Getting off my imaginary high horse and back to the real world of auctions:
	I've suffered through a lot of bad auctioneering, and seen what I
thought was unethical practice, although I can't claim to have been the
victim myself, in any major way. (Then again, victims of the con are
notoriously reluctant to admit that they were taken in ;-)
	For me the worst auctions are like others have mentioned, when the
auctioneer is in a foul mood and takes it out on the crowd--bad scene all
around.  Another bummer is the slow and clueless bid caller, who doesn't
know or care what he's selling, but will flog a piece of carnival glass way
past the point when anyone's bidding, wasting everyone's time.  For hours
on end. The way to get the crowd's attention is not to stop and berate them
for not paying attention.  It is to SELL the stuff, quick and lively.  When
people see they are going to loose the item if they don't get in, they'll
bid.
	One scam I've seen in real life, but not on this thread, is the
"reserved bidder's number," or whatever the name for it might be.  The
auctioneer has one or two numbers, picked apparently at random from the
sequence, that are "house" numbers.  If he's taking phantom bids to pump up
a real bidder, and the latter drops out, the auctioneer, without skipping a
beat, says "sold, to #36" --or whatever the prearranged # might be.  It's
really a "no sale", but that's better than being publically exposed for
selling to the back wall, as it were.
	The same device can be used to avoid the *seller's* pain at having
to let the Chelor go for $8 because the sale has been billed as "absolute"
ie, everything goes to the highest bidder.  If it looks like an item is
about to go for way less than the auctioneer thinks it's worth, he can sell
it to #36 (or whatever) and save it for a better day.  This is easier to do
in the setup where the goods go back into a checkout area rather than being
delivered immediately to the buyer.  The latter is the standard procedure
in most small time dispersals and such in the Greater PRINY region.
	Like some other scams, these can only work in the right conditions
(the bigger the crowd the more potential for abuse), and can't be used too
often, or someone is gonna get wise...
		Tom Holloway,
who always tries to see who he's supposedly bidding against, and that the
merchandise gets delivered.

Tom Holloway wrote:

>         One scam I've seen in real life, but not on this thread, is the
> "reserved bidder's number," or whatever the name for it might be.  The
> auctioneer has one or two numbers, picked apparently at random from the
> sequence, that are "house" numbers.  If he's taking phantom bids to pump up
> a real bidder, and the latter drops out, the auctioneer, without skipping a
> beat, says "sold, to #36" --or whatever the prearranged # might be.  It's
> really a "no sale", but that's better than being publically exposed for
> selling to the back wall, as it were.
>         The same device can be used to avoid the *seller's* pain at having
> to let the Chelor go for $8 because the sale has been billed as "absolute"
> ie, everything goes to the highest bidder.  If it looks like an item is
> about to go for way less than the auctioneer thinks it's worth, he can sell
> it to #36 (or whatever) and save it for a better day.  This is easier to do
> in the setup where the goods go back into a checkout area rather than being
> delivered immediately to the buyer.  The latter is the standard procedure
> in most small time dispersals and such in the Greater PRINY region.

This is standard at the small weekly auction house I check out. If
you are consigning an object to the auction you can specify a minimum
that you want. The auction house will bid that amount treating it as
if it were an absentee bid (or "left" bid as some have described it).
This
does protect the seller but they do get hit a moderately hefty charge
from the
house if they have to do this. 

My biggest auction "complaint" and it's not really much of one since I
don't know really how prevalent it is, is that I think some of the 
auctioneers at this place do start off with the highest absentee bid
they have rather than starting out lower for that bidder and working
to the max. The absentee bids I've hit on all seem to be my max value.
They may be legit - dunno 'cause I wasn't there B^). Or they may simply
start high partially with the philosophy that rather than start in with
a bidding frenzy that may work its way past your amount, an initial high
bid might make others stop and think long enough for you to get the item
at an amount you _were_ willing to pay for it. Or some of these apparent
high bids may be the house on behalf of a seller who wanted a minimum.
Geeze, the more I think about this the more complicated it becomes B^).
Probably reading into it much more that there is in reality. That number
66 _does_ come up a lot, though. B^) I should pay closer attention to 
the items that come back a few weeks later. Then again, maybe they
_did_ have six copies of that damn parrot print to sell. I _know_ they
couldn't have had two grandfather clocks like one of those, though.
There's the slim possibility of them getting stiffed on payment
sometimes
also. Don't know how aggressive they'd be about going after someone
who bid but didn't pick up and pay.

