SNIP

> Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
> I would love to know what these table saws were used for.
> 

END SNIP

Bill:

Aren't they a set of compass saws for varying radii?  I have a very old
Disston compass saw that looks VERY much like the thinner of the three.

Joe

------------------------------------------------------------------------

SNIP

Joe,

I made a 30" round top table several years ago and tried my table saw  
for the curve. At that radius it was barely effective and I found that  
my bow saw made much easier work so finished w/ that. If for varying  
radii, how does one know what width of blade is for what radius? Mine  
looks most like Peter's middle saw.

Bill

END SNIP

+++++++++

Bill:

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know, either.  The compass saw idea is just a
guess based on the thinnest of the three, which almost certainly IS a
compass saw.  I don't know anything about the others -- but tradesmen who
owned them first certainly knew how and what to use them for.  More
tantalizing glimpses of the lost knowledge of the Galoots!  Perhaps it could
replace n*bs as a topic for speculation?

Joe

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter,

Pretty little handles. I have heard speculation that the "table"  
referred to is the flat portion of a scarf joint in large ships  
timbers or timber framing. After the joint is cut in say a 8 x 14  
timber and the two pieces are mated, you usually have to kerf in the  
joint for a final fit. The speculation was that this is the job these  
saws were designed to do. I offer this w/ no actual experience, just  
recalling a long ago conversation. That narrow a use has always seemed  
to be a bit of over specialization to me.

Bill

On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:54 AM, Peter McBride wrote:

> Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
> I would love to know what these table saws were used for.
> I've seen them described in Hack's book and he wasn't certain either.
> Never seen saws like these in person, only in pictures and books.
>
>
> www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws.jpg
> www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws1.jpg
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe,

I made a 30" round top table several years ago and tried my table saw  
for the curve. At that radius it was barely effective and I found that  
my bow saw made much easier work so finished w/ that. If for varying  
radii, how does one know what width of blade is for what radius? Mine  
looks most like Peter's middle saw.

Bill

On Jul 17, 2009, at 10:34 AM, Joseph Sullivan wrote:

> SNIP
>
>> Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
>> I would love to know what these table saws were used for.
>>
>
> END SNIP
>
> Bill:
>
> Aren't they a set of compass saws for varying radii?  I have a very  
> old
> Disston compass saw that looks VERY much like the thinner of the  
> three.
>
> Joe
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's the first time I've heard that explanation=2C but it seems to
make the most sense to me. You'd need a huge kerf in order to cut any
kind of radius if used on furniture-type tables. And given that scarfs
are ALL OVER wooden ships leads me to believe that your concern about
over-specialization is unfounded.

A related question: Has anyone seen evidence that larger planking (say
2" or thicker) had been scarfed rather than butted? In my limited
reading I have not=2C but the amount of scarfed timbers in the frames
alone would make this a useful tool.

-T

> From: bghio@b... To: peter@p... Subject: Re: [OldTools] Ray G... I
> need your help with Hand - table saws Date: Fri=2C 17 Jul 2009
> 10:26:52 -0400
> CC: oldtools@r...
>> Peter=2C Pretty little handles. I have heard speculation that the
>> "table" > referred to is the flat portion of a scarf joint in large
>> ships > timbers or timber framing. After the joint is cut in say a 8
>> x 14 > timber and the two pieces are mated=2C you usually have to
>> kerf in the > joint for a final fit. The speculation was that this
>> is the job these > saws were designed to do. I offer this w/ no
>> actual experience=2C just > recalling a long ago conversation. That
>> narrow a use has always seemed > to be a bit of over specialization
>> to me. Bill
>
_________________________________________________________________
Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that=92s right for you. http://www.mi
crosoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290---------
---------------------------------------------------------------

Peter

Funny you should ask. I was putting together a blog post on the Table  
Saw when I spotted the topic in todays list. I think I have an answer,  
although I have yet to find solid proof in existing literature. What  
do you think...

http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/toolemera/2009/07/table-saw-solved.html

Gary
...............................
Gary Roberts
http://shop.toolemera.com
http://toolemera.com
http://toolemerablog.typepad.com

"I'ld rather read a good book, than write a poor one." Christopher  
Morley

On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:54 AM, Peter McBride wrote:

Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
I would love to know what these table saws were used for.
I've seen them described in Hack's book and he wasn't certain either.
Never seen saws like these in person, only in pictures and books.

