OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

139295 "Ken Greenberg" <ken@c...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
On 6 Dec 2004 at 16:53, Jonathan Peck wrote:

>
> I've purchased my first two pounds of shellac for which I'm told is
> probably a lifetime supply. I got 1lb. blond, 1lb. orange and two
> quarts of denatured alcohol. I didn't get any garnet, but this can be
> easily remedied with another trip down to TFWW. I'm hoping that
> shellac will be relatively odorless and I won't have any problems in
> my unventilated basement shop. Swmbo is ultrasensitive to chemical
> smells and doesn't want to see me get anymore dainbramaged than
> already am I is either.

(a little chortling) Lifetime supply? I've used more than two pounds of
shellac and the fact that I can see my breath in the shop these December
evenings strongly suggests that I am still alive. Just think of it as a
good start. Good choice of colors, I think. I have every color of
dewaxed shellac made, and blonde or superblonde plus orange covers most
bases. You will eventually want to get some garnet just to see what it
does and find out how it looks on various woods. I use it sometimes, but
less than the others.

Shellac is odorless in the sense that it smells like whatever you
dissolve it
in. In other words, your shop will smell a whole lot like denatured
    alcohol, which some of us find quite pleasant. Your wife might not.

>
> So's assuming I finish a project, what are some tips to get me started
> with shellac and how do I know which types go best with the
> color/species of wood I'm finishing? I could also use a little help
> with application and storage.

Start here, probably:

http://shellac.net/information.html

Lots of posts in the archive, but any good finishing book should tell
you what you need to know, and free to ask us when you have a question.
I like Jeff Jewitt's books, myself. It's not hard to use, and you can
fix your mistakes since the solvent (alcohol) can remove the finish even
after it has dried. One of shellac's most endearing characteristics.

As with all finishes, you tell what looks good by putting some on the
species of interest. Orange shellac over curly maple is quite nice, but
it's all subjective. Try it, but remember that it builds color a bit -
the more coats, the more color. If you're going to apply an oil
"undercoat" to enhance the grain, don't forget to do that when color
testing as well. It has a significant impact.

The best thing to tell you about storage is that you shouldn't mix up
more than you are going to need. It doesn't take long before you figure
out how much that
io. Keep it in flake form as much as you can, and I store the flakes in
    the freezer. They essentially last forever that way. Once you mix
    them up with the solvent, they will start to deteriorate. Not fast,
    but don't expect to store the stuff for six months in dissolved form
    and pick up where you left off. It'll certainly last long enough to
    finish an entire project when dissolved.

In the summer, I can just cover the flakes with alcohol in a jar and
stick it outside, especially on a 100 degree day. A bit harder this time
of year, but someone suggested buying an inexpensive coffee grinder and
grinding the flakes first. I think this is just brilliant, although it
occurs to me that the mixing ratios may change by quite a bit since you
eliminate the air space between flakes when you grind it. It's all
pretty approximate anyway. My first cut is visually 2:1 - an inch of
flakes goes in the jar, and add alcohol until you've got two inches of
it. Let this dissolve. I cut this 2:1 for brushing on initial coats
where I want a fast buildup. I cut that mixture 2:1 again for padding on
the last coats. This has worked for me for years.

There's a good deal of work on "finishing the finish" after this
part, but get the finishing books and follow what they say. Should
work out fine.

-Ken

Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404
http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list
at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm

139296 Jim Thompson <jdthompsonca@s...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
On Dec 6, 2004, at 1:53 PM, Jonathan Peck wrote:

> GG's
>
> I've purchased my first two pounds of shellac for which I'm told is 
> probably a
> lifetime supply.
>

Big snip

> So's assuming I finish a project, what are some tips to get me started 
> with
> shellac and how do I know which types go best with the color/species 
> of wood
> I'm finishing? I could also use a little help with application and 
> storage.
>

First order of business is to find out if the odor of alcohol is a 
problem for her.  That is the only odor involved with shellac. If she 
doesn't object to that odor, you are all set.

Next order of business is to mix up some shellac.  The archives have 
got to be loaded with that information.

