Re:=A0232556=A0A gullet/tooth pattern

Brian,

Thanks for sharing your effort to clarify the fleam tooth profile
pictured in Holly ("The Art of Saw Filing", 1864).=A0

I also wondered about that illustration when I skimmed through the book,
but never did anything about it. Your pics definitely clear up any
questions left by Holly's drawing.

Holly states that this tooth profile is intended to be used with zero
set, on soft, clear woods. Looking at the bevels that form the point of
the tooth, it obviously is for soft woods.

Holly's illustration shows a long backsaw, i.e. a miter saw, which might
actually benefit from a=A0bi-directional (push & pull) cutting
action.=A0

Your fleam teeth certainly look to have long, deep gullets (at least in
the pics), though I won't guess if the gullet volume is greater than the
more common tooth profiles. Any plans to measure the gullets after you
refine the teeth a bit?=A0

Holly cautions that this profile be used only on quality steel. Looking
at the square corners of the gullets in his illustration, I can guess
that cracking and broken teeth might have been a problem from such sharp
corners.=A0

It also raises the question of whether the sharp gullets in all of
Holly's illustrations are accurate representations of the saws that
Holly filed or only an artifact of his drawing. That was another
unanswered question from my quick glance through his book. I honestly
don't know when taper saw files with larger corner radii started to
appear. Maybe Holly's files had sharper corners than files of the late
19th century? Maybe the corners are only a defect in the drawings.

Any plans yet to try out a fleam tooth saw in a miter box?

Tom Capellari

------------------------------------------------------------------------

To follow-up I did a few teeth in the 'fleam-tooth' pattern. I don't
think tha'ts the greatest name for it, so I propose sloped-peg tooth
or spear-tooth.

In case you're wondering about the shrubbery behind my vise:
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/portable_sharpening_rig.jpg

I can tell that I used more slope on this set, which made the bevels
weaker and left less surface to clear the kerf. In the future I'd use
less slope. The form of the teeth is better than the one I did
yesterday but I am still learning the 'feel' for this filing
technique.

Two shots of the file, the slope is probably slightly off from when I
was filing.
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/file_angle-1.jpg

It looks like there's a little fleam in this shot but there isn't:
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/file_angle-2.jpg

Shots of the teeth:
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/row_profile-1.jpg

http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/cu_teeth-1.jpg

This one is very informative:
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/cu_teeth-2.jpg

You can see towards the top of the photo the strange curving edge of
the gullets:
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/top.jpg

I did put this 1" or so section into some softwood and it cut
decently. It cuts less on each stroke that a normal filing, but cuts
equally on the backstroke. As Holly indicated, it could be useful for
a mitre-box saw. The thought of filing 300+ teeth this way isn't a
pleasant one. They are very hard to keep even in all three dimensions
and you're re-toothing too.

Brian J.M. Rytel
brian.rytel@g...