Ray,  I went for a wonder around the famous Tyabb antique center this
afternoon...needed a break away from the big smoke.
Now I'm bringing home saws as well as planes...have a I done good?
they were desperately cheap, and looked VERY OLD???

www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws.jpg
www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws1.jpg

Top to bottom
stamped on the blade
J Beardshaw & Sons
Sheffield
cast steel
Also on the medallion
perhaps made around 1820's - 40's

Next
stamped on the blade
M Hunter & Son
( a horn devise logo )
cast steel  Talbot Works warranted
Sheffield
Perhaps from 1821???

next the keyhole saw stamped on the blade just...
__Morey__
Information from Goodman
Sawmaker London 1840

Can any other galoots add some more info...I think I've found a few
treasures??

Regards,
Peter
In Melbourne, Australia.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter asks about table saws:
> Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
> I would love to know what these table saws were used for.
> I've seen them described in Hack's book and he wasn't certain either.
> Never seen saws like these in person, only in pictures and books.
>
>   
and the suggestion that they are for the tables of scarf joints comes in.

Perhaps I can add that scarfs are not only boat builders joints.   They 
figure in huge dimensions and amazingly complex configurations for the 
structural timbers of houses.  Places like Lavenham are riddled with 
them.   It is simple to imagine a large joint - almost assembled - held 
open with a couple of laths, whilst a saw is passed down the joint to 
make the mating surfaces flat and parallel. I'd always supposed that 
they were chiseled and routed flat and matching, but how much simpler to 
run a saw down the joint.

Aztecs may have done the same thing to get their rocks to fit..

Richard Wilson
in Northumberland
thinking I really *must* look out my copy of medieval joints which is 
*somewhere* in a box..

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
I would love to know what these table saws were used for.
I've seen them described in Hack's book and he wasn't certain either.
Never seen saws like these in person, only in pictures and books.

Ray,  I went for a wonder around the famous Tyabb antique center this
afternoon...needed a break away from the big smoke.
Now I'm bringing home saws as well as planes...have a I done good?
they were desperately cheap, and looked VERY OLD???

www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws.jpg
www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws1.jpg

Top to bottom
stamped on the blade
J Beardshaw & Sons
Sheffield
cast steel
Also on the medallion
perhaps made around 1820's - 40's

Next
stamped on the blade
M Hunter & Son
( a horn devise logo )
cast steel  Talbot Works warranted
Sheffield
Perhaps from 1821???

next the keyhole saw stamped on the blade just...
__Morey__
Information from Goodman
Sawmaker London 1840

Can any other galoots add some more info...I think I've found a few
treasures??

Regards,
Peter
In Melbourne, Australia.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:57:41 +0100
 Richard Wilson  wrote:
> Peter asks about table saws:
> > Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
> > I would love to know what these table saws were used
> for.

GG

I looked it up in Salaman's and here is the gist of a long
description:

tapering narrow blade, open handle, 12-26" long, 7-8 teeth
per inch,  SOME DESIGNED FOR PULL STROKE!!!

in later times - largest blade in a nest  (Marples in 1965
had this)

Holtzappfel "intended for cutting sweeps of long radius"

Has not come across this saw in ship work, and no
convincing description has come along (as of 1975).
 Conjecture about cutting out table tops seems unreasonable
as shops would have a Bow Saw.