Next, prepare some boards in the species you intend to use and try the 
different types of shellac on them to see what appeals to you. I love a 
thin coat of garnet on dark woods for color before I put any other 
finish on. Your mileage may vary.

Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA


139291 Jonathan Peck <jpeck@m...> 2004‑12‑06 getting started w/shellac
GG's

I've purchased my first two pounds of shellac for which I'm told is probably a 
lifetime supply. I got 1lb. blond, 1lb. orange and two quarts of denatured 
alcohol. I didn't get any garnet, but this can be easily remedied with another 
trip down to TFWW. I'm hoping that shellac will be relatively odorless and I 
won't have any problems in my unventilated basement shop. Swmbo is 
ultrasensitive to chemical smells and doesn't want to see me get anymore 
dainbramaged than already am I is either. 

I've located a mill about 60 miles from my house and I hope to make a visit 
for some project wood real soon. That and some vacation time to be spent at 
home over the holidays and I might actually complete a project real soon. Lord 
knows I've been fettling and restoring enough tools over the past year that 
actually completing something might bring more than a raised eyebrow and a 
sigh when I get all excited over some new tool.

So first I guess I need a little mill etiquete. They have dry or green lumber 
available with the more variety being green. For air dried S2S and S4S they 
have a moisture meeter available for my use. My choices for air dried are 
walnut, red oak, maple, black locust, sycamore. cherry, apple, ash, hickory to 
name a few and 55 more species available green. So I guess I need to have a 
good idea of what I want before I get there. I'm not sure what species are 
limited in size/thickness and so on. Perhaps I should just look for what 
appeals to me and start from there. Should I be looking for 5/4, 6/4, 8/4? 

So's assuming I finish a project, what are some tips to get me started with 
shellac and how do I know which types go best with the color/species of wood 
I'm finishing? I could also use a little help with application and storage.

Totally clueless
Jonathan


139297 "Lawrence H. Smith" <lsmith@s...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
>Shellac is odorless in the sense that it smells like whatever you dissolve it
>in. In other words, your shop will smell a whole lot like denatured alcohol,
>which some of us find quite pleasant. Your wife might not.

Given yet more bad news on benzene (often the denaturant) you might 
want to go with the expen$ive Everclear solution, or the cheap 99% 
isopropyl (propanaol) solution, rather than continue playing with 
denatured ethanol if benzene is the denaturant used.
-- 
-Lawrence H Smith, Librarian/Computarian for Buxton School and Woodworker
-lsmith@s...      Cats, Coffee, Chocolate... Vices to live by.


139314 "Gary P. Laroff" <glaroff@c...> 2004‑12‑06 RE: getting started w/shellac
Here's a few more pieces of information on shellac that conflict a bit with
previous responses.

There are two different issues that come up with benzene content in ethanol
(grain alcohol) and the subject of denaturants.  In just a good pure water
mash of grains that is distilled to separate off the ethanol, some rules of
chemistry define that the best distillation will yield 95% ethanol and 5%
water.  That is essentially the 95% alcohol = 190 proof "moonshine".  If
diluted, you could drink it safely.  This would make a terrible solvent for
alcohol where you would like zero water.

For some chemistry applications, one would want to buy 99.99% alcohol.  To
distill alcohol/water mixtures to get nearly pure alcohol, benzene is added
to the mix.  It is then possible to distill off a mixture of 99.99+% alcohol
and less than 0.01% benzene with essentially no water.  This is not safe to
drink, although college students try it every year, and can cause blindness.
The benzene is indeed poisonous, but is not in a high enough concentration
to be a true denaturant.  If you care to, you can remove the benzene.  That
is why this alcohol usually comes with a liquor seal and heavy taxation.
The small amount of benzene is harmless when it evaporates as in shellac
finishing.  The most common denaturant to both make the alcohol poisonous
and very difficult to purify back to drinking alcohol is methanol = wood
alcohol.  Most borg-like stores sell ethanol denatured with methanol and
state on the can that methanol is included.  Most woodworkers use this
alcohol to dissolve shellac although the alcohol from Hock and others will
be guaranteed not to include water.

