Recently (like maybe yesterday) eBay announced they were cracking down
on shill bidding. This is where the seller's friends and relatives make
bids to jack up the price on a hot buyer.

I have noticed this happens in the eBay tool auctions quite a bit, and I
have been stung by this practice more than once.

Let's say you see something really nice that you actually need. The
practical worth of the item is $50.00 (just for the sake of example),
and it has been sitting there with a $1.00 start and no bids for a few
days. So you think, "What the heck," and you put in a $75.00 dollar bid,
believing it can never go that high.

Wham. The minute you bid, an identity with no stars or numbers next to
his handle bids you straight up to your maximum, in increments, and then
disappears.

Or, to make matters worse, somebody running an "eBay Sniper" program
whacks you out at the last minute with fifty cents.

I have been to enough auctions (actual and virtual) to be able to
distinguish a legitimate bidder from a shill bidder (they exist in both
venues). Everybody goes to auctions believing they are going to steal
something, not realizing the opposite is the case. By the time something
reaches auction, appraisals have already been done and assessments have
already been made. It is ridiculous to think you are going to get a
bargain. The auction gives you a shot at immediate possession...nothing
more, nothing less.

I collect Asian antiquities of a particular sort, and I used to go over
to London, to Christies and a few other well known auction houses like
Sothebys. These used to be very civilized affairs, with catalogues
published well in advance, and you pretty knew every other legitimate
collector or museum you were bidding against. That particular field of
collecting is rather specialized and small. But, ultimately, things just
didn't feel right. I started seeing the same people at all the auctions,
yet I knew they weren't collectors. I also knew they didn't have the
resources to call some of the prices. More to the point, they didn't
know much about what the were bidding on. So I started going elsewhere.
Well, come to find out, they were all charged with bid rigging and price
fixing...a sort of industry-wide scandal that spoke volumes about
exploitation.

Any electronic auction venue that can be "beat" with an after-market
"sniper service," which predicates its success rate on eBay's server
hang time of six seconds (the difference between when eBay says an
auction closes and when eBay's server actually closes) is an inherently
unfair venue.

Speaking personally, I would rather have the opportunity to purchase old
tools from people who actually care about old tools, know about old
tools, use old tools, and believe in honest business practices.

Just my two rupees. I lost my cents (sense) years ago.

"The world around you is a reflection of your reaction to the world
around you."

______________________________________________________________

 "Wm. Sanderson-Cassidy"  wrote....
> I have noticed this happens in the eBay tool auctions quite a bit,... you 
> put in a $75.00 dollar bid.... The minute you bid, an identity with no 
> stars or numbers next to his handle bids you straight up to your maximum, 
> in increments, and then disappears..... I have been to enough auctions 
> (actual and virtual) to be able to distinguish a legitimate bidder from a 
> shill bidder (they exist in both venues).... Everybody goes to auctions 
> believing they are going to steal something, not realizing the opposite is 
> the case. By the time something reaches auction, appraisals have already 
> been done and assessments have already been made. It is ridiculous to 
> think you are going to get a bargain. The auction gives you a shot at 
> immediate possession...nothing more, nothing less.
 ______________________________________________________________

    Well maybe someone will explain it to me but I don't see how anybody , 
the seller, a shill, or a legitmate bidder can tell on an ebay  auction what 
another bidders high bid is unless they bid past it.Sure maybe somebody 
might bid up to your high bid by chance but how do they really know that 
your high bid was $75 ....and not $100 or more? I have many times at live 
auctions paid the exact amount that I was willing to pay to and I don't 
think the consigners shills are reading my mind to know what it was....esp. 
since I line my hat with Tinfoil to prevent them from doing so!....I am sure 
shill bidding happens but I would sure like to hear how somebody "Knows" it 
is happening.I have a friend down in Fla. who bid on alot of my Ebay 
auctions because he had a Colt pistol I wanted and he took the price of the 
ebay tools off the pistols price.Worked out good for us both and I don't 
think it was unethical at all .After I got the Colt he kept bidding on my 
stuff ,[and paying  cash of course when he won] almost exclusivly because he 
knew and trusted me. My point is that i am sure it looked "Funny" to see 
this one bidder with feedback only from me bidding just on my auctions but 
of course it was legitment and he wasn't a shill.
   Disapointed to hear that it is "ridiculous to think you are going to get 
a bargin" at an auction....Gee I was a thinking  I did pretty good today 
getting that matching set of  6 Stanley 160 chisels with most still having 
the decals and never used for $25 the set ....oh well,  I had  already sort 
of figured I paid to much at $10 for that little open handle English 
dovetail saw though.....Todd 

______________________________________________________________

GG,
 Man did you see that driveby...that guy is slick. Sounds like a good day
to me, Todd
roy

______________________________________________________________

Pile of Galoots,

I don't get the shill, shrill, oh whatever deal, or the bid you up deal 
either. You don't win at an auction, cause someone outbids you, period. I 
decide my max bid and bid. You want it more, you bid $.50 more, ok by me. 
There are lots of good deals to be had, just takes patience. You want it 
now, you're gonna pay. The next time a Stanley #1 comes up, try bidding 
$20k. Think you'll get outbid? I see probably half a dozen really good tool 
buys everday on the site not to be named. Chisels, planes, saws, everything. 
You think there are no deals, you ain't lookin' very hard, or maybe you 
ain't lookin' in the right spot.

