Short Story:

An old problem - I’m having problems getting a
non-blotchy medium-dark brown stain on pine. 

Long Story (with bonus family history):
 
I’m working on another family heirloom project, this
time a more recent circa 1968.  The project is a
home-built dining room table (36’ wide by 90” long)
and a matching bench built by my wife’s father and a
neighbor to accommodate a very large family – my wife
is one of nine kids.   I would like to postpone a
detailed description of the table and bench. and the
wood butchery, for another post because it will be
easier to discuss with accompanying photos.  Lets just
say (TM) that it's a uniquely styled table and bench. 

Now, here is the situation.  The table and bench are
made from pine, ponderosa pine according to Dad, and
it seems right to me, but don’t take my word for it. 
In 1968 Dad and neighbor stained everything black,
table was installed in the dining room and everyone
ate heartily at the table for years, until it was put
to rest in the garage and became a "surface."  You
know the drill, any horizontal plane in a garage or
storage area instantly becomes a shelf – in this case
a very big shelf.   

Okay, fast forward about 20-years to today.  I now
have the table in my shop.  It has suffered a bit from
its years of duty as a shelf, but less than you would
expect.  The current plan is to refinish the tabletop
to a medium brown to match some chairs that we have,
which are black everywhere except the seat, which is
stained.  I've planed/sanded down the top and
performed some wood butchery, er-joinery (again,
photos to follow) on the table’s underside. 
Ultimately, I plan to scrape the final surface to get
that smooth edge-tool look. 

So here's the issue (anyone still with me - hellooo?).
 I'm deathly afraid of "The Blotch"   You know it… the
dreaded "Pine Blotch."  How do you get a medium dark
stain on pine without the blotch?  

I’ve tried a couple of test boards – unfortunately not
ponderosa pine, which I would have to travel several
days to find, but on local Borg white pine, which
takes about 15 minutes to find.  

Test board one:  50/50-BLO/Turps (for natural grain
enhancement), followed by a spit coat of garnet
shellac (a bit of color & protection from the blotch),
then followed by two coats of General Finishes Gel
Stain Nutmeg Brown (which is the aimed for color). 
Problem… not dark enough.     

Test board two:  50/50-BLO/Turps (again for natural
grain enhancement), followed by General Finishes Gel
Stain Nutmeg Brown.  A bit darker, but it looks like
it needs another coat or two and I think that we will
be experiencing "grain obscurity rather" than
enhancement.  Also, it looks like it could blotch
given the right circumstances.  

I’ve been mining the OldTools archives, my library,
and surfing the net seeking the answer.  I’ve read
about using a 1:1 ratio of caustic soda to water to
warm up the pine, but that seems a bit extreme and
dangerous.  I’ve  also read about using nitric acid to
do the same and this seems even more extreme and
dangerous.  

So, does anyone have any advice or experience that
they are willing to share? 

Thanks in advance.  
Steve in Dallas

Oh yeah… OT content:  So far I’ve used a Stanley #7,
and a #81 cabinet scraper, Everlasting chisels, and a
Keystone backsaw.

P.S.  I’ll be away from civilization on a weekend
backpacking trip for the next couple of days, so I’ll
have to check back for "Porch Wisdom" on Monday.  

http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/sLongley/WS-Links.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Longley wrote:

> I'm deathly afraid of "The Blotch" You know it… the dreaded
> "Pine Blotch." How do you get a medium dark stain on pine
> without the blotch?
>
>
>So, does anyone have any advice or experience that they are willing
>to share?
>
>
Check out Jeff Jewitt's "Hand Applied Finishes" and Mike Dresdner's
"The New Wood Finishing Book" from your local library. One of them has
info on how to avoid the blotch, which stain to choose, etc. May
involve shellac (what around here doesn't?). I loaned my copy to a
neighbor for his cherry trim (also prone to blotch), and he was
thrilled with the results.

Don't have them handy, or I'd look them up for you. If your local
library doesn't have them, drop another note and I'll fish them out of
storage (yes this is an indication that I haven;t finished a project in
a few years.

