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250263 Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> 2014‑09‑01 Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
Friends,

I seek advice, guidance, experience or failing that, opinions, before I 
do something I may come to regret.

I have some European (English) beech moulding planes, boxwood slipped, 
which have been oiled within an inch of their life and then apparently 
stored in the back of a chimney.  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.  
I doubt that they will ever be returned to the warm honey brown of 
patinated beech, but I'd like to lighten the colour if that can be done 
short of using paint stripper.  I looked at Tony Seo's Galoot Formula #1 
page, but reading the cautions I doubt that adding more linseed oil and 
wax to the existing coat will improve the situation.

Any suggestions as to how to go about doing this would be appreciated.

Thanks and Regards,

Tony B
Hobart, Tasmania
250264 "Peter Evans" <peterrevans@o...> 2014‑09‑01 RE: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
G'day Tony, I have not sourced any planes from chimneys, but find a mix of
BLO, Metho, Turps, Vinegar to do a pretty good cleaning job, and leaves a
bit of a finish. I cannot remember the proportions I first read, but just
make it up from time to time, refreshing the mix periodically with metho (or
denatured alcohol, in the illusion that it is somehow better). I would use
dry cleaning fluid, or paint thinner, if there was no turps on hand. Slurp
it on, and rub with a Scotchbrite(r) pad. Wipe off and repeat as necessary.

I wonder if a version with Shellac in lieu of vinegar might leave a better
finish?

Cheers
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Blanks
Sent: Monday, 1 September 2014 4:46 PM
Subject: [OldTools] Cleaning blackened moulding planes?

Friends,

I seek advice, guidance, experience or failing that, opinions, before I do
something I may come to regret.

I have some European (English) beech moulding planes, boxwood slipped, which
have been oiled within an inch of their life and then apparently stored in
the back of a chimney.  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.  
I doubt that they will ever be returned to the warm honey brown of patinated
beech, but I'd like to lighten the colour if that can be done short of using
paint stripper.  I looked at Tony Seo's Galoot Formula #1 page, but reading
the cautions I doubt that adding more linseed oil and wax to the existing
coat will improve the situation.

Any suggestions as to how to go about doing this would be appreciated.
250265 JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
First, are we sure this is surface contamination? In recently acquired a bowl
which has a large blackish stain in the bottom, and it simply will not bleach
out or clean up. I believe it is mold. I resorted to a super dark stain on the
whole thing to hide the stain.


On Aug 31, 2014, at 11:46 PM, Tony Blanks  wrote:

> Friends,
> 
> I seek advice, guidance, experience or failing that, opinions, before I do
something I may come to regret.
> 
> I have some European (English) beech moulding planes, boxwood slipped, which
have been oiled within an inch of their life and then apparently stored in the
back of a chimney.  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.  I doubt that they will
ever be returned to the warm honey brown of patinated beech, but I'd like to
lighten the colour if that can be done short of using paint stripper.  I looked
at Tony Seo's Galoot Formula #1 page, but reading the cautions I doubt that
adding more linseed oil and wax to the existing coat will improve the situation.
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to go about doing this would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> 
> Tony B
> Hobart, Tasmania
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
250266 Tom Dugan <tom_dugan@h...> 2014‑09‑01 RE: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
That's the tallow they used for lubrication. English planes I've seen and owned
always - always  -are darker than their American counterparts. I suspect it
actually reacts with the beech to darken the wood, but I may be mistaken. If you
look closely you'll see the lighter areas where the worker's hands rubbed it
clean. It tells you how to hold it.

Leave it.