If you are going to brush shellac on medium to large surfaces and not just
tool handles, I happen to like Behkol from Behlens.  It includes anhydrous
ethanol and some isobutanol.  It smells very much like denatured alcohol and
goes on real smooooth.

When dissolving shellac flakes in alcohol, the more concentrated you make
it, the longer it will take to dissolve.  Heat helps and you might be
tempted to do this, but do not put the container on the stove or even in a
double boiler.  It can catch on fire or explode.  There is a similar
solution that works and is relatively safe, especially if you have an
electric stove or hotplate.

Try to dissolve the flakes in alcohol in a glass container (jar).  When not
stirring it, keep the jar capped.  Heat a small pot of water on the stove to
around boiling.  Remove the pot and put in on a safe surface away from the
stove.  Put the uncovered jar in the hot water and stir the contents.
Repeat as frequently as you have the patience for, removing the jar from the
water before reheating the water.  Make sure to keep the jar away from the
stove.

It might be a bit quicker to reduce the flakes to smaller sizes in a
perfectly clean coffee grinder borrowed from a neighbor, but this really
isn't necessary if you warm and stir as above.

Gary Laroff, who got his doctorate in chemistry doing research with
alcohols.


139302 Ken Meltsner <meltsner@g...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
Different products, different denaturants.  They might look at you
funny if you start sniffing the containers, but the label is often a
clue.  I buy the cheap stuff with 4% or less methanol.  Benzene is a
known carcinogen, so I'm not sure whether they use it to denature 200
proof (100%) alcohol these days.  VWR lists a bunch of denaturing
additions for ethanol, but I don't know what's used by Ron Hock, for
example.

There's no real point in paying the premium for potable 190 proof
alcohol, but it should be free of poisonous additions.

Other bits:

The highest potable alcohol you can buy is 190 proof or 95% alcohol +
5% water.  It's really hard to get 200 proof undenatured alcohol
because it has such a strong affinity for water.

The other good stuff for solvent use is isopropyl alcohol -- you need
the 99% pure stuff, not the 70% (or less) rubbing alcohol stock.  It
evaporates slower than ethanol, I think.

Ken Meltsner


139313 Charlie Rodgers <crodgers3163@c...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
Ken Meltsner wrote:

>snip
>
>The other good stuff for solvent use is isopropyl alcohol -- you need
>the 99% pure stuff, not the 70% (or less) rubbing alcohol stock.  It
>evaporates slower than ethanol, I think.
>
>  
>
Jonathan:
  I buy the isopropl at the local janatorial supply outlet (actually 
labled as anhydrous) for ~$8/gal.
I consider it a good buy.  It has (to me) significantly less odor than 
denatured that I get at the
borg.  If the denatured odor isn't a problem for your wife, it will dry 
faster and dissolve the
flakes faster than the iso.  If you're doing a large piece, mix the iso 
and denatured 50/50 to
slow down drying time and avoid lap marks.
my 2 cents worth.
Charlie Rodgers  who has a just-mixed pint of buttonlac ready to go on a 
small side table
Clinton, Maryland


139316 Ken Meltsner <meltsner@g...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 18:38:36 -0800, Gary P. Laroff  wrote:
> Here's a few more pieces of information on shellac that conflict a bit with
> previous responses.

Thank goodness for a gen-yoo-wine expert.  My knowledge is hazy
(acquired during an ethanol testing session with a ChemE senior  who
found an interesting, but unauthorized way to use up her remaining 190
proof, tax free research materials), as well as second-hand.  Good to
hear that the benzene isn't enough to cause strange mutations and six
fingered hands, which would mean that plane and saw totes would need
to be redesigned.

I like both Hock's pure ethanol and Behkol quite a bit.  I don't like
the price.  I'll look into the anhydrous isopropyl since I don't mind
the way it smells and I'm used to it from days of cleaning tape and
disk drives.

The amount of methanol in "shellac thinner" definitely varies -- one
brand had quite a bit, another was stated to have less than 4%.  The
<4% didn't smell too bad.  In contrast, Bullseye shellac smells like
methanol without < 4% ethanol....

I've looked at buying various kinds of lab alcohol, but that's
definitely not a bargain at $30 and up a gallon.