OT FS lists are far less time consuming, and I prefer keeping it in the 
family.

Now where did I stash those "EXTRA" tools.

Al Perreault
Wachusett Galoot
Westminster, MA

______________________________________________________________

 
On Wednesday, July 20, 2005, at 04:56PM, Todd Hughes <dedhorse@d...> wro 
te:

>
> "Wm. Sanderson-Cassidy"  wrote....
[snip]
> ______________________________________________________________
>
>
>    Well maybe someone will explain it to me but I don't see how anybody , 
 
>the seller, a shill, or a legitmate bidder can tell on an ebay  auction wh 
at 
>another bidders high bid is unless they bid past it.

Any number of ways. First, there is eBay's incremental bid policy, i.e. if  
something is going for X then the minimum bid is Y. If an unknown bidder fi 
res in a series of incrementals...a long series...he is probing your price, 
 obviously. Second, he can look you up on eBay, see if you bought something 
 similar, and determine what you paid.

>Sure maybe somebody 
>might bid up to your high bid by chance but how do they really know that 
 
>your high bid was $75 ....and not $100 or more? 

Because he puts in incrementals until he sees the "green check mark." If yo 
u bid against him again, he knows you are after the thing, and he repeats t 
he process.

The eBay policy states, "Put in the highest amount you are willing to pay." 
 It doesn't say, "Probe the price and bid the other guy up."

>I would sure like to hear how somebody "Knows" it 
>is happening.

Usually, real bidders wait for the last bid and come out of nowhere (unless 
 it is a "whale," and then they just demolish you at the gate and keep on d 
emolishing. I bid $125,000 on a little jade thing in Tokyo once, which was  
fair, and a guy across the room kicked it straight to $225,000, which was i 
nsane....good night, nurse). Shills, who do not work alone...they usually w 
ork in pairs, sometimes more...will nickel and dime a price back and forth  
providing what the auction trade calls "heat." If the item in question is a 
 $20.00 item, it is one thing, but in a mid ticket item, it is fairly simpl 
e to tell. On eBay you can see it in the bid history. A guy bids $1.00 on M 
onday, then disappears. He comes back on Thursday, bids $100., and gets int 
o a fast and furious nickel and dime with somebody else. Then they disappea 
r. Any consistent bidders get churned up. Finally, if a guy turns up in sev 
eral of your auctions---buying eccentric stuff only you would buy, he is ei 
ther your long lost brother or somebody has you zoned and bracketed.

That is why enabling people to track a buyer's bid and purchase history suc 
ks. "Prices realized" is fair and standard practice. Identifying who is put 
ting out the cash is an invitation to fraud, (except in the art world, wher 
e it is an invitation to larceny on a much grander scale) and eBay should b 
e sophisticated enough to realize that.

>I have a friend down in Fla. who bid on alot of my Ebay 
>auctions because he had a Colt pistol I wanted and he took the price of th 
e 
>ebay tools off the pistols price.Worked out good for us both and I don't 
 
>think it was unethical at all .

Well, you might want to read eBay's new policy on that (and no, I am not ca 
lling you unethical at all...I would not do that....I am just saying that t 
he system is being abused, and it is better to deal with knowns than unknow 
ns).

>After I got the Colt he kept bidding on my 
>stuff ,[and paying  cash of course when he won] almost exclusivly because  
he 
>knew and trusted me. My point is that i am sure it looked "Funny" to see 
 
>this one bidder with feedback only from me bidding just on my auctions but 
 
>of course it was legitment and he wasn't a shill.

That isn't the point. If you see "disappearing bidders" with ZERO feedback  
who have joined up dates in the recent past...that is what looks funny.

>   Disapointed to hear that it is "ridiculous to think you are going to ge 
t 
>a bargin" at an auction....Gee I was a thinking  I did pretty good today 
 

[snip]

It can happen, but not consistently, and it sure depends on what you buy.
Are you going to put mid to high ticket collector grade stuff out without c 
hecking very carefully and trying for top dollar? Know anybody who does? I' 
d like to meet them.

Are you going to bid $10.00, and then $10.50, and so forth on a mint condit 
ion Exhibition Brace?
How about a Stanley 1? If you know enough to want a Stanley 1, and you know 
 prices realized in the past, do you think it can be engineered away from a 
 known collector with a track record? These things regularly turn at $1,000 
. to $1,400., so why bid a $100? and then $125.00, etc., etc. Feeling lucky 
? I am not talking about farm auctions here. 

Yet, speaking of farm auctions, look at the eBay action on "barn drills." Y 
ou know, the sit-down timber boring augers. Tell me that isn't being cooked 
. These things are as common as dirt, but you are getting 15 or 20 guys in  
there slugging it out and they're going off at $300.00 or more. Strange, ho 
w if you pick out a single item like that, you see a ton of people with ZER 
O next to their name who bid on one and then disappear, never to bid anothe 
r. Then you see guys who are consistently buying, and you see them getting  
whacked time and time again.