--
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA, who may actually get shop time this
weekend. Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 17 Mar, 2006, at 12:58 PM, Steven Longley wrote:

> An old problem - I’m having problems getting a
> non-blotchy medium-dark brown stain on pine.
> Now, here is the situation.  The table and bench are
> made from pine, ponderosa pine .
>  I'm deathly afraid of the dreaded "Pine Blotch."
>
> I’ve tried a couple of test boards – unfortunately not
> ponderosa pine, which I would have to travel several
> days to find, but on local Borg white pine, which
> takes about 15 minutes to find.
>
> Test board one:  50/50-BLO/Turps (for natural grain
> enhancement), followed by a spit coat of garnet
> shellac (a bit of color & protection from the blotch),
> then followed by two coats of General Finishes Gel
> Stain Nutmeg Brown (which is the aimed for color).
> Problem… not dark enough.
>
> Test board two:  50/50-BLO/Turps (again for natural
> grain enhancement), followed by General Finishes Gel
> Stain Nutmeg Brown.  A bit darker, but it looks like
> it needs another coat or two and I think that we will
> be experiencing "grain obscurity rather" than
> enhancement.  Also, it looks like it could blotch
> given the right circumstances.
>
Hello all -

Some thoughts about Steve's plight:

1. Test one seems much like the dye/one lb. washcoat/stain approach 
touted in a recent FWW article. (I'm going to try it this weekend on 
some cherry test boards in prep for some kitchen cabinets). I guess the 
idea is that the shellac semi-seals the wood to prevent blotching. It 
seems to have worked, as evidenced by the more dense penetration on the 
second board, where the shellac was omitted. I would wager that you 
could keep building the stain color on the first board. Tape off a few 
sections and try more coats and colors.

2. Chris Minick recommends avoiding blotch (in cherry, however) by 
sealing with super-blond then adding color with coats of button lac.

3. One of the big, big names in woodfinishing has recently changed his 
tune concerning pre-stain conditioners. (I am about 99% sure about the 
name and the facts but I'm on the road at the moment and don't want to 
attribute an opinion to him without checking the source). He used to 
recommend using a conditioner per the label, which demands that the 
stain go on before the conditioner dries, and found the results to be 
iffy and inconsistent. This was my experience a few years ago when I 
used this method on some vertical-grain Douglas fir flooring, which I 
was trying to get to complement a heart pine floor I found under the 
carpet and a century of gunk. Anyway, he now suggest that better 
results can be obtain by letting the conditioner dry. The theory is 
that more of the stuff gets into the more absorbent wood, and by 
letting it dry it has a sealing effect. I think this is the point of 
the shellac washcoat.

4. I'm sure you were planning this, (but just in case) remember you 
have the ultimate test boards of Ponderosa pine; after your tests are 
done, try it on the underside of the bench or table.  If it's a bust 
you can go back to square one, develop another recipe, and still have 
another underside to double-check on.

Good luck and post some pictures.
Regards,
Greg T.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve
 I think you're on the right track
 Experimenting some that is.
 After a bit of this I think you should just go for it. You're probably 
there already.
 Some unevenness should not only be expected but welcomed!
Unless you were trying to reproduce formica or vinyl paneling by using 
well aged family heirloom pine?
 It's wood. Wood isn't -supposed- to be the same color all over.
 The furniture factories need a mostly opaque stain to paste up their 
products so fairies will buy it "to matchy" for their decorator clients, 
and nobody involved has likely ever seen wood the way it comes. 
Amalgamated paste.
    Personally, I want real wood in my life when I can get it.  There is 
no shame at all in genuine solid pine. Nothing that deserves to be hidden.
      yours, Scott
-- 
*** Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 **** 
Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm with Scott on this (Most other things too, I guess.)--

>    Personally, I want real wood in my life when I can get it.  There is no 
>shame at all in genuine solid pine. Nothing that deserves to be hidden.

I have an example of blotchy pine within easy reach of my keyboard.  It's a 
file cabinet, and was one of my very first galoot projects, wherein I made 
my first (half-blind) dovetails, with an oak top and pine everything else.  
For some reason, I felt compelled to stain it, and it turned an ugly, 
blotchy green.  I sanded it off as best as I could and gave it a linseed oil 
and beewax finish.  The drawer fronts still have signs of the stain, in 
streaks and hazy looking patches.  Nobody seems to care--at least it's real 
wood, well made and functional.  Pine has its limitations, but they are also 
it's character.  You need to expect dents and blotches, and allow for 
thicker joints and structural members.  That doesn't bother me.

Umm, so I guess my pitch is to just go for a natural color and don't worry 
about it.