-T


> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 16:46:21 +1000
> From: dynnyrne@i...
> To: OldTools@r...
> CC: 
> Subject: [OldTools] Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
> 
> Friends,
> 
> I seek advice, guidance, experience or failing that, opinions, before I 
> do something I may come to regret.
> 
> I have some European (English) beech moulding planes, boxwood slipped, 
> which have been oiled within an inch of their life and then apparently 
> stored in the back of a chimney.  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.  
> I doubt that they will ever be returned to the warm honey brown of 
> patinated beech, but I'd like to lighten the colour if that can be done 
> short of using paint stripper.  I looked at Tony Seo's Galoot Formula #1 
> page, but reading the cautions I doubt that adding more linseed oil and 
> wax to the existing coat will improve the situation.
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to go about doing this would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> 
> Tony B
> Hobart, Tasmania
> 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
250267 Brent Kinsey <brentpmed@c...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
Tony asks about the black on some English beech planes:

St. Roy discusses the dark, sometimes black patina on English planes on a couple
of The Woodwrights Shop episodes and explained it was from years of being wiped
down with tallow and then being handled on a daily basis during use.  This was
done to protect the planes from drying out and cracking. The tallow being so
thoroughly worked into the wood, it may not come out short of scraping or
sanding.  You may just want to consider it honest patina from real working
planes and craftsman's hands.  I would just take a conservative approach and try
using a cotton rag and some mineral spirits.

$0.02

Sent from my iPad
>
250268 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
Brent Kinsey wrote:
> Tony asks about the black on some English beech planes:
>
> The tallow being so thoroughly worked into the wood, it may not come out short
of scraping or sanding.

I will admit to my ignorance of what the black is, but IME the black built up
I've encountered on planes
here in the UK softens and comes off fairly easily using metholated spirits.

  BugBear
250270 Philip Yarra <philip.yarra@i...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
Hi Tony,

What I offer is based on limited experience. A few years back I obtained from
Peter McBride a rather lovely wooden jointer that had been linseeded so badly
that it was like handling a soggy jellybean. Gummy and tacky from layer upon
layer of uncured oil. In some places, like around the handle, it was thick
enough to scrape off. Bleh!

Peter's advice was metho and fine steel wool, and it worked a treat. It took
quite a while,  but the results were worth while. I eventually got it back to
bare wood more or less, and applied a thin layer of boiled linseed. The sole,
once cleared of oil buildup, appears to be lignum vitae.

Whether you apply my advice to valuable tools is entirely up to you. I don't
know how this would work with baked on oil. Hmmmm... oven de-greaser probably
would be bad for wood :-)

Cheers,
Philip. 




Sent from my GT-N8020 on the Telstra 4G network
250272 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened mouldingplanes?
>  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.

Sheesh, think of all the trouble people go to trying to ebonize wood.

I haven't tried naptha (lighter fluid) but that might not be a bad idea.
Rare book dealers use it to clean off the occasional stain from old 
leather
binding as well as other bindings.  Seems it cleans without damaging 
either
leather or cloth.  Sure works on gummy glues -- better than alcohol in 
my
experience.

I've had good luck using lacquer thinner on a number of tools.  I bought
a beech handled pad saw that had been treated to a layer of ugly green
paint and found that lacquer thinner not only got rid of the paint, but
also the grime that was underneath the paint.  There wasn't that much
grime, but the result was a nice darker golden beech handle.  Not
brand new looking, but clear.  So I've tried it on other tools that
looked like they had been repeatedly fondled by auto mechanics who
never washed their hands.

Mike in Sacto
250273 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened mouldingplanes?
> St. Roy discusses the dark, sometimes black patina on English planes
> on a couple of The Woodwrights Shop episodes and explained it was from
> years of being wiped down with tallow ...

How'd I miss this from the Woodwright's Shop?  Tallow... That Spanish
cooper in the video noted here a few months back lubricated the bottom
of his plane with manteca, which at least in Californio Spanish meant
tallow.

I gather it was a common practice in England?

Mike in Sacto
250282 <peter_mcbride@b...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
Tony,
Philip has reported my preferred oil remover, and Bugbear the same way. 
Some beech planes I leave with the hand and finger wear that have left the mark
of the user, but if they are as you describe, it is grungy, dirty mess, and I
just hate it.