On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Brian Rytel <brian.rytel@g...> wrote:
> The original 10 ppi teeth were filed cross-cut without slope, 25~30
> deg. fleam, ~18-20 deg. rake. though the original filing is a bit
> inconsistent.
>
> While I always suspected the drawing to be a little off in respect to
> the tooth, I now understand that it is very close. The gullet between
> points is split or double-sided. This creates an odd edge in the
> gullet.
>
> As I mentioned, the filing was a little sloppy as I figured it out.
>
> Brian J.M. Rytel
> brian.rytel@g...
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Brent Beach <brent.beach@g...> wrote:
>> Brian
>>
>> Was the original saw filed with slightly sloping gullets?
>>
>> Got to admit that at first glance, the one tooth looks a bit like his
>> drawing. I am going to have to think about this to imagine exactly what you
>> did with this saw.
>>
>>
>> On 12-08-21 18:36, Brian Rytel wrote:
>>>
>>> Having seen the 'fleam-tooth' drawing on several websites and in the
>>> Art of Saw Filing, I wanted to figure out the filing pattern. See the
>>> bottom drawing in this section of Brent's site:
>>> http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/sawjig/sloping%20gullets.html#draw
>>>
>>> Getting a few minutes between other things, I threw a messed up saw
>>> (looks like it was hammered by a drunk) into the vise and attacked a
>>> couple teeth. Studying the drawing, I had developed a plan that would
>>> require two passes. However, I realized the drawing of the file and
>>> text indicated a different approach.
>>>
>>> The filing sequence is a bit more complicated than a usual saw. You
>>> file the front of the tooth as follows, then file the back as a mirror
>>> image. Follow on the reverse side offsetting one tooth as a usual
>>> filing. Basically the file is held with 0 rake, 0 fleam, and is held
>>> at roughly 30 deg. away from vertical (150 slope) when filing the
>>> front of the tooth.
>>>
>>> I did just the one tooth fully (a_side, in the middle) but it is
>>> definitely the pattern in Holly's drawing. It isn't a smashing filing
>>> job, so the lines are off.
>>> Images:
>>> http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/a_side_profile.jpg
>>>
>>> http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/a_side_3q.jpg
>>>
>>> http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/a_side-top.jpg
>>>
>>> http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/top_1.jpg
>>>
>>> http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/b_side_profile.jpg
>>>
>>> At some point I'll find a suitable bit of straight blade to test this
>>> filing on. It takes a lot of material removal to reshape the teeth to
>>> this extent. Now that I know the position and order of filing, I think
>>> I could have one done in 2-2.5x a normal cross-cut. It seems like it
>>> will dull quickly though.
>>>
>>> Brian J.M. Rytel
>>> brian.rytel@g...
>>> http://zengrain.com/blog/
>>
>>
>> Brent
>> --
>> Victoria, B.C., Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not to be facetious. but honestly, the most likely place you will find a
peg toothed pattern is on a saw that cuts shrubbery.  Pruning saws use
it.  The author Holly (another shrub --  now that was facetious)
suggests that tooth could be used on a miterbox saw, the peg shape is
useful for cutting on both push and pull strokes.  That's not really
useful in a miterbox.  I think Holly may have been misguided in that
advice.

Except for cutting tree limbs, I've never found a advantage to the peg
tooth.

-- 
Erik von Sneidern
www.disstonianinstitute.com

On Wed, 2012-08-22 at 19:23 -0700, Brian Rytel wrote:
> To follow-up I did a few teeth in the 'fleam-tooth' pattern. I don't
> think tha'ts the greatest name for it, so I propose sloped-peg tooth
> or spear-tooth.
> 
> In case you're wondering about the shrubbery behind my vise:
>
http://zengrain.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/portable_sharpening_rig.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with Erik.   The only saws that I have used that cut on both
forward and back stroke are pruning saws and some of the cheap modern saws
with the hardened teeth.   So far,  the only thing I've seen that they do
well is leave tear-out and splintering on both sides.   I don't want that.

Doc

John Holladay
docholladay0820@G...
(205) 229-8484
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dont' the big a$$ tree felling saws use these teeth too, tearout be damned?

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 10:59 AM, John Holladay
<docholladay0820@g...>wrote:

> I agree with Erik.   The only saws that I have used that cut on both
> forward and back stroke are pruning saws
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 23, 2012, at 11:04, Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> wrote:

> Dont' the big a$$ tree felling saws use these teeth too, tearout be damned?

I'm pretty sure that's where I've seen them. In fact, I think my dad has a
one-man version with only this type of tooth (though the teeth are a bit
off...my grandpa said it needed to be gummed out to be usable).

Adam
Port Angeles, WA

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Aug 23, 2012, at 11:04 AM, Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> wrote:
> Dont' the big a$$ tree felling saws use these teeth too, tearout
> be damned?