PK
"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil and Debbie Koontz wrote:

>  For some reason, I felt compelled to stain it, and it turned an ugly, 
> blotchy green.  I sanded it off as best as I could and gave it a 
> linseed oil and beewax finish.  The drawer fronts still have signs of 
> the stain, in streaks and hazy looking patches.  Nobody seems to 
> care--at least it's real wood, well made and functional.  Pine has its 
> limitations, but they are also it's character.  You need to expect 
> dents and blotches, and allow for thicker joints and structural 
> members.  That doesn't bother me.
>
> Umm, so I guess my pitch is to just go for a natural color and don't 
> worry about it.
>
> PK
> "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you."
>
>
Thinking about blotchy green stain:

Short Version:

Boy did I turn some wood green....

Long Version:

While working on the world's second ugliest saw till (don't want to 
think that I have peaked yet..),  I decided to 'create' a batch of green 
wood stain.   Some dark green Ritz fabric dye was added to a pint of 
warm water and, instant green dye.  This was way too easy, so I added 
some more of the dye. (Loop until is it way to dark, then add a pinch more.)

After applying the first coat of dye, it looked a little light. (See 
also the repetitive loop of adding dye to water.) Another couple of 
coats followed.    Returning after a mug of coffee, I was amazed to see 
that I had discovered a recipe for faux Wolmanizing! (a truly ugly shade 
of green on pressure treated lumber, Jeff).   Worse yet, when I touched 
the scabby fourth hand, faux Wolmanized plywood, green rubbed off on my 
hand.  In an effort to correct this misadventure, and retain all of the 
wonderful green-ness,  I slopped on a couple coats of BLO and turps.  So 
much for the faux Wolmanizing, it now looks somewhere between week old 
sea weed and inky blots on a shirt pocket.  At least now, less of the 
green is transferred when you touch the wood.  (I am on a roll here...)

The only rational solution was to protect the "creation" with some 
shellac.  Rooting through the paint locker turned up a can of just about 
expired Amber Bullseye Shellac: Perfect for this project.  As always, 
shellac performed wonders - The inky blackness has receded a bit, now it 
just looks like the finish on '70s vintage barrel furniture.  I can not 
wait to see what a couple of more coats of shellac will do for this 
fabulous finish.

I will save the best for when pictures of the world's second ugliest saw 
till  are posted on Galoot Image Central in a couple of days.

Tim

Even the Leprechauns are wearing mittens tonight in nippy NJ.

p.s. - The plywood began as a shop project by a younger brother in High 
School. 20 years later it was trimmed and became shelving under one of 
my Dad's work benches. Next it served as a ramp for moving motorcycles 
and snow blowers into the back of a pickup truck.  If the Smithsonian 
does not grab the saw till for posterity, I  wonder what will happen to 
the plywood next?  :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a bit more on wood coloring, if it's ok
 I cannot beat the real natural color of wood. Can't mix a stain, paint 
a color, not even colored shellac, dye or whatever. I simply can't get 
the subtle varying shades and deep genuine colors of any kind of wood.
 Can't do it
 There are many times I have tried stains and such trying to improve a 
color or match something else.
Every -single - solitary - time, I have failed. Every time, bar none.  
You'd think I'd learn.
  Even when I was generally pleased with the project, as time went on, 
the pastiness of the color made it less important than it could have 
been. Other projects, of lesser work and lesser importance initially, 
took on a more endeared place in my life.
  Here I am in my little living room. I'm looking at Kitty's 
grandmothers desk. Corrine Whittemore (her name) got it as a premium for 
selling Watkins products door to door when she was a teenager (marked on 
the underside). Watkins is still in business as a spice and extract 
company, I think,  but their line also included patent (quack) medicines 
around the turn of the century. 
This is a small late Victorian drop front ladies desk on tall thin 
curved legs. It's quartered white oak veneer panels with solid wo 
framing and legs.  Common style of the day. This desk has survived at 
least one flood and one house fire that I know of for sure.
  When we inherited it, it was covered in the latest of "antiquing" 
pseudo graining over a blech background of pasty paint. Under this was 
another 3 or 5 assorted colors of paint. 
  Well, the minute it was secure in our basement, the both of us set to 
and stripped all the old paint. No chemicals, we did it all with 
scrapers as a team. The applied machine carving included.  Cleaned it 
right to the veneer and if we screwed up and had to repair the veneer, 
it doesn't show and I can't remember it.
  Then, like a pair of maroons, we proceeded to slather it with extracto 
de asphaltum also known as walnut stain.
Several coats of hand rubbed finish went over this.
  It looked fine and we were proud of it. Had it ever since.
 Meanwhile, less than 4 feet away from it sits a small box on a 
sideboard. It's a plain poker box from the same early turn o century 
period. A chestnut box lined with tin on top to hold cigars and a poker 
chip drawer below. This one arrived covered in the remains of old paint 
too. This one was skinned in 10 minutes flat with it's plain flat 
surfaces and simply oiled a couple coats and then shellaced to within an 
inch of it's life.
   When strangers first come into the room, do they walk right over and 
notice/admire the delicate sand cast  brass seashell hardware on the 
white oak desk??? Open it right up to check out the letter pidgenholes 
and drawers inside?  Never happens. The plain dumb cigar box draws their 
attention everytime. It looks real, the desk looks suspect in it's muddy 
single dark color.
  I firmly believe had we simply oiled and finished out the white oak, 
-it- would have been the centerpiece of the room instead.     Doh 
!!!!!!!!!!!
  You can't beat wood. That's why we work it. Paint will never be the same.
 yours, Scott
-- 
*** Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 **** 
Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Am I missing something here?  Correct me if I am because I have found 
blotch an easy problem to eradicate.

