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247376 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Interesting from Paul Sellers
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994
4116875">https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994
4116875
247377 JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Oh, no! Say it isn't so. Paul Sellers placing his very sharp planes on the bench
with the blade touching the surface of the bench.

Do you suppose he just never reads the list, and doesn't know you are not
supposed to do that? Or maybe some other folks don't know what he knows?
Maybe???


On Apr 23, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Ron Harper  wrote:

> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=192869
944116875">https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=192869
944116875
> 

Jim...rattling cages this morning. :>)
247378 Sam DeSocio <samdesocio@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like
Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding.

I do agree that you can make amazing things we low tech tools. Tom Fidgen
is a great example of a modern artisan working with very traditional tools.


On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Ron Harper  wrote:

>
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=192869
944116875">https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=192869
944116875
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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>
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247379 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
He does both, actually. I've watched some of his other videos and he often
has the planes resting on a piece of scrap.  I enjoy his videos. They're
low-key and very accessible.  Not keen on the way he sharpens, but it works
for him.

Dwight
247381 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On Wednesday, April 23, 2014, Sam DeSocio  wrote:

> I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like
> Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding.
>
> I do agree that you can make amazing things we low tech tools. Tom Fidgen
> is a great example of a modern artisan working with very traditional tools.
>
> Then snippage

Also Rosaieski, Konovalloff, Follansbee,  and many others

Sellers scolds those who say you MUST use power tools,though he himself
uses them.and he scolds those who say you have to have the latest new thing.
247382 Sam DeSocio <samdesocio@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Yeah all great examples. I think it might be the British firm upper lip
that pits him at odds with more folks. I'm really glad he teaches the way
he does.
On Apr 23, 2014 1:40 PM, "Ron Harper"  wrote:

>
>
> On Wednesday, April 23, 2014, Sam DeSocio  wrote:
>
>> I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like
>> Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding.
>>
>> I do agree that you can make amazing things we low tech tools. Tom Fidgen
>> is a great example of a modern artisan working with very traditional tools.
>>
>> Then snippage
>
> Also Rosaieski, Konovalloff, Follansbee,  and many others
>
> Sellers scolds those who say you MUST use power tools,though he himself
> uses them.and he scolds those who say you have to have the latest new thing.
>
>
>
247383 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
I think another issue is that both he and Schwarz tell us that we really
can make gorgeous furniture using a very few finely tuned hand tools. Some
of us do not lke  being told we have way more tools than we really need.

On Wednesday, April 23, 2014, Sam DeSocio  wrote:

> Yeah all great examples. I think it might be the British firm upper lip
> that pits him at odds with more folks. I'm really glad he teaches the way
> he does.
> On Apr 23, 2014 1:40 PM, "Ron Harper"
>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 23, 2014, Sam DeSocio
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really
>>> like Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding.
>>>
>>> I do agree that you can make amazing things we low tech tools. Tom
>>> Fidgen is a great example of a modern artisan working with very traditional
>>> tools.
>>>
>>> Then snippagewe
>>
>> Also Rosaieski, Konovalloff, Follansbee,  and many others
>>
>> Sellers scolds those who say you MUST use power tools,though he himself
>> uses them.and he scolds those who say you have to have the latest new thing.
>>
>>
>>
247384 John Holladay <docholladay0820@g...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
>
> Ron wrote:  "some of us do not lke  being told we have way more tools
> than we really need."


I think that maybe "NEED" is not really to right word. For me, I enjoy
tools in and of themselves. I enjoy looking at how they work/function and
how they are made. I enjoy studying the inventive and ingenious designs.
Most of the tools that I have, I do use. However, many more pass through
in one way or another mostly because I find them interesting. I'll buy
them, and learn about them. If I really like them, I'll keep them. If not,
I let them move on, mostly because of a lack of space and don't have room
to have a tool museum.  Still, "NEED" is not really the right word. More of
a simple fascination and enjoyment of tools. This applies to most all kinds
of tools, including kitchen, mechanic, metal working, electrical and
woodworking tools. However, I have little to zero appreciation for plumbing
tools - mostly because I hate plumbing work. I can fix one leak and cause
three new ones at the same time.  I'll leave that to the pros.

Doc


-- 
John Holladay
205-229-8484
docholladay0820@g...
Sent from Gmail Mobile on iOS
247386 branson <branson2@s...> 2014‑04‑23 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
>>Ron wrote: "some of us do not lke being told we have way more tools 
than we really need."

 > I think that maybe "NEED" is not really to right word. For me, I 
enjoy tools in and of themselves.

"Need" is a bit strong, I agree.  And I, too, enjoy what Doc sums up as 
" a simple fascination and enjoyment of tools."  In my case, mostly old 
tools -- they help me grasp the work of the craftsmen
and common citizens who came before us, bring me closer to their lives.

There is a large divide, though, I think, between actual improvement and 
a fascination for new technology.  Looking at the shavings that came off 
all the planes in the video, it seemed obvious that there was actually 
little, if any, difference in performance.  I think he had in mind to 
say that a high end plane (or other tool) doesn't make a better craftsman.

Sometimes, perhaps the reverse is true, when one comes to depend on the 
machine more than one's skill.  I appreciate that sentiment.  Looking to 
buy a back saw years ago, I asked the seller if it cut true.  He told 
me, "depends on the carpenter."

Mike in Sacto
247390 "Maddex, Peter" <peter.maddex@n...> 2014‑04‑24 RE: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Well he is plaining a piece of possibly air dried oak with easy to plane rising
grain and getting good results, not surprising really.
I f he was planeing something with reversing grain things might have been
different.

Pete

-----Original Message-----
From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto
:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Ron Harper
Sent: 23 April 2014 15:55
To: oldtools@r...
Subject: [OldTools] Interesting from Paul Sellers

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994
4116875">https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=624007687669763&id=19286994
4116875
------------------------------------------------------------------------
247391 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Sam DeSocio wrote:
> I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like
> Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding.

I wish Paul Sellers had the confidence to simply
provide woodworking instruction without feeling
the need to (strongly) contrast his technique with those of
an unnamed "them" who have done all sorts of evil things.

He seems to be evangelising against some
kind of strawman opposition, and it's not helpful.

   BugBear
247393 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Galootinous Multitudes,

I was very much put off when an experienced handtool woodworker proclaimed
the eminence of Mr. Seller's edge sharpening method, which he then
proceeded to demonstrate, to my horror. Ahem...slight creative license
there.  I didn't like what I was hearing/observing because I'm still
learning what works best for me and it went against dogma (the horror
part).  Then the little voice says, "Grasshopper, remain open to new
ideas."  All that to say simply that I take what's useful from the message
(video) and don't worry about killing the messanger.  Mr. Seller's overall
approach is low-key and not strident.  I don't think there is any prominent
woodworker/toolmaker/galootish savant who doesn't raise somebody's hackles.
 YMMV.