Exactly so. They are commonly referred to as crosscut saws, a term
easily conflated with the very different and much smaller panel saws or
handsaws filed for cutting across the grain. A good rundown, complete
with close-up illustration of the tooth-raker-gullet pattern of the
business edge, is here.
<http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/using_a_crosscut_saw>
Click on the illustration for a closeup. For the larger/longer two-man
version, this configuration has the advantage of efficiency: It cuts
equally in both directions, and both men do basically the same amount of
work. Even with shorter versions with a large, usually hornless gripping
handle on one end (and often holes at the tip where a handle can be
attached if you have two operators), used for bucking up rounds with the
saw held vertically, there is an advantage to cutting in both directions
in such rough work. Not what I would want in my miterbox or at the
sawbench in my woodworking shop. Tom Holloway
<http://furfortfunfacts.blogspot.com/>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Esteemed Galoots,

I read those comments a while ago about the virtues of a miter box saw
being filed in a peg tooth pattern and it made sense to me.=A0 You don't
pick up the saw from the wood on the back stroke when using a miter box,
so why not cut equally in both directions?=A0 I went ahead and filed a
saw like that and it seems to work just fine(though it needs freshened
up a little after using it for a number of years).=A0 I can't really say
it is noticeably better than filing it like a crosscut hand saw, but it
is not noticeably worse either.=A0 I've had a number of other miter
boxes go through my hands in the intervening years that I've tried and
none of them have been that much better that I wanted to take the time
to re-file the saw.

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.



________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't doubt it cuts in both directions, but it's not the cleanest cut.
Another consideration is the miterbox holds the board on the push
stroke.  During the pull stroke, it would need to be held either with a
clamp or the user's thumb.  The force on the pull stroke may be more
than you would want to hold if the saw were cutting.
-- 
Erik von Sneidern
www.disstonianinstitute.com

On Thu, 2012-08-23 at 12:06 -0700, Jim Crammond wrote:
> You don't pick up the saw from the wood on the back stroke when using
> a miter box, so why not cut equally in both directions? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Erik and Galoots,

In my experience, it's not the rake that determines the cleaness of the
cut, it's dependent on how even the set is.=A0 In this particular case,
there is very little set on this saw, all teeth are set evenly and there
are no burrs so the resultant cut looks polished.=A0 I haven't noticed
any problems holding the board either, because the rake is the same in
both directions, it isn't a very aggressive cut.

I'm not saying that this is the end all, be all filing for miter saws,
or that I would advise anyone to take the time to refile a saw this
way.=A0 I'm just saying that I tried it and it works ok.=A0

Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.





________________________________
 From: Erik von Sneidern <enrico62@f...>


I don't doubt it cuts in both directions, but it's not the cleanest cut.
Another consideration is the miterbox holds the board on the push
stroke.=A0 During the pull stroke, it would need to be held either with
a clamp or the user's thumb.=A0 The force on the pull stroke may be more
than you would want to hold if the saw were cutting.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------

ehem: "Can O' Tooth Patterns" ?

Doesn't have the same ring as can o' nibs....

Brian J.M. Rytel brian.rytel@g...

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Jim Crammond <jicaarr@y...> wrote:
> Erik and Galoots,
>
> In my experience, it's not the rake that determines the cleaness of
> the cut, it's dependent on how even the set is. In this particular
> case, there is very little set on this saw, all teeth are set evenly
> and there are no burrs so the resultant cut looks polished. I haven't
> noticed any problems holding the board either, because the rake is the
> same in both directions, it isn't a very aggressive cut.
>
> I'm not saying that this is the end all, be all filing for miter saws,
> or that I would advise anyone to take the time to refile a saw this
> way. I'm just saying that I tried it and it works ok.
>
> Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Erik von Sneidern <enrico62@f...>
>
>
> I don't doubt it cuts in both directions, but it's not the cleanest
> cut. Another consideration is the miterbox holds the board on the push
> stroke. During the pull stroke, it would need to be held either with a
> clamp or the user's thumb. The force on the pull stroke may be more
> than you would want to hold if the saw were cutting.
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Jim

On 12-08-23 14:04, Jim Crammond wrote:
> In my experience, it's not the rake that determines the cleaness of
> the cut, it's dependent on how even the set is.

Correct, of course.

> I'm not saying that this is the end all, be all filing for miter
> saws, or that I would advise anyone to take the time to refile a saw
> this way.  I'm just saying that I tried it and it works ok.

Do you have pictures of your saw teeth?

Did you file it the same way Brian did? If not, can you provide details.

> Jim Crammond in Monroe, Mi.

Brent
-- 
Victoria, B.C., Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------