Many of the posts disclosing some sort of home-blacksmithing also tend to
enlighten us that it's too noisy for most neighborhoods.

Is this true? Are there some tips for someone contemplating pounding on iron
"within the city limits"?

Matthew Groves
Kearney, Nebraska

PS Don't bid on that anvil this weekend, I'm hoping to get it.

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And not just noise, but also stinky coal smoke and a 2,000 degree fire as
well.

Certainly wouldn't work in my neighborhood - it's a pretty new subdivision
of 419 houses, none older than about 8 years, all on lots no larger than
maybe 1/4 acre - plus we have a pretty hefty restrictive covenant.  Not my
number one choice of living situation, but it worked very well while I was
in law school.  Now that I'm out we'll start looking around for more
spacious (and rural) accomodations.  Prerequisites include a barn or place
to put one, and enough space that I can do some smithing without hearing
from the neighbors all the time!

The only thing I can think of for smithing in a small neighborhood is build
your forge inside a masonry structure.  Just a couple miles down the road
there is a professional artisan blacksmith whose shop is in a small, old
neighborhood - his forge is in a building behind the house and you'd never
know it was there.  Pipe the smoke up a tall chimney and keep the doors
closed, and the noise probably won't be detected.

-----------------------------------------
Bill Taggart
-----------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew and Cathy Groves [mailto:groves@c...] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:04 AM
> To: oldtools
> Subject: [oldtools] Residential Smithing
> 
> 
> Many of the posts disclosing some sort of home-blacksmithing 
> also tend to enlighten us that it's too noisy for most neighborhoods.
> 
> Is this true? Are there some tips for someone contemplating 
> pounding on iron "within the city limits"?
> 
> Matthew Groves
> Kearney, Nebraska
> 
> PS Don't bid on that anvil this weekend, I'm hoping to get it.
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand 
> tool aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the 
> history, usage, 
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of 
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools. 
> 
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> Bill and Matt ponder smithing possibilities and approaches in
neighborhoods...

Maybe PK could enlighten us on how he handles such matters in the
overcrowded urban sprawl where he lives?  ;^)

Chuck Myers, in pleasantly warm Phoenix, where he doesn't live

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I have a farmers rivet forge and anvil sitting on the back porch and  
honestly the forge might smoke a little on startup, but it puts out less  
smoke than a BBQ grill.  Everything I have heard about the smoke issue  
relates to the quality of coal that you are using, so a better coal will  
produce less smoke.  The fire itself is very small, usually about the  
size of a couple of bricks when I use it to heat metal up.  You  
basically build a fire that fits what you are doing and I would say that  
a long narrow one is what I use most often.  I start my forge up with a  
mapp torch, and am ready to heat metal in about 10 minutes.  I guess I  
don't want to waste a lot of time fooling around with the fire.  Until  
we get to the metal beating, I don't think the neighbors even notice.   
It is the rhythmic striking that gets noticed, and that is for the good  
in my experiences.  If I were you, I would see what happens.  

Samuel L. Peterson
Associate Director, MU Grants & Contracts
Manager, UM Sponsored Programs

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew and Cathy Groves [mailto:groves@c...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:04 AM
To: oldtools
Subject: [oldtools] Residential Smithing

Many of the posts disclosing some sort of home-blacksmithing also tend  
to
enlighten us that it's too noisy for most neighborhoods.

Is this true? Are there some tips for someone contemplating pounding on  
iron
"within the city limits"?

Matthew Groves
Kearney, Nebraska

PS Don't bid on that anvil this weekend, I'm hoping to get it.

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  Move to Camp!
 One of my neighbors smokes salmon. This is fine when they watch the 
fire. When they don't, which is usual, it smells like they are roasting 
cat fur over a fire of old inner tubes all night.
 Another nighbor is addicted to small engines and has a mower or weed 
eater or chainsaw or something going 4 times a week continuous.
 Another neighbor has an old motorcycle with no muffler and only rides 
it a few times a year but works on it all the time, revving it to 8,000 
over and over and over.
  So, all I'd have to do is put up a sound barrier in one direction. The 
others, well, they deserve the racket.
 yours, Scott

********** Scott Grandstaff, Box 409, Happy Camp, CA 96039 ********* 
Tools:http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/scott/scotts/tools/tools.html 
PageWorks:http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/

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Charcoal, I get Lazzari (sp?) mesquite charcoal from the same Lazzari's 
that I get smithing coal from.  I have 5 neighbors within 50 feet of my 
"smithy" and haven't had a complaint yet.  Though the new guy next door 
couldn't understandy why I was Barbequeing and breaking apart plumbing 
pipe in the yard at the same time. ;-)   Charcoal is traditional as 
fuel, but doesn't stick together like good smithing coal. Have to try 
the sheet of iron over the fire to get that cave you're supposed to use 
for welding.