Is the black only in the oil, or is it like a chemical reaction with the tannin?
I've done complete tool box sets of the "black oiled planes" consisting of
moulding planes, bench planes including plough planes and fillisters, by
removing the wedges and blades and splashing the surface with a generous amount
of metho, or if a complete set, soaking it all in a shallow tub of metho for
about 10 minutes.
I don't leave them in the soak for long. 
I take one out, and replace it with grungy one at the back of the queue
(line..paddy) I use a rotating group of about 3 or 4 pieces of fine or medium
grade steel wool soaking in the metho and shaking them about under the surface
removing the grunge until it's done. If there are more than 10 planes I will go
through quite a bit of the steel wool as it wears away. And replace the metho as
it gets real dirty and looses its oomph.
Now, if the black is a reaction stain like ammonia in oak, or acid of some sort,
or the wet iron contact ... you might try the oxalic acid. That can be got from
bunnies I think. (Borg, Paddy)
I've seen it used on oak with great results. 
Then you will need to oil or colour them with you favorite warm yellow finish. 
I'm not a fan of BLO. 
I've spent lots of time getting grungy, black sticky sh¥te off my Dad's and
Grandfather' stuff. Those things I really care about, and then there are the
tons of other tools swimming in it. The tools that pass through my hands look
un-saleable to me, so I give them the treatment too.
Pictures you ask?
Here we go...
The jointer at the back has the hand prints, and the front two are cleaned and
shellaced.
http://www.peterm
cbride.com/Maling/maling_tools1.jpg

Here is a cleaned set. 

http://www.pete
rmcbride.com/temp/images/moulding11.jpg

And here are some cleaned and shellaced and the rest not. 
http://www.petermcbride
.com/Maling/maling1.jpg

Regards,
Peter
In Main Ridge Vic
Australia. 



> On 1 Sep 2014, at 4:46 pm, "Tony Blanks"  wrote:
> 
> Friends,
> 
> I seek advice, guidance, experience or failing that, opinions, before I do
something I may come to regret.
> 
> I have some European (English) beech moulding planes, boxwood slipped, which
have been oiled within an inch of their life and then apparently stored in the
back of a chimney.  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.  I doubt that they will
ever be returned to the warm honey brown of patinated beech, but I'd like to
lighten the colour if that can be done short of using paint stripper.  I looked
at Tony Seo's Galoot Formula #1 page, but reading the cautions I doubt that
adding more linseed oil and wax to the existing coat will improve the situation.
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to go about doing this would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> 
> Tony…
..........
250283 Gary Roberts <toolemera@m...> 2014‑09‑01 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
and my two cents

Trisodium phosphate in a mild solution is gentler than oxalic acid, which will
also bleach wood. You have to neutralize either one afterwards. I’ve used a weak
solution of baking soda but there are other options including just washing the
surface with water.

I no longer can use anything that gives off intense fumes, so TSP is what I’ve
turned to. Naptha is a powerful solvent that flashes off rapidly, one of the
reasons conservators use it. But it is very flammable and must be used with tons
of ventilation.

There may very well be just a surface film of dirty linseed oil or tallow
obscuring the grain. If so, a mild degreaser or solvent such as TSP could do
enough to bring the planes back to life.

Best of luck!
Gary
...............................
Gary Roberts
http://toolemera.com
http://toolemerabooks.com

"I'ld rather read a good book, than write a poor one." Christopher Morley




On Sep 1, 2014, at 2:46 AM, Tony Blanks  wrote:

> Friends,
> 
> I seek advice, guidance, experience or failing that, opinions, before I do
something I may come to regret.
> 
> I have some European (English) beech moulding planes, boxwood slipped, which
have been oiled within an inch of their life and then apparently stored in the
back of a chimney.  Dark doesn't begin to describe them.  I doubt that they will
ever be returned to the warm honey brown of patinated beech, but I'd like to
lighten the colour if that can be done short of using paint stripper.  I looked
at Tony Seo's Galoot Formula #1 page, but reading the cautions I doubt that
adding more linseed oil and wax to the existing coat will improve the situation.
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to go about doing this would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> 
> Tony B
> Hobart, Tasmania
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
250285 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2014‑09‑02 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
On 9/1/2014 5:07 AM, paul womack wrote:
>
> I will admit to my ignorance of what the black is, but IME the black 
> built up I've encountered on planes
> here in the UK softens and comes off fairly easily using metholated 
> spirits.
>
>  BugBear

I tried this today on some black grunge on the bunch of moulders I 
picked up at the LV sale earlier this year. Wiping with meths, a rag and 
not too much elbow grease yielded very satisfactory results! It removes 
the grunge, but not all of the black. No steel wool involved. Any tallow 
that got absorbed into the wood seems to stay there. There is still 
evidence of 'prior hands' on the planes when this step is done.