Regards,

Dwight

On Thursday, April 24, 2014, paul womack  wrote:
>
> I wish Paul Sellers had the confidence to simply
> provide woodworking instruction without feeling
> the need to (strongly) contrast his technique with those of
> an unnamed "them" who have done all sorts of evil things.
>
> He seems to be evangelising against some
> kind of strawman opposition, and it's not helpful.
>
247394 "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> 2014‑04‑24 RE: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Dwight writes -

> I was very much put off when an experienced handtool woodworker proclaimed the
eminence of Mr. Seller's edge sharpening method, which he then proceeded to
demonstrate

While I personally do not use Mr. Sellers method, many of the wooden bench
planes I've owned over the years came with irons that had a slightly convex
bezel. Not sure that validates the approach historically but they certainly
appeared to have been purposefully done. However I can't say the same for
chisels.

Dennis Heyza
Macomb MI
247395 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On 04/24/14, paul womack wrote:

Sam DeSocio wrote:
> I read the article he put up in anticipation of this video. I really like
> Sellers but, it seems like he is often a bit scolding.

I wish Paul Sellers had the confidence to simply
provide woodworking instruction without feeling
the need to (strongly) contrast his technique with those of
an unnamed "them" who have done all sorts of evil things.

He seems to be evangelising against some
kind of strawman opposition, and it's not helpful.
247401 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
I'm wondering what Sellers' sharpening techniques are, that people
seem unhappy with them.  Haven't seen his sharpening demos, so I
don't know what to think.

Mike in Sacto
247402 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Dennis Heyza wrote:
> Dwight writes -
>
>> I was very much put off when an experienced handtool woodworker proclaimed
the eminence of Mr. Seller's edge sharpening method, which he then proceeded to
demonstrate
>
> While I personally do not use Mr. Sellers method, many of the wooden bench
planes I've owned over the years came with irons that had a slightly convex
bezel. Not sure that validates the approach historically but they certainly
appeared to have been purposefully done.

I don't think so; the commonest technique in reference material from 1830-1970
is "double bevel" , where you use a coarse process (e.g. grinding) at around 25
degrees
and a fine process (e.g. natural oilstone) at 30.

If you do this by hand, with a bit of slop, the bevel gets a bit convex.

So in this view, a convex bevel is a (undesired) side effect of double bevel
sharpening.

Indeed, many of the texts have nice illustrations of round bevels
with captions along the line of "when it's looks like this, is may be time to
regrind"

So, the expectation was that flat double bevels where the goal, but that
convexity
would develop naturally. When the convexity becomes excessive, remove it.

So any tool found in the wild would simply be on a point between these two
extremes
from "freshly ground" to "convex and needs rerinding".

   BugBear
247404 Dwight Beebe <dwb1124@g...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:53 AM, paul womack 
 wrote:

snipa, snipa

So in this view, a convex bevel is a (undesired) side effect of double
> bevel sharpening.
>
>   BugBear
>

Gracious Galoots,

>From what I've seen, Mr. Sellers purposefully creates a convex bevel, that
is, no primary or secondary bevel is ground or honed.  Sharpening is
accomplished with a slight "rolling" motion as the blade is moved across
the stone, so that a smaller angle is presented to the stone as you extend
your arms away from your body, conversely, a greater angle is created as
you bring your arms back closer to your body.  For the Porch's edification,
here's a blogpost and video by Mr. Sellers explaining his position
(ideologically) and demonstrating (pragmatically) the results of his method.

http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-
terms/">http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/

Here's a second YouTube video of his actual sharpening process during which
he uses, not stones, but diamond plates with glass cleaner as the vehicle
to remove the swarf.

http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-
terms/">http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/

I don't have a dog in this fight.  I enjoy hearing how others approach
their work and prepare their tools for woodworking.   Please let us not
devolve into finger-pointing, -wagging, or the giving thereof.  Each Galoot
to their own well-considered and practiced sharpening methods.

Regards,

Dwight
247396 "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" <rohrabacher@e...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
I find it entertaining that the Brit prefers inch standard.
247406 Kevin Bock <nashbok@y...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. 

I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air.  

I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general.  I got the galoot
bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and,
occasionally, have done some woodworking.

One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got
into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking
community.  You have to have the latest and greatest plane.  Bailey's design is
inferior.  You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results.  LN or LV are the
only planes worth anything.  Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood.

I've thought about why this is for a while now, and I have two theories:

1. There are a number of woodworking personalities who I think, frankly, don't
have much to contribute to the woodworking community (and there are a lot of
names I could put here).  But they've managed to make their career in writing or
talking about ww. And so they delve into the minutiae of toolery and woodworking
and strive to get their plane tuned so finely they could circumcise a flea
blindfolded.  Then they release a 12 DVD box set on plane tuning and flea
anatomy.  As a newbie, I found this incredibly frustrating.  I didn't want to
"waste" money on a tool that was inferior and I had no real clue how on earth I
would ever get a plane tuned properly, or a chisel perfectly flat, without
spending hundreds of dollars on equipment.


2.  The other issue is just the sales pitch from tool makers. And that's
understandable. They're just trying to sell their product.  I mean, you never
trust someone who works on commission.  I went to a LN hand tool event and came
away thinking the whole company was made of anal retentive woodworkers.  Like
OCD was prerequisite for employment.  The rep was using his bevel up plane to
and he says it's getting dull.  So he takes it over to his $1k sharpening bench,
flattens his 10,000 grit water stone with a $150 diamond plate, then uses a
Veritas sharpenting jig to run his blade over the water stone -- get this --
TWICE.  And then he puts it back into his plane, goes back to his other $1000
workbench, gets out his $50 1oz. hammer and taps away at the blade trying to get
it just right so he can take his nearly invisible shavings.


3. Bonus point.  The internet is alive with a lot of opinions (like mine) and
not a lot of substance when it comes to ww and tools.  Newbies beware...


When I came across Paul Sellers saying you could use a $10 chisel set from Aldi
to get perfectly fine results I was thrilled.  It so flew in the face of the
general consensus of the woodworking carpet-baggers.  I watched almost all of
his videos in the next few days.  I couldn't enough.  It was liberating. D-Day
all over again.


BTW, My poster boy for tool-snobbery is Mr. Schwarz.  I mean, the guy talks
about his tools like you'd expect a Star Bucks barista hippster to talk about
his coffee....and turns his nose up anything that wasn't brewed from mountain
grown organic coffee beans gathered by a Columbian coffee bean picking union
composed exclusively of rainforest natives living in their ancestral manner and
dress.  And then you've got Flo working over at the truck stop serving up coffee
for $.50 a cup.  I mean, both have caffeine, and both will wake you up.  The
StarBucks might be a little stronger but they both do the job.  It's really what
you prefer.