Don't forget to filter the shellac/alcohol mix.  Mr. Hock's fine
flakes had some insoluble residue, as expected.  I used latex paint
filters from my local Ace, but I've heard that cheesecloth might be
better and finer.

Homestead Finishing sells premixed shellac/alcohol concentrate (5 lb
cut) as do a couple of other finishing supply companies.

Ken Meltsner


139315 Jonathan Peck <jpeck@m...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
>Lots of posts in the archive, but any good finishing book should tell
>you what you need to know, and free to ask us when you have a question.

Thanks to all....I seem to have caught the bug...the lac bug that is.
I've spent the last year and whatever soaking up the knowlege here on
the porch. Absorbing all I can about tools and their history, what they
do, how they work, what to look for, and how to clean, restore and
fettle them. This has been all consuming and the rest of my time has
been spent lapping the backs of irons sharpening and misc. honey do's.
The whole time Shellac has been mocking me, like I might ever build
anything, and all the great postings on the subject have gone
by...barely read much less understood....I was on oldtools overload and
can now finally breath as the slope levels out.

The other drawback has been the lack of a source of affordable lumber in
species that are attractive and enjoyable to work with....read - I've
been in True Value lumber yard heck. Everytime I've gotten on the phone
with a mill to ask questions about mail order lumber I've hung up feling
like an idiot, not knowing the language or the right questions to ask
and have been to insecure to place an order.

Thanks to all of your great contributions, I'm now going through the
archives absorbing whatever I can on how to work shellac - OK so I'm
starting at 1996 and have a ton of reading to do. So this is a huge
topic, but it's starting to make sense. I'm also hoping that a trip to a
local mill in Oyster Bay that I've found will help with my education
alot more than dealing with the chuckleheads at the true value.

So can anyone explain the mixing of shellac and the cuts/ratios in real
simple terms? Do I start with a thin cut and rub on, use pumice or a
thick cut brushed on and sand down to fill the pores? Any tips for
dealing with the mill will also be appreciated

Thanks Jonathan

139325 "Ken Greenberg" <ken@c...> 2004‑12‑06 Re: getting started w/shellac
On 6 Dec 2004 at 22:02, Jonathan Peck wrote:

> So can anyone explain the mixing of shellac and the cuts/ratios in
> real simple terms? Do I start with a thin cut and rub on, use pumice
> or a thick cut brushed on and sand down to fill the pores? Any tips
> for dealing with the mill will also be appreciated

I discussed mixing in my last post, so I'll try to address application
here. There are really three phases to shellac application, and we're
talking the simple way of doing things, not getting into French
polishing or the like. In simple terms:

1) Build up a nice, thick, mostly even amount of shellac.
2) Let it sit for a week to cure.
3) Level and polish the finish

Phase 2 is the easy part.

Phase 1 is mostly concerned with building the finish. Assuming you have
prepped the wood and possibly applied a coat of some oil (I just use BLO
these days), you want to apply enough coats to build up one thick one.
Because of the nature of shellac, the coats are additive - each one
melts into and thickens the coat before it. This is quite unlike oil
based finishes, which react (usually with air) to form a surface that
does not dissolve with each new coat.

I'll explain what I do, but my advice remains the same - buy a book and
read it first. That's the best way to learn this stuff. If something in
the book confuses you, we'll get you through it. Read first, ask
questions later - it's really the best way.

Being a person with a short attention span, I tend to brush on the first
few coats to get going pretty quickly. After that, I pad on additional
coats until I think I have enough on there. You never sand between coats
with shellac. The thing to remember is that you are building a finish
that isn't going to be level yet, and you will (in phase 3) level it by
sanding it. So you have to get a pretty good thickness going. Luckily,
the stuff is so thin when you pad it on that it dries very quickly, and
you could easily do half a dozen coats in an afternoon on something
small like a box. Two brush coats and about six pad coats is probably
what I do on average, but it's pretty intuitive after you've done it a
while to know when you have "enough" on there.