I followed this with a coat of TATHS wood plane cleaner / reviver 
provided by Richard Arnold -
2 parts turpentine, 2 parts raw linseed oil, 1 part white wine vinegar & 
a small amount of meths. Looks good to me!

FWIW
Don
250288 JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> 2014‑09‑02 Re: TSP and Galoot No. 1 was Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
On Sep 1, 2014, at 9:17 PM, Maxwithers  wrote:

> 
> I wondered 1) if there was any difference between pure unboiled linseed oil
and flaxseed oil, and 2) if anyone has actually boiled either to hasten the
drying time.

From Wikipedia:

Modified linseed oils

Stand oil

Stand oil is generated by heating linseed oil near 300 °C for a few days in the
complete absence of air. Under these conditions, the polyunsaturated fatty
esters convert to conjugated dienes, which then undergo Diels-Alder reactions,
leading to crosslinking. The product, which is highly viscous, gives highly
uniform coatings that "dry" to more elastic coatings than linseed oil itself.
Soybean oil can be treated similarly, but converts more slowly. On the other
hand, tung oilconverts very quickly, being complete in minutes at 260 °C.
Coatings prepared from stand oils are less prone to yellowing than are coatings
derived from the parent oils.[29]

Boiled linseed oil

Today, "boiled linseed oil" refers to a combination of raw linseed oil, stand
oil (see above), and metallic dryers (catalysts to accelerate drying).[29] In
Medieval times, linseed oil was boiled with lead oxide[30] (litharge) to give a
product called boiled linseed oil. The lead oxide forms lead "soaps" (lead oxide
is alkaline) which promotes hardening (polymerisation) of linseed oil by
reaction with atmospheric oxygen. Heating shortens its drying
time.------------------------------------------------------------------------
250292 neilshaw@a... 2014‑09‑02 Re: Cleaning blackened moulding planes?
I know exactly what you are talking about,  tallow, lanolin and gord
knows what rubbed into English beech which shrinks and cracks here in
Oz

	 

	The oldest softest nearly worn out plastic potscrubber - don't ask
for a new one as you will be told to break it in - from kitchen and
acetone (Diggers brand is usually available in ColesWorths) and a bit
of effort

	You wont get it all out as it has been baked in over the years

	Reoil with any oil that doesn't go rancid or the cracking and
shrinking will restart

	 

	Neil

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul womack" 
To:"Brent Kinsey" , "Tony Blanks" 
Cc:"OldTools" 
Sent:Mon, 01 Sep 2014 12:07:45 +0100
Subject:Re: [OldTools] Cleaning blackened moulding planes?

 Brent Kinsey wrote:
 > Tony asks about the black on some English beech planes:
 >
 > The tallow being so thoroughly worked into the wood, it may not
come out short of scraping or sanding.

 I will admit to my ignorance of what the black is, but IME the black
built up I've encountered on planes
 here in the UK softens and comes off fairly easily using metholated
spirits.

 BugBear

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
 aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
usage,
 value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
 traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

 To change your subscription options:
 http://ruckus
.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

 To read the FAQ:
 http://swingleydev.com/archiv
e/faq.html

 OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/

 OldTools@r...
 http://ruckus
.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
252805 branson <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑04 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
I've seen a lot of wooden planes, but this one from Croatia takes the 
cake.  At first it looked like a simple jointer, but then I noticed two 
totes at right angles to each other...  Then the two blades...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonnellerie_%C3%A0_K
umrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonne
llerie_%C3%A0_Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg

Mike in Sacto
252808 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑04 Re: Fwd: Re: Strangest plane I've seen
If you enlarge the picture, I think you will see that the blade facing 
the camera is indeed narrow, but the other blade is a good deal wider.  
Neither strikes me as narrow enough for dado work.  There might be a 
fence, yes.