And I don't mean to single out Schwarz (even though I just did) he is just the
first one who comes to mind for me. I expect to walk into Star Bucks one day and
see Schwarz sitting their, with his LN #8, sipping his Espresso, and typing away
at his Mac for his next blogpost on Popular woodoworking about getting your
plane so sharp it cuts the wood fibers on a quantum level.     Schwarz has some
good things to say.  I just think he's a bit of a tool snob.


End of rant. Thanks for listening.  I apologize to everyone I've offended.  


Kevin

  

On Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:41 AM, Dwight Beebe  wrote:
 
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:53 AM, paul womack 
wrote:

snipa, snipa

So in this view, a convex bevel is a (undesired) side effect of double
> bevel sharpening.
>
>   BugBear
>

Gracious Galoots,

>From what I've seen, Mr. Sellers purposefully creates a convex bevel, that
is, no primary or secondary bevel is ground or honed.  Sharpening is
accomplished with a slight "rolling" motion as the blade is moved across
the stone, so that a smaller angle is presented to the stone as you extend
your arms away from your body, conversely, a greater angle is created as
you bring your arms back closer to your body.  For the Porch's edification,
here's a blogpost and video by Mr. Sellers explaining his position
(ideologically) and demonstrating (pragmatically) the results of his method.

http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-
terms/">http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/

Here's a second YouTube video of his actual sharpening process during which
he uses, not stones, but diamond plates with glass cleaner as the vehicle
to remove the swarf.

http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-
terms/">http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/

I don't have a dog in this fight.  I enjoy hearing how others approach
their work and prepare their tools for woodworking.   Please let us not
devolve into finger-pointing, -wagging, or the giving thereof.  Each Galoot
to their own well-considered and practiced sharpening methods.

Regards,


Dwight
247408 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
With respect

On 2014-04-24 09:39, Dwight Beebe wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:53 AM, paul womack 
>   wrote:
>
> snipa, snipa
>
> So in this view, a convex bevel is a (undesired) side effect of double
>> bevel sharpening.
>>
>>    BugBear
>>
>
> Gracious Galoots,
>
>>From what I've seen, Mr. Sellers purposefully creates a convex bevel, that
> is, no primary or secondary bevel is ground or honed.  Sharpening is

I think Mr Bear was talking about commonly found convex bevels, not 
deliberately produced convex bevels.

I agree with him that most often people simply increased the honing 
angle each time in an effort to avoid grinding. In some cases, this may 
have almost been a necessity - electric powered grinders were not common 
in British woodworking shops as late as the 1940s according to one book 
I read. I assume this is because electricity was not common in those shops.

> I don't have a dog in this fight.  I enjoy hearing how others approach
> their work and prepare their tools for woodworking.   Please let us not

A sharpening system in which the finest abrasives are deliberately used 
away from the edge and coarse abrasives are deliberately used at the 
edge is certainly interesting.

As I recall, he also claims he never grinds. Working the bevel (if you 
can call a convex shape a bevel) away from the edge is what I call 
grinding. Since every stroke he takes works the bevel away from the 
edge, by that definition he spends almost all of every stroke grinding. 
But that is just the terminology I use.

Brent
-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
247409 JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Don't get down off the soapbox. I have preached much the same sermon for a long
time. But preaching to the choir is often unproductive. Stay with it. I am too
tired to carry on the fight.

On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Kevin Bock  wrote:

> Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. 
> 
> I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air.  
> 
> I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general.  I got the
galoot bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and,
occasionally, have done some woodworking.
> 
> One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first
got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking
community.  You have to have the latest and greatest plane.  Bailey's design is
inferior.  You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results.  LN or LV are the
only planes worth anything.  Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood.
> 
> I've thought about why this is for a while now, and I have two theories:
> 
> 1. There are a number of woodworking personalities who I think, frankly, don't
have much to contribute to the woodworking community (and there are a lot of
names I could put here).  But they've managed to make their career in writing or
talking about ww. And so they delve into the minutiae of toolery and woodworking
and strive to get their plane tuned so finely they could circumcise a flea
blindfolded.  Then they release a 12 DVD box set on plane tuning and flea
anatomy.  As a newbie, I found this incredibly frustrating.  I didn't want to
"waste" money on a tool that was inferior and I had no real clue how on earth I
would ever get a plane tuned properly, or a chisel perfectly flat, without
spending hundreds of dollars on equipment.
> 
> 
> 2.  The other issue is just the sales pitch from tool makers. And that's
understandable. They're just trying to sell their product.  I mean, you never
trust someone who works on commission.  I went to a LN hand tool event and came
away thinking the whole company was made of anal retentive woodworkers.  Like
OCD was prerequisite for employment.  The rep was using his bevel up plane to
and he says it's getting dull.  So he takes it over to his $1k sharpening bench,
flattens his 10,000 grit water stone with a $150 diamond plate, then uses a
Veritas sharpenting jig to run his blade over the water stone -- get this --
TWICE.  And then he puts it back into his plane, goes back to his other $1000
workbench, gets out his $50 1oz. hammer and taps away at the blade trying to get
it just right so he can take his nearly invisible shavings.
> 
> 
> 3. Bonus point.  The internet is alive with a lot of opinions (like mine) and
not a lot of substance when it comes to ww and tools.  Newbies beware...
> 
> 
> When I came across Paul Sellers saying you could use a $10 chisel set from
Aldi to get perfectly fine results I was thrilled.  It so flew in the face of
the general consensus of the woodworking carpet-baggers.  I watched almost all
of his videos in the next few days.  I couldn't enough.  It was liberating.
D-Day all over again.
> 
> 
> BTW, My poster boy for tool-snobbery is Mr. Schwarz.  I mean, the guy talks
about his tools like you'd expect a Star Bucks barista hippster to talk about
his coffee....and turns his nose up anything that wasn't brewed from mountain
grown organic coffee beans gathered by a Columbian coffee bean picking union
composed exclusively of rainforest natives living in their ancestral manner and
dress.  And then you've got Flo working over at the truck stop serving up coffee
for $.50 a cup.  I mean, both have caffeine, and both will wake you up.  The
StarBucks might be a little stronger but they both do the job.  It's really what
you prefer.
> 
> 
> And I don't mean to single out Schwarz (even though I just did) he is just the
first one who comes to mind for me. I expect to walk into Star Bucks one day and
see Schwarz sitting their, with his LN #8, sipping his Espresso, and typing away
at his Mac for his next blogpost on Popular woodoworking about getting your
plane so sharp it cuts the wood fibers on a quantum level.     Schwarz has some
good things to say.  I just think he's a bit of a tool snob.
> 
> 
> End of rant. Thanks for listening.  I apologize to everyone I've offended.  
> 
> 
> Kevin
> 
>   
> 
> On Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:41 AM, Dwight Beebe  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 10:53 AM, paul womack 
> wrote:
> 
> snipa, snipa
> 
> So in this view, a convex bevel is a (undesired) side effect of double
>> bevel sharpening.
>> 
>>    BugBear
>> 
> 
> Gracious Galoots,
> 
>> From what I've seen, Mr. Sellers purposefully creates a convex bevel, that
> is, no primary or secondary bevel is ground or honed.  Sharpening is
> accomplished with a slight "rolling" motion as the blade is moved across
> the stone, so that a smaller angle is presented to the stone as you extend
> your arms away from your body, conversely, a greater angle is created as
> you bring your arms back closer to your body.  For the Porch's edification,
> here's a blogpost and video by Mr. Sellers explaining his position
> (ideologically) and demonstrating (pragmatically) the results of his method.
> 
> http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-
terms/">http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/
> 
> Here's a second YouTube video of his actual sharpening process during which
> he uses, not stones, but diamond plates with glass cleaner as the vehicle
> to remove the swarf.
> 
> http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-
terms/">http://paulsellers.com/2013/11/sharpness-mean-real-terms/
> 
> I don't have a dog in this fight.  I enjoy hearing how others approach
> their work and prepare their tools for woodworking.   Please let us not
> devolve into finger-pointing, -wagging, or the giving thereof.  Each Galoot
> to their own well-considered and practiced sharpening methods.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Dwight
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
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247410 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On 04/24/14, Kevin Bock wrote:

Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. 

I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air. 

I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general. I got the galoot
bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and,
occasionally, have done some woodworking.

One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got
into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking
community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. Bailey's design is
inferior. You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results. LN or LV are the
only planes worth anything. Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood.
247411 Steve Reynolds <s.e.reynolds@v...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On 04/24/14, Steve Reynolds wrote:

 On 04/24/14, Kevin Bock wrote:

Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox. 

I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air. 

I'm still fairly new to woodworking and hand tools in general. I got the galoot
bug a few years ago have slowly collected a menagerie of tools and,
occasionally, have done some woodworking.

One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I first got
into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the woodworking
community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. Bailey's design is
inferior. You at least need a Bedrock to get decent results. LN or LV are the
only planes worth anything. Wood planes and transitional planes are firewood.
247412 RH Hutchins <rhhutchins@h...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On 4/24/2014 1:50 PM, JAMES THOMPSON wrote:
> Don't get down off the soapbox. I have preached much the same sermon for a
long time. But preaching to the choir is often unproductive. Stay with it. I am
too tired to carry on the fight.
>
> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Kevin Bock  wrote:
>
>> Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox.
>>
>> I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air.
>>
I've read much of what Jim Thompson has posted here and admire his class 
and work results.  Jim is the real deal!

It gives me great pleasure, therefore, to agree with him and with Kevin 
wrt Paul Sellers, although I have neither the class not the body of 
work.   I have had the pleasure of meeting Paul Sellers at the community 
in Elm Mott, Texas (about 45-50 miles from where I sit typing)  where he 
taught (and where I hope he will teach again).  At the time I met him I 
knew nothing about him except that he was the instructor for a 
woodworking class that was ongoing when we visited the community of 
craftsmen who share similar beliefs.

Paul Sellers has great class and great skill.  He, too, is the real deal.

We talked after he had finished answering questions for his students but 
kept his eyes going back to them to see if they were in need of 
correction or information.  We talked of woodworking, my desire to learn 
better skills, and my admiration for those who use simple hand tools, 
their minds, and countless hours of training and experimentation to 
improve their craft.  That he is one of those is without doubt.  The 
shop he was in was as open, spacious and clean as any wood shop I've 
ever been in, including the one run by Paul W. Waldrop who taught me 
shop skills in 1954-55-56.  I asked Paul Sellers about any prerequisites 
he might have for entry to his classes.  He said that there were none 
that were cast in stone, but that he strongly recommended that learning 
basics with hand tools was the best route, partly because he thought 
that hand tools teach the student more about the wood and the processes 
than using power tools does.

He was an altogether pleasant and nice man.  I am fortunate that I did 
not know his reputation at the time, for I might have been too much in 
awe to have felt comfortable taking up his time.  I regret that I did 
not take classes from him while he was there, but hope to have the 
opportunity if he returns.

Bob Hutchins
Temple, TX, USA
247416 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
> It's not just woodworking.  ANY hobby that is equipment-intensive will
> break down into tribes along a spectrum  from those who believe that
> there is a sacred set of things that are required and everything else
> is worthless trash...

Ain't it the truth.  I like guns and shooting.  When I was in high 
school,
I read every gun magazine I could lay my hands on, and they began to 
look
just like this.  They had to be really light weight.  I began to wonder 
about
this idea, since I was carrying, among other rifles, an arsenal 
converted to
.22 caliber WW I vintage Enfield.  I wandered over the hills all day, 
even in
Bakersfield summers carrying that gun and had no problems doing so -- 
even
though I weighed in at 125 pounds. The rifle weighs over 10 pounds.  
Shoots
really straight.

"You can't expect to get the job done on deer with anything less than a 
.308.
News to me.  My current deer rifle is a Winchester '73 in .44/40.  "But 
that
won't work on anything over 100 yards."  News flash: The mountains where 
I
hunt you can't see a hundred yards away.  Last deer I took was around 50 
feet
away.

Mike in Sacto
247417 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
I agree Bob

Here is a novel idea.. Take an old beater chisel or an old Stanley plane
iron. Use Sellers method one time.. It will take 5 minutes the first time
if the back needs any work. Check the result. Then lets talk?

On Thursday, April 24, 2014, RH Hutchins  wrote:

> On 4/24/2014 1:50 PM, JAMES THOMPSON wrote:
>
>> Don't get down off the soapbox. I have preached much the same sermon for
>> a long time. But preaching to the choir is often unproductive. Stay with
>> it. I am too tired to carry on the fight.
>>
>> On Apr 24, 2014, at 11:33 AM, Kevin Bock  wrote:
>>
>>  Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox.
>>>
>>> I think Sellers is a breath of fresh air.
>>>
>>>  I've read much of what Jim Thompson has posted here and admire his
> class and work results.  Jim is the real deal!
>
> It gives me great pleasure, therefore, to agree with him and with Kevin
> wrt Paul Sellers, although I have neither the class not the body of work.
> I have had the pleasure of meeting Paul Sellers at the community in Elm
> Mott, Texas (about 45-50 miles from where I sit typing)  where he taught
> (and where I hope he will teach again).  At the time I met him I knew
> nothing about him except that he was the instructor for a woodworking class
> that was ongoing when we visited the community of craftsmen who share
> similar beliefs.
>
> Paul Sellers has great class and great skill.  He, too, is the real deal.
>
> We talked after he had finished answering questions for his students but
> kept his eyes going back to them to see if they were in need of correction
> or information.  We talked of woodworking, my desire to learn better
> skills, and my admiration for those who use simple hand tools, their minds,
> and countless hours of training and experimentation to improve their craft.
>  That he is one of those is without doubt.  The shop he was in was as open,
> spacious and clean as any wood shop I've ever been in, including the one
> run by Paul W. Waldrop who taught me shop skills in 1954-55-56.  I asked
> Paul Sellers about any prerequisites he might have for entry to his
> classes.  He said that there were none that were cast in stone, but that he
> strongly recommended that learning basics with hand tools was the best
> route, partly because he thought that hand tools teach the student more
> about the wood and the processes than using power tools does.
>
> He was an altogether pleasant and nice man.  I am fortunate that I did not
> know his reputation at the time, for I might have been too much in awe to
> have felt comfortable taking up his time.  I regret that I did not take
> classes from him while he was there, but hope to have the opportunity if he
> returns.
>
> Bob Hutchins
> Temple, TX, USA
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archi
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> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/">http://swingleydev.com/archive/
>
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>
247418 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2014‑04‑24 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Hello Kevin

Couldn't agree more. When it comes to woodworking, it's not about the tools.
The old saying 'tools don't make a tradesman', is an absolute.