When I started working with pine I stained it, got awful blotches.  A 
book told me to apply a stain conditioner or boiled linseed oil, let 
it sit 5-10 minutes and then apply the stain.  I ran a test with no 
conditioner, minwax stain conditioner and BLO.  The absence of 
conditioner was a nightmare.  Conditioner worked like a charm, BLO 
also worked but the stain was too light for my liking.

I have never gotten blotch again.

Nathaniel
------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 17 Mar 2006 at 18:48, Phil and Debbie Koontz wrote:

> I'm with Scott on this (Most other things too, I guess.)--
> 
> >    Personally, I want real wood in my life when I can get it.  There is no 
> >shame at all in genuine solid pine. Nothing that deserves to be hidden.
> 
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~shave~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> Umm, so I guess my pitch is to just go for a natural color and don't worry 
> about it.
> 

 I agree, however, I have found that an oil based stain following a 
conditioner can give a rather nice, aged look to pine.

_____________

Spike Cornelius
PDX - Crazy for Shavings

------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK Steve,

I have to agree with Scott again, in that I can't improve on the natural 
color of wood.  I understand the concern of blotchy color on the pine 
and agree that you should use the bottom of the piece you are working on 
to achieve what you want.

However, I want to suggest an alternative to what you are trying to do. 
What would be wrong with finishing the table top in almost natural and 
then refinishing the chair bottoms to match that?  As Scott said, unless 
you want to make this into formica, you can't really make it a uniform 
color and consistency.  I personally love the color variation if you 
have to stain, but prefer the natural variation that cannot be achieved 
any way but through natural finishes.

Of course, if there is an overwhelming reason to color dark.........

BTW, Ponderosa Pine is only surpassed in beauty by Sugar Pine IMO, and 
both are *way* above the pine you buy at the Borg. (Large chain builder 
supply store, Jeff)

Bruce Z.
Kearney, MO
Old tools FS list at http://www.generationsfurniture.com/tools

> Short Story:
>
> An old problem - I'm having problems getting a
> non-blotchy medium-dark brown stain on pine.
>
> Long Story (with bonus family history):
Snipped per the FAQ 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 268.2.2/280 - Release Date: 3/13/2006

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Nathaniel points out, avoiding blotching is easy. What's
harder is avoiding the blotch AND getting a dark color. I've 
been able to do this by first sealing with a conditioner (shellac,
MinWax, whatever) and then applying several layers of oil-based 
stain, almost as a glaze. (The problem is that the sealing works
against getting things dark.) I apply the stain liberally, and then use
a 
rag, not to wipe off excess, but to distribute it, by letting 
the rag become saturated. You're going to obscure the grain
somewhat, and are, in effect, doing some graining of your own
with the glazing, but if you're patient it can be done.  In my
case - using 2-byes from the lumber yard for a table top - I 
had to experiment mixing my own color from several of the same
brand. (Of course the top warped all to heck, but back then
I didn't know any better.  So I had a nicely colored wavy top.)

