GGs,

I'm another who's taken a long leave from the topside of the porch, and
I hate to come back with a question (actually, 2) rather than a
contribution, but here I am.

I'm trying to identify the finish on our cabinetry and some other
woodwork in prep for making repairs.  Alcohol seems to soften the finish
a bit, making it slightly tacky but not dissolving it.  Scrubbing with
an acetone-dampened rag takes it off, and drops of acetone on the
surface bubbles the finish slightly before the acetone evaporates.
Looking back here:

http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=81071&submit_thread=1#message

which gives some info from one of Bob Flexner's book, I think I have
lacquer, but do these tests rule out polyurethane?  I've seen mixed info
on the web regarding the effects of acetone on poly, but I think the
softening in alcohol wouldn't happen with poly.

If lacquer, my understanding is that new lacquer over old lacquer is OK.
Has anyone had any experience using brushing lacquer (e.g. Deft Clear
Wood Finish) over an existing lacquer finish?  I've read that leveling
can be a problem compared to spraying, but if you've encountered any
other gotcha's, I'd appreciate hearing about them.

Thanks in advance.  We're in the midst of preparing for a likely
relocation, but once that's over, I hope I'll be able to come join the fun
a bit more often.

Regards,

Norm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 4/21/2012 11:12 AM, Norm Wood wrote:
> GGs,
>
> I'm another who's taken a long leave from the topside of the porch, and
> I hate to come back with a question (actually, 2) rather than a
> contribution, but here I am.
>
> I'm trying to identify the finish on our cabinetry and some other
> woodwork in prep for making repairs.  Alcohol seems to soften the finish
> a bit, making it slightly tacky but not dissolving it.  Scrubbing with
> an acetone-dampened rag takes it off, and drops of acetone on the
> surface bubbles the finish slightly before the acetone evaporates.
> Looking back here:
>
>
http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=81071&submit_thread=1#message
>
> which gives some info from one of Bob Flexner's book, I think I have
> lacquer, but do these tests rule out polyurethane?  I've seen mixed info
> on the web regarding the effects of acetone on poly, but I think the
> softening in alcohol wouldn't happen with poly.
>
> If lacquer, my understanding is that new lacquer over old lacquer is OK.
> Has anyone had any experience using brushing lacquer (e.g. Deft Clear
> Wood Finish) over an existing lacquer finish?  I've read that leveling
> can be a problem compared to spraying, but if you've encountered any
> other gotcha's, I'd appreciate hearing about them.
>
> Thanks in advance.  We're in the midst of preparing for a likely
> relocation, but once that's over, I hope I'll be able to come join the fun
> a bit more often.
>
> Regards,
>
> Norm
Sounds like lacquer alright. I haven't used the Deft product but it 
should do you fine. The main thing with lacquer (apart from excellent 
ventilation and no fires burning) is you have to be quick, then leave it 
alone to dry. Follow mfr's instructions, especially where it says 'light 
coats'. Practice somewhere it doesn't matter. Find out how much you need 
to thin it in order to keep it under control. Bonus with lacquer is if 
you mess up, it comes back off easily! FWIW
Don

-- 
I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, 
cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Don---
  Sounds like fun, where do you start?
 ----I haven't done it, by my Dad and Grandfather did, brush lacquer, and they
had a brushing solution that took a pretty long time to dry---it worked pretty
much like shellac.
  The main problem was dust getting on, bugs landing on, little gam 'testing'
for dry, the usual varnish probs.
  I know industrial spraypainters who use slow thinners---I'm sure there's a way
to make the stuff as slow as you'd like it to be.  I *do* like lacquer, properly
done, but I've been anti-lacquer for so long on account of contemporary guys and
their work. They use stuff that dries almost instantly, often before it arrives
at the target. Modern commercial lacquered cabinets looks pretty bad generally,
and just OK at best, IMHO.
  Stuff my Grandfather did 70 and 80 years ago looks great today. He used  paste
floor wax on top, btw.
                 keep in touch---gam in OlyWA
  

If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill

--- On Sat, 4/21/12, Don Schwartz <dkschwar@t...> wrote:

