel of a very large size which I use to put on
the finishing touches.
 
John Ruth
Thinking of a long-dead German-American childhood neighbor artist lady who
introduced me to the phrase "To get German on something".
------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Ruth wrote: "There's a German make called "F. Dick"that makes sharpening
steels in levels of fine-ness.  When you want to "get German", i.e. go into high
precision
mode, on a knife, you steel it first with the regular grade steel and 
then with the fine steel."


I believe that some steels are not just fine, but dead smooth and highly
polished. These would work differently from any serrated steel, no matter how
fine: a dead-smooth steel acts as a burnisher, something for the stropping step,
rather than as a hone. But if you consider it, any serrated steel **is** a file,
just a highly specialized one. It should be possible to sharpen a dull one with
citric acid or whatever tipple you prefer.

Tom Conroy


John was thinking of  "Thinking of a long-dead German-American childhood
neighbor artist lady who
introduced me to the phrase "To get German on something"." Is it unfair that
this brings to my mind the phrase "getting medieval on someone"? Or is that just
my Irish-American sloppiness genes coming to the surface? Another friend's
phrase, the comment on a student's lack of precision by a long-dead Irish binder
who was as close to great as you can be without actually being great: "You
wouldn't see it from the back of a running horse."
TC, running.

I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. Anyone have a photo? I love older
steels for their fine teeth.



> On Oct 1, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Thomas Conroy  wrote:
> 
> John Ruth wrote: "There's a German make called "F. Dick"that makes sharpening
steels in levels of fine-ness.  When you want to "get German", i.e. go into high
precision
> mode, on a knife, you steel it first with the regular grade steel and 
> then with the fine steel."
> 
> 
> I believe that some steels are not just fine, but dead smooth and highly
polished. These would work differently from any serrated steel, no matter how
fine: a dead-smooth steel acts as a burnisher, something for the stropping step,
rather than as a hone. But if you consider it, any serrated steel **is** a file,
just a highly specialized one. It should be possible to sharpen a dull one with
citric acid or whatever tipple you prefer.
> 
> Tom Conroy
> 
> 
> John was thinking of  "Thinking of a long-dead German-American childhood
neighbor artist lady who
> introduced me to the phrase "To get German on something"." Is it unfair that
this brings to my mind the phrase "getting medieval on someone"? Or is that just
my Irish-American sloppiness genes coming to the surface? Another friend's
phrase, the comment on a student's lack of precision by a long-dead Irish binder
who was as close to great as you can be without actually being great: "You
wouldn't see it from the back of a running horse."
> TC, running.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
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> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

Scott and other Gentle Galoots:

Earlier I wrote:

> I would have expected knife steel to be too hard to work with a file.

... and Scott replied:
 
> Knife steel is supposed to be barely soft enough to work with a file. 
> It was for hundreds of years. ... Scythes, razors and plane blades 
> are all too hard. Always were.

Thanks for that, Scott. The favorite knife in our kitchen is a Japanese 
Deba knife, purchased 40+ years ago from a stall in a Japanese shopping 
arcade. MLW and I were living in Sasebo, Japan at the time (courtesy of 
the US Navy). I don't remember what we paid for the knife, but it wasn't 
much. 

A Deba knife has a thick spine and a single bevel. For more details and
pictures, see "Deba bocho" in Wikipedia. The bulk of the blade appears to
be wrought iron, with a strip of high-quality carbon steel forge-welded 
to the non-beveled side to form the cutting edge. The back is 
hollowed a bit, away from the edge, similar to the back of a Japanese 
chisel. Our Deba is on its third handle.

Over the years the wide single bevel has gotten a bit rounded from 
sloppy sharpening. Today I took a file to it to and mostly restored
the bevel. Not quite to my satisfaction just yet, but I'm getting 
there.

That Deba knife takes a wicked edge.

Thanks again, Scott, for the nudge. I should have realized anyway that 
the part I needed to file is mostly wrought iron.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA

On Oct 1, 2014, at 7:38 PM, Kermit Perlmutter  wrote:

> I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. Anyone have a photo? I love
older steels for their fine teeth.
> 

I had seen them - http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Honing-10-Inch-
Smooth-Plastic/dp/B000UFV9SC">http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Honing-10-Inch-
Smooth-Plastic/dp/B000UFV9SC -  and wanted one. I had an old knife steel
that my father had given me (he died two years ago @ 93) w/ a bone handle that
had worn rather smooth over the years. I took it to a belt sander, the kind you
use for metal, and sanded it smooth. See -- https://www.flickr.com/phot
os/77280442@N.../sets/72157647851454897/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442
@N.../sets/72157647851454897/

It works great, just like a burnisher for a scraper. I use it to reconstitute an
edge on the kitchen knives. Its like a wire edge that gets folded over and the
steel just sets it upright again. When the steel no longer fixes the edge I give
them 8 - 10 strokes on a ceramic "steel" (i.e., round and about 10 inches long
of unknown grit, but rather fine). If that is not enough, the knife will get 2
or 3 strokes on a diamond "steel" then the ceramic and when the edge glints with
reflected light, back to the smooth steel. Works for me.

Bill

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

The butchers at my old job (when they still had a butcher table) had many
different steels. The ones with the small ridges on them, smith ones. Oval etc.
My current job has a ceramic one in the maintenance shop. I am the only one who
knows how to use the stone and ceramic rod.

Bad Andy 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 1, 2014, at 9:34 PM, William Ghio  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 1, 2014, at 7:38 PM, Kermit Perlmutter  wrote:
>> 
>> I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. Anyone have a photo? I love
older steels for their fine teeth.
> 
> I had seen them - http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Honing-10-Inch-
Smooth-Plastic/dp/B000UFV9SC">http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-Honing-10-Inch-
Smooth-Plastic/dp/B000UFV9SC -  and wanted one. I had an old knife steel
that my father had given me (he died two years ago @ 93) w/ a bone handle that
had worn rather smooth over the years. I took it to a belt sander, the kind you
use for metal, and sanded it smooth. See -- https://www.flickr.com/phot
os/77280442@N.../sets/72157647851454897/">https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442
@N.../sets/72157647851454897/
> 
> It works great, just like a burnisher for a scraper. I use it to reconstitute
an edge on the kitchen knives. Its like a wire edge that gets folded over and
the steel just sets it upright again. When the steel no longer fixes the edge I
give them 8 - 10 strokes on a ceramic "steel" (i.e., round and about 10 inches
long of unknown grit, but rather fine). If that is not enough, the knife will
get 2 or 3 strokes on a diamond "steel" then the ceramic and when the edge
glints with reflected light, back to the smooth steel. Works for me.
> 
> Bill
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
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> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

Kermit & Galoots,

My father worked in butcher shops from age 12 and I grew up around them. 
Somehow my father hid this steel till I was old enough not to use it in 
sword fights. In daily use he used a serrated steel but when he passed the 
smooth F.Dick along to me he commented that it was a good one.

