Esteemed GG's:

I had my first go at cutting dovetails today.  I'm practicing for their
use in a tool box to be done soon.  I used Tage Frid's methods of
marking and cutting pins first then marking tails from the cut pins.  I
formed the angle by marking out 6 equal increments, etc.  I found that I
could cut the pins fairly well after a few tries but continued to have
difficulty with the tails.

I used a small DT saw of indeterminate origin (Thanks, Vlad, it cuts
very well), a marking gauge and my pocket knife followed by a fine
pencil line and blue Marples chisels that have SS mirrors on backs and
bevels.  The wood was scrap 1x6 nom. poplar.  I found that marking the
tails was awkward and difficult to get precise enough for tight joints.

The pins were cut with the saw held perpendicular to the plane of the
end of the board but angled from the planes of the edges of the board.
The tails, however, required the saw to be moved at an angle to the
plane of the end of the board.  I found this difficult to do.  I tried
angling the board in the vice to effect a cut perpendicular to the floor
but had little success.  Suggestions for technique improvements
welcomed?

After cutting and chopping out, I examined each board; pins seemed ok
with very little paring needed to split the layout lines, but tails were
nowhere near as close.  I ascribed this difficulty to the lack of a
reference line on the back of the cut for the tails and difficulty in
following the angle of the tails.

After several attempts, I made the following observation:  Layout for
the pins is easily done with bevel and square on the three surfaces to
be cut.  But, layout for the tails is done only on two of the surfaces
to be cut (unless someone can correct my technique and show me how to
carry the angle of the tail cut to the outside edge of the joint
accurately.

This means that I have 3 lines to use to guide the saw for pins and only
2 for tails.  What results is tails pins that look reasonably well done
and tails that have gaps.  The joints were all strong enough but
aesthetically unpleasant.

I would greatly appreciate and gratefully accept any and all advice.

Bob Hutchins
Central TX

Bob

Why not start with the tails? Then the angle cut is not an issue, a bit
of variation just adds to the charm. And you can make sure all relevant
cuts are at 90 degrees as a pin template. The rationale for starting
with the tails is that they are the more difficult to get right, but
this does not matter if you start with them. Of course the tails become
the template for the pins and _are never touched again_. All trimming is
done to the pins to get the final fit.

Starting with tails also fixes your marking out problem.

Cheers
Peter Evans
Sydney

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Hutchins <rhutch42@s...>
To: Old Tools List <OLDTOOLS@w...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 3:53 PM
Subject: Advice on cutting dovetails

> Esteemed GG's:
>
> I had my first go at cutting dovetails today.  I'm practicing for
their
> use in a tool box to be done soon.  I used Tage Frid's methods of
> marking and cutting pins first then marking tails from the cut pins.
I
> formed the angle by marking out 6 equal increments, etc.  I found that
I
> could cut the pins fairly well after a few tries but continued to have
> difficulty with the tails.
>
> I used a small DT saw of indeterminate origin (Thanks, Vlad, it cuts
> very well), a marking gauge and my pocket knife followed by a fine
> pencil line and blue Marples chisels that have SS mirrors on backs and
> bevels.  The wood was scrap 1x6 nom. poplar.  I found that marking the
> tails was awkward and difficult to get precise enough for tight
joints.
>
> The pins were cut with the saw held perpendicular to the plane of the
> end of the board but angled from the planes of the edges of the board.
> The tails, however, required the saw to be moved at an angle to the
> plane of the end of the board.  I found this difficult to do.  I tried
> angling the board in the vice to effect a cut perpendicular to the
floor
> but had little success.  Suggestions for technique improvements
> welcomed?
>
> After cutting and chopping out, I examined each board; pins seemed ok
> with very little paring needed to split the layout lines, but tails
were
> nowhere near as close.  I ascribed this difficulty to the lack of a
> reference line on the back of the cut for the tails and difficulty in
> following the angle of the tails.
>
> After several attempts, I made the following observation:  Layout for
> the pins is easily done with bevel and square on the three surfaces to
> be cut.  But, layout for the tails is done only on two of the surfaces
> to be cut (unless someone can correct my technique and show me how to
> carry the angle of the tail cut to the outside edge of the joint
> accurately.
>
> This means that I have 3 lines to use to guide the saw for pins and
only
> 2 for tails.  What results is tails pins that look reasonably well
done
> and tails that have gaps.  The joints were all strong enough but
> aesthetically unpleasant.
>
>
> I would greatly appreciate and gratefully accept any and all advice.
>
> Bob Hutchins
> Central TX
>
> --
> +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
> Private replies: rhutch42@s...
> Public replies:  OLDTOOLS@l...
> To signoff or digest: listserv@l...
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>