When you have enough shellac on the surface and you have let it cure for
a week, you level it by running through increasingly fine grits of
wet-dry paper. It's kind of like scary sharp for finishes, although you
start with something fairly fine like 400 grit. If I see obvious drips I
start with 320, nothing coarser. Use a block of something for backing
and go over all the surfaces. The coarser grits really do the leveling,
taking off the high spots. The finer grits remove the scratches from the
coarser grits. At the start of this process, the surface will be shiny.
As you sand it should become uniformly dull. Any spots that still shine
mean you have a relatively low spot that needs to be reached and you
have to keep going. If you inadvertently remove all the shellac and get
down to bare wood, it means either you did a poor job of applying it to
about the same thickness everywhere or you stopped too soon and didn't
get enough coats on there. Not a problem really, just go back and apply
more, but you still have to re-do phase 2. This might happen the first
few times, just don't panic. Eventually you get a better feel for the
stuff and it won't happen any more.

When you get to the last grit (I go to about 1000 because that's usually
what I have around), you are done with the leveling and have effectively
moved into the polishing. You now switch over to finer abrasives -
pumice first, then rottenstone. I apply these with a cloth and use
mineral oil as a lubricant, but there are other choices. Basically
you're making a paste and rubbing all over the finish to remove the rest
of the scratches. I used to just do this with rottenstone, but it works
better with pumice first. You're still doing the same thing, using finer
abrasives to remove scratches until you reach a point where you can't
see them anymore.

This will give you a pretty reflective finish, if that's what you
want. There are ways to make it not so shiny. You have to read the
book for that one.

Did I mention you should go buy a book?

-Ken

Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404
http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list
at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm

139342 Bill Kasper <dragonlist@u...> 2004‑12‑07 Re: getting started w/shellac
'course, you could always measure your measures, then grind, then mix.  
your ratio would be the same as for shellac flakes, but you'd gain the 
benefits of the grind.

b

On Dec 6, 2004, at 2:43 PM, Ken Greenberg wrote:

> I think this is just brilliant, although it occurs to me that the 
> mixing
> ratios may change by quite a bit since you eliminate the air space 
> between
> flakes when you grind it.


139345 Ron Hock <ron@h...> 2004‑12‑07 Re: getting started w/shellac
Denaturants are specified based on the work being done. Our anhydrous 
alcohol that we sell for shellac is denatured with 10% isopropanol and 
5% methanol. JFYI.

> Given yet more bad news on benzene (often the denaturant) you might want 
> to go with the expen$ive Everclear solution, or the cheap 99% isopropyl 
> (propanaol) solution, rather than continue playing with denatured 
> ethanol if benzene is the denaturant used.

-- 
Ron Hock
HOCK TOOLS  www.hocktools.com
16650 Mitchell Creek Dr.  Fort Bragg, CA  95437
(707) 964-2782  toll free: (888) 282-5233  fax: (707) 964-7816


139335 "Rodgers Charles" <rodgers_charles@b...> 2004‑12‑07 Re: getting started w/shellac
Jonathan Peck wrote:

> So can anyone explain the mixing of shellac and the cuts/ratios in
> real simple terms? Do I start with a thin cut and rub on, use pumice
> or a thick cut brushed on and sand down to fill the pores? Any tips
> for dealing with the mill will also be appreciated
>
Jonathan: You've been given a lot of good advice but I didn't notice
anyone answering your direct question re: the cuts. The weight cited (1
pound, 2 pound, 3 pound, etc) refers to the amount (in pounds, eh)
added to a gallon of solvent. I was reluctant at first, so I actually
bought a postage scale and would weigh out the flakes, calculate the
amount of solvent and mix it up. It was more like high school chemistry
than woodworking, but once I got a feel for it, I stored the scale. Now
I just guesstimate. I usually mix by the rule of thumb already given -
in a straight-sided jar (jelly, jam, pickle, olive, etc) I put twice as
much solvent as flakes. I've even gone so far as to put a piece of
masking tape vertically on the jar and marking 1" and 2" spots. Fill to
1" with flakes, 2" with solvent. I've found this mix builds pretty fast
and I can cut it 50/50 with solvent for the initial spit coat. I've
never ground up the flakes but I did recently put the buttonlac
'buttons' in a ziploc bag and bang it on the benchtop until they broke
up into little pieces. I heat mine by sitting the jar on the clothes
dryer (seems like it's always running) and shaking it every time I
think of it. Takes anywhere from a couple days to a week (depending on
how many shakes I give it). One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this
thread but several times in the past: Shellac is a terrific adhesive. I
learned the hard way that my method will also force the mixture into
the threads of the jar's lid and seal it-but good. I wound up with a
he!! of a mess when a jar I was trying to open broke. I now keep a roll
of waxed paper handy. I tear off a piece about twice as long and the
jar's diameter and fold it up in 4ths. I put it over the jar's top
before putting on the lid. Depending on how many times I open & close
the jar, I may replace it before throwing the jar out. Since my shop
time and project completion rate are sporadic, I try to mix only what I
need for a project. I don't bother to try and clean the jar. After I've
finished the project (pun intended) I just leave the jar open until the
shellac dries and then toss it. If I had the need, I guess I could
marry off the small amounts and save it to coat the ends of green
logs(?). An alternate method of filling pores (given to me by Paul
Radovanic) was when I was making the mission dining table. Oak is a
very porous wood and filling it with multiple coats of shellac would
have had me at it 'til the cows came home, so he recommended the
following: Slather it with BLO and then put on a spit coat of ~1# cut
super blonde. Knock down the nibs using a card scraper with a very
light touch. I then put on two applications of Por-O-Pac filler
darkened with some burnt umber, let it cure for a few days and sealed
it with some 2# super blonde. Since I expected it to get some pretty
heavy use, I finished the top with two coats of McCloskeys tabletop
varnish, sanded between coats and rubbed out with 3M synthetic steel
wool using Murphy's Oil soap as the lubricant (a tip from Jeff Jewitt).
Both sides of the top got the same finish but I didn't bother to rub
out the underside. The table base and chairs all received just shellac
(5 or 6 brushed coats). BTW, I'm not good enough to avoid drips and
runs on the edges, so (another tip from Paul Rad) I use my finger to
clean them up. Brush the shellac on a horizontal surface and then run
my finger along the edge/vertical surface to smooth the excess. I still
have an old pair of jeans with a shiny spot on the left thigh ;-) HTH,
YMMV... Charlie Rodgers Clinton, Maryland

139348 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2004‑12‑07 Re: getting started w/shellac
Oops, gotta trun HTML off

Kirk Eppler wrote:

> I'll follow up Ken G's post with the admonish to get Jeff Jewitt's
> book Hand Applied Finishes. He gives a great dissertation on mixing
> and applying shellac. After reading his book, I felt confident enough
> to try to build a mission table, since I was comfortable with being
> able to finish it in some semblance of style.
>
> I've used the 2 -1 alcohol to flakes ratio, and it works OK. Grinding
> does foul up the ration. I bought an out of date postage scale, and it
> works great for mixing. Since someone else explained the cuts while I
> was typing, I'll spare my fingers.
>
> Padding shellac is easy, fast etc, and relatively idiot proof, if you
> follow the directions in the book.
>
> Has anyone told you to buy a book yet. I believe Jeff's book is better
> than the archives as far as applying, since he has photos instead of
> ASCII art.
>
>
>>>Lots of posts in the archive, but any good finishing book should tell
>>>you what you need to know, and free to ask us when you have a
>>>question.
>>>
>>>
>>on how to work shellac - OK so I'm starting at 1996 and have a ton of
>>reading to do. So this is a huge topic, but it's starting to make
>>sense. I'm also hoping that a trip to a local mill in Oyster Bay that
>>I've found will help with my education alot more than dealing with the
>>chuckleheads at the true value.
>>
>>So can anyone explain the mixing of shellac and the cuts/ratios in
>>real simple terms? Do I start with a thin cut and rub on, use pumice
>>or a thick cut brushed on and sand down to fill the pores? Any tips
>>for dealing with the mill will also be appreciated
>>
>>
>
>--
>Kirk Eppler, in Half Moon Bay, with two of Jeff's books, and M
>Dresdner's the New Wood Finishing Books as irreplaceble in my library.
>Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g...
>

--
Kirk Eppler
(650) 225-3911 Process Development Engineering Eppler.Kirk@g...