Tom Ellis
Dayton OH
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... 
> [mailto:oldtools-bounces@r...] On Behalf Of 
> N.A. Mitkowski
> Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:47 AM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] The Pine Blotch
> 
> Am I missing something here?  Correct me if I am because I have found 
> blotch an easy problem to eradicate.
> 
> When I started working with pine I stained it, got awful blotches.  A 
> book told me to apply a stain conditioner or boiled linseed oil, let 
> it sit 5-10 minutes and then apply the stain.  I ran a test with no 
> conditioner, minwax stain conditioner and BLO.  The absence of 
> conditioner was a nightmare.  Conditioner worked like a charm, BLO 
> also worked but the stain was too light for my liking.
> 
> I have never gotten blotch again.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been following this thread with some interest,

Steve Longley told us
>The table and bench are made from pine, ponderosa pine according to
>Dad,

and asked

>How do you get a medium dark stain on pine without the blotch?

and thereafter we've handed out the usual great galoot advice, i.e all
colours of opinion.

My advice is also worth what you paid for it. . .. .

First, lets understand about the blotch effect - as noted, it's
prevalent on instant grown pine. Nowadays boards are through sawn, and
the resinous content of growth rings frequently appears as the 'classic'
pine look.

Memory is hazy about Ponderosa pine, but does it suffer/feature a high
resin content? If not, then you're ahead of the Borg product. Look at
the grain, and decide if you have a stain friendly surface - tight,
parallel growth rings, all seen end on as a series of lines, and not as
the v or inverted v of a through sawn board where you are presented with
tangential cuts. The 'conditioners' mentioned are a means of overcoming
these resinous areas to allow the stain to penetrate.

Alternatively, and less satisfactory, is colour the timber using a
surface treatment such as shellac. After sealing the timber with a
couple of thinned coats, use garnet to produce as dark a colour as you
want. Here you run the risk of any damage revealing the underlying
timber though. Better to get some colour into the surface ready for
future chipping - Taken to extreme, professional places spray the colour
on (why would anyone *want* that ? )

So well and good, but no one has yet mentioned the traditional and
friendly van Dyke stain. Water based, and simple enough to reapply and
mess with until the colour is even. Again, start with a seal coat of
blonde shellac to control penetration, then switch to Van dyke, and work
away until you're happy. A wet cloth will take off most of what you
applied ( but rarely *all* ! ) and allow you to begin again. When happy,
apply more shellac over the top to protect and finish.

I suspect that you will have far less problem with your ponderosa pine
than with your test boards.

Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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at 16 Charlotte Square, Edinburgh EH2 4DF.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'll jump in here and add a penny's worth.  I happen to have
The Natural Paint Book (approximate title).  When this thread
started, I pulled it out and read a bit about wood finishes.  To
darken wood, the book advocates saturating the board with tea 
followed by vinegar/steel wool mixture.  I recall Jim Thompson
strongly recommending this for ebonizing, and according to the
above-mentioned book, the amount of darkening can be controlled.
The advantage is that it is more than just a surface treatment.
In fact, I seem to recall that Jim has given detailed instructions
but if anyone wants, I can summarize and post the book's guidance.
Charlie Rodgers
Clinton, Maryland

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I missed a lot of this thread . . . does anyone but me use
a heat gun to darken pine?    Uh, I guess you shouldn't 
do this if you've been using kerosene on it or anything, 
or am I mixing my threads again?

Gary K
Close to Buffalo NY, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------

dangnabit,  gary, heat gun uses them dangerous electrons and isn't nearly 
as fun as live flame--

a torch (brass gasoline blowtorch is perfered) or flaming stick is the 
galoot way

Somewhere in the garage I have a test panal comparing oak treated with 
rusty vinegar, vs pre-treatment with tannic acid followed by rusty 
vinegar, vs iron sulfate (with or without rusty vinegar). I'll see if I 
can dig it out and post a photo  End result: rusty vinegar beats iron 
sulfate solution, tannic acid + rusty vinegar works best. 

tim
raliegh nc 

"Gary K" <gtgrouch@r...> 
Sent by: oldtools-bounces@r...
03/20/2006 02:08 PM

To
<oldtools@r...>
cc

Subject
Re: [OldTools] The Pine Blotch

I missed a lot of this thread . . . does anyone but me use
a heat gun to darken pine?    Uh, I guess you shouldn't 
do this if you've been using kerosene on it or anything, 
or am I mixing my threads again?