I've put a couple of pictures of the steel here, hope the link works:
http://imgur.com/a/Y7tSa

Poking around the internet it seems to me there may be an old family 
connection in Germany between the "F.Dick" company and "Dick Fine Tools" 
which is now called "Dictum" after recently merging with the "Herdim" 
company (makers of musical instrument tools).

Marv Paisner
Kootenay Lake, BC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kermit Perlmutter" 
, October 01, 2014 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Old kitchen knife gloat


I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. Anyone have a photo? I love 
older steels for their fine teeth.

Kermit Perlmutter wrote: "I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. Anyone
have a photo? I love older steels for their fine teeth."

I don't have any dead-smooth steels, but learned about them from books, a long
time ago. One was that very strange book by a very strange man, John Juranitch's
"The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening." I find, though, on re-reading a few pages
of Juranich that he isn't outspoken that the smooth steels he talks about are
really dead smooth and polished. The clearest statement I have to hand is from a
slightly less strange book by a slightly less strange man: Merle Ellis'
"Cutting-up in the Kitchen: a butcher's guide to saving money on meat and
poultry" Ellis began training for a career as a butcher at 13, then somehow
sidestepped into television as a producer for NBC and with his own production
company. Somehow he ended up back in a butcher's shop, his own, in Tiburon up in
Marin, at the end of a ferry line from San Francisco. In 1975, "Now, in a time
of high-flying meat prices, he has undertaken a consumer-oriented syndicated
newspaper column and this timely
 book."  Timely? Just as the yuppieocracy was switching to mung beans, tofu, and
quiche as tenets of faith? I like red meat, myself, though I can't often afford
it; I hope the Sprout-Eaters didn't martyr him with his own cleavers. Maybe
Ellis' sense of timing is why he didn't stay in TV production.


OK, seriously, this is a good and knowledgeable book, written for the layman. I
wish I had more need for it. On steels, Ellis says: "There are several different
types of steel and almost certainly the one you have, the one that came with the
carving set, is the wrong type. Most 'home-type' steels are much too rough and
give the knife a saw-toothed edge.
    "The steel that hangs off a hook on the belt of a guy who makes his living
boning necks in a packing house is as smooth as a mirror and the knife he uses
is as sharp as a razor.
    "Between the rough steel that came with the carving set and the mirror
smooth finish of a packing house steel, there is just the right steel for your
purpose. It has a medium surface, not smooth but nearer to that than coarse. It
is 10 or 12 inches in length and may be either round, flat or oval in shape....
    [long clip]...."For my money there is but one steel: F. DICK. Ask any
butcher you know who made his steel."

Tom Conroy
Berkeley

< SNIP>

Kermit Perlmutter wrote: "I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. 
Anyone have a photo? I love older steels for their fine teeth."

For my money there is but one steel: F. DICK. Ask any butcher you know who 
made his steel."

Tom Conroy
Berkeley

I don't post often, I read a lot, but  for this I just have to chime in.

I have two steels that do the majority of my Knife edge maintenance, along 
with one tool that will no doubt make some shudder, an ACCU-SHARP.
I do have a TON of other sharpening tools wet grinders, stones (Both oil and 
water), ceramics (Rods and stones.), Norton tri hone, Lansky's, leather 
strops, flat steel an granite plates, etc.

All do great work, but these days it's mostly the FINE-CUT F. Dick 12' long 
flattened oval steel, if I've gotten lax , some passes down the REGULAR CUT 
steel first will usually restore my edge.
But if I've been very lazy and don't pay sufficient attention when steeling 
my edge and let my edge bevels erode away I restore a bevel on my knife with 
the ACCU-sharp before going to the two steels.

Yes the ACCU-Sharp is a rough tool and I try to avoid it, but if my bevel is 
gone I no longer spend a lot of time restoring it, I rough it in and then 
smooth things up with my steels.

The knives cut fine afterward. And at least for a while after that treatment 
I pay more attention to my steeling on my knives.

Recently we've explored shoot boards and planes, and a little earlier, 
there was a discussion of slitting gauges.  While I don't get all 
mystical about Japanese tools, I stumbled across this video today that 
shows a Japanese cabinet maker at work, and both threads are covered in 
the video.  It starts (after the Lowe's commercial) with this fellow 
cutting a board to width using the Japanese cutting gauge.  So quick! 
Not much later, he's shooting the ends of the boards, holding the plane 
at an angle to make a shearing cut.

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=G_sGwQ3bMv8

Mike in Sacto

Very enjoyable to watch these guys very calmly do what they need to do with no
extra movements.

The slitting gauge works because the wood is thin and he has selected the
perfect boards - I wonder what type of wood it is and how much of the thickness
had been cut?

Neat to see him use the chute board as a square for marking, although I didn’t
see him measure the length he cut - good guesser?

And I was surprised to see him use sandpaper.

Ed Minch


On Oct 4, 2014, at 9:14 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

> Recently we've explored shoot boards and planes, and a little earlier, there
was a discussion of slitting gauges.  While I don't get all mystical about
Japanese tools, I stumbled across this video today that shows a Japanese cabinet
maker at work, and both threads are covered in the video.  It starts (after the
Lowe's commercial) with this fellow cutting a board to width using the Japanese
cutting gauge.  So quick! Not much later, he's shooting the ends of the boards,
holding the plane at an angle to make a shearing cut.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=G_sGwQ3bMv8
> 
> Mike in Sacto

GGs;

The F. Dick site differentiates this way: coarse steels for the
household, medium for chefs, and fine for butchers. Makes some kind of
sense....

http://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/sharpening-
steels">http://www.dick.de/en/tools-for-chefs-and-butchers/sharpening-steels