I also try to smith during the middle of the day and not into the 
night. Having neighbors on two sides in the middle of remodeling 
projects helps some, They havent' complained and a lot of other 
neighbors seem to think the noise is coming from the remodel.

My smithy patio is covered, so when the winter rains come, and all the 
neighbors have their windows closed, I'll try switching back to coal 
for a while. That initial cloud of yellow/white smoke can look like the 
house is on fire, especially if the wind isn't blowing.

Michael-San Francisco

   Many of the posts disclosing some sort of home-blacksmithing also 
tend to
enlighten us that it's too noisy for most neighborhoods.

Is this true? Are there some tips for someone contemplating pounding on 
iron
"within the city limits"?

Matthew Groves
Kearney, Nebraska

PS Don't bid on that anvil this weekend, I'm hoping to get it.

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I've fiddled around a little, use a propane forge (firebrick and a Ron 
Reil burner), so no real smoke/smell to worry about. I usually open one of 
the garage doors, put the small forge near the open door, and wack away. 
Doesn't seem to make any more noise than running a leaf blower or table 
saw, and seems to make less noise than pounding nails in the roof. 

tim 

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There are more issues than just the neighbors when you set up a forge.  
Let's see if I can organize them--

Noise.  If you don't use hearing protection when you beat on steel you will 
lose your hearing.  It's noticeable, and although some of your hearing comes 
back over time, some of it doesn't.  Take care of your ears and eyes, 
because nobody else will do it for you.  Some anvils are quieter than 
others.  Anvil noise is not necessarily a good thing.  Some loud anvils are 
lively, but some quiet ones are too.  I have a Peter Wright that I love, but 
it's a fairly loud anvil.  The neighbors don't complain about the noise, 
however--one has even told me that she thinks it's a cheerful sound.  But 
then again, the daily noise in our neighborhood includes everything from 
chainsaws and diesel engines to gunfire.

Ventilation, heat, smoke.  Several people have made the point about coal 
smoke; it's illegal in some places, and objectionable in others.  You can 
use low sulfur coal and burn it indoors with a chimney--it helps a lot.  In 
most places, if you use a good chimney, you probably won't have much problem 
with the neighbors.  Ventilation is a big issue with either propane or coal. 
  If you work indoors, you are subject to carbon monoxide poisoning, 
particularly with a propane forge.  You can easily overheat a small shop 
with a forge, to the point that you may be risking heat exhaustion.  Working 
outdoors has some issues too; coal smoke is harder to control, colors can be 
harder to see and interpret in sunlight, and your tools are out there for 
everyone and the weather to interact with.

Attractive nuisance.  I like to work with other people around, generally 
speaking.  But remember that they need to use eye and ear protection too, 
and bystanders need to be in a safe area where they won't get in the way of 
hot steel or flying particles like cutoff steel.

Casual fires.  Take a look at the ground or floor around your work area and 
think about fire hazards.  Then think about it again.  Keep water and fire 
extinguishers handy.  And a first aid kit.

PK

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Matt and GG's
I don't exactly do it  *at home*, but I could probably get away with it.
You don't  have to use coal. Use a decent propane "pipe forge". It's 
basically a grill on steroids and will do everything you want it to do 
including some forge welding. If you're going to want to weld a lot, 
build a "blown Pipe Forge" (Uses a blower to push more fire into the 
forge.) The first way, you get a few days worth of work from a #20 can 
of propane. The blown forge gets about one 8 hour day, unless you're 
real anal about shutting it off when you don't have iron in the fire, 
but man that's a lot of heat!

You have to have cross ventilation. CO is a natural byproduct of 
smithing with propane.

What Phil said about safety and fire prevention is important. If you're 
careful, it shouldn't be a problem.