139326 "Peter Williams" <williamsp@n...> 2004‑12‑07 RE: getting started w/shellac
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence H. Smith [mailto:lsmith@s...]
> 
> Given yet more bad news on benzene (often the denaturant)

Whoa there, "Benzene"?
I don't think so. Methanol is the usual denaturant I think.

Benzene is ye olde carcinogenic petrol (gasoline) additive.

-- 
Peter Williams 


139328 "Peter Williams" <williamsp@n...> 2004‑12‑07 RE: getting started w/shellac
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary P. Laroff [mailto:glaroff@c...]
> To distill alcohol/water mixtures to get nearly pure alcohol, 
> benzene is added to the mix.

Thanks for clearing up the Benzene thing Gary.
I didn't know that it was used in alcohol distillation at all.

-- 
Peter Williams 


139363 Darrell & Kathy <larchmont@s...> 2004‑12‑07 Re: getting started w/shellac
  Jonathan Peck wrote and I snipped mercilessly:

> I've purchased my first two pounds of shellac 
> So's assuming I finish a project, what are some 
 > tips to get me started with shellac

If yer wife doesn't like nasty smells you might want to try
the isopropyl alcohol.  It's quite mild compared to some of
the other stuff I've used.

And for sheer gizmotic fun you can't beat a home made
magnetic stirrer to whip up yer shellac.  I built one
from a discarded 5 1/4 inch floppy drive and a couple
of those LV rare earth magnets.

I've read about shellac application in a number of places.
Most will either brush or wipe it on.  The brush afflictionados
will tell you that you need a very $pecial brush.  Me, I use a
nasty cheap 4-bit "disposable" brush.  It's lasted through a
dozen projects and is still going strong.  For wiping shellac
I use an old sock.  I hope you will now realize that shellac
is darn near fool proof.  If *I* can get away with such crude
and sloppy methods then with any amount of care you should
encounter no difficulties.

Darrell
... today I sent off my Galoot Santa gift which, amongst
other things, included one of those floppy-drive shellac
stirrers.  Here's hoping the Homeland Security folks don't
destroy it in a paranoid fenzy.  I bet it looks pretty
dubious through an xray machine ;^)

-- 
Darrell
Oakville ON
Wood Hoarder, Blade Sharpener, and Occasional Tool User


139386 "Ken Greenberg" <ken@c...> 2004‑12‑08 Re: getting started w/shellac
On 8 Dec 2004 at 8:27, Hans A. Muller wrote:

> Good and clear description Ken, of what to do to get that nice finish.
> One question: you talk about 'wet and dry' sandpaper. I suppose you
> use it dry? Hans who saw 60 years ago his grandfather do this, but did
> not pay enough attention to it....

No, actually I always use it wet. I use mineral oil as a lubricant, but
I seem to recall that Jeff Jewitt recommends just using water. Not awake
enough yet to look it up quite yet.

I use a cork block as a backer, or for something small just wrap it
around a wine cork if I can find a straight one (lots have depressions
from where they were in the bottle). Sometimes I have to go through many
bottles of wine just to find the right cork though...

-Ken

Ken Greenberg (ken@c...) 667 Brush Creek Rd., Santa Rosa, CA 95404
http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/wood.htm Visit the oldtools book list
at http://www.calast.com/personal/ken/booklist.htm

139392 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@i...> 2004‑12‑08 Re: getting started w/shellac
GG's

* Ken Greenberg  [2004-Dec-08 06:45 AKST]:
> On 8 Dec 2004 at 8:27, Hans A. Muller wrote:
> > Good and clear description Ken, of what to do to get that nice 
> > finish. One question: you talk about 'wet and dry' sandpaper. I 
> > suppose you use it dry?
> 
> No, actually I always use it wet. I use mineral oil as a lubricant, 
> but I seem to recall that Jeff Jewitt recommends just using water.

I use water with a bit of dish washing detergent added.  It works really 
well as a lubricant, to the point that I can sand within 12 hours of my 
last shellac application if I'm careful.