Plausible theory is for trueing the tabling of scarf joints
in beams and girders.  A narrow tapering saw used in the
pull stroke would be an advantage. This may be why tool
dropped out of use about 1920 as this type of construction
was replaced with reinforced concrete and steelwork

Seems to this humble part time shipbuilders that if it
worked for the scarfs of beams and girders, it would work
for the scarfs of ship construction - I had best get one of
these!

Ed Minch

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
http://www.nni.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Peter, How goes the HTPAA tool show? I was hoping to make it down
this time, but I fear other commitments are going to beat me again.

I subscribe to the view that table saws are not for cutting table tops
but something else... I like Gary's theory, Tyabb would be a good place
for boat building..

Taking the Morey first,

Don's excellent book has two Morey sawmaking firms, possibly
sequential (still hoping for a second edition... hint) 1840 - 1855
William Horlock Morey 22 Old Street St Lukes 1861 - 1872 George Morey
84 Old Street St Lukes.

Simon's list ( again, I think it's likely these are sequential ) 1834 -
1852 George Morey 1855 - 1860 Ephriam Morey 1865 - 1879 George Morey

So for a rough date I think mid 19th Cent would be a good description.

The Hunter,

Michael Hunter ( & Son Ltd) 1855-1879 Michael Hunter & Son Andrew St
Talbot Works 1870-1909 Michael Hunter (Jr?) Saville St Talbot Works
Stamped marks, are almost always earlier than etched marks, so I think
we can say it's date is likely to be early in the second half of the
19th Cent.

Beardshaw, One of the longer running Sheffield firms, they still in
business up until 1961 at the Effingham Road, Baltic Steel Works,

1825-1895 Beardshaw & Son Ltd Jonathan (numerous addresses) Being a
stamped blade, rather than etched, would put the date into the first
half of the 19th Cent, especially for a larger firm like Jonathan
Beardshaw. No one has ever done a detailed study on dating Sheffield saw
medallions (so far as I know), but that might be the way forward for
dating saws from these longer running firms.

I would say that first half of the 19th Cent would be a reasonable
estimate for date.

So, in one day's shopping, I would say you've picked up 3 saws, all are
around 150+ years old, and look to be in pretty good (original)
condition.

Beware, this is a very slippery slope you are standing at the top of :-)

Nice finds, Regards Ray

> Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks... I would love to know what these
> table saws were used for. I've seen them described in Hack's book and
> he wasn't certain either. Never seen saws like these in person, only
> in pictures and books.
>
> Ray, I went for a wonder around the famous Tyabb antique center this
> afternoon...needed a break away from the big smoke. Now I'm bringing
> home saws as well as planes...have a I done good? they were
> desperately cheap, and looked VERY OLD???
>
> www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws.jpg
> www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws1.jpg
>
> Top to bottom stamped on the blade J Beardshaw & Sons Sheffield cast
> steel Also on the medallion perhaps made around 1820's - 40's
>
> Next stamped on the blade M Hunter & Son ( a horn devise logo ) cast
> steel Talbot Works warranted Sheffield Perhaps from 1821???
>
> next the keyhole saw stamped on the blade just... __Morey__
> Information from Goodman Sawmaker London 1840
>
> Can any other galoots add some more info...I think I've found a few
> treasures??
>
> Regards, Peter In Melbourne, Australia.
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This table saw question leads me to ask for a comparison to the "ship 
saw" offered by Disston and others. Is the ship saw a renamed "table 
saw". The Disstonian institute says they were for cutting curves in 
ships but the scarfing/kerfing makes some sense. This is actually a 
fairly common practice in all forms of carpentry for final fitting, I 
saw my father do it when needed on many projects. Many carpenters 
carried a well worn old saw with a narrow tip for a reason.
Mike