Noise? Actually, you'll get more complaints if you listen to loud hip 
hop than if you smith at home. If you have a garage, that can block 
your neighbors from 75% of the noise right there. The noise isn't the 
type to really carry @ high decibels for too far. You're not actually 
striking the anvil most of the time, you're *waiting* to strike the 
anvil. My anvil rings like a bell, so I wrapped a ten foot heavy chain 
around it and that silenced it very well. Most populated areas have 
enough background noise to help disguise your smithing sounds.

Its so fun you've got to try it and see how it goes. If your neighbors 
complain too much you can always sell your stuff to someone with more 
space, or find a friend farther out of town and set up there.

I say go for it, and be careful.
Cheers,
Wes

> Matt asked:
>
> Is this true? Are there some tips for someone contemplating pounding 
> on iron
> "within the city limits"?

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Mathew wrote...

> Many of the posts disclosing some sort of home-blacksmithing also tend to
> enlighten us that it's too noisy for most neighborhoods.
>
> Is this true? Are there some tips for someone contemplating pounding on 
> iron
> "within the city limits"?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

   When I first started blacksmithing I lived where there were 5 other 
houses on my property line, one of which I actually shared a driveway with. 
I had a shop about 8ft X 5 ft and would pull my small forge out front of the 
shop into my driveway to work. Had an anvil mounted out there which I kept a 
feed tub over it when not being used. Nearest neighbor back door was maybe 
about 75 ft from the anvil. Have to admit to never even giving it any 
thought about me working on my own property or that it would cause trouble. 
Never had any complaints at all from anyone about my blacksmithing. I think 
my neighbors were much more worried about our dogs eating them! Actually did 
have to buy another house and move when one of the neirgbors chow dogs came 
in my yard and our pit dog who was tired out on its run at the time killed 
it then a few weeks later it tore up some kid pretty good that walked though 
the yard.Was kind of messy and we figured time to get rid of the dog or 
move...I moved..
  In my experance just about everybody likes blacksmiths esp. if you make 
some stuff  or do some work for them. I think some simple plant hangers 
given out might go a long way to getting you in good graces with your 
neighbors that you think might give you trouble. I won't talk to the use of 
propane forges as I consider them to be a power tool and have never owned 
one. But with coal forges if you manage your fire correctly you will have 
lots less smoke. It is the "Green' uncoked coal that smokes with the heavy 
yellow or white smoke.You often see this when you first start the fire but 
if you are careful to make sure to keep enough coke from your last fire to 
use to start the new one you will have lots less smoke.Coke is what you use 
to make your using fire, it is green coal that has been "cooked" next to the 
fire. Coke puts out lots of heat but not much smoke.

 I used to set up my forge at a local town craft event making knives and 
axes and selling the same as well as old tools. My spot was always popluar 
,with people lined up 3 deep watching me work and B.S., always had a good 
time. One year as I was lighting my forge this woman comes over who was set 
up across the street in this big white tent selling Artsy Fartsy photography 
prints and she wanted to know if this fire was going to make any smoke 
[!]...I told here a bit maybe and she expressed her concern about it getting 
in her tent. Hour or so later she came over and said that the smoke was 
really bad and could I do something about it. Now I had a small rivet forge 
and there wasn't much smoke at all and what it was was going up in the air, 
and she was clear across the street but I told her that the worst smoke was 
probably when I started the fire and should be ok now. End of the day she 
comes over and tells me real snotty like she didn't sell one thing and it 
was because of all the smoke!...Hmm I pointed out that I sold just under 
$2,000 and had people thick around my forge and  that the smoke didn't seem 
to bother them. I told her after having looked at her art work I don't think 
the problim  why she didn't sell any photographs  was the smoke being to 
thick but rather not thick enough as they could still be seen clearly! 
......Todd 

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Lest Todd forget (and I can never approach the great way he tells it)
there's also on Todd's table the ever popular skull with exposed brainpan
filled with candy for the kids, right Todd?

You can't make this stuff up, folks. Keep it coming, Todd. I love every word
you write.

Matthew Groves
Kearney, Nebraska

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On Sep 14, 2005, at 12:34 PM, Wesley G. wrote:
     [snip, per FAQ]
>  My anvil rings like a bell, so I wrapped a ten foot heavy chain  
> around it and that silenced it very well.