Oh well. Gotta go and pick up an absentee bid item that I got. For my
max, of course, and I don't know _what_ I was thinking when I put that
amount down. B^( Not even a tool!
-- 

--------------------------------------------------
James A. Foster
Metaphase Technologies, Inc.
email: James.Foster@M...      
Phone: Voice (612) 482-2912     
       Fax   (612) 482-4001   
--------------------------------------------------

I consigned some tools to a local small-time auction house.  They have
a written policy (written on their consignment form) that if the consigner
is present at the auction he/she may "buy back" a lot which is otherwise
going to sell "too low".  The house charges $5 per lot for this.  The
consigner does this by bidding just as any other bidder would bid.

It doesn't take too much of an imagination to see that this policy gives
dealers free rein to bid up their lots.  If they are overzealous and
outbid the room, the worst that happens is that they take their lot back
home with them and pay $5 for the privilege.  When the auction manager
explained this clause to me, he said, "But we don't like folks abusing
this."  Of course, I suppose their steady dealer clients get leeway to
take advantage of the rule more frequently.

On another point someone made in this thread ("left" bids), one policy
I've seen a couple of different auction houses use is to start bidding
at 50% of a left bid.  This is a far better policy for the absentee
bidder than what another poster reckoned was happening to his "left" bids,
where it seemed that they started with the maximum left bid.  If I were
going to make an absentee bid, I would ask the auction manager what the
policy was before submitting the absentee bid.  If you don't feel
comfortable with the explanation, don't bid.  Caveat emptor, etc...

dave
--
Dave Wolverton
Email: dwolverton@l...   Phone: 908-949-1125

James & all Porch Dwellers, "I think some of the auctioneers at this place do
start off with the highest absentee bid they have rather than starting out
lower for that bidder and working to the max." In Tom Witte's recent
auctions, They ask for the highest absentee bid to open the bidding. If that
came from the floor, they reserved the right to raise you one increment.
How's that for a tool to help the house! But since I knew the rule and I
chose to play -I'm happy with my purchases, some at my bid some one bid
higher. No problemo! LEON - THE PLANTATION WOODWRIGHT 

On 13 May 97 at 23:10, Leon143359@a... wrote:

> James & all Porch Dwellers, "I think some of the auctioneers at this
> place do start off with the highest absentee bid they have rather
> than starting out lower for that bidder and working to the max." In
> Tom Witte's recent auctions, They ask for the highest absentee bid
> to open the bidding. If that came from the floor, they reserved the
> right to raise you one increment. How's that for a tool to help the
> house! 

Albeit not a tool auction, there is a program aired locally here 
called "At the Auction", produced in Chicago at the Leslie Hindman 
auction house.  In this program, they take great pains to talk about 
bids placed "to the order" or "in the book".  They describe the 
process as having the absentee bidder record the maximum bid they are 
willing to make.  The bidding begins at the estimated low, or the 
reserve price.  An auction assistant, or sometimes the auctioneer, 
then bids for the absentee with the normal increment of bidding.  
This means the bidder is competing against the other bidders, and not 
the auctioneer.   The inference is that this is the proper way to do 
it.  I have also attended autions where this was NOT the practice, 
and it even felt slimy!  I believe I would, as you seemed to have 
done, made a decision whether I wanted an object badly enough to 
participate in this situation.  I would surely count my fingers when 
the transaction was complete, however!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<> Marrin T. Fleet                    <>
<> MFleet@c...              <>
<> SCT Corp. in adminstration of:     <>
<> Admin. Computing Services          <>
<> The University of Memphis          <>
<> Memphis, TN 38152                  <>
<> 901-678-3604                       <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Leon writes:

>James & all Porch Dwellers, "I think some of the auctioneers at this place do
>start off with the highest absentee bid they have rather than starting out
>lower for that bidder and working to the max." In Tom Witte's recent
>auctions, They ask for the highest absentee bid to open the bidding. If that
>came from the floor, they reserved the right to raise you one increment.

