(Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know
offline, and I'll refrain in the future.)

While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I
come across the following page:
http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html

My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a
Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.

Thanks,

Michael

__________________________________
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Having done those verboten things, I'll take a SWAG at it...

First, do not pry. Well, this one ought to be obvious, but that didn't stop
me. You will very often splinter your face edge as the chisel comes up out
of the valley you are prying from. Ugly.

The other thing noted in the graphic is trying to come in from the end (and
fairly deep in the graphic although this can go awry even on a shallow
attempt). What sometimes happens is the chisel follows the grain and unless
you have already gone deep enough at the shoulder, it is pretty easy to chip
out a quite large chunk.

Do I continue to do those things....of course I do, although I've botched
enough with the prying to tone that down. I do frequently clean out waste
coming in from the end grain, but am careful to do it only with very shallow
passes no deeper that I've already plunged at the shoulder.

And as I understand it, technique questions are quite fair game!!!

Cheers,

Jim E #2 in charming and moderately historic Cedarburg, WI USA  

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Campbell [mailto:michael_s_campbell@y...] 
Subject: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question

(Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know offline, and
I'll refrain in the future.)

While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I come
across the following page:
http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html

My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a Marc Adams
seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.

Darn TOOTIN a handtool technique question is allowed here! That is one
of the great disservices of off-topic posting and subsequent clamp-downs
by the mom's. It cast a pall of silence over the list. Witness all of
Paddy's PRIVATE responses to an on-topic request for advice. So please,
galoots, ask your on topic questions, and PLEASE galoots, respond to on-
topic questions On-List!

--
-Chris Schwartz, Ex-Brewer Stealth #97 Silver Spring, MD

> (Is a "technique" question allowed here? If not, let me know offline,
> and I'll refrain in the future.)
>
>

"Michael Campbell" <michael_s_campbell@y...> wrote:
> (Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know
> offline, and I'll refrain in the future.)
> 
> While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I
> come across the following page:
> http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html
> 
> My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
> 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a
> Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.

It's really easy to pop a larger-than-expected chunk of wood off. 

Don't ask me how I know this. :)

Pete

Ahoy the porch, It appears to me, that they are showing  dangerous moves
that will jeopardize the finished piece. Making the cuts that are X ed out
could split the piece that is to remain. Prying and long horizontal cuts are
risky.The whole point of wasting out the center is to leave the edges crisp
and clean.
Ketch, Yawl, Schooner or Later  Vern
www.schoonerwoodworks.com
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say,  a fool speaks because
he has to say something." Socrates

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Campbell" <michael_s_campbell@y...>
To: "oldtools" <oldtools@c...>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 6:26 AM
Subject: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question

> (Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know
> offline, and I'll refrain in the future.)
>
> While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I
> come across the following page:
> http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html
>
> My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
> 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a
> Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>     http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools
>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Campbell" <michael_s_campbell@y...>

> (Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know
> offline, and I'll refrain in the future.)

Of course!  It's all about the tools.  And a BIG part of that is
to know how to use them effectively and efficiently, as they
were designed to be used.  Which is IME the most rewarding of
it all.  

> My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
> 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a
> Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.

Been a while since my last dovetail, mainly due to lack of a 
gar^H^H^Hworkshop...  Here goes anyway.
From what I remember and what I can read off that site:

One of the things to watch out when cutting into end grain
is to avoid splitting the wood.  If you pry rather than snap off,
then you increase the chance of a split that will ruin the entire 
thing (or at the very least challenge your mending skills).  
The prior steps to those are to actually make stop cuts to allow the 
snap.  Those are the most important, IMHO.  Too light a stop cut and 
you won't be able to snap off from the other end.  Too deep and you 
incur the risk of the final picture in that series, a bevelled edge.  
It's gotta be just right.  Only practice can tell how far.
The "snap" itself is not really a fast action like the word suggests.  
If the stop cut behind it is the right depth and the amount to be snapped 
off is just right, then the whole thing happens by itself and there is no 
need for fast or sudden movements.  That's were it can be easily confused
with a pry.  Like in most hand tool jobs in woodworking, easy does it.