As a seller, you know that you can see how many bidders you have versus how 
 many watchers, and you have a page hit counter. If your item got hit 50 ti 
mes and you have 37 watchers and one bidder, you know there can be some act 
ion. Some people try to jump start that action and build heat.

My whole point with the original post was to offer my opinion that guys who 
 buy old tools to use them are better off buying from other guys who buy ol 
d tools to use them, rather than from people who just buy old tools to sell 
 them, and there are precious few places where that can be done anymore. Co 
llecting is another issue.

"The world around you is a reflection of your reaction to the world around  
you."

______________________________________________________________

On Wednesday, July 20, 2005, at 06:30PM, Alan Perreault
<alan.perreault@v...> wrote:

>Pile of Galoots,

[snip]

>You want it now, you're gonna pay. The next time a Stanley #1 comes up,
>try bidding $20k. Think you'll get outbid?

That is precisely the point.

If the seller says, "this is a Stanley 1, the Holy Grail, thus and such
condition, let's get it on," you aren't in there because you suddenly
need a plane to keep in the kitchen drawer. You're in there for a
Stanley 1.

>I see probably half a dozen really good tool buys everday on the site
>not to be named. Chisels, planes, saws, everything. You think there are
>no deals, you ain't lookin' very hard, or maybe you ain't lookin' in
>the right spot.

Or not after the same things.

>
>OT FS lists are far less time consuming, and I prefer keeping it in
>the family.
>
>Now where did I stash those "EXTRA" tools.
>
>Al Perreault Wachusett Galoot Westminster, MA
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
>
>       To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>            http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/oldtools.html
>
>

"The world around you is a reflection of your reaction to the world
around you."

______________________________________________________________

I agree with Al. I've purchased some very nice and inexpensive
(sometimes) tools on the 'bay. I agree that shilling may happen but it
doesn't seem to be prevalent. In fact the prices for timber framing tools
(my hobby/ obsession) seem to ebb and flow with the seasons. And yes,
I've bid an item up to see where the other bidder was at. I have a price
in mind and will bid up to that price but no further. If the other bidder
is still in at that point I walk away. And Al is absolutely correct in
saying the deals are there IF you look for them. It would be great if
there were deals galore but market demand drives the price.  I've sold
many items on there as well, and have found that most buyers are honest
and courteous people. Maybe a few are playing a game but just stick with
a price you can live with, don't go wild and you will win some and lose
some.

I took the plunge recently in buying a large lot of planes, and would
probably be classified as a dealer. But I still cruise the 'bay in search
of  that certain item that I'll never find around my neck of the woods.
And so far I've not had a bad experience until today when a seller did a
bait and switch on me. But that is one bad experience out of 150
transactions.
All in all not a bad record considering how anonymous transactions
normally are.

BTW, how about a bark of Galoots?

David 
Still trying to finish cleaning 45's and 55's in central MD

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 21:28:16 -0400 "Alan Perreault"
<alan.perreault@v...> writes:
> Pile of Galoots,
> 
> I don't get the shill, shrill, oh whatever deal, or the bid you up 
> deal 
> either. You don't win at an auction, cause someone outbids you, 
> period. I 
> decide my max bid and bid. You want it more, you bid $.50 more, ok 
> by me. 
> There are lots of good deals to be had, just takes patience. You 
> want it 
> now, you're gonna pay. The next time a Stanley #1 comes up, try 
> bidding 
> $20k. Think you'll get outbid? I see probably half a dozen really 
> good tool 
> buys everday on the site not to be named. Chisels, planes, saws, 
> everything. 
> You think there are no deals, you ain't lookin' very hard, or maybe 
> you 
> ain't lookin' in the right spot.
> 
> OT FS lists are far less time consuming, and I prefer keeping it in 
> the 
> family.
> 
> Now where did I stash those "EXTRA" tools.
> 
> Al Perreault
> Wachusett Galoot
> Westminster, MA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________________
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> 
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>     http://www.brendlers.net/oldtools/oldtools.html
> 
> 

______________________________________________________________

Wm. Sanderson-Cassidy wrote:
> I have been to enough auctions (actual and virtual) to be able to
> distinguish a legitimate bidder from a shill bidder (they exist in
> both venues). Everybody goes to auctions believing they are going to
> steal something, not realizing the opposite is the case. By the time
> something reaches auction, appraisals have already been done and
> assessments have already been made. It is ridiculous to think you are
> going to get a bargain. The auction gives you a shot at immediate
> possession...nothing more, nothing less.
>

Large, specialist auctions with expert appraisals, catalogues, publicity
dah-di-dah - you're most likely right.

Small, weekly auctions, with "stuff" in box lots - I do just fine. I can
out "appraise" most of the other people there.

You'd be amazed what turns up if you wait long enough.

    BugBear

______________________________________________________________