-- 
  Steve in Kokomo

On Sat, Oct 4, 2014, at 07:02 AM, Thomas Conroy wrote:
>  Kermit Perlmutter wrote: "I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel.
>  Anyone have a photo? I love older steels for their fine teeth."
> 
> I don't have any dead-smooth steels, but learned about them from books, a
> long time ago. One was that very strange book by a very strange man, John
> Juranitch's "The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening." I find, though, on
> re-reading a few pages of Juranich that he isn't outspoken that the
> smooth steels he talks about are really dead smooth and polished. The
> clearest statement I have to hand is from a slightly less strange book by
> a slightly less strange man: Merle Ellis' "Cutting-up in the Kitchen: a
> butcher's guide to saving money on meat and poultry" Ellis began training
> for a career as a butcher at 13, then somehow sidestepped into television
> as a producer for NBC and with his own production company. Somehow he
> ended up back in a butcher's shop, his own, in Tiburon up in Marin, at
> the end of a ferry line from San Francisco. In 1975, "Now, in a time of
> high-flying meat prices, he has undertaken a consumer-oriented syndicated
> newspaper column and this timely
>  book."  Timely? Just as the yuppieocracy was switching to mung beans,
>  tofu, and quiche as tenets of faith? I like red meat, myself, though I
>  can't often afford it; I hope the Sprout-Eaters didn't martyr him with
>  his own cleavers. Maybe Ellis' sense of timing is why he didn't stay in
>  TV production.
> 
> 
> OK, seriously, this is a good and knowledgeable book, written for the
> layman. I wish I had more need for it. On steels, Ellis says: "There are
> several different types of steel and almost certainly the one you have,
> the one that came with the carving set, is the wrong type. Most
> 'home-type' steels are much too rough and give the knife a saw-toothed
> edge.
>     "The steel that hangs off a hook on the belt of a guy who makes his
>     living boning necks in a packing house is as smooth as a mirror and
>     the knife he uses is as sharp as a razor.
>     "Between the rough steel that came with the carving set and the
>     mirror smooth finish of a packing house steel, there is just the
>     right steel for your purpose. It has a medium surface, not smooth but
>     nearer to that than coarse. It is 10 or 12 inches in length and may
>     be either round, flat or oval in shape....
>     [long clip]...."For my money there is but one steel: F. DICK. Ask any
>     butcher you know who made his steel."
> 
> Tom Conroy
> Berkeley
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

Thanks for this Mike
I don't get time for too much interaction on the list nowadays, but today I'm
housesitting, so I watched it.  Apart from the awe of watching a craftsman at
work, in that unhurried, careful, accurate way that seems the same the world
over, I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the
pull.
If your body is the stop for the workpiece - via the shooting board, or even
without it, then of course your plane must cut on the pull stroke.  One foot for
the slab that's working as the bench, one hand for the workpiece, and one for
hte saw, or plane.

Now it all makes complete sense!


Now if only I could sit like that all day (and stand up at 6 o clock.)


Richard Wilson
a galoot in Northumberland
where our skiff has reashed the fitting out stage..




On 4 Oct 2014, at 14:14, Michael Blair wrote:

> Recently we've explored shoot boards and planes, and a little earlier, there
was a discussion of slitting gauges.  While I don't get all mystical about
Japanese tools, I stumbled across this video today that shows a Japanese cabinet
maker at work, and both threads are covered in the video.  It starts (after the
Lowe's commercial) with this fellow cutting a board to width using the Japanese
cutting gauge.  So quick! Not much later, he's shooting the ends of the boards,
holding the plane at an angle to make a shearing cut.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=G_sGwQ3bMv8
> 
> Mike in Sacto

On Oct 4, 2014, at 5:45 AM, Ray Sheley Jr.  wrote:

> Kermit Perlmutter wrote: "I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel. Anyone
have a photo? I love older steels for their fine teeth.”

You won’t be able to say that any longer. This steel does not have a maker’s
mark, only the "CAST STEEL" mark.

I found this steel many years ago. It had a damaged handle, so I made an exact
replacement from desert ironwood, using the original decorative ferrule. You
will notice that it is dead smooth, but the flats on the hexagon are not flat.
Rather they are dished, leaving the edges proud. It works quite well.

https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/KnifeSteelSmooth?aut
huser=0&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/Knif
eSteelSmooth?authuser=0&feat=directlink

-----Original Message----- 
From: JAMES THOMPSON

You won’t be able to say that any longer. This steel does not have a maker’s 
mark, only the "CAST STEEL" mark.

I found this steel many years ago. It had a damaged handle, so I made an 
exact replacement from desert ironwood, using the original decorative 
ferrule. You will notice that it is dead smooth, but the flats on the 
hexagon are not flat. Rather they are dished, leaving the edges proud. It 
works quite well.

https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/KnifeSteelSmooth?aut
huser=0&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/Knif
eSteelSmooth?authuser=0&feat=directlink


That's interesting. Are all of the surfaces dished? or are some flat and 
some dished? Can't really tell from the photo, but from your text I'm 
assuming all.

It works quite well.
  https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/KnifeSteelSmooth?a
uthuser=0&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/Kn
ifeSteelSmooth?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Thats a lovely handle!
  And how come we can't get sacks of embossed sterling ferrules,..... 
cheap?? :)


   The steel is interesting. It must have worked more like the single 
tooth scrapers they make Japanese swords with.
  Or a 4 sided reamer, like a birdcage awl.
    yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8321 - Release Date: 10/03/14

There are no flats, only 6 dished surfaces. All the work happens on the ridges
(edges).


On Oct 4, 2014, at 8:55 AM, Ray Sheley Jr.  wrote:

> 
> That's interesting. Are all of the surfaces dished? or are some flat and some
dished? Can't really tell from the photo, but from your text I'm assuming all.

Thinking about steels

On 2014-10-04 08:57, scott grandstaff wrote:
[Quoting James Thompson]
> It works quite well.
>   https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/KnifeSteelSmooth
?authuser=0&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/
KnifeSteelSmooth?authuser=0&feat=directlink
>
>    The steel is interesting. It must have worked more like the single
> tooth scrapers they make Japanese swords with.
>   Or a 4 sided reamer, like a birdcage awl.

The smaller the radius of the corner, the greater the force per square 
inch on the knife bevel. The greater the force the more damage you do to 
the knife.

A smooth steel would have the largest radius, various types of ribbed 
steels much smaller radius except that often two ribs would be in 
contact with the bevel.

This steel has the radius of a very thin wire.

The knife sharpening gadgets Dick sells - you push the knife down 
between two spring wires (perhaps with some abrasive coating) - the 
depth determining the angle and presumably being different every time 
you use it - has small radius hones but larger than the radius of the 
corners of Jim's steel.

However, all these radii are much larger than the abrasive particles on 
conventional abrasives. The effect on the steel is as if you use a 
single large abrasive particle that has a cylinder shape in the 
direction of motion.

Very fine abrasives, in the micron range (a few orders of magnitude 
smaller than any of these steels, even those with small radii like 
Jim's), are able to remove metal with almost no damage to the crystal 
structure of the steel.

A sheet abrasive, where many thousands of abrasive particles would be in 
contact with the bevel at any time, has several orders of magnitude less 
force per particle.

Forming a bevel by pushing the metal around - using a knife steel - 
affects the crystal structure about the same as stretching the metal to 
20 times its heat treated length. It can be work hardened but its 
durability is compromised.

All that is before you even get to the freehand sharpening question.

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

On 10/4/2014 10:34 AM, Brent Beach wrote:
> Forming a bevel by pushing the metal around - using a knife steel - 
> affects the crystal structure about the same as stretching the metal 
> to 20 times its heat treated length. It can be work hardened but its 
> durability is compromised.
>
> All that is before you even get to the freehand sharpening question.
>
> Brent 

I was never able to get a consistently satisfactory edge with a honing 
steel. Then I found this - and stopped trying!

http://
www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=32456&cat=1,43072

I don't bother adjusting the angle anymore. All knives get sharpened 
with the same setting. The angle varies from one knife to another, but 
each one gets consistent treatment.