 Norm
> Sounds like lacquer alright. I haven't used the Deft product
> but it 
> should do you fine. The main thing with lacquer (apart from
> excellent 
> ventilation and no fires burning) is you have to be quick,
> then leave it 
> alone to dry. Follow mfr's instructions, especially where it
> says 'light 
> coats'. Practice somewhere it doesn't matter. Find out how
> much you need 
> to thin it in order to keep it under control. Bonus with
> lacquer is if 
> you mess up, it comes back off easily! FWIW
> Don
> 
> -- 
> I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I
> don't know how, 
> cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand
> tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the
> history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and
> restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 4/21/2012 11:06 AM, scott grandstaff wrote:
> Norm
> I am still "on the fence".
> Its not poly though.
> I don't think real laq is softened by alcohol either?
> So its probably shellac.
>
> Deft brushing lacquer is not lacquer! I don't know what it is, really. I
> suspect automotive clear coat (acrylic enamel??) or similar.
> But its no particle of traditional nitrocellulose laq, as in musical
> instruments, whatever it is.
>
> Open the deft and open a can of laq and your nose will surely know!
>
> Both shellac and laq are naturals for repair, since either bonds to the
> previous coats of itself, as if it was one.
>
> Its a little odd. You eyedropper or brush drop into the offending chasm,
> then when set, sand off 80% of what you deposited
> (it makes a wrinkly doughnut of finish all around the edge, most
> irritatingly I might add)
> taking wild care with the surface just adjacent.
>
> Then again. Sometimes 3 times to totally fill if the finish is deep.
>
> Pretty soon you can polish it back out bright and never know it was
> there at all.
>
> I wasn't able to do this the first time, without trouble.
> That's ok, there are always more coats possible.
> yours Scott
>

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 4/21/2012 3:02 PM, gary may wrote:
> Hi Don---
>    Sounds like fun, where do you start?
>   ----I haven't done it, by my Dad and Grandfather did, brush lacquer, and
they had a brushing solution that took a pretty long time to dry---it worked
pretty much like shellac.
>    The main problem was dust getting on, bugs landing on, little gam 'testing'
for dry, the usual varnish probs.
>    I know industrial spraypainters who use slow thinners---I'm sure there's a
way to make the stuff as slow as you'd like it to be.  I *do* like lacquer,
properly done, but I've been anti-lacquer for so long on account of contemporary
guys and their work. They use stuff that dries almost instantly, often before it
arrives at the target. Modern commercial lacquered cabinets looks pretty bad
generally, and just OK at best, IMHO.
>    Stuff my Grandfather did 70 and 80 years ago looks great today. He used 
paste floor wax on top, btw.
>                   keep in touch---gam in OlyWA
>
>
> If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill
>
>
> --- On Sat, 4/21/12, Don Schwartz<dkschwar@t...>  wrote:
>
>   Norm
>> Sounds like lacquer alright. I haven't used the Deft product
>> but it
>> should do you fine. The main thing with lacquer (apart from
>> excellent
>> ventilation and no fires burning) is you have to be quick,
>> then leave it
>> alone to dry. Follow mfr's instructions, especially where it
>> says 'light
>> coats'. Practice somewhere it doesn't matter. Find out how
>> much you need
>> to thin it in order to keep it under control. Bonus with
>> lacquer is if
>> you mess up, it comes back off easily! FWIW
>> Don
>>
>>
I see the Deft products are available at LV, and would take that as a 
product endorsement, considering their generous returns policy. Given 
the choice, I would choose the gloss product, and rub down my final coat 
to the desired gleam. Then maybe wax.

I have used the Minwax product line. I've never bothered with the 
sanding sealer, as I hate sanding ;-). There might be times when you 
want it, but I haven't run into that. I prefer to multicoat the same 
product instead. As with shellac, you have to learn to move quickly and 
confidently with a brush more or less full of the stuff. I takes some 
practice. Use your best brush, no foamies! Stir, don't shake the can. I 
use generic lacquer thinner, never straight acetone, if I wish to thin it.

They say you don't have to sand between coats which is true. Except if 
you get dust nibs, hair, brush or critter tracks, etc . After that, wipe 
down with mineral spirits (twice, with clean rags both times!) and wait 
for that to dry before re-coating. Brushing lacquer does dry very 
quickly (at least here in Calgary it does) but I still wait overnight 
before re-coating,  being in no hurry to finish ;-)
Stop re-coating when you think it's had enough.