On a related note, I've used the overall technique that Ken discusses 
(build up a nice thick finish, let it dry for several days, sand down to 
a fine grit, polish, wax), but I've also used a quicker version when I 
didn't want a perfectly flat, glossy finish like you'll get with the 
first technique.

For example, I made a "monastery table" (that's what Nahm called it when 
he made it) using some spruce planks that came rough cut with my house 
siding.  It was a working table, so I wasn't particularly careful about 
tear out (brutal in white spruce near knots, FYI) or getting things flat.  
A glassy smooth finish didn't make sense here.

In these circumstances, I brush on a few coats of a 2# (give or take) 
cut of shellac, let it dry for 12 - 24 hours, then lightly wet sand with 
water and a bit of dish washing detergent using 320 grit wet dry 
sandpaper on a rubber block.  Wipe off the dust and liquid, let dry for 
an hour or so, wipe again, and then apply another couple coats of 
shellac.  I continue this general process (building the finish by 
brushing on shellac, lightly wet sanding before each shellac session) 
until I've got a nice even, thick coating.  In the last session, I 
typically sand as usual, and then carefully apply one final, thinned 
coat (1#, perhaps) just to cover the sanding marks.  Let it dry for 24 
hours, wax and I'm done.

Keep in mind that the water and detergent is only here to keep the 
shellac dust from collecting on the sandpaper.  If you see areas on the 
sandpaper with clots of shellac, you're either not using enough liquid, 
or the finish hasn't dried enough and you need to wait longer.

Many shellac experts will say that you really only need to sand at the 
very end because shellac dissolves itself, so what you're really trying 
to do is build a nice thick, potentially imperfect, layer, and then 
flatten and polish it at the very end.  They're right, but I find that 
my brushing technique has consistent flaws that are repeated in each 
layer, so periodically sanding throughout the process removes these 
imperfections as I go, resulting in a lot less overall work.

To each his own.  As others have mentioned, one of many great things 
about shellac is that it is really easy to fix if something goes awry.

Also (last comment, I promise), if you're using denatured alcohol and 
you've got more than one hardware store in your community, sniff the can 
before you buy it.  I've found that different manufacturers denature 
their alcohol in different ways, and some are much better smelling than 
others.  In my town, the TrueValue affiliate sells a variety that's much 
sweeter smelling than the headache-inducing version that I got at the 
Borg.

Heh, two pounds as a lifetime supply. . .

Chris, discouraged last night by the warping of a door stile that I'll 
need to start over from scratch.
-- 
Christopher S. Swingley   University of Alaska Fairbanks
cswingle@i...     http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/

OldTools Searchable Archive: 
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139379 "Hans A. Muller" <viaconsu@t...> 2004‑12‑08 Re: getting started w/shellac
Good and clear description Ken, of what to do to get that nice finish.
One question: you talk about 'wet and dry' sandpaper. I suppose you use
it dry? Hans who saw 60 years ago his grandfather do this, but did not
pay enough attention to it....

139388 Ken Meltsner <meltsner@g...> 2004‑12‑08 Re: getting started w/shellac
I finished four bookcase backs (big flat panels of white oak ply)
recently.  I used Behlen's Wool Lube (which appears to be a very
concentrated detergent, not an oil -- the suggestion of Murphy's Oil
Soap might be on target) on 400 grit sandpaper (with a teeny bit of
water now and then) for rubbing out the shellac.

 And then I used Johnson's Paste Wax (the old-fashioned stuff -- I
have a can for my Shopsmith tables) with a pad of the ultra fine
synthetic steel wool.  Works well, in my opinion, and I end up with a
satin finish.

Finish was a light mission oak, slightly yellow/amber to match
existing furniture:

*  Medium or light walnut Watco danish oil

*  1 coat garnet shellac

*  several coats blonde shellac

*  Level with 400 grit (rubber sanding block)

*  Smooth with synthetic steel wool (big wad)

It does have a few shiny spots where the pores are particularly deep,
but the wax evens that up.

Worked pretty well, even though I didn't need a table top quality
finish.  Shellac, as most of us have figured out, is really forgiving.

Ken



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