Umm-- sorry, but I've been at (in person) the last dozen or 
so of Tom Witte's auctions, and that is ABSOLUTELY NOT how he 
works.  

At Tom's auctions, bidding always opens from the floor, and Tom 
bids for the absentees *just like any other bidder*.  When there
are multiple absentee bids for an item Tom will raise himself (if
needed) to get the price over the second-highest bid, but other 
than that he is just another bidder.

Tom Witte and Bill Baxter (his auctioneer) run a very smooth, fast
(right Tom B?) and professional auction.  The auctions are always 
well attended, and offer very nice (if occasionally overcleaned) 
merchandise.  I buy much of my stuff from them, and would not 
hesitate for an instant to recommend Tom's shop or auctions to
anyone.

I hate to see such a good guy and fine dealer impugned by such
unfounded accounts of his practices.

ralph
============================================================
Ralph Brendler (ENB/FOYBIPO/OTLM)   Chicago, IL
Woodworker and Collector of Antique Marking Gages
http://www.mcs.net/~brendler/oldtools

Marrin T. Fleet wrote:
> 
> On 13 May 97 at 23:10, Leon143359@a... wrote:
> 
> > James & all Porch Dwellers, "I think some of the auctioneers at this
> > place do start off with the highest absentee bid they have rather
> > than starting out lower for that bidder and working to the max." In
> > Tom Witte's recent auctions, They ask for the highest absentee bid
> > to open the bidding. If that came from the floor, they reserved the
> > right to raise you one increment. How's that for a tool to help the
> > house!
> 
> Albeit not a tool auction, there is a program aired locally here
> called "At the Auction", produced in Chicago at the Leslie Hindman
> auction house.  In this program, they take great pains to talk about
> bids placed "to the order" or "in the book".  They describe the
> process as having the absentee bidder record the maximum bid they are
> willing to make.  The bidding begins at the estimated low, or the
> reserve price.  An auction assistant, or sometimes the auctioneer,
> then bids for the absentee with the normal increment of bidding.
> This means the bidder is competing against the other bidders, and not
> the auctioneer.   The inference is that this is the proper way to do
> it.  

FWIW this is how our local auctions run. There's an actual 
auctioneer, and they will usually trade off every 1.5 hours
or so. There's a table alongside the podium that has on person
handling the computer to record transactions, and another handling
the absentee bids for that lot. The auctioneer is very clear about
the absentee bidding. They will open bidding with "In order to 
satisfy the absentee bidding I have ..." and when bidding against
the floor the bids are always referred to as "at the table." There
are, of course, a handful of lackeys for displaying the stuff and
some help point out bids in the audience to the auctioneer. 

--------------------------------------------------
James A. Foster
Metaphase Technologies, Inc.
email: James.Foster@M...      
Phone: Voice (612) 482-2912     
       Fax   (612) 482-4001   
--------------------------------------------------

I've never hear anyone on the old tools circuit question the honesty of the Tom
Witte auctions...

Some may, at times, consider him a bit charitable in his grading and note that
he occasionally misses a replacement wedge or a repaint job, but he has a
reputation for honesty and mounting a well-run auction.

He is one of a handful of people that I would trust with an absentee bid. 

Randy Roeder                                                              
Repaint houses, not old tools.

On Wed May 14, James Foster) wrote:
>
>FWIW this is how our local auctions run. There's an actual
>auctioneer, and they will usually trade off every 1.5 hours
>or so. There's a table alongside the podium that has on person
>handling the computer to record transactions, and another handling
>the absentee bids for that lot. The auctioneer is very clear about
>the absentee bidding. They will open bidding with "In order to
>satisfy the absentee bidding I have ..." and when bidding against
>the floor the bids are always referred to as "at the table." There
>are, of course, a handful of lackeys for displaying the stuff and
>some help point out bids in the audience to the auctioneer.

Say you are the consignee. Say one person leaves an absentee bid
of $10 for your item. Say another person then leaves a bid of
$15 for your item.

How much would you expect to get as a minumum?