FWIW
Don

For keeping my kitchen knives in sharp order, I use something that was 
in
my grandmother's knife drawer.  It looks like this:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=old+kitchen+knife+sharpener&FORM=HD
RSC2#view=detail&id=72158B04E40738C0EA775D6B317B69B39990F879&selectedIndex=3">ht
tp://www.bing.com/images/search?q=old+kitchen+knife+sharpener&FORM=HDRSC2#view=d
etail&id=72158B04E40738C0EA775D6B317B69B39990F879&selectedIndex=3

I've heard people damn this devise, but a few swipes with it and my
kitchen knives just float through tomatoes like nobody's business.  No 
muss
no fuss.  A person can get all Rumpelstiltskin about sharpening knives,
but this has done the job on my knives (one for the past 40 years).

Mike in Sacto

Richard wrote:

> I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the 
> pull.

Yep, that's the reason.  Most of the work is done while sitting cross 
legged on
the ground.

> Apart from the awe of watching a craftsman at work, in that unhurried, 
> careful, accurate way
> that seems the same the world over...

This one of the great appeals for me in this video, as well in some 
others that
show older workers at their tasks.  There's a rhythm of working that is 
unhurried
and practiced, each movement a part of what is almost a well 
choreographed dance.
No wasted movement.

Mike in Sacto

On 2014-10-04 22:58, Don Schwartz wrote:
> On 10/4/2014 10:34 AM, Brent Beach wrote:
>> All that is before you even get to the freehand sharpening question.
> I was never able to get a consistently satisfactory edge with a honing
> steel. Then I found this - and stopped trying!
>
> http:
//www.leevalley.com/en/Wood/page.aspx?p=32456&cat=1,43072
>
> I don't bother adjusting the angle anymore. All knives get sharpened
> with the same setting. The angle varies from one knife to another, but
> each one gets consistent treatment.

Knife angles are a complicated topic because knives have so many uses. 
However, for kitchen knives you only need one angle almost all the time. 
Picking one angle in the range of good angles is a good result.

Using a good abrasive with a jig will always get you a better result.

This jig has one slight disadvantage - you have to slide the knife along 
the abrasive rather than across the abrasive.

Aside from that, it fits in the knife drawer, takes up almost no room, 
works the same every time.

An excellent choice, metallographically speaking.

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

Thanks for all the replies. I may have to try a smooth steel on my knives and
see if it makes a difference for me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh that is a beaut.

> On Oct 4, 2014, at 8:46 AM, JAMES THOMPSON  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2014, at 5:45 AM, Ray Sheley Jr.  wrote:
>> 
>> Kermit Perlmutter wrote: "I have never seen a truly smooth knife steel.
Anyone have a photo? I love older steels for their fine teeth.”
> 
> You won’t be able to say that any longer. This steel does not have a maker’s
mark, only the "CAST STEEL" mark.
> 
> I found this steel many years ago. It had a damaged handle, so I made an exact
replacement from desert ironwood, using the original decorative ferrule. You
will notice that it is dead smooth, but the flats on the hexagon are not flat.
Rather they are dished, leaving the edges proud. It works quite well.
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/KnifeSteelSmooth?a
uthuser=0&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/Kn
ifeSteelSmooth?authuser=0&feat=directlink
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

On 10/5/2014 10:35 AM, Brent Beach wrote:
> This jig has one slight disadvantage - you have to slide the knife 
> along the abrasive rather than across the abrasive.
>
> Aside from that, it fits in the knife drawer, takes up almost no room, 
> works the same every time.
>
> An excellent choice, metallographically speaking.
>
> Brent 

As most of our kitchen knives have a curved edge, I swing the handle 
outward as I draw the knife toward me, resulting in a curve more or less 
along the diagonal of the stone. It's a very natural motion, with 
rotation at the wrist, elbow and shoulder!

Don

I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the 
pull.
> Yep, that's the reason.  Most of the work is done while sitting cross 
> legged on
> the ground.

   Don't you just love Japanese woodworking?
     (He sez with tongue in cheek)

  Well, we can't figure out the screw. Its been a couple thousand years 
now, and we just ain't gettin' it.  Got a problem with wedges too.
  And a holdfast? Are you kidding? Way too complex.
  So, we squat on the ground and hold the work with our toes.
     Because we are so cool.

  Our native metal is so poor we have to work 100 times harder for 
stubby little blades that you can't push, because they won't hold up to 
that.
And then keep futzing with it forever.
   Because we are so cool.

  And we are going to make the same boxy, flat, plain-as-a-mud-fence work,
  over and over like robots, unchanged for a thousand years.
    Because we are so cool.

   (Tommy Chippendale eating his heart out the whole time, oh yeah 
sure........heehehehehe)


   I think the best I ever saw was a lanky white guy from Long Beach or 
somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby 
little pony tail,
   In an air conditioned shop with electric lights blazing.....
Giant lodgepole up his butt and zero sense of humor.
       Taking 150 times too long with everything
               Because he was just soooooo cool

   yours Scott

> *******************************
Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... 
http://www.snowcrest.net/k
itty/sgrandstaff/
http://www.snowcrest.
net/kitty/hpages/index.html


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8326 - Release Date: 10/04/14

https://plus.google.com/1
02358420595488787966/posts/MhDkxwDKkQR?banner=pwa&pid=6066816281055315266&oid=10
2358420595488787966

Picasa has been "improved" yet again, and I cannot find the commands that used
to be there, so I hope this works.

Several years ago, somebody, maybe Scott, sent me some rural blacksmith-made
carving tools that were found in a village in China. They are obviously hand
forged, and not by an expert. I sharpened them, made handles for them that I
thought were kinda complimentary, and tried to learn to use them. They are very
sharp, and very hard. The problem is that I understand that they carve while
holding the work with their feet, and I can't do that. The length and shapes
kinda verifies that. One is bent at the end and sharpened like a small pull
knife. I cannot learn to use that one at all.

The tools are considerably longer than western carving tools, and most are bent
near the end. The 2 gouges are shallow, and they are skewed, making them very
difficult for me to use. I owned a set of 4 American made skewed gouges, but I
sold them because I just couldn't get it together with them. Never found a
skewed gouge useful.

In contrast, I have a number of Japanese carving tools, and they are all quite
short, and do not have sockets. I can't get it together with the japanese
carving tools either.