Don

-- 
I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, 
cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 4/21/2012 4:03 PM, scott grandstaff wrote:
> On 4/21/2012 11:06 AM, scott grandstaff wrote:
>> Norm
>> I am still "on the fence".
>> Its not poly though.
>> I don't think real laq is softened by alcohol either?
>> So its probably shellac.
>>
>> Deft brushing lacquer is not lacquer! I don't know what it is, really. I
>> suspect automotive clear coat (acrylic enamel??) or similar.
>> But its no particle of traditional nitrocellulose laq, as in musical
>> instruments, whatever it is.
>>
>> Open the deft and open a can of laq and your nose will surely know!
>>
>> Both shellac and laq are naturals for repair, since either bonds to the
>> previous coats of itself, as if it was one.
>>
>> Its a little odd. You eyedropper or brush drop into the offending chasm,
>> then when set, sand off 80% of what you deposited
>> (it makes a wrinkly doughnut of finish all around the edge, most
>> irritatingly I might add)
>> taking wild care with the surface just adjacent.
>>
>> Then again. Sometimes 3 times to totally fill if the finish is deep.
>>
>> Pretty soon you can polish it back out bright and never know it was
>> there at all.
>>
>> I wasn't able to do this the first time, without trouble.
>> That's ok, there are always more coats possible.
>> yours Scott
>>
>
>
Scott:
Interesting observations. I like the eyedropper trick!

I suspect the mfrs are all changing formulas to make their products more 
compliant with environmental & health regulations. LEED and all that. 
But Deft still recommends using lacquer thinners for clean-up, FWIW. I'm 
no chemist, but I had a quick look at the MSDS info for the Deft & 
Minwax products and they do seem rather different. In particular, the 
Deft lists nitrocellulose, whereas the Minwax doesn't. Conversely, the 
Minwax contains Acetone, and the Deft does not. Maybe it's the acetone 
you're missing in the Deft?
Don, looking for excuses to avoid doing taxes...
-- 
I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, 
cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards
------------------------------------------------------------------------

> But Deft still recommends using lacquer thinners for clean-up,

All of the acrylic enamel car paints, and their relatives, use laq 
thinner for cleanup.
If you use laquer thinner to actually thin it though, it will dry as 
flat as the street.  No gloss at all. I have made this mistake, doh!

   Use enamel reducer if you want it shiny. This comes fast, med and 
slow btw.
  Plus there are other additives in the industry like hardener, retarder 
and super gloss etc.

  I have a partial gallon of traditional nitrocellulose lacquer I dole 
out miserly. (I'll open the can for mere seconds, dip out a 1/2 or 1/4 
pint, drip in a bit of thinner, and then slap the lid back down! 
Thoroughly tapping all around twice with a rubber mallet, and then 
flipping upside down for a few seconds to make sure the underside of the 
lid is coated.)

   I've also got plenty of Deft, since its so easy to get.
   Most definitely -not- the same stuff. Not at all.

  I haven't tried Minwax yet, but I still suspect its another acrylic 
enamel relative.
  Auto acrylic enamel clear coat, the professional stuff, you can get 
under $30 a gallon most places.
  Actual colored paint costs 3 or even 6 times more than that now, which 
is why all cars are clear coated these days.
   Its down to a whisp of paint, and coats of clear on top, in the 
autobody world.

  Traditional lacquer from the instrument supply, costs around $100 a 
gallon.

   This is why I expect most things sold as lacquer, especially at any 
big box warehouse store,  will be clear coat,  in drag.
     yours again Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Don, Scott, Gary,

I'm sorry I "posted and ran", but the weekend got eaten up with overdue
landscape work, drywall repairs, and painting.  I snuck away for a
little while and came back to find a gold mine of info.  You guys are
great!

Now I'm all curious about just what _should_be in a can of lacquer.  My
cabinets aren't deserving of the really good stuff Scott described, but
I'll take a close look at the ingredients before I buy my supplies.
I definitely don't want to end up with some plasticky meass peeling off
the old finish.

So it sounds like I'll need to build up some areas of missing finish
(Scott's eydropper technique, sounds easier said than done), then go
over with some full coats.

Don, what do you use for rubbing out the final coat?  Fine steel wool?
I imagine using a gloss lacquer will give a harder finish, but I'll
probably try to knock it back to a semi-gloss.

Thanks, guys, this sounds do-able.  I'll make some trial runs the next
couple of days.