The shaving horse is worth notice as well, and also looks like a 
double-duty tool.  The head is long, and the top seems to be for working 
with the movable and removable upright for working legs, like one we 
discussed not long ago.

It seems that the shop itself is double-duty, for there's more than 
cooper's tools in evidence.

Mike in Sacto (now on my 4th cup of java)

On 2015-01-04 06:14, Gary Katsanis wrote:
> Very unusual - it looks like there might be a fence on the right
> cheek, if you hold the handle facing away from the bench.
> 
> Both irons are narrow.  Could it be a dado plane of some kind?
> 
> Gary Katsanis
> Albion NY, USA
> (before my second cup of coffee)
252809 William Ghio <bghio@m...> 2015‑01‑04 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
On Jan 4, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

> If you enlarge the picture, I think you will see that the blade facing the
camera is indeed narrow, but the other blade is a good deal wider.  Neither
strikes me as narrow enough for dado work.  There might be a fence, yes.
> 
> The shaving horse is worth notice as well, and also looks like a double-duty
tool.  The head is long, and the top seems to be for working with the movable
and removable upright for working legs, like one we discussed not long ago.
> 
> It seems that the shop itself is double-duty, for there's more than cooper's
tools in evidence.

Hard to know what it is. When you enlarge it you can see the numbered ID(?) tags
on many of the tools and the "worker" is a mannequin.

Bill
252810 Nichael Cramer <nichael@s...> 2015‑01‑04 Re: Fwd: Re: Strangest plane I've seen
Gary Katsanis wrote:
>Very unusual - it looks like there might be a fence on the right 
>cheek, if you hold the handle facing away from the bench.
>
>Both irons are narrow.  Could it be a dado plane of some kind?

1] The iron whose top is pointing toward the viewer seems to be 
notably narrower than
the other iron.  (Also, obviously, only one blade engages the wood at a time).

Maybe something like a scrub/jack pane combined with a jointer?

I..e. make a first pass to hog off the worst of the rough stuff,
then simply flip the plane on its side and do the clean up?
(Notice that if this is the case, then the "extra" handle would be pointing
away from the user on the second/cleanup pass).
(Also, something like this might explain the large size.)

2] Thinking a little more about a "combo two-pass" plane of this size.
I sure wish we could see what the soles look like.

Maybe it's a large size cornice plane.  One side --with the narrower 
blade-- makes an initial cut
to do remove a lot of the initial work.  Then the second pass does 
the finish work.
Something like this might help explain why there might be the fence 
that Gary suggests.

Just some early morning thoughts.
Nichael


>Gary Katsanis
>Albion NY, USA
>(before my second cup of coffee)
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject:        Re: [OldTools] Strangest plane I've seen
>Date:   Sun, 04 Jan 2015 06:01:29 -0800
>From:   branson 
>To:     oldtools@r...
>
>
>
>I've seen a lot of wooden planes, but this one from Croatia takes the
>cake.  At first it looked like a simple jointer, but then I noticed two
>totes at right angles to each other...  Then the two blades...
>
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonnellerie_%C3%A0_
Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonn
ellerie_%C3%A0_Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg
>
>Mike in Sacto
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
>aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
>value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
>traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
>To change your subscription options:
>http://ruckus
.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
>To read the FAQ:
>http://swingleydev.com/archiv
e/faq.html
>
>OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
>OldTools@r...
>http://ruckus
.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
252811 David Nighswander <wishingstarfarm663@m...> 2015‑01‑04 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
From: Nichael Cramer






Gary Katsanis wrote:
>Very unusual - it looks like there might be a fence on the right 
>cheek, if you hold the handle facing away from the bench.
>
>Both irons are narrow.  Could it be a dado plane of some kind?

1] The iron whose top is pointing toward the viewer seems to be 
notably narrower than
the other iron.  (Also, obviously, only one blade engages the wood at a time).

Maybe something like a scrub/jack pane combined with a jointer?

I..e. make a first pass to hog off the worst of the rough stuff,
then simply flip the plane on its side and do the clean up?
(Notice that if this is the case, then the "extra" handle would be pointing
away from the user on the second/cleanup pass).
(Also, something like this might explain the large size.)