Cheers
Nuno Souto, in sunny Sydney Australia
dbvision@o...

Michael, 

I'm not a dovetail expert, but another difference I see is the way 
he has the bevel of the chisel pointed.  Chisels tend to turn away 
from their bevel, and I think that he is making use of this trait.

Gary K
(too) Close to Buffalo NY
where the high temperature recently would have
been a delightful body mass index

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Campbell" <michael_s_campbell@y...>
To: "oldtools" <oldtools@c...>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 9:26 AM
Subject: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question

> (Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know
> offline, and I'll refrain in the future.)
> 
> While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I
> come across the following page:
> http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html
> 
> My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
> 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a
> Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> 
> Archive: http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/
> To unsubscribe or change options, use the web interface:
>     http://galoots.law.cornell.edu:81/read/?forum=oldtools

--- kjworz@c... wrote:
> 
> Darn TOOTIN a handtool technique question is allowed here!  

I still dunno what the dynamic is, whereupon folks prefer to answer
technique/experience questions off-list.  Concern that their technique - as in
the actual way they work wood - will be derided, scoffed at, scorned, etc?  Not
on this list. :) BTW, I've gotten oodles more advice (highly appreciated) in
the mantle thread.  I'll post a summary.

To the point, I have found it utterly indispensible to cut to the line.  If I
mark accurately (I prefer a single bevel knife) and split the line, life is
ever so much better.  If I'm feeling especially industrious, I'll cut away the
waste with a coping saw, which makes paring a shoulders a bit less work (and
quieter).

For those of you who think their early efforts at dovetails sucked, I offer a
webpage as a manner of cautionary tale (gory screw-up, Steve).

http://www.klownhammer.org/dovetails

Paddy - remembering to apply extra sunblock for today's noontime outdoor swim.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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Patrick Olguin wrote:

> --- kjworz@c... wrote:
>
>>Darn TOOTIN a handtool technique question is allowed here!
>
>
> I still dunno what the dynamic is, whereupon folks prefer to answer
> technique/experience questions off-list. Concern that their technique
> - as in the actual way they work wood - will be derided, scoffed at,
> scorned, etc? Not on this list. :) BTW, I've gotten oodles more advice
> (highly appreciated) in the mantle thread. I'll post a summary.

I hope I didn't imply that I would prefer offlist responses, as that was
not my intent. What I meant was that if technique questions were
off-charter, let me know THAT fact offlist and I would refrain in the
future. If they are, as it turns out, ON charter, by all means let the
questions, answers, advice, et. al. fly!

When I first tried cutting dovetails, I used to sneak up on 'em with a
chisel.  Then an article by Ian Kirby shamed me into learning to cut to
the line.  As persnickety as he seems to be, I owe him one for that.

Blake

I go at least as far at a reality/sanity check...I still have my first saw
till and a small rack for small backsaws (lumping all together) hanging on
the wall... The till was a combination of pine and mdf (really!) and the
rack of poplar. Some of the crudest work I've ever done. I think my first
junior high shop project 30 years ago was better. But it sure does let me
look at the current crop and sigh with relief that I'm getting better!  I
highly recommend the practice for anyone who doesn't think they are
evolving!

Oh, and BTW, 20ish, gray, with light snow today...rain mixed with snow
tomorrow. Guess I'll forego my outdoor swim at least a few days...

Cheers all,

Jim E #2 in charming and moderately historic Cedarburg, WI USA 

Paddy said (much abbreviated for bandwidth conservation):

For those of you who think their early efforts at dovetails sucked, I offer
a webpage as a manner of cautionary tale (gory screw-up, Steve).

http://www.klownhammer.org/dovetails

Paddy - remembering to apply extra sunblock for today's noontime outdoor
swim.