Best,

Norm

On 21 Apr., Don Schwartz wrote:
> 
> On 4/21/2012 3:02 PM, gary may wrote:
> >Hi Don---
> >   Sounds like fun, where do you start?
> >  ----I haven't done it, by my Dad and Grandfather did, brush lacquer, and
they had a brushing solution that took a pretty long time to dry---it worked
pretty much like shellac.
> >   The main problem was dust getting on, bugs landing on, little gam
'testing' for dry, the usual varnish probs.
> >   I know industrial spraypainters who use slow thinners---I'm sure there's a
way to make the stuff as slow as you'd like it to be.  I *do* like lacquer,
properly done, but I've been anti-lacquer for so long on account of contemporary
guys and their work. They use stuff that dries almost instantly, often before it
arrives at the target. Modern commercial lacquered cabinets looks pretty bad
generally, and just OK at best, IMHO.
> >   Stuff my Grandfather did 70 and 80 years ago looks great today. He used 
paste floor wax on top, btw.
> >                  keep in touch---gam in OlyWA
> >
> >
> >If you were Einstein's father, we wouldn't have the bomb." Peggy Hill
> >
> >
> >--- On Sat, 4/21/12, Don Schwartz<dkschwar@t...>  wrote:
> >
> >  Norm
> >>Sounds like lacquer alright. I haven't used the Deft product
> >>but it
> >>should do you fine. The main thing with lacquer (apart from
> >>excellent
> >>ventilation and no fires burning) is you have to be quick,
> >>then leave it
> >>alone to dry. Follow mfr's instructions, especially where it
> >>says 'light
> >>coats'. Practice somewhere it doesn't matter. Find out how
> >>much you need
> >>to thin it in order to keep it under control. Bonus with
> >>lacquer is if
> >>you mess up, it comes back off easily! FWIW
> >>Don
> >>
> >>
> I see the Deft products are available at LV, and would take that as
> a product endorsement, considering their generous returns policy.
> Given the choice, I would choose the gloss product, and rub down my
> final coat to the desired gleam. Then maybe wax.
> 
> I have used the Minwax product line. I've never bothered with the
> sanding sealer, as I hate sanding ;-). There might be times when you
> want it, but I haven't run into that. I prefer to multicoat the same
> product instead. As with shellac, you have to learn to move quickly
> and confidently with a brush more or less full of the stuff. I takes
> some practice. Use your best brush, no foamies! Stir, don't shake
> the can. I use generic lacquer thinner, never straight acetone, if I
> wish to thin it.
> 
> They say you don't have to sand between coats which is true. Except
> if you get dust nibs, hair, brush or critter tracks, etc . After
> that, wipe down with mineral spirits (twice, with clean rags both
> times!) and wait for that to dry before re-coating. Brushing lacquer
> does dry very quickly (at least here in Calgary it does) but I still
> wait overnight before re-coating,  being in no hurry to finish ;-)
> Stop re-coating when you think it's had enough.
> 
> Don
> 
> -- 
> I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know
> how, cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://swingleydev.com/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 4/22/2012 9:51 PM, Norm Wood wrote:
> Hi Don, Scott, Gary,
>
> I'm sorry I "posted and ran", but the weekend got eaten up with overdue
> landscape work, drywall repairs, and painting.  I snuck away for a
> little while and came back to find a gold mine of info.  You guys are
> great!
>
> Now I'm all curious about just what _should_be in a can of lacquer.  My
> cabinets aren't deserving of the really good stuff Scott described, but
> I'll take a close look at the ingredients before I buy my supplies.
> I definitely don't want to end up with some plasticky meass peeling off
> the old finish.
>
> So it sounds like I'll need to build up some areas of missing finish
> (Scott's eydropper technique, sounds easier said than done), then go
> over with some full coats.
>
> Don, what do you use for rubbing out the final coat?  Fine steel wool?
> I imagine using a gloss lacquer will give a harder finish, but I'll
> probably try to knock it back to a semi-gloss.
>
> Thanks, guys, this sounds do-able.  I'll make some trial runs the next
> couple of days.
>
> Best,
>
> Norm
>
If you've built up  a good thickness, you can sand with 600x or finer 
(preferably wetted) backed by felt or cork, to remove any nastiness 
without worrying about cutting through layers. Just be careful on the 
edges. After that, wash off , dry & switch to steel wool 000 or 0000.
Don
-- 
I have tried too in my time, to be a philosopher; but I don't know how, 
cheerfulness was always breaking in. - Oliver Edwards
------------------------------------------------------------------------