But when it comes to collecting tools, it is most certainly only about the
tools!

Mick Dowling
Melbourne
Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc.




On 25/04/2014 4:33 am, "Kevin Bock"  wrote:

> 
> When I came across Paul Sellers saying you could use a $10 chisel set from
> Aldi to get perfectly fine results I was thrilled.  It so flew in the face of
> the general consensus of the woodworking carpet-baggers.  I watched almost all
> of his videos in the next few days.  I couldn't enough.  It was liberating.
> D-Day all over again.
247421 Mark Lovett Wells <mark@m...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Kevin Bock  wrote:

> Pardon me as I ascend my soapbox.
>

Your description below I found very effective and helpful.


> One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I
> first got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the
> woodworking community.  You have to have the latest and greatest plane.
>

I have spent some time thinking about how to teach people to use hand
tools.   There is a very real problem suggesting what tools to get.  On the
one hand, the teacher can be confident that a Lie-Nielsen plane will work
out of the box (after sharpening).  If there are problems using the tool,
they are with the student.  On the other hand, suggesting a student go buy
a wood or transitional plane is like telling the student to travel to a new
city and pick a restaurant.  It is difficult for the student to identify
where they should eat.  The teacher can tell roughly what to look for, but
there are no guarantees.  Following this path, lots of us end up with piles
of okay, but not great tools as we search for just the one we want.  So
which path leads to the least frustration for the student?  That's really
up to the student.

I thought I couldn't afford a jointer plane.  The Lie-Nielsen plane seemed
too expensive.  I was worried a vintage one at over $100 wouldn't work well
and be a waste of money.  So I did something even crazier.  I made a wooden
plane.  It didn't work well.  But in the mean time I found a 100 year-old
Stanley #7 on craigslist for $35 that works very well after just
sharpening.  I have been using that plane for years.  I know how to use it
to make a board flat (because the sole is not perfectly flat).  My level of
work has improved and I want a flatter plane now.  So I taught myself to
flatten a plane sole on shorter planes.  I don't enjoy doing that and it
took a long time.  I am now seriously considering a Lie-Nielsen jointer.
So  what would I recommend to a student?  I don't know!  It really depends
on the student.

BTW, there is a solution to this problem.  Find a galoot who lives near
you.  You may be astonished at the volume of information a single visit can
convey.

Another problem teachers have is they don't have experience with all the
tools.  Let's say I want to recommend a full-size hand saw.  Well, there's
Wenzloff for $325 and a long wait.  There's vintagesaws.com for $200-$550.
There's Pax for $100-125.  There's ebay.  I've never used any of those
saws.  My favorite saw is a Disston D8 that came from Galootaclaus.  It
arrived sharp.  When it was dull, I learned to sharpen on another saw and
then sharpened my favorite saw.  That's not really a repeatable process I
could tell a student to use.

Again, there is a solution to this problem.  Participate in this list and
find a galoot who lives near you.

3. Bonus point.  The internet is alive with a lot of opinions (like mine)
> and not a lot of substance when it comes to ww and tools.  Newbies beware...
>

When I started hand tool woodworking, the internet was full of people
praising the Veritas sharpening jig.  This is the old one with the single
screw on top.  I never did get that jig to function well.  It wasn't until
much later that I learned it was because the jig doesn't function well.  As
soon as you tighten the screw, the blade shifts.  It takes a lot of self
confidence to be able to post, "I bought a $50 sharpening jig made by a
well-respected company.  It doesn't work at all and that's not my fault."
The people with the confidence to say that publicly often sound (or are)
abrasive.


> BTW, My poster boy for tool-snobbery is Mr. Schwarz.  I mean, the guy
> talks about his tools like you'd expect a Star Bucks barista hippster to
> talk about his coffee.


I have been reading Schwarz for several years.  When I first found him, he
was a real breath of fresh air, as you describe Sellers.  He was constantly
trying new techniques and was very good at explaining them.  You might want
to check out the first few editions of Woodworking Magazine to see what I'm
talking about.  He would give instructions on how to inexpensively make
tools (like drift pins) and did not have the tool fetish he does now.  If
you go back even further, you will find them on this forum asking questions.

The problem with all these public personalities is they know that
generating heat (as opposed to light) generates eyeballs and dollars.  They
all do it in their own way.  Besides that, there's only so much to say.
Lots of people on this list watched more Paul Sellers videos because of
this discussion.

If you live anywhere near Minnesota, I suggest checking out Mike Siemsen's
woodworking school.  Mike quietly and succinctly answers questions on this
forum and is a big proponent of getting started with inexpensive tools and
shop assemblies.

Mark
247422 "John M. Johnston" <sgt42rhr@a...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Use method A or B, or even C....each will work. 

Everyone to their own taste, said the old lady as she kissed the cow. 

J~

John M. Johnston
“P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:48 PM, Ron Harper  wrote:

> Use Sellers method one time.. It will take 5 minutes the first time
> if the back needs any work. Check the result. Then lets talk?
247461 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
One of the things that I found really really really frustrating when I 
first got into this was a general sense of tool-snobbery pervading the 
woodworking community. You have to have the latest and greatest plane. 
Bailey's design is inferior.


  Yeah, that is what they all spout, whilst sitting on their butts. 
Funny thing about that.
  I don't see any of them knee deep in shavings of any kind. Ever.
People who think they can "buy their way in" make me laugh out loud.
  People who believe in the snobs, are just chumps, suckers, Marks.

    If you can't get a type 6 to 18 Bailey plane to work and work 
stunningly? Boxcar loads of shavings in just about any wood? End grain too?
   You are a pisspoor example of a woodworker, plain and simple.

  OH PS, if you come up with a better plane adjustment scheme than 
Leonard Bailey? One that will last over 150 years and be copied by 
everyone in the business?
  You be sure to let me know.