2] Thinking a little more about a "combo two-pass" plane of this size.
I sure wish we could see what the soles look like.

Maybe it's a large size cornice plane.  One side --with the narrower 
blade-- makes an initial cut
to do remove a lot of the initial work.  Then the second pass does 
the finish work.
Something like this might help explain why there might be the fence 
that Gary suggests.

Just some early morning thoughts.
Nichael


>Gary Katsanis
>Subject:        Re: [OldTools] Strangest plane I've seen 
>I've seen a lot of wooden planes, but this one from Croatia takes the
>cake.  At first it looked like a simple jointer, but then I noticed two
>totes at right angles to each other...  Then the two blades...
>
>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonnellerie_%C3%A0_
Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonn
ellerie_%C3%A0_Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg
>
>Mike in Sacto



Looks like a frugal woodworker made a tool with two uses. 
I sometimes wonder about the motivation for tools arriving in museums. 
The very best chisels can be found in private collections. Carefully sharpened
and used just like Dad or Uncle Harry would have wanted them.  Eventually they
will wear away and disappear. The Globemaster multitools are sold at the garage
sale still in their package.  Hidden in the back of the toolbox or shop drawer
they may survive for centuries.
I have found two Disston #45 combination level/saws so far. Both of them in the
same shop. Same price for each. One of them missing the handle. Basically a saw
bladed with extra etching.  The other with a broken vial in the level. Price is
always subjective but the idea that a short leg square would replace a rafter
square rings false to me. Much like an adjustable wrench will work to remove a
bolt, but screw up the flats, a tool that attempts to do everything does most of
them badly.
That’s the tool that gets put in the toolbox with a shake of the head for the
son in law that knew you liked tools and wanted to impress. Eventually it will
end up in a donation box and possibly even make a museum display.
How many of us immediately donated our Russel Jennings and Irwin sets as soon as
we got our first adjustable auger bit?
I have more than 12 adj. bits in the basement that arrived some with the
original package along with bins of cracked jars full of bolts and washers.
252820 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
Mike in Sacto offered this picture:.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonnellerie_%C3%A0_K
umrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Tonne
llerie_%C3%A0_Kumrovec%2C_Croatie.jpg

Lots of puzzles here. The item hanging on the left-hand wall has me completely
flummoxed. It reminds me in some ways of a bookbinders' plough and in others of
a bookbinders' French lying press, but it definitely isn't either and I can't
make out where it is supposed to open or what it is supposed to do. Is the metal
plate on the lower-central cheek a blade? If not, what?  The shop is supposed to
be a cooper's shop, apparently, but I don't see what this would do for a cooper.
This one is a complete mystery to me.

Tom Conroy
252821 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
> The item hanging on the left-hand wall has me completely flummoxed.

A tool known by many names, one that is essential for making casks in
tight cooperage (making vessels that don't permit the passage of 
liquids).
I've given up on finding THE name, and use the French, "batissoir."

> Is the metal plate on the lower-central cheek a blade? If not, what?

It's simply a reinforcement or perhaps a repair for the threaded hole
in that piece.

> I don't see what this would do for a cooper.

After the staves have been shaped, they are still straight boards. They
are gathered into a truss hoop, followed by three or four more truss
hoops which are driven down, pinching the staves together.  At this 
point
they look like a skirt, gathered at the top and flaring out at the 
bottom.

To turn them into a barrel, they are heated with fire until the wood is
at about 200 degrees.  At this point the batissoir is used, like a sort 
of
giant hose clamp to draw in the staves at the bottom, creating the curve
of the barrel, and more truss hoops are driven over that end.

The process is shown on this video at about 2 minutes 40 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=027bBKuhLWw

There was a much better video, actually a couple of them, but they are
no longer on Utube.

Mike in Sacto
252822 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
> I don't see what this would do for a cooper.

Here's a much better video on You Tube.  It clearly
shows the use of the mystery tool:

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=hI1jGwEfU8c

Mike in Sacto
252823 Ed Minch <ruby@m...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
Boy, if I did that for a living I would build a table about 2 feet high with the
fire pot on top and the barrel high enough that I could turn that clamp handle
without getting on all fours.  Then it could also roll off the table onto its
other end without a struggle.  Neat to see those specialized tools at work.