At the local auction, absentee bids are accepted over several
days, amounting to a silent auction for the item. It seems to me
that with multiple absentee bids, the item should go for at
least a fair increment over the second last bid.

Brent

--
Brent Beach, Victoria, BC, CA

On 14 May 97 at 9:17, Brent D. Beach wrote:

> Subject:       Re: Auction scams

> On Wed May 14, James Foster) wrote:
> >
> >FWIW this is how our local auctions run. There's an actual
> >auctioneer, and they will usually trade off every 1.5 hours
> >or so. There's a table alongside the podium that has on person
> >handling the computer to record transactions, and another handling
> >the absentee bids for that lot. The auctioneer is very clear about
> >the absentee bidding. They will open bidding with "In order to
> >satisfy the absentee bidding I have ..." and when bidding against
> >the floor the bids are always referred to as "at the table." There
> >are, of course, a handful of lackeys for displaying the stuff and
> >some help point out bids in the audience to the auctioneer.
> 
> Say you are the consignee. Say one person leaves an absentee bid of
> $10 for your item. Say another person then leaves a bid of $15 for
> your item.
> 
> How much would you expect to get as a minumum?
> 
> At the local auction, absentee bids are accepted over several
> days, amounting to a silent auction for the item. It seems to me
> that with multiple absentee bids, the item should go for at least a
> fair increment over the second last bid.

In the auctions I have attended, and seen in the program aired on the 
H&G channel locally, the auctioneer would bid "$10 to the order -- 
$15 to the order,( etc)" verbalizing all absentee bids, even to, for 
example "$20 to to the order" raising the bid of the first order over 
the second, if approved by the bidder.  When these initial biids have 
been voiced, bidders from the floor jump in.  They could of course 
jump in during the "to the order" business, but would be bid against 
on the order of the absentee bidder.  Lets say the $15 order is on 
the table.  A bidder on the floor could then bid $20.  The, if the 
order specifies, the auctioneer, or the person on the auctioneer's 
staff following the orders, could then bid $25.  This way, the 
absentee bidder can get the item for fair trade price, often 
(sometimes?) below the maximum bid authorized.  It all hinges on the 
honesty of the auctioneer.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<> Marrin T. Fleet                    <>
<> MFleet@c...              <>
<> SCT Corp. in adminstration of:     <>
<> Admin. Computing Services          <>
<> The University of Memphis          <>
<> Memphis, TN 38152                  <>
<> 901-678-3604                       <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ralph & all Porch Dwellers, James said "I think some of the auctioneers at
this place do start off with the highest absentee bid they have rather than
starting out lower for that bidder and working to the max." I'm sorry I
[Leon] said: "They [Tom Witte] ask for the highest absentee bid to open the
bidding. If that came from the floor, they reserved the right to raise you
one increment." Ralph asserted "that is ABSOLUTELY NOT how he works." What I
should have said is, according to Tom Witte's CONDITIONS OF ABSENTEE BIDDING:
"If more than one bid is received on an item the bidding will open at the
next logical raise above the second highest bid... If a floor bid is made at
your maximum, we reserve the right to make one more bid for you." Ralph
explained that "at Tom's auctions, bidding always opens from the floor, and
Tom bids for the absentees *just like any other bidder*." I found it curious
that of my three purchases, one was at my bid and two one increment higher.
Not knowing how many absentee bids came in made me wonder. Coming at the
same time as FTJ's auction conditions explaining how you are placing a MAX
bid and how you may get it lower, I see that not only is it important to
carefully read the conditions but perhaps some experience interpreting them
is helpful. I don't want to hurt anyone's reputation. Those of us in the Old
Tool outback, don't have the opportunity to pick and chose which auction and
which fleamarket will I go to this weekend. I would like to see a list of
major dealers around the country, those with shops. We could all benefit from
hearing your positive experiences, not gloats, but like your defense of Tom
Witte. This dialogue would benefit dealers as well as buyers. Being absent
from the auction we have only our distant perceptions, perhaps simply the
wording could be improved. Sorry if I have and passed on the wrong
impression. Actually, I'm glad to read Ralph's and Randy's defense of Tom
since I ful;ly expect to be doing business with him in the future. LEON