Gary K
Close to Buffalo NY, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary, I think that you can safely use a heat gun following the application
of Kerosene, just so long as you do it in Australia. Given the typhoon
damage in the northeastern part of the country I would recommend heading for
Tasmania so as not to offend or take any unnecessary risks in a disaster
zone. Americans hanging around scorching Kerosene soaked wood in a disaster
area could possibly create an international incident.

Since all the blokes in Australia are evidently named Jeff, as I have
learned from the List, you might have a difficult time navigating the legal
system there. When the magistrate says Stand up Jeff and everyone stands up,
but you, they'll know immediately that you are an American named Gary.
Those Aussies are very cunning like that.

Of course, if you mix your threads and wear checks and stripes together they
will also know that you are up to no good and probably an American.  I think
it would be far better to leave your pine with a natural finish which you
can accomplish holistically without leaving the country. Paul in Normal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-
> bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Gary K
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:09 PM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: Re: [OldTools] The Pine Blotch
> 
> I missed a lot of this thread . . . does anyone but me use
> a heat gun to darken pine?    Uh, I guess you shouldn't
> do this if you've been using kerosene on it or anything,
> or am I mixing my threads again?
> 
> Gary K
> Close to Buffalo NY, USA
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/faq.html
> 
> OldTools archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> 
> OldTools@r...
> http://ruckus.law.cornell.edu/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Since all the blokes in Australia are evidently named Jeff, 

I hate to disagree with a fellow I-74er (Interstate Highway running through
central Illinois, USA, Jeff), but I believe that we established that all the
males in Australia, or at least those with old tools proclivities, are named
Peter.

Peter B (NSW), Peter Evans (NSW), Peter Huisman (Perth), and Peter McBride
(Melborne) care to stand and be counted?

Rob in Peoria

Mr. Manners, what happened?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rob, how foolish of me to forget that particular thread about Australian
tool folks named Peter, but there you go again----mixing threads.  It sets a
dangerous precedent. 

We now have natural finishes, heat guns, Australian men named Peter or Jeff
with exception of Mr. Manners, with old tool proclivities as well as the
dangerous nature of Kerosene and odd clothing with mismatched patterns all
in one message. How will this ever be archived properly?

Just to bring this back to some semblance of order, I will tell you that I
love Gorilla Glue when it is appropriate. But, since I see that this message
began a long time ago with the problem of Pine Blotch I see no way to
combine all of these threads even with the appropriate CA glue and a coat of
natural paint or rusty vinegar.

Perhaps instead of rusty vinegar we could use balsamic vinegar.  Due to its
high natural sugar content, it should brown nicely with a heat gun I think.
There it goes again--the voices in my head are telling me to begin supper.
Paul in Normal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldtools-bounces@r... [mailto:oldtools-
> bounces@r...] On Behalf Of Robert Weber
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 3:06 PM
> To: oldtools@r...
> Subject: RE: [OldTools] The Pine Blotch
> 
> >Since all the blokes in Australia are evidently named Jeff,
> 
> I hate to disagree with a fellow I-74er (Interstate Highway running
> through
> central Illinois, USA, Jeff), but I believe that we established that all
> the
> males in Australia, or at least those with old tools proclivities, are
> named
> Peter.
> 
> Peter B (NSW), Peter Evans (NSW), Peter Huisman (Perth), and Peter McBride
> (Melborne) care to stand and be counted?
> 
> Rob in Peoria
> 
> Mr. Manners, what happened?
> 
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> 
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Hello Everyone, 

Thanks so much for the public as well as private
emails relating your experience with "Pine Blotch."  
As it has been said before... the Porch is a great and
giving place, as well as a fount of knowledge and
encouragement.  

As a result of the responses, it looks like I have a
few more test boards to do.   I’ll keep everyone
posted on what happens and post pictures.   I can
start out with three "before" photos on Galoot Image
Central.   

3/4 View:
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=3702

Quaterfoil End
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=3705

Top
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=3700

The photos are taken in my driveway on "unloading day"
of the table.  I think that you’ll see why I did not
try to describe the table and bench in words, but
wanted to wait until I could post some photos.  I
believe that the correct description of the pedestals
(for the archives) would be flat panels with a
quarterfoil cutout, 
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterfoil ), 
but when I say that to someone I get that “huh” look -
 most likely the same look that I would give if
someone said it to me!