Ed Minch




On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:08 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

>> I don't see what this would do for a cooper.
> 
> Here's a much better video on You Tube.  It clearly
> shows the use of the mystery tool:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=hI1jGwEfU8c
> 
> Mike in Sacto
> ----------------------------------
252824 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
Ed Minch wrote:
> Boy, if I did that for a living I would build a table about 2 feet high with
the fire pot on top and the barrel high enough that I could turn that clamp
handle without getting on all fours.  Then it could also roll off the table onto
its other end without a struggle.  Neat to see those specialized tools at work.

Heh. Richard Sennett in "The Craftsman" says that craftsman (in his use of the
word)
prefer general purpose tools to specialized tools.

I don't think he knew many craftsman, and had certainly
not read Salaman on either wood or leather working tools ;-)

  BugBear
252825 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
> Boy, if I did that for a living I would build a table about 2 feet
> high with the fire pot on top and the barrel high enough that I could
> turn that clamp handle without getting on all fours.

But then you'd have to climb up on that table to drive down the hoops.
And to drive down the hoops, you'd have to turn the barrel over with
the winch in place...

Sheesh, Ed, The first (and my favorite video) shows a cooper somewhere
around 80 something doing this. ;-)

Mike in Sacto
252826 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑05 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
> I don't think he knew many craftsman, and had certainly
> not read Salaman on either wood or leather working tools ;-)

He sure hadn't looked at a 19th Century cabinet maker's molding planes.

Mike in Sacto
252856 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2015‑01‑06 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
Michael Blair wrote: "Here's a much better video on You Tube.  It clearly shows
the use of the mystery tool:

https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=hI1jGwEfU8c


It's perfectly obvious now that I see it in use. In my mind I was making it much
more complicated than it is, with two independent screws instead of one and with
four cheeks not three, the central two spreading (I supposed) to leave a gap.
And I didn't realize that the cable draped around it on the wall was a part of
the tool. Thanks, Mike.

If I remember Clive Kilby's book correctly, English beer coopers would do the
same task by putting a big hoop on the spread-out end and then tilting it to
draw the staves in. Sounds simpler but its probably even harder work that way.
Tom Conroy
252858 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2015‑01‑06 Re: Strangest plane I've seen
> ...the central two spreading (I supposed) to leave a gap.

The central two actually confuse me a bit.  This is the only one I've
ever seen with two central pieces -- all the rest show only one.  But
judging from the metal reinforcement plate, this batissoir was worked
very hard, and the doubled middle may have been for added strength.

> If I remember Clive Kilby's book correctly, English beer coopers would
> do the same task by putting a big hoop on the spread-out end and then
> tilting it to draw the staves in. Sounds simpler but its probably even
> harder work that way.

I'm glad you mentioned this.  Kilby doesn't give much mention to drawing
the ends of the staves together after the barrel has been raised.  In
The Cooper's Trade, he mentions, but does not illustrate, the "Dutch 
hand"
and the "Spanish windlass."  These are variations of looping a rope 
around
something and putting a stick through the rope so you can twist it 
tighter
(like the twisting stick in older bow saws).

This probably works well enough on slight barrels and slack cooperage, 
but
Kilby also writes (in Coopers and Coopering) that stout and extra stout
casks had staves 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch thick.  A Dutch hand won't do for 
staves
this thick. I always thought Kilby must have been talking about the 
batissoir.

After reading your post, I went through my photos and drawings, and 
found
that none showed the devise in English use.  Curious.  It is common to 
German,
Spanish, Italian, Portuguese and French coopering.  The first one I ever 
saw
was in the hands of a cooper who worked in one of the Napa cooperages 
(about
30 years ago).  It (and a somewhat simpler form) is illustrated in 
Diderot.

I suspect that by Kilby's time, this tool had been replaced by a 
mechanized
tool, one in current use in commercial cooperages.  The French had been
experimented with a number of steam driven tools for mass production by
the mid 1800s.

If anybody has more information on this issue I'd love to see it.

Mike in Sacto

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