Paddy,

Thanks for sharing this - I feel better knowing that we all
had to learn sometime.

I think I still have you beat, though.  My first dovetails were
done in softwood crating with a pocket knife.  It looks like
a bunch of demented beavers got drunk one night.  Someday
when I've had too much myself, I'll post pictures.

Gary K
Close to Buffalo NY

----- Original Message ----- 
--snip, snip--

>
> For those of you who think their early efforts at dovetails sucked, I
offer a
> webpage as a manner of cautionary tale (gory screw-up, Steve).
>
--snip, snip--

Hi Folks,

	As I am in the process of cutting ratty dovetails for
the ten drawers in a workbench base, I will fess up to doing
the verboten steps on the page below.  Since my dovetails, after
12 years of ocassional flurries of them, have not gotten to the
"real good" stage, I won't say the fellow is wrong.  I do them
a little differently, and I bet not as fast as he does.  I make
the vertical cut, then come in horizontally and set the chisel
bevel up at a depth I suspect to be no deeper than I cut on the
vertical.  A slight pop and the chip flies out.  If you go too
shalllow on the first one, you risk driving into the wood beyond
the dovetail and lifting it up, as others have said).  If you
go too deep, then the chip does not pop out, and I reset the
chisel a little shallower.  I've tried it the way described
in the web page below, but didn't like it as well, probably
because I taught myself this slightly different way in the
beginning.
	I start on the backside(would be the inside of the drawer)
and cut 2/3's or 3/4 of the way through, and if I err on the vertical,
it is to cut in, away from the tail.  Then I turn over, and for
drawer sides(thin), the first chops often remove the remaining
wood quite cleanly, and leave a nice edge.
	One other thing to note is that if you do as I do and
come in from the end, you need to use a different(narrower) chisel 
to do the vertical, or else make two vertical cuts(what I do) with
the narrower than optimal chisel, which enhances the chances that
the vertical cuts are not perfect in appearance.  
	For me, perfect in appearance is not a big deal for
drawer dovetails, and most of the rest that I use are pretty much
hidden.  It is a great joint, even if not cut perfectly, and 
just like Paddy I can see gradual improvement over time, even
if my examples are scattered all over my house in imperfect
dressers, tables, etc.  Of course, I am also a bit lazy, and
the only lines I lay out are the depth lines and the ones
where I mark the pins from the tails.  The tails I just cut
by eye, and don't worry too much about getting the angle
perfect.  I guess I have reached the level of incompetence I
can live with on them.  Now if I could just get the drawer
fettling to go a bit smoother...

Happy dovetails, Mike Lindgren

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004, Michael Campbell wrote:

> (Is a "technique" question allowed here?  If not, let me know
> offline, and I'll refrain in the future.)
> 
> While perusing yet another "how to" site on hand cut dovetails, I
> come across the following page:
> http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html
> 
> My question is this; why are the steps marked "no!" in between steps
> 9 and 10 and between steps 14 and 15 verboten?  I am sure I saw a
> Marc Adams seminar on dovetails, and he did exactly this.
> 

GGs;

If this ground's been covered before, please accept my apologies. After
taking the time to study the disagrams here

> http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html

I think I get it. I may be slow, but it took a while to figure out that we
are looking edge-on at a board lying flat on the bench. Anyway, he's doing
two things that prohibit the "X"ed out moves: (1) he's working on a tail
board with very narrow pin spaces - too narrow to safely plunge in with a
chisel from the end, so he's going in from the top. (2) He's protecting
the surface of the adjoining tails by not levering down and hitting them -
hence the emphasis on "SNAP"ing the chip out with the bezel down. And, of
course, he's making the plunge cuts that define ends of the spaces with
the bezel toward the waste sice.

When I took Marc Adams' dovetail class, he taught us to go in from the
end. Even with the gaping spaces between tails, I think I still managed to
nick the edge of more than one tail. This approach keeps the chisel away
from the tails throughout the chopping process. I'm too much of a
knuckle-dragger to make really pretty drawers with those nice, tiny pins,
so I haven't tried his technique. But it looks sound to me.