On Oct 5, 2014, at 11:06 AM, scott grandstaff  wrote:

> I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the pull.
>> Yep, that's the reason.  Most of the work is done while sitting cross legged
on
>> the ground.
> 
> Don't you just love Japanese woodworking?
>   (He sez with tongue in cheek)
> 
> Well, we can't figure out the screw. Its been a couple thousand years now, and
we just ain't gettin' it.  Got a problem with wedges too.
> And a holdfast? Are you kidding? Way too complex.
> So, we squat on the ground and hold the work with our toes.
>   Because we are so cool.
> 
> Our native metal is so poor we have to work 100 times harder for stubby little
blades that you can't push, because they won't hold up to that.
> And then keep futzing with it forever.
> Because we are so cool.
> 
> And we are going to make the same boxy, flat, plain-as-a-mud-fence work,
> over and over like robots, unchanged for a thousand years.
>  Because we are so cool.
> 
> (Tommy Chippendale eating his heart out the whole time, oh yeah
sure........heehehehehe)
> 
> 
> I think the best I ever saw was a lanky white guy from Long Beach or somesuch,
wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby little pony tail,
> In an air conditioned shop with electric lights blazing.....
> Giant lodgepole up his butt and zero sense of humor.
>     Taking 150 times too long with everything
>             Because he was just soooooo cool
> 
> yours Scott
> 
>> *******************************
> Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.
snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/">http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcres
t.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8326 - Release Date: 10/04/14
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

I'm not sure if this is an attempt at humor or blatant racism...

DGW

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of scott grandstaff
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 2:07 PM
To: porch
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Japanese

I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the pull.
> Yep, that's the reason.  Most of the work is done while sitting cross 
> legged on the ground.

   Don't you just love Japanese woodworking?
     (He sez with tongue in cheek)

  Well, we can't figure out the screw. Its been a couple thousand years now, and
we just ain't gettin' it.  Got a problem with wedges too.
  And a holdfast? Are you kidding? Way too complex.
  So, we squat on the ground and hold the work with our toes.
     Because we are so cool.

  Our native metal is so poor we have to work 100 times harder for stubby little
blades that you can't push, because they won't hold up to that.
And then keep futzing with it forever.
   Because we are so cool.

  And we are going to make the same boxy, flat, plain-as-a-mud-fence work,
  over and over like robots, unchanged for a thousand years.
    Because we are so cool.

   (Tommy Chippendale eating his heart out the whole time, oh yeah
sure........heehehehehe)


   I think the best I ever saw was a lanky white guy from Long Beach or 
somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby 
little pony tail,
   In an air conditioned shop with electric lights blazing.....
Giant lodgepole up his butt and zero sense of humor.
       Taking 150 times too long with everything
               Because he was just soooooo cool

   yours Scott

> *******************************
Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... 
http://www.snowcrest.net/k
itty/sgrandstaff/
http://www.snowcrest.
net/kitty/hpages/index.html


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8326 - Release Date: 10/04/14

You are not sure????  Hee hee!

On Oct 5, 2014, at 2:41 PM, David G. Wittner  wrote:

> I'm not sure if this is an attempt at humor or blatant racism...
> 
> DGW
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of scott grandstaff
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 2:07 PM
> To: porch
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Japanese
> 
> I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the pull.
>> Yep, that's the reason.  Most of the work is done while sitting cross 
>> legged on the ground.
> 
>  Don't you just love Japanese woodworking?
>    (He sez with tongue in cheek)
> 
> Well, we can't figure out the screw. Its been a couple thousand years now, and
we just ain't gettin' it.  Got a problem with wedges too.
> And a holdfast? Are you kidding? Way too complex.
> So, we squat on the ground and hold the work with our toes.
>    Because we are so cool.
> 
> Our native metal is so poor we have to work 100 times harder for stubby little
blades that you can't push, because they won't hold up to that.
> And then keep futzing with it forever.
>  Because we are so cool.
> 
> And we are going to make the same boxy, flat, plain-as-a-mud-fence work,
> over and over like robots, unchanged for a thousand years.
>   Because we are so cool.
> 
>  (Tommy Chippendale eating his heart out the whole time, oh yeah
> sure........heehehehehe)
> 
> 
>  I think the best I ever saw was a lanky white guy from Long Beach or 
> somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby 
> little pony tail,
>  In an air conditioned shop with electric lights blazing.....
> Giant lodgepole up his butt and zero sense of humor.
>      Taking 150 times too long with everything
>              Because he was just soooooo cool
> 
>  yours Scott
> 
>> *******************************
> Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... 
> http://www.snowcrest.net
/kitty/sgrandstaff/
> http://www.snowcres
t.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
> 
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4037/8326 - Release Date: 10/04/14
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

If you haven't read enough of Scott by now, there's no hope..

I agree with Jim.........  hee hee heeeeeeeeee

Mike

On 10/5/2014 4:41 PM, David G. Wittner wrote:
> I'm not sure if this is an attempt at humor or blatant racism...
>
> DGW
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of scott grandstaff
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2014 2:07 PM
> To: porch
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] Japanese
>
> I finally worked out why japanese tools both saws and planes cut on the pull.
>> Yep, that's the reason.  Most of the work is done while sitting cross
>> legged on the ground.
>
>     Don't you just love Japanese woodworking?
>       (He sez with tongue in cheek)
>

> The problem is that I understand that they carve while holding the 
work with their feet, and I can't do that.

Chinese do use their feet often, but don't confuse Chinese traditions of 
woodwork with Japanese.  Shoot, most of the world uses feet -- useful 
appendages.

 > One is bent at the end and sharpened like a small pull knife. I 
cannot learn to use that one at all.

That one looks an awful lot like a stock maker's scraper for inletting 
barrels into the stock.  'Spect it's a scraper rather than a chisel.

 > The tools are considerably longer than western carving tools, and 
most are bent near the end.

Consider what the Chinese are carving.  There are intricate carvings of 
people, trees, buildings and streets on the two '40s vintage chests I 
have, and a long reach was required for some of the work.

 > In contrast, I have a number of Japanese carving tools, and they are 
all quite short, and do not have sockets. I can't get it together with 
the japanese carving tools either.

Again, don't confuse Japanese woodworking traditions with any other in 
the world, and especially not the Chinese or Viet-Namese.  On the other 
hand, I was given a very nice set of Japanese carving chisels, a gift 
from a man whose brother is a "Living National Treasure" maker of Noh 
masks.  They've worked fine for me.

Mike in Sacto

Scott, in scorched earth mode, goes a little too far

On 2014-10-05 11:06, scott grandstaff wrote:
> somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby
> little pony tail,

Don't all galoots have stubby little pony tails?

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

Yeah, but if the shoe fits...

On Oct 5, 2014, at 4:30 PM, Brent Beach  wrote:

> Scott, in scorched earth mode, goes a little too far
> 
> On 2014-10-05 11:06, scott grandstaff wrote:
>> somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby
>> little pony tail,
> 
> Don't all galoots have stubby little pony tails?
> 
> Brent
> -- 
> Brent Beach
> Victoria, BC, Canada
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

On Sunday, October 5, 2014, Brent Beach  wrote:

> Scott, in scorched earth mode, goes a little too far
>
> On 2014-10-05 11:06, scott grandstaff wrote:
>
>> somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby
>> little pony tail,
>>
>
> Don't all galoots have stubby little pony tails?
>
>
Ah no.