So, now you can see the table’s condition - not bad
for being in a garage for 20-years - but definitely in
need of some TLC.  I’ll post some additional photos of
the now-stripped top as well as the new stretcher and
sled foot that I’ve applied to brace the two pedestals
and to bring the table up to standard height. 

Thanks again, 
Steve in Dallas

"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne" - The
Craftsman

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Robert Weber writes:

> I hate to disagree with a fellow I-74er (Interstate Highway running
through
> central Illinois, USA, Jeff), but I believe that we established that all
the
> males in Australia, or at least those with old tools proclivities, are
named
> Peter.
>
> Peter B (NSW), Peter Evans (NSW), Peter Huisman (Perth), and Peter McBride
> (Melborne) care to stand and be counted?

Not to mention the learned Mr Peter Marquis-Kyle from sunny, cyclonic
Queensland.

> Mr. Manners, what happened?

I believe that, around the time of my birth, the whole ofAustralia was
petrified at the thought that this fair land was about to become a most
unwilling vasssal of the Land of the Rising Sun.  I simply happened to be an
obliging, if unwitting, part of the government's emergency programme to
depetrify the country.

Regards from Brisbane

John Manners

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul Schobernd types:

and types:

O gods!  What would one give for such a gift of repartee?  And how much
more, should it be withheld?

Regards from Brisbane

John Manners
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oops.. I see that I mis-linked one of my photo links
in the earlier email.  Here is the correction (I
hope):  

Btter View of the Top: 
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=3706
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeff Schmidt is the latest to privately enquire ..

>What exactly is van Dyke stain?

so I hope he won't mind me copying the porch, for I've had a few
questions on similar lines.

IIRC Van Dyke crystals are the concentrated remains of an alchemical
process which starts with walnut husks. This makes it a very friendly
stuff to use, as it comes as dry crumbly powder, and you just mix with
water. Roughly speaking, owt you dip in, or smear it over, goes a
tasteful brown shade. Adjust the concentration to suit the colour you
want. It lasts the best part of fortnight on hands, and probably forever
on clothing.

The original answer involved applying some blonde shellac to a piece to
control subsequent penetration of stain, then using this water based
stuff to apply colour.

Now, the cunning part of the plan is using a water miscible product over
a spirit miscible product. They don't mix. You can slather on the water
stuff until you're happy, then, when you discover you aren't happy, wipe
it off with a wet cloth. The underlying item hasn't been irretrievably
coloured (colored, Paddy) Naturally, this is a bit of an
oversimplification - do some tests boards as usual etc etc.

I'm given to understand that acrylic colours work in this manner too,
but I suspect that, when dry, they won't come off, but I haven't tried
them, so if someone does, I'm one porchster who'd appreciate a report.

Back to the plot - when you're happy, or nearly happy, seal in the
colour with another dose of shellac, and voila! you have a fresh clean
surface to apply any further colour details, or stipple in some extra
colour to the detail moulding etc, and again you are able to reverse out
of mistakes. finally of course you seal in the last layer, then go to
final finishing.

As I say, a bit of oversimplification. In the case of my pole lathe I
just brushed on some dilute Van Dyke onto Borg pine and it all came down
to a pleasing tone not unlike wood. I didn't seal it, and was affrighted
when it got rained on half an hour later, and droplet marks appeared,
but after more time outdoors and some more moisture all that's
disappeared, and the colour is still the same, now toned down and evened
out to look like an old pole lathe that lives outdoors and gets dinged.
Quite pleasing.

Or again, on a joint stool, with turned legs verging into sapwood, the
technique allowed me to control the colour across the end grain / side
grain / sapwood parts of the turning and end up with an even colour. I
was pleased with this.

ymmv

I know only of Liberon as a supplier in the US of A, though as a time
served traditional finish in the land of the walnut tree I'm sure there
must be others. Google for Van Dyke Crystals Hey! I just did that and
turned up http://www.periodproperty.co.uk/article039.htm which gives a
good run down on stains and staining.

quote "










    Vandyke crystals give a lovely colour on oak, especially with the
    addition of a little water black and washing soda. Tone orangey pine
    boards down with a walnut stain with a little added green to kill
    the warmth. "






 Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot.





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