  PPS If you genuinely think you can beat out my old beater planes? 
Actual performance in grueling real life work? Please come over here and 
show me. Please.
     yours Scott




-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



-----
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7391 - Release Date: 04/24/14
247466 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@s...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Scott,

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 10:56 AM, scott grandstaff  wrote:
>    Meanwhile the Porch archives, the best that was ever written, is still
> lost. My life's work, among others.  Chris thinks he can get it back but
> hasn't been able to do it yet.

The Archives are alive and well.  The part that is semi-broken still
is the search function.  I say semi-broken because there are two ways
that do still work:

1) Google: preface your search with: site:swingleydev.com">site:swingleydev.com and you'll
get hits from the Archive.  For example:

site:swingleydev.com shellac flooring

2) Use the undocumented new search tool but sticking your search terms
at the end of a URL that looks like this:

http://swingleydev.com/ot/sea
rch/[search words]/

For example:

http://swingleydev.com/ot/sea
rch/shellac flooring/

You can use spaces and you need to end the URL with a '/', but it does
work.  At some point I will connect this search path to a form and an
easier-to-use search function will be back.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
http://swingleydev.com/
cswingle@s...
247467 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
On Friday, April 25, 2014, scott grandstaff  wrote:

> Hey Mike
>  Yeah the yuppie newb's piss me off sometimes.  :)
> I have no respect for little weenies pretending and buying expensive stuff
> to put on a shelf, but won't pay a penny for things that would actually
> help them.
>
>  I didn't watch the Sellers video. I have seen one, and have no doubt
> about who he is. Pisses me off that even a smart newbie like Paul, all he's
> got to have is a video camera, gets so much attention. Idiots will suck up
> and worship anything on video.
>
>    Meanwhile the Porch archives, the best that was ever written, is still
> lost. My life's work, among others.  Chris thinks he can get it back but
> hasn't been able to do it yet.
>
>  Not a good day for me
>      yours Scott
>
> --
> *******************************
>    Scott Grandstaff
>    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
>    scottg@s...
>    http://www.snowcrest.
net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
>    http://www.snowc
rest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
>
>
>
> -----
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> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3920/7391 - Release Date: 04/24/14
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> http://rucku
s.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
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>
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247469 Mark MacCauley <maccauley6218@h...> 2014‑04‑25 RE: Interesting from Paul Sellers
First off, this is my first reply so if something's wrong, it's probably me.
I only started in this hobby two years ago and Paul Sellers Workbench was my
first major project (that I didn't screw up, anyways). I enjoy watching his
videos and that's how I made the workbench (all three of them [well, i'm still
making one of the three]). I do sense a little bit of the "suggestive" tone but
I now enough experienced  people in this hobby to where they can tell me what to
take in and what not to.
I personally prefer older hand tools whenever I need them, in a lot of cases
they're more accurate (in some cases), got more character, and usually are
cheaper. My aunt gave me a jointer plane that belonged to my great grandfather,
so I brought it to school and, relying heavily on my teachers experience, we had
it set up and working good as new (minus a broken handle) in no time. I don't by
any means need a brand new plane and will most likely never get one. I like the
aforementioned qualities of old tools and am in no position to be shelling out
lots of money to buy something new.
Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
247468 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
>  I didn't watch the Sellers video. I have seen one, and have no doubt
> about who he is. Pisses me off that even a smart newbie like Paul, all he's
> got to have is a video camera, gets so much attention. Idiots will suck up
> and worship anything on video



This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently might
suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they have
figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue
stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me.  They are
both huge promoters of the craft. Ain't we better than that?

>
> --
> *******************************
>
>
>
>
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>
247470 Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Interesting thread!  Paul Sellers would fit right in here!

Several years ago, SWMBO bought me his DVD series.  Though I am already familiar
with many of his topics, it is an excellent source/resource foe seeing
techniques.  The DVD was made a few years before he gained his notoriety
regarding his tool suggestions and in the DVD he uses the very tools he speaks
of.

I recently completed a baby changing table and in rethinking the project, the
most enjoyable tools used were those either given to me by my father, or
gathered up by me when he passed.  Those included Stanley trammels, a 60-1/2
block plane and a no-name crosscut.  Not valuable except in a sentimental way,
but very workman like!  Of these, the trammels more than anything gave me the
ability to do a layout very accurately that would have been botched by
measuring.  The trammels represent best what Sellers is:  a traditionally
trained woodworker that knows tools and knows/teaches techniques that are fading
with years.  My LN & LV tools are nice, but my Bedrocks and Baileys give nearly
the same results.  Taking time to set them up (as LV & LN are supplied) and
results are the same.  There is no modern saw that is the equivalent of my
Disston #16.  No modern chisel is the equal of the Mathison, or Bergs, etc.,
that I've picked up through the years.

Sellers is a woodworking personality whether he like it or not and many accept
his word in the same manner as many of the talking heads.  Whether you agree or
disagree with him (I agree), they all are helping our hobby/professions.

Anthony M. Zaffuto
Metaltech, Inc.
(814) 375-9399
247471 JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> 2014‑04‑25 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Yeah, like the Hypocritical oath says, "First do no harm." I don't see Sellers
as doing any harm. I think he probably does some good. So I have no bone to pick
with him.

Many people find that they can turn a phrase that will turn a dollar, and they
go for it. I have no problem with that either. I am not afraid that these people
will mess the minds of the unsuspecting. I used to BE unsuspecting.


On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:34 PM, Tony Zaffuto  wrote:

> Interesting thread!  Paul Sellers would fit right in here!
> 
> Several years ago, SWMBO bought me his DVD series.  Though I am already
familiar with many of his topics, it is an excellent source/resource foe seeing
techniques.  The DVD was made a few years before he gained his notoriety
regarding his tool suggestions and in the DVD he uses the very tools he speaks
of.
> 
> I recently completed a baby changing table and in rethinking the project, the
most enjoyable tools used were those either given to me by my father, or
gathered up by me when he passed.  Those included Stanley trammels, a 60-1/2
block plane and a no-name crosscut.  Not valuable except in a sentimental way,
but very workman like!  Of these, the trammels more than anything gave me the
ability to do a layout very accurately that would have been botched by
measuring.  The trammels represent best what Sellers is:  a traditionally
trained woodworker that knows tools and knows/teaches techniques that are fading
with years.  My LN & LV tools are nice, but my Bedrocks and Baileys give nearly
the same results.  Taking time to set them up (as LV & LN are supplied) and
results are the same.  There is no modern saw that is the equivalent of my
Disston #16.  No modern chisel is the equal of the Mathison, or Bergs, etc.,
that I've picked up through the years.
> 
> Sellers is a woodworking personality whether he like it or not and many accept
his word in the same manner as many of the talking heads.  Whether you agree or
disagree with him (I agree), they all are helping our hobby/professions.
247472 Steve Jones <stjones@k...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
GGs;

I remember when it was a popular pastime to sit around and take shots at
Ian Kirby....