There are at least two of us here in the Bay Area who do not.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, C A.


-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors.
Kirk

Ah darn

On 2014-10-05 17:42, Kirk Eppler wrote:
> On Sunday, October 5, 2014, Brent Beach  <mailto:brent.beach@g...>> wrote:
>
>     Scott, in scorched earth mode, goes a little too far
>
>     On 2014-10-05 11:06, scott grandstaff wrote:
>
>         somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby
>         little pony tail,
>
>
>     Don't all galoots have stubby little pony tails?
>
>
> Ah no.
>
> There are at least two of us here in the Bay Area who do not.
>
> Kirk in Half Moon Bay, C A.

there go all my preconceptions about the Bay Area! Do galoots there go 
with because everyone else there has a stubby little pony tail?

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

in case anyone missed it
    Its the "so cool" part, that never fails to crack me up.

   I am pretty cordial with most of the people I consider to be the best 
toolmakers on the planet right now. The most creative designs, the best 
workmanship. The hottest art tools of this period in history.  Lots of 
fields, lots of toolmakers. Some make a few, some eventually make 
hundreds. I got to meet a lot of the toolmakers in the generation just 
before me.
  Toolmakers. Its a rare breed.
   I have been there to welcome any number of toolmakers just coming 
out. I know talent when I see it. I find the young guys with heart and 
help them come inside, if I can.   Every year I meet a few.

     And there ain't a one of us that's cool!
     Hell, we're barely washed up enough to come inside at all!
Top toolmakers of the world, lucky if we ain't slopping hogs.  Some 
still do.
     Never was cool.
        yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



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Oh yeah, those funny looking Chinese carving tools?
   Yeah they carve rosewood bridges 99 feet wide with those things. Huge 
amazing things with those. Man the guys who can use them are not 
screwing around. Architecture, big structures fantasmagoric feet deep 
carvings. Yowsa wowsa

     They just neglected to give us lessons. I have trouble with them too.
So far they are kicking my ass. I can't really handle them well at all. 
Long and skinny, with a long neck, is what they all are. And one more 
funny looking than the next as far as standard carving blade shapes goes.
    And people just annihilate wood with them.

  You know my buddy Matthew was right there. Buying chisels on the town 
square, with the sound of mallets in the background.
  You'd think he would have hung around more and at least watched?? I'd 
have been.
    yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2014 09:34:10 -0700
From: Brent Beach wrote: "...Forming a bevel by pushing the metal around - using
a knife steel -
affects the crystal structure about the same as stretching the metal to 
20 times its heat treated length. It can be work hardened but its 
durability is compromised."

That accords well with the descriptions of how a polished steel is used: just a
few strokes at a time, but very frequently. The freqent steeling means that low
durability of the edge is not a concern.

Many years ago I had an epiphany when I realized, rightly or wrongly, that
butchers used steels instead of strops for maintenance of the edge during work,
because the state of an absorbant leather strop would be indescribably foul
after a day or two of exposure to blood, fat, and random body fluids. The steel
requires more skill to use properly, it seems, since it doesn't conform slightly
to the edge, and you have to hold the angle exactly right; but the decreased
"yuck" factor makes the steel worth the extra trouble. Dunno if I am right in
this, I've never had any occasion to need a steel, but it makes sense to me.

Tom Conroy

Brent Beach wrote:
> Thinking about steels
>
> On 2014-10-04 08:57, scott grandstaff wrote:
> [Quoting James Thompson]
>> It works quite well.
>>   https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966/KnifeSteelSmoot
h?authuser=0&feat=directlink">https://picasaweb.google.com/102358420595488787966
/KnifeSteelSmooth?authuser=0&feat=directlink
>>
>>    The steel is interesting. It must have worked more like the single
>> tooth scrapers they make Japanese swords with.
>>   Or a 4 sided reamer, like a birdcage awl.
>
> The smaller the radius of the corner, the greater the force per square inch on
the knife bevel. The greater the force the more damage you do to the knife.
>
> A smooth steel would have the largest radius, various types of ribbed steels
much smaller radius except that often two ribs would be in contact with the
bevel.
>
> This steel has the radius of a very thin wire.

I refer people to the post I made upthread, about the
"Victorian Steels that have no "file type" grooves
at all (sharp or otherwise), they're just polygons, some with
hollow faces."

I gave a GIS that showed lots of examples.

  BugBear

Snip
From: Brent Beach



Scott, in scorched earth mode, goes a little too far

On 2014-10-05 11:06, scott grandstaff wrote:
> somesuch, wearing a diaper and flip flops (with socks), and a stubby
> little pony tail,

Don't all galoots have stubby little pony tails?
Unsnip

Sorry Brent but one exception breaks the generalization. 
I refuse to rock the skullet. 

Dave N. 
aka Old Sneelock

> in case anyone missed it
>    Its the "so cool" part, that never fails to crack me up.

I got that, Scott.  I've run into at least one too many chaps who
think the Sun rises and sets on Japanese tools, who approach the
tools with something akin to a religious epiphany.

There's no doubt that Japanese woodwork can be amazing, or that
they have some of the best quality tools.  But there is no "mystical"
superiority of the tools or the men who use them.  No mystical
superiority of pull vs push.  Pull suits the posture of working
seated on the floor.

Pretty much, the rest of the world stands at a bench.  Thing is,
planes work either push or pull.  I do have some Japanese planes,
and they *will* push as well as pull.  But the rest of the world's
planes will pull as well as push, won't they?

Big difference between respecting these tools and idolizing them.

Mike in Sacto

I find that people who elevate Japanese craft to the level of mystical do so
more because of the spirituality inherent in Shinto and the ritual associated
with the work than any real superiority. I remember taking a hard look at the
katana years back. My friends in college thought it was the greatest sword in
history. For my money that was likely the Uthgarth blade of the Viking era. It
has nearly the crystalline structure, purity, and alloy content of modern high
tech carbon steels. To be entirely honest Wootz Damascus blades were probably
better. And still some chucklehead tries to convince me of the superiority of
the katana regularly.

It really is the mysticism. Everything has a spirit. You treat your tools with
respect edging over into reverence because you want to keep the spirits in them
happy so they do good work. In the west we want some of that magic in our lives.
Fortunately we don't need to go to Japan for it. Talk to any Swede or Icelander
about forest spirits and house spirits, any Greek about dryads, or any Native
American about land spirits. It's the same mysticism just not yet brought into
the modern world. The Japanese managed to retain their mysticism and animism in
the face of Christianity.

My great grandfather was a blacksmith apprenticed in Sweden. Though he was a
Lutheran, he talked to fire spirits, steel spirits, wood spirits, tomten, and
others. My Lutheran minister grandfather didn't talk about it much, but the ways
of the old country were there.