-- 
Steve - another Kokomo galoot

A good day to all!

	I think that a few of the most important aspects of hand cutting
dovetails (the only way to do it!) is first to find a knowledgeable
teacher.  

	Years ago I used "Tage Fried" as my instructor.  I found his
books "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" excellent learning guides. He
shows many different ways to perform a given task. 

	Next, once you find a technique you want to use, stay with it
and be CONSISTENT.  Like it or not, practice makes perfect . . . there's
no way around it.  This stuff is not rocket science, anyone can do it.
I've had a brain tumor &  have attention deficit disorder, yet I'm
reasonably competent at what I do.

	Well Friends, time for me to get out of my pulpit.  Live long,
be happy!

					Your Most Humble Servant,

					Walt Henderson  (aka. The Large
Cabinetmaker)

	  

--------------------------------------------
              HENDERSON & VINCI 
      Historical Cabinetmakers & Joyners
            205 Birch Street, N.E.
      Leesburg, Virginia   20176-4521
    (703)777-3923   fax (703)777-9507

          Cabinet & Traveling Goods
 "Funerals Perform'd At the Shortest Notice"
       Member EAIA-MESDA-MWTCA-PATINA
--------------------------------------------
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Olguin [mailto:paddyolguin@y...] 
> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 12:27 PM
> To: oldtools
> Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question
> 
> SNIP

Walt & Mary Henderson wrote:
>         I think that a few of the most important aspects of hand cutting
>dovetails (the only way to do it!) is first to find a knowledgeable
>teacher.

Can I get a "Ditto!" somebody!

>         Years ago I used "Tage Fried" as my instructor.  I found his
>books "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" excellent learning guides. He
>shows many different ways to perform a given task.

I would also recommend Jim Kingshott's video on the topic.
Books are, of course, wonderful.  But --certainly speaking
for myself-- there's no substitute for *seeing* it done by
a master.

N 

: -----Original Message-----
: From: Steve from Kokomo [mailto:stjones@k...]
: Sent: 17 January 2004 13:43
: To: oldtools
: Cc: oldtools@c...
: Subject: Re: [oldtools] Hand cut dovetail question
:
:
: GGs;
:
: If this ground's been covered before, please accept my
: apologies. After
: taking the time to study the disagrams here
:
: > http://www.wood-workers.com/users/charlieb/DovetailDrawer12.html
:
: I think I get it.

Belatedly, I think there are a couple of points perhaps worth comment.

Firstly, Charlie B appears to start with a stabbed chop with the edge
directly in the line. The wedging action of the bevel will drive the
chisel towards the body of the workpiece and take the shoulder behind
the line.

The rest of the procedure for removing the waste is a commonly
recommended approach designed to avoid end-grain breakout at the final
blow (from the reverse side of the workpiece). My experience is that
this does not work, one still gets some breakout, though this fiddly
approach does reduce its extent.

Does the breakout matter? After all, end grain does not glue at all
well.

It only really matters if the innards of the joint are somehow revealed
either by sawing through it (when forming a box lid) or by planing to
taper the sides, for example or form them for decorative purposes, eg
introducing a decorative fielding. Of course some of us do not like the
idea even of hidden 'faults' in our work and for our own moral welfare,
prefer to make a virtue of fastidiousness.

On my web site two approaches are illustrated - 'Dovetailing Detailed' -
'A Practice Dovetail Joint' et seq. including waste removal with a
coping saw followed by cross-grain paring.

Secondly; 'Advice For Choppers' - Direct chopping, starting away from
the shoulder lines. In connection with this brutal but effective
tradesman's approach there's some advice about a possible pitfall
arising from end-grain breakout.

Hoping this helps,

Jeff

-- 
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email: amgron@c...
http://www.amgron.clara.net