Steve in Kokomo

On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 7:50 PM, JAMES THOMPSON  wrote:

> Yeah, like the Hypocritical oath says, "First do no harm." I don't see
> Sellers as doing any harm. I think he probably does some good. So I have no
> bone to pick with him.
>
> Many people find that they can turn a phrase that will turn a dollar, and
> they go for it. I have no problem with that either. I am not afraid that
> these people will mess the minds of the unsuspecting. I used to BE
> unsuspecting.
>
247475 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
There may be some envy there, for some folks. But I can't help wonder if 
some posts are simply venting some irritation at having been shilled by 
some of the contemporary promoters of woodworking tools and products, or 
seeing others getting shilled.

  I'm not envious because I'm retired and can finally spend time doing 
things I like that I put off too much when I was younger. But I do 
regret having made some purchases because some expert or other promoted 
a product (which I didn't need) as the best thing since sliced bread, 
and I was gullible and ignorant enough to believe it. I am learning 
better now, and spending less, in part because I have realized that I 
can find some old tools at reasonable prices and make them perform as 
well or better than I can expect. That is helped by the many internet 
sources, including this list and its precious archive, but especially 
the many writers of previous generations who actually worked the trades 
and are no longer living, hence have nothing to sell me. But in the 
meanwhile, as example,  I accumulated a supply of sharpening jigs, 
oilstone, waterstones - diamond even - and hardly use quite a few of 
them...

I appreciate the Schwarz, St Roy and Sellars et al when when they teach 
us how to do things, sharing their skill and experience, and especially 
when they show us how to get by with what's cheap and readily available! 
Not so much if they're clearly promoting the latest geegaw.... I go back 
to Kremov, Tage Frid, Joyce, Hasluck and others just because they 
understood the tools of the trade and explained how they made them work. 
As example, Tage Frid saying you really only need rip bowsaws makes a 
huge impact on somebody starting out. Quite the opposite of suggesting 
you need a stable of 12 saws! .But to be fair, one only needs so many 
demos of dovetailing, sawing, etc., so the contemporary writers have to 
keep finding things to show us, just like the manufacturers & retailers 
have to keep coming up with new things to sell to us. It's the way of 
the world, at least in this lifetime...

FWIW, my C$0.02
Don


On 4/25/2014 4:22 PM, Ron Harper wrote:
> This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently might
> suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they have
> figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue
> stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me.
247481 Wesley Groot <wesg@e...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
GG's
And lest we forget when "Nahm" Abrahms was the enemy?
Who cares *who* it is that inspires non-woodworkers to become woodworkers? And
Scott, if your "life's work" is truly held on a server as 1's and 0's, maybe you
might want to cut and paste your life's work into a blog or print it in a book?
Just remember that a million newbie yuppy bastahds can buy all the high tech
yuppy bastahd tools they want and it don't impact your life in the least. Zero,
nada zilch. Why the anger?
Live and let live, brethren. 
Cheers,
Wes


> On Apr 25, 2014, at 7:14 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:
> 
> GGs;
> 
> I remember when it was a popular pastime to sit around and take shots at
> Ian Kirby....
> 
> Steve in Kokomo
247483 Thomas Conroy <booktoolcutter@y...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Dwight Beebe wrote: "....I don't think there is any prominent
woodworker/toolmaker/galootish savant who doesn't raise somebody's hackles...."

Jim Kingshott? Alan Peters?

And after a moment's consideration: Lift a glass to those who went before.

Tom Conroy


'Here's tae us. Wha's like us? Damn few--- and they're a' deid." ---Scottish
army toast.
247489 Steve Jones <stjones@k...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
What he said....

Steve in Kokomo

On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 12:11 AM, Wesley Groot  wrote:

> GG's
> And lest we forget when "Nahm" Abrahms was the enemy?
> Who cares *who* it is that inspires non-woodworkers to become woodworkers?
> And Scott, if your "life's work" is truly held on a server as 1's and 0's,
> maybe you might want to cut and paste your life's work into a blog or print
> it in a book?
> Just remember that a million newbie yuppy bastahds can buy all the high
> tech yuppy bastahd tools they want and it don't impact your life in the
> least. Zero, nada zilch. Why the anger?
> Live and let live, brethren.
> Cheers,
> Wes
>
247490 Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Oops

On 2014-04-25 15:22, Ron Harper wrote:
>>   I didn't watch the Sellers video. I have seen one, and have no doubt
>> about who he is. Pisses me off that even a smart newbie like Paul, all he's
>> got to have is a video camera, gets so much attention. Idiots will suck up
>> and worship anything on video
>
>
>
> This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently might
> suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they have
> figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue
> stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me.  They are
> both huge promoters of the craft. Ain't we better than that?

We appear to have crossed the line into an area of faith rather than logic.

I think the list moms should shut this thread down now.

Brent

-- 
Brent Beach
Victoria, BC, Canada
247492 Bill Ghio <bghio@m...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 26, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Brent Beach  wrote:
> 
> We appear to have crossed the line into an area of faith rather than logic.

Amen.
247498 Ron Harper <kokomorontoo@g...> 2014‑04‑26 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
Whoa!!!!!  I did not say that at all.    I believe Scott did,but it for
sure was NOT me.

On Saturday, April 26, 2014, Brent Beach  wrote:

> Oops
>
> On 2014-04-25 15:22, Ron Harper wrote:
>
>>   I didn't watch the Sellers video. I have seen one, and have no doubt
>>> about who he is. Pisses me off that even a smart newbie like Paul, all
>>> he's
>>> got to have is a video camera, gets so much attention. Idiots will suck
>>> up
>>> and worship anything on video
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This and a few other comments of a similar nature like it it recently
>> might
>> suggest that the real problem withThe Schwarz and Sellers is that they
>> have
>> figured out a way to get some notoriety and a pretty decent revenue
>> stream,doing what they love. Smells a little like envy to me.  They are
>> both huge promoters of the craft. Ain't we better than that?
>>
>
> We appear to have crossed the line into an area of faith rather than logic.
>
> I think the list moms should shut this thread down now.
>
> Brent
>
> --
> Brent Beach
> Victoria, BC, Canada
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247503 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑04‑27 Re: Off list Re: Interesting from Paul Sellers
What nobody seems to have noticed is the header here.  It says:

"Off list"

This was a back channel email that somehow got misdirected to the list.
It wasn't meant to be a list topic, and it shouldn't be a list topic.

So maybe those who happened to overhear *somebody else's conversation*
ought to let it go.

Mike in Sacto
247510 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑04‑27 Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves.
Hey Max, getting paid $.10 an hour for recreation ain't a bad deal.
I think I know the pair of dividers you're talking about.  Nice and
heavy critter.  I have one I found in the bottom of an old tool chest
I picked up many years ago.  Love them.  Dividers are subtly addictive
tools.  Not to gloat too much, I actually have a 24 inch pair of
blacksmith made dividers.  And once I get my shop organized I'll look
around for the drawings and rubbings I made of the wooden dividers
James Marshall made and used in making the saw mill where gold was
discovered.