Jeff

On Oct 6, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

>> in case anyone missed it
>>   Its the "so cool" part, that never fails to crack me up.
> 
> I got that, Scott.  I've run into at least one too many chaps who
> think the Sun rises and sets on Japanese tools, who approach the
> tools with something akin to a religious epiphany.
> 
> There's no doubt that Japanese woodwork can be amazing, or that
> they have some of the best quality tools.  But there is no "mystical"
> superiority of the tools or the men who use them.  No mystical
> superiority of pull vs push.  Pull suits the posture of working
> seated on the floor.
> 
> Pretty much, the rest of the world stands at a bench.  Thing is,
> planes work either push or pull.  I do have some Japanese planes,
> and they *will* push as well as pull.  But the rest of the world's
> planes will pull as well as push, won't they?
> 
> Big difference between respecting these tools and idolizing them.
> 
> Mike in Sacto
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

Ahh!

On 2014-10-05 23:59, Thomas Conroy wrote:
> seems, since it doesn't conform slightly to the edge, and you have to
> hold the angle exactly right; but the decreased "yuck" factor makes the
> steel worth the extra trouble.

Many of the steels on the Dick page had special hygienic handles! Safe 
to use in a commercial kitchen even with the health inspector handing 
around.

When time is money, the fastest way to get the edge cutting again is the 
the way of choice. Fast and hygienic. Then the sharpening service comes 
in and reshapes all the knives.

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada

nice, jeff.  we have a lot of new world poets who still work with the
spirits, and i've found blacksmiths to be more apt than woodworkers to have
similar respect.  not that woodworkers don't, but talk about "the spirit of
a tree" to a lot of them, and their eyes glaze over.

best,
bill
felton, ca

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 5:54 AM, Jeff Oberg  wrote:

> I find that people who elevate Japanese craft to the level of mystical do
> so more because of the spirituality inherent in Shinto and the ritual
> associated with the work than any real superiority. I remember taking a
> hard look at the katana years back. My friends in college thought it was
> the greatest sword in history. For my money that was likely the Uthgarth
> blade of the Viking era. It has nearly the crystalline structure, purity,
> and alloy content of modern high tech carbon steels. To be entirely honest
> Wootz Damascus blades were probably better. And still some chucklehead
> tries to convince me of the superiority of the katana regularly.
>
> It really is the mysticism. Everything has a spirit. You treat your tools
> with respect edging over into reverence because you want to keep the
> spirits in them happy so they do good work. In the west we want some of
> that magic in our lives. Fortunately we don't need to go to Japan for it.
> Talk to any Swede or Icelander about forest spirits and house spirits, any
> Greek about dryads, or any Native American about land spirits. It's the
> same mysticism just not yet brought into the modern world. The Japanese
> managed to retain their mysticism and animism in the face of Christianity.
>
> My great grandfather was a blacksmith apprenticed in Sweden. Though he was
> a Lutheran, he talked to fire spirits, steel spirits, wood spirits, tomten,
> and others. My Lutheran minister grandfather didn't talk about it much, but
> the ways of the old country were there.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Oct 6, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:
>
> >> in case anyone missed it
> >>   Its the "so cool" part, that never fails to crack me up.
> >
> > I got that, Scott.  I've run into at least one too many chaps who
> > think the Sun rises and sets on Japanese tools, who approach the
> > tools with something akin to a religious epiphany.
> >
> > There's no doubt that Japanese woodwork can be amazing, or that
> > they have some of the best quality tools.  But there is no "mystical"
> > superiority of the tools or the men who use them.  No mystical
> > superiority of pull vs push.  Pull suits the posture of working
> > seated on the floor.
> >
> > Pretty much, the rest of the world stands at a bench.  Thing is,
> > planes work either push or pull.  I do have some Japanese planes,
> > and they *will* push as well as pull.  But the rest of the world's
> > planes will pull as well as push, won't they?
> >
> > Big difference between respecting these tools and idolizing them.
> >
> > Mike in Sacto
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> > aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> > traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> >
> > To change your subscription options:
> > http://ruc
kus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> >
> > To read the FAQ:
> > http://swingleydev.com/arc
hive/faq.html
> >
> > OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> >
> > OldTools@r...
> > http://ruc
kus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

Have we forgotten these sage words from St. Roy:  “Trees are evil, and must be
punished."


Steve Noe, in Indianapolis
StephenNoe@a...
Juicy red meat is not bad for you...
Fuzzy green meat, now THAT’S bad for you


On Oct 6, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Dragon List  wrote:

> nice, jeff.  we have a lot of new world poets who still work with the
> spirits, and i've found blacksmiths to be more apt than woodworkers to have
> similar respect.  not that woodworkers don't, but talk about "the spirit of
> a tree" to a lot of them, and their eyes glaze over.
> 
> best,
> bill
> felton, ca
> [snip per the FFAQ]

Thank you John for the correction, I am a week into a family road trip and I
don't have all of my brain cells available to me. He is correct as to the makers
mark forge welded into the blade. There is a decent documentary on Netflix about
it called The Viking Sword. The technique for refining the steel was likely
imported from the Middle East. Those Vikings, amazing woodworkers, sailors,
metal smiths, and willing to appropriate anything not nailed down. Then they
swiped a claw hammer. So they get the nailed down stuff too.

Jeff

> On Oct 6, 2014, at 3:00 PM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Jeff.
>  
> You wrote a TYPO, an embarrassing one that you would want to retract:
>  
> " For my money that was likely the Uthgarth blade of the Viking era."
>  
> No...you mean "Ulfberht blade"
>  
> This is an unfortunate typo, because the Uthgarth blade is a term from one or
more works of fiction, as near as I can determine.
>  
> You might want to issue a correction. Blame it on the spell checker !
>  
> John Ruth

> we have a lot of new world poets who still work with the
> spirits, and i've found blacksmiths to be more apt than woodworkers to 
> have
> similar respect.

In Viet-Nam, the first order of the day, before any work starts, is for 
the
master of the shop to tend the altar to Lao Ban, the patron of 
carpenters
and shipwrights.  Each carpenter is supposed to maintain such an altar 
at
home as well.  Lao Ban has two feast days annually, and these are 
observed
at the shop, with no work supposed to be done.  I believe the same would 
be
true of Chinese shops, since Lao Ban comes from Chinese mythology.

It's more of a reverence for ancestors, very Confucian.  Any Viet-Namese
carpenter will explain that "without the master, there would be no 
trade."
Therefore, it is right to recognize the source of one's trade.  So it's 
a
matter of making sure one starts each work day in the "right mind."

Not a bad idea, I think.