     Geez, Wes.  Must be a small chain or a big anvil.
     My stubby 150lb. William Foster anvil, made in 1828, does not  
ring.  Last summer I snagged a fairly new "Shaper" brand anvil, seen at:
http://wdynamic.com/galoots/4images/details.php?image_id=2203
It is also 150lb., but has a much narrower base and a lot of  
unsupported steel at both heel and horn.  I think that's why it rings  
like a d*@n bell when naked.  As Wes says, you're supposed to be  
hitting the workpiece, not the anvil, but there is still some  
ringing.  The simple solution is to stick a couple or few small  
magnets to the underside.  Even some of the flexible rubberized  
magnet material that small signs and refrigerator magnets are made of  
will work.  The magnetism itself doesn't do anything, but the  
dampening effect on the vibrations, as they encounter another piece  
of material.  Sort of like grabbing a cymbal with your hand to stop  
the ring.
     Works for me.
         Tom Holloway

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Tom H. wondered what my anvil looked like...
Its a WWII vintage Arm and Hammer, weighing a slightly rotund #378. Not 
huge, but not small.
It just sits on the stump, so that doesn't dampen the sound at all. The 
chain is a must.
I've got a picture of it down near the bottom of the page right here:
http://galootapalooza.org/CGS.html
(The chain actually hangs off a little, so my description could have 
been more accurate.)
I hadn't thought about the magnetic solution, but that sounds like a 
great idea.

On another Residential Smithing subject:
WRT Propane; I harbor no ill will to anyone with the patience to use 
coal but the forge is a tool like anything else. I like to use the tool 
that makes the most sense for the job. If you like  your neighbors and 
don't want to see how far you can push them before they think you're a 
dangerous idiot, I recommend a nice clean can of Propane. If you're the 
type who thinks yersef is cooler when yer p*ss*n off the neighbors, 
then raise yerself a pack of hyenas and set their kids a runnin' for 
their lives! They won't care what kind of forge you use then! Yeeeeee 
Hawwwww!

  I also considered tearing down the brick building, growing some 19 
century whiskers and raising a rough sawn timber frame smithy, but that 
seems a little too fancy-pants for me. I'll just use what was there 
when I found it. And there are some p*w*r t**ls available in the shop 
too, but I never touch those, no sirree. That just wouldn't be right. I 
actually prefer to hot cut chisel blanks out of leaf springs by hand, 
that way I don't have to worry about how much I eat.

Having said all that, coal fired forges are cheap, easy to transport, 
only make smoke when they start up and get real hot fast once the 
fire's going. Chances are, your neighbors wouldn't give two hoots what 
you're doing as long as it's during daylight hours. Take your choice. I 
had to forge out some 1"square legs from 1.25 x 1.5 inch steel once and 
I had the power hammer going full force at 2 AM and nobody complained. 
I must just be lucky. Or maybe my neighbors were on vacation...

Cheers,
Wes

On Sep 14, 2005, at 11:06 PM, Tom Holloway wrote:
>
>     Geez, Wes.  Must be a small chain or a big anvil.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wesley G." <wesg@e...>

> Tom H. wondered what my anvil looked like...
> Its a WWII vintage Arm and Hammer, weighing a slightly rotund #378. 
> Not huge, but not small.
> It just sits on the stump, so that doesn't dampen the sound at all. 
> The chain is a must.
> I've got a picture of it down near the bottom of the page right here:
> http://galootapalooza.org/CGS.html

Wes,

I am disappointed.  I looked through all the pictures (which were very 
interesting), but did not see a single Gerstner.  Surely, you could have 
shot at least one or two pictures in the bathroom.  I assume that's 
where you were hiding at least a few of them.  <G>

Frank Sronce (Fort Worth Armadillo Works)

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At 05:00 AM 9/14/05, you wrote:

>
> > Bill and Matt ponder smithing possibilities and approaches in
>neighborhoods...
>
>Maybe PK could enlighten us on how he handles such matters in the
>overcrowded urban sprawl where he lives?  ;^)

Phil of Alaska waits until the neighbor is gone to the store (usually 
a three day trip) and the hermit is asleep.

ot content - I took my Stanley 5.5 and 4 to the machine shop 
today.   Soles are pretty flat, although I have to polish out the 
swirly marks on 'em.

Rev. Thomas W. Hoyt
Holy Cross Lutheran Church
Warda, TX
   This is IT - Warda

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