> If I could return to the question that spawned all of this, how much
> better does a stair (dado) saw work than ye olde backsaw (tenon saw,
> Geoff)? I used to think that I needed one, but I've been cutting a
> fair amount of stopped dados (not grooves) with a backsaw without
> incident.

Judging from the number of shop made antique stair (or dado) saws
around, they have an advantage over the back saw -- you know, the
motherhood of necessity and all that. I have one that very rarely
gets used (by Disston).  One advantage is that, mine at least, is
adjustable for depth of cut.  When it bottoms out, you're done.
One less thing to think about, and the less you have to think, the
fewer mistakes you make.  There's also better control since both
hands can be used.

Depending on the number and length of the dados to be made, the
stair saw might lose some of its advantage.  If you are making
dados for a staircase, though, duplicating the depth of cut
makes the stair saw a real champ.

Mike in Sacto
247511 Tom Dugan <tom_dugan@h...> 2014‑04‑27 RE: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves.
Max writes:
> If I could return to the question that spawned all of this, how much better
does a stair (dado) saw work than > ye olde backsaw (tenon saw, Geoff)? I used
to think that I needed one, but I've been cutting a fair amount of > stopped
dados (not grooves) with a backsaw without incident.

There's the tell right there. If you're already proficient and comfortable with
your technique, the only reason I see to change is to make it noticeably
speedier or cleaner. Or to acquire new tools.

> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8byIIIK7wx9LW9FNEdGU3RIUU0/edit?u
sp=docslist_api
>

I have a few pair of those dividers, and I think you'll like them. No harm in
keeping a couple pair in various toolboxes and over everyworkbench.

-T 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
247512 JAMES THOMPSON <oldmillrat@m...> 2014‑04‑27 Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves.
The picture shows a very well made pencil divider. I have 2 of them, one made by
Starrett, the other made by Tumico. Tumico sounds like a foreign name, but it's
an acronym for Tubular Micrometer Company. They make (made?) fine tools.

On Apr 27, 2014, at 3:50 AM, Michael Blair  wrote:

> Hey Max, getting paid $.10 an hour for recreation ain't a bad deal.
> I think I know the pair of dividers you're talking about.  Nice and
> heavy critter.  I have one I found in the bottom of an old tool chest
> I picked up many years ago.  Love them.  Dividers are subtly addictive
> tools.
247528 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2014‑04‑27 Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves.
Legend has it the Swedes have a saying.
   If you can't build it with an ax, you can't build it.

Cutting dadoes with a backsaw is perfectly legitimate. Cutting them with 
a Disston #7 is too and a clever guy can do that as well.
    Stairsaws are pretty sexy though, and not that hard to build. When 
you get around to it.
"Buying stuff only when you absolutely have to", its the best way.
Building for yourself is like nothing else, and a stairsaw is a fine 
project you will savor a long long time.

  Patience stings.
  In time you will be up to your neck in dividers and compasses of all 
kinds. They are not hard to find or expensive if you've got 1/2 a brain, 
and I know you do.
The waiting for it to start is not easy, sorry.

   But spring is almost here in the norther hemisphere, and the yard 
sales are a comin!
  The swap meet will be filled with hopeful sellers, their stuff spread 
out on old blankets. Ahhhhhhhhh can't you just smell it from here?

     The Galoot battle cry ringing out across our minds in the early 
morning
  Good tools cheap........ Good tools cheap.......
        yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.n
et/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcr
est.net/kitty/hpages/index.html



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247533 Maxwithers <maxwithers@g...> 2014‑04‑28 Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves.
On Apr 27, 2014, at 1:00 PM, scott grandstaff  wrote:
> 
> Legend has it the Swedes have a saying.
>  If you can't build it with an ax, you can't build it.
> 

A few months ago someone mentioned the movie Happy People, about fur trappers in
Siberia, which is on netflix, and watch it now if you haven't. These guys build
everything, from skis to houses with just a hatchet (I suspect there was some
chainsaw footage that got cut, but mostly just a hatchet anyway). A pretty good
lesson.

Anyway, I went back to the stair saw because it is an example of a tool I really
thought I needed at first, but turned out not to, yet. And yes I have realized
that it would be fun to make. It's on the list. The list is long.

Thanks,
Max in Austin
247545 paul womack <pwomack@p...> 2014‑04‑28 Re: Victory! Dividers. Stair saw. Dados not grooves.
Maxwithers wrote:

> Anyway, I went back to the stair saw because it is an example of a tool I
really thought I needed at first, but turned out not to, yet. And yes I have
realized that it would be fun to make. It's on the list. The list is long.

I think you said a whole bunch, right there.

Many jobs can be done with minimal/simple tools. But in many cases
specialised tools exist that make the jobs easier and/or faster.

Personally I find specialised tools quite fascinating, the more
specialised the better.

But they're very rarely *neccessary*.

But then, woodworking as a hobby isn't necessary either.

So I say that the Scandinavians working green wood
with nothing but an axe, and the sash window makers
with their assemblage of super specialised planes
and fixtures can get along fine.

We're all friends, at least here on the Porch.

    BugBear
247547 Brian Welch <brian.w.welch@g...> 2014‑04‑28 Re: Stair saws
On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Michael Blair wrote:

>
> With over 300 hours of research, we still cannot say what Russian cooper's
> tools looked like, nor what constituted a necessary set.  I could assemble
> an accurate set for Spanish, French, Portuguese, German, English and
> American coopers, but so far, nothing has shown up for Russian cooper's
> tools of the early 1800s.
>
>
Have you looked at "Woodworking in Estonia"?  (Which, along with  “The
Wheelwright’s Shop” and “With Hammer in Hand” are supposedly Roy
Underhill's three favorite woodworking books). Very hard to come by, but
worth tracking down. You might be able to get it through inter library loan
from a university library.  I had our library copy in my office but looks
like I returned it, but I am sure it has a section on coopering.  Just
looked it up again and saw a description that said it focuses on
woodworking on an island off the coast of Estonia which was basically in a
time warp, so did everything the old way. Geographic isolation has its
benefits.

Brian
247550 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2014‑04‑28 Re: Stair saws
Thanks for the pointer, Brian.  It may be the best bet.  Turns out that
the author, Aleksi︠e︡ĭ Aleksandrovich Bobrinskīĭ, was born in 1852, 
died
in 1927, and the book was published in 1910.  The dates indicate that
what he wrote ought to show the tools of the early period needed for
the research.

I've looked at some Estonian cooper's tools, and they seemed probable.

The Library of Congress has a copy or two, but I can't find any for
sale.  Might need to contact Underhill.  LOL.  I'm missing one of his
three favorite books.

Gratefully,

Mike in Sacto

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