: -----Original Message-----
: From: owner-oldtools@l...
: [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Robert
: Hutchins
: Sent: 13 March 2002 04:53
: To: Old Tools List
: Subject: Advice on cutting dovetails
:
: ................................... Layout for
: the pins is easily done with bevel and square on the three surfaces to
: be cut.  But, layout for the tails is done only on two of the surfaces
: to be cut (unless someone can correct my technique and show me how to
: carry the angle of the tail cut to the outside edge of the joint
: accurately.

: This means that I have 3 lines to use to guide the saw for
: pins and only
: 2 for tails.

I think that most of us experience this difficulty. On my web site
(Dovetailing Detailed - Sawing Seminar) is a run-down on one approach
that starts the cut on the remote edge. This means that as you saw you
just have to watch the point of entry of the teeth into the wood,
following the line downwards until you reach the shoulder line.
(Starting on the front corner means that you have two such points to
watch - OK for the experienced). On the reverse face you then have a
partially complete cut. As you saw, observe the gap between the saw
plate and the arris on top edge of the job and try to keep the shadow
parallel. With a bit of luck the saw will not then drift off square.

I usually just pop my head to the other side of the job and continue the
cut, but some people might like to turn the work round and finish from
the other face. If you don't unduly force the saw, in completing the
remainder of the cut, it should tend to follow the line of least
resistance created by the first cut.

(It is a fact of dovetailing life that you mark accurately on the face
that is hidden when the job is assembled - see 'Tails or Pins First?').

Jeff

-- 
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Jeff@m...
http://www.millard.demon.co.uk/index.htm

A mirror behind the blind side also gives you a view of where you are
at.

Peter Evans
Sydney

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Gorman <Jeff@m...>
To: <rhutch42@s...>; Old Tools List
<OLDTOOLS@w...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: Advice on cutting dovetails

>
> I usually just pop my head to the other side of the job and continue
the
> cut, but some people might like to turn the work round and finish from
> the other face. If you don't unduly force the saw, in completing the
> remainder of the cut, it should tend to follow the line of least
> resistance created by the first cut.
>

--- Jeff Gorman <Jeff@m...> wrote:
> : This means that I have 3 lines to use to guide the saw for
> : pins and only
> : 2 for tails.
> 
> I usually just pop my head to the other side of the job and
> continue the
> cut, but some people might like to turn the work round and
> finish from
> the other face. If you don't unduly force the saw, in
> completing the
> remainder of the cut, it should tend to follow the line of
> least
> resistance created by the first cut.

Not liking to pop my head unnecessarily, I use a trick from one
of the magazines. An inspection mirror (metal stick + ball joint
+ mirror) fitted into a block of wood and placed on the bench
behind the work allows me to watch both sides. I got the mirror
at Sears in the automotive tools section. ASCII art follows:

       +--------+
   +-+O| MIRROR |
   | | |        |
   | | +--------+
   | |
+--+-+--+
|       |
|       |
+-------+

Steve - Kokomo galoot

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
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--- Steve Jones <stjones911@y...> wrote:
SNIP
> Not liking to pop my head unnecessarily, I use a trick from one
> of the magazines. An inspection mirror (metal stick + ball joint
> + mirror) fitted into a block of wood and placed on the bench
> behind the work allows me to watch both sides. I got the mirror
> at Sears in the automotive tools section. ASCII art follows:
SNIP

I stole a battery powered lighted makeup mirror from SWMBO.  One
side is a normal mirror the other magnifiying.  
Hey, I'm secure in my manhood.

Best

=====
Roger Nixon
Out in the Flint Hills of Kansas

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On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Robert Hutchins wrote:

> be cut.  But, layout for the tails is done only on two of the surfaces
> to be cut (unless someone can correct my technique and show me how to
> carry the angle of the tail cut to the outside edge of the joint
> accurately.