Mike in Sacto

giving thanks for the view we have because we stand on the shoulders of our
forebears is always a great way to start the day.

best,
bill
felton, ca

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 5:01 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

> we have a lot of new world poets who still work with the
>> spirits, and i've found blacksmiths to be more apt than woodworkers to
>> have
>> similar respect.
>>
>
> In Viet-Nam, the first order of the day, before any work starts, is for the
> master of the shop to tend the altar to Lao Ban, the patron of carpenters
> and shipwrights.  Each carpenter is supposed to maintain such an altar at
> home as well.  Lao Ban has two feast days annually, and these are observed
> at the shop, with no work supposed to be done.  I believe the same would be
> true of Chinese shops, since Lao Ban comes from Chinese mythology.
>
> It's more of a reverence for ancestors, very Confucian.  Any Viet-Namese
> carpenter will explain that "without the master, there would be no trade."
> Therefore, it is right to recognize the source of one's trade.  So it's a
> matter of making sure one starts each work day in the "right mind."
>
> Not a bad idea, I think.
>
>
> Mike in Sacto
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

> giving thanks for the view we have because we stand on the shoulders
> of our forebears is always a great way to start the day.

That is exactly my thinking, Bill.  A little bit of humility and
mindfulness is a very good way to start a day.  Glad you see it the
same way.

Mike in Sacto

it's one of the reasons i love this place, mike.

and, it's not only a good way to start the day.  i love it when i can carry
that on all day.

best,
bill
felton

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

> giving thanks for the view we have because we stand on the shoulders
>> of our forebears is always a great way to start the day.
>>
>
> That is exactly my thinking, Bill.  A little bit of humility and
> mindfulness is a very good way to start a day.  Glad you see it the
> same way.
>
> Mike in Sacto
>

I think that understanding where you come from is important in most any
endeavor you might undertake.  Otherwise, you are just re-inventing the
wheel and/or re-making mistakes that have already been made and that is, of
course, a waste of time.  Learning from masters is always good and then
developing new from that is even better.  I heard a pastor once talk about,
learning old ideas, upon which new ideas can be built.  In music, you must
learn the basics of technique and music theory before you can even start to
be "creative." Otherwise, your just making random noise that isn't
appealing to anyone.  Having respect and honor for those that have gone
before is something that is very valuable, but unfortunately has been lost
too much in the world today.

Doc


On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Dragon List  wrote:

> it's one of the reasons i love this place, mike.
>
> and, it's not only a good way to start the day.  i love it when i can carry
> that on all day.
>
> best,
> bill
> felton
>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 9:11 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:
>
> > giving thanks for the view we have because we stand on the shoulders
> >> of our forebears is always a great way to start the day.
> >>
> >
> > That is exactly my thinking, Bill.  A little bit of humility and
> > mindfulness is a very good way to start a day.  Glad you see it the
> > same way.
> >
> > Mike in Sacto
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>



-- 
John Holladay
DocHolladay0820@g...
205-229-8484

On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:28 AM, John Ruth  wrote:

>
> There's a German make called "F. Dick"that makes sharpening steels in
> levels of fine-ness.  When you want to "get German", i.e. go into high
> precision mode, on a knife, you steel it first with the regular grade steel
> and then with the fine steel.d the FAQ:
>
-- 
Love the Synchronicity of the list

Kept this string of messages handy.

At an Estate Sale this morning, had my hands full of leather working tools,
and moved to the next table.  Was reaching for a sharpening steel, and
another gent was reaching at the same time.  I was juggling, so let him go
ahead.  He sets it down, with the F. Dick label facing up.  I immediately
snatch it up.  Got everything for what I would have paid for the steel.
Course it has a bit of rust, but somewhere in this thread, I am sure there
is a note on how to remove rust.

http://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/2707230_ZhyWq#
!i=3605631855&k=CVkm5nS">http://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-
Tools/2707230_ZhyWq#!i=3605631855&k=CVkm5nS

Big fella too, 14" of steel.



Kirk Eppler, who stopped at the estate sale on my way to the beach with the
dogs.

Kirk,

There are two green handled tools in your picture.  Iss the upper one
a leather working tool?  And if it is, what's it for?  I have one of
these somewhere and wonder if I've been missing something.

Bruce Z.
Des Moines, IA

Removing rust?  Don't think we've ever discussed it (tongue firmly on
cheek).  At least not in the past hour or two.

Doc
Seeing the world beginning at 4:00 am way too frequently these days.  Don't
those darned airlines know that this is inconvenient for me?   Sheesh!
On Oct 11, 2014 10:59 PM, "Kirk Eppler"  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:28 AM, John Ruth  wrote:
>
> >
> > There's a German make called "F. Dick"that makes sharpening steels in
> > levels of fine-ness.  When you want to "get German", i.e. go into high
> > precision mode, on a knife, you steel it first with the regular grade
> steel
> > and then with the fine steel.d the FAQ:
> >
> --
> Love the Synchronicity of the list
>
> Kept this string of messages handy.
>
> At an Estate Sale this morning, had my hands full of leather working tools,
> and moved to the next table.  Was reaching for a sharpening steel, and
> another gent was reaching at the same time.  I was juggling, so let him go
> ahead.  He sets it down, with the F. Dick label facing up.  I immediately
> snatch it up.  Got everything for what I would have paid for the steel.
> Course it has a bit of rust, but somewhere in this thread, I am sure there
> is a note on how to remove rust.
>
>
> http://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/2707230_ZhyW
q#!i=3605631855&k=CVkm5nS">http://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-
Tools/2707230_ZhyWq#!i=3605631855&k=CVkm5nS
>
> Big fella too, 14" of steel.
>
>
>
> Kirk Eppler, who stopped at the estate sale on my way to the beach with the
> dogs.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>

Kirk,

Nice score! Is the surface of the F. Dick sharpening steel smooth or serrated?

Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle

Kirk,

Synchronicity of the Porch ? Yes indeed, because the F. Dick steel you just
bought is identical to the one that I own!

Unusual handle, eh?

John
Ruth------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, hadn't gotten around to tagging the pics yet.

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Bruce Zenge  wrote:

> Kirk,
>
> There are two green handled tools in your picture.  Is the upper one
> a leather working tool?  And if it is, what's it for?  I have one of
> these somewhere and wonder if I've been missing something.
>

With the starting caveat being "if you don't know what it is, its a leather
working tool!"

I am not really sure.  There were a few leather working tools in the box,
groover and skiver, and a couple of the Hyde knives.  These actually might
be hoof cleaning tools. There were other odd tools like grout removing,
fishing pliers etc.  These are sharpened near the end, but not the bend.
Made in USA is all I have to go on.  I stupidly left the drawknife type
skier behind (at least thats what I think it was!)

Ed Minch  wrote:

Is the handle on the eggbeater original??

Not sure yet, but I doubt it.  Its a 1530 gizmocity drill, and the handle
fitting is old and covered with gunk. Could be some brazing under the
gunk.  Don't see any mention of pistol grip in the North Bros book.  It was
probably done a long time ago.


Chuck Taylor  wrote:

Nice score! Is the surface of the F. Dick sharpening steel smooth or
serrated?

Not smooth, but very fine serrations.  Definitely smoother than my
Henckel's steel.






-- 
Kirk Eppler, afraid brave the traffic to look for the skiver