ruby@m... wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:57:41 +0100
>  Richard Wilson  wrote:
>   
>> Peter asks about table saws:
>>     
>>> Ray, and other Sheffield saw freaks...
>>> I would love to know what these table saws were used
>>>       
>> for.
>>     
>
>
> GG
>
> I looked it up in Salaman's and here is the gist of a long
> description:
>
>
> tapering narrow blade, open handle, 12-26" long, 7-8 teeth
> per inch,  SOME DESIGNED FOR PULL STROKE!!!
>
> in later times - largest blade in a nest  (Marples in 1965
> had this)
>
> Holtzappfel "intended for cutting sweeps of long radius"
>
> Has not come across this saw in ship work, and no
> convincing description has come along (as of 1975).
>  Conjecture about cutting out table tops seems unreasonable
> as shops would have a Bow Saw.
>
> Plausible theory is for trueing the tabling of scarf joints
> in beams and girders.  A narrow tapering saw used in the
> pull stroke would be an advantage. This may be why tool
> dropped out of use about 1920 as this type of construction
> was replaced with reinforced concrete and steelwork
>
>
>
> Seems to this humble part time shipbuilders that if it
> worked for the scarfs of beams and girders, it would work
> for the scarfs of ship construction - I had best get one of
> these!
>
> Ed Minch
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider.
> http://www.nni.com/
>
>
>   
------------------------------------------------------------------------

G'day Ray, Gary, Bill, Richard, Mike and Ed
Thanks for all your help with the saws.
An interesting note I found this morning in Mathieson 1899 catalogue
is that a compass saw is called "compass or port saw"
If by port they mean port hole, that would add some strength to the
notion that these three may have been in boat building hands.
Ray, like you I'm attracted to Gary's theory also.
Regards,
Peter
In Melbourne, Australia...recovering form the selling a large slice of
my Stanley collection over the weekend at the HTPAA sale.
Although I did find a lovely watch / clockmakers drill press. Made
with an 8mm collet WW lathe style headstock, and a 3 inch dia. table
that is raised with a lever...for VERY little money.

______________________
> www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws.jpg
> www.petermcbride.com/temp/images/table_saws1.jpg
> Regards,
> Peter
> In Melbourne, Australia
-------------------------------
Hi Peter,
How goes the HTPAA tool show?  I was hoping to make it down this time,
but I fear other commitments are going to beat me again.

I subscribe to the view that table saws are not for cutting table tops
but something else... I like Gary's theory, Tyabb would be a good
place for boat building..

Taking the Morey first,

Don's excellent book has two Morey sawmaking firms, possibly
sequential
(still hoping for a second edition... hint)
1840 - 1855 William Horlock Morey  22 Old Street St Lukes
1861 - 1872 George Morey 84 Old Street St Lukes.

Simon's list  ( again, I think it's likely these are sequential )
1834 - 1852 George Morey
1855 - 1860 Ephriam Morey
1865 - 1879 George Morey

So for a rough date I think mid 19th Cent would be a good description.

The Hunter,

Michael Hunter ( & Son Ltd)
1855-1879 Michael Hunter & Son Andrew St Talbot Works
1870-1909 Michael Hunter (Jr?) Saville St Talbot Works
Stamped marks, are almost always earlier than etched marks, so I think
we can say it's date is likely to be early in the second half of the
19th
Cent.

Beardshaw,
One of the longer running Sheffield firms, they still in business up
until
1961 at the Effingham Road, Baltic Steel Works,

1825-1895 Beardshaw & Son Ltd Jonathan (numerous addresses)
Being a stamped blade, rather than etched, would put the date into
the first half of the 19th Cent, especially for a larger firm like
Jonathan Beardshaw. No one has ever done a detailed study on dating
Sheffield saw medallions (so far as I know), but that might be the
way forward for dating saws from these longer running firms.

I would say that first half of the 19th Cent would be a reasonable
estimate for date.

So, in one day's shopping, I would say you've picked up 3 saws, all
are
around 150+ years old, and look to be in pretty good (original)
condition.

Beware, this is a very slippery slope you are standing at the top of
:-)

Nice finds,
Regards
Ray

------------------------------------------------------------------------