If the blade in the dovetail saw is mirror polished, or at least not
rusty, you can observe the reflection of the board end in the blade.

When the board end and its reflection in the blade are one straight line,
you're holding the saw at 90 degrees to the board.

You can just start sawing and there is no need to mark the other side of
the cut. There is even less need to use mirrors!

Eddie
Just say (TMPL) - I never had a problem with a rusty blade.

Adria Toolworks Inc. - High Quality Dovetail and Tenon saws
http://www.AdriaTools.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roger Nixon wrote:
> 
> --- Steve Jones <stjones911@y...> wrote:
> SNIP
> > Not liking to pop my head unnecessarily, I use a trick from one
> > of the magazines. An inspection mirror (metal stick + ball joint
> > + mirror) fitted into a block of wood and placed on the bench
> > behind the work allows me to watch both sides. I got the mirror
> > at Sears in the automotive tools section. ASCII art follows:
> SNIP
> 
> I stole a battery powered lighted makeup mirror from SWMBO.  One
> side is a normal mirror the other magnifiying.
> Hey, I'm secure in my manhood.

I used to use the mirror from a powder compact
until I bought a "real" inspection mirror.

Real handy when wiring hi-fi and TV's

	BugBear (equally secure)

I have lately been using a small wooden block about 2" tall to check my
vertical progress. Just slide it up against the saw now and then, with no
tension on the saw, and see how I am doing. A small correction in the
direction of the error brings me back in line.

I have been doing a lot of long ripping and found this to be a big help. I
check every couple of inches or progress. It is also a good excuse to take
a little break.

If you leave the block there when you are sawing, you may detect a
systematic sway in your sawing motion. For example, at the end of the back
swing you might move the handle to the left or right. This will affect the
line the saw takes on the far side of the wood. Over a few inches, the
deviation can become quite significant. I have been finding that a well
sharpened D8 cuts as fast and wanders a lot less than my frame saw (based
on 3 tpi bandsaw blade stock).

I imagine that for dovetails, a somewhat smaller block would work pretty
well on keeping the saw vertical.

Brent

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eddie Sirotich" <sirotic@b...>
> > be cut.  But, layout for the tails is done only on two of the surfaces
> > to be cut (unless someone can correct my technique and show me how to
> > carry the angle of the tail cut to the outside edge of the joint
> > accurately.
>
> If the blade in the dovetail saw is mirror polished, or at least not
> rusty, you can observe the reflection of the board end in the blade.
>
> When the board end and its reflection in the blade are one straight line,
> you're holding the saw at 90 degrees to the board.

Eddie Sirotich <sirotic@b...> wrote:
 > If the blade in the dovetail saw is mirror polished, or at least not
 > rusty, you can observe the reflection of the board end in the blade.
 >
 > When the board end and its reflection in the blade are one straight line,
 > you're holding the saw at 90 degrees to the board.

    Heh, heh.  I remember relaying the following "trick" (that I
accidentally stumbled upon while making my bench) at Tod's plane class.
   Both Tod and Ralph looked at me like I was nuts, but to their credit,
they didn't actually laugh.

    If you have an old saw that doesn't reflect anymore, whether due to
rust, or "patina", or whatever...  Try the following:

    Slather on a ton of paste wax.  Let it dry, but don't buff it off.
When dry, pull some hardwood scrap (oak and maple work well here) out of
your scrap bin and make several kerfs.  Wipe off any excess wax and I'll
bet you'll be surprised at how reflective things are...  Not mirror
finish, just a glossy coating that shows shadow lines better than rust,
"patina," or whatever...  It'll probably cut a little better as well ;)

    Now, I'm not claiming that this will turn an old rusty beater into a
Adria or IT saw, but it has made a few of my "well patinated" saws much
more useful.

Tad Anhalt
Des Moines, Ia.

Tad Anhalt wrote:
<<wax buffing trick snipped>>
> 
>     Now, I'm not claiming that this will turn an old rusty beater into a
> Adria or IT saw, but it has made a few of my "well patinated" saws much
> more useful.

Since my user saws ain't "rare" or historically important,
and because I have a deep wish to conform to British
stereotype, I polish my saw blades just as shiny as
I can get 'em.

And then I wax 'em anyway.

For those that care, the process is "medium grit" SiC
(around 400-800 on the European scale, depending on rust)
working up to 1000, followed by Chrome cleaning/polishing
paste on 0000 wire wool.

Does minimum damage to the steel, gives a very smooth, shiny surface.

	BugBear

paul womack wrote:

 > Since my user saws ain't "rare" or historically important,
 > and because I have a deep wish to conform to British
 > stereotype, I polish my saw blades just as shiny as
 > I can get 'em.

    Oh sure, that works too.  I figure that I'll be half way through the
rack 'o saws about the time that they cart me away to the graveyard.
Maybe when I retire from the electronic salt mines....

    In the meantime, I can buy a saw at the fleas and have it cutting
wood after a quick scraping/sanding of rust.  The really great part is
that I can slather wax on after sharpening and my test kerfs do the buffing.

Tad Anhalt
Des Moines, Ia.

>: -----Original Message-----
>: From: owner-oldtools@l...
>: [mailto:owner-oldtools@l...]On Behalf Of Robert
>: Hutchins
>: Sent: 13 March 2002 04:53
>: To: Old Tools List
>: Subject: Advice on cutting dovetails
>:
>: ................................... Layout for
>: the pins is easily done with bevel and square on the three surfaces to
>: be cut.  But, layout for the tails is done only on two of the surfaces
>: to be cut (unless someone can correct my technique and show me how to
>: carry the angle of the tail cut to the outside edge of the joint
>: accurately.
>
>: This means that I have 3 lines to use to guide the saw for
>: pins and only
>: 2 for tails.

I have to start with the disclaimers:
1) My dovetails ain't worth much, so I'm speaking from inexperience
2) I fully the support every galoot's right to use whatever weird work
practices they want.

OK.  I'm shocked by all the hoo-ha about cutting to a line that's, let's
face it about an inch long most of the time.  Ripping a five-foot board in
a straight line is hard, but there's gotta be something wrong if we have to
worry about a saw wandering over a distance of an inch (in my case there
*is* something wrong - my technique sucks).  I don't want to belittle all
the agony we're going through trying to get that tiny little line straight
- I'm going through it too!  But I just can't believe that marking out a
gazillion lines and using mirrors to look at all of them is the answer.
There's overwhelming evidence for the following:
1. Nearly anyone can do it
2. Nearly anyone can do it without a mirror
3. Nearly anyone can do it without a line on the backside of the board.

Now back to finding a chicken to sacrifice - and where's my lucky Elbonian
marking gauge? ;-)

Jaime Metcher

Oh, one last post, then I'm going to fall down from hypoglycemia and
nurse my bloody thumb knuckles (trimming 1/8" mahogany plywood..)

1. Get a pair of Lee Valley layout templates for dovetailing. One for
   softwood, a steeper one for hardwoods. Very cheap.

2. Get a "double square" in the 2-inch range. Great size for carrying
   the lines across board ends. Lee Valley also sells one for
   woodworkers (and no, they don't give me a commission...)

I layout both pins and tails at the same time. I usually cut the pins
first, and trim them first, but I trim both for a final fit.

3. I never saw to the line. Leave 1/16". With a line drawn across the
   edge of the board, it's dead easy to pare the excess with a chisel.
   Looking down on the edge of the board, and steadying the chisel with
   both hands, it's one slice straight down. And you've got three
   reference lines to do it with. No need for mirrors. One caveat
   (that's latin, Jeff). Watch the grain. Sometimes it just wants to
   split. Especially white pine near a knot. Work from the side there if
   you see it start to go.

4. For both pins and tails, clamp a 1" thick by whatever piece of
   jointed stock to get a straight edge, and use that to steady the
   chisel at 90deg. when you finish the bottoms of the cuts. Both pins
   and tails.

A final tip. Lovely thing about hide glue. When you dovetail walnut
to white pine, guess what fills tiny tiny gaps and is the exact
colour of walnut?

Forgive me. Must get food. It's been fun.

Matt ("we can make damn